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View Full Version : Hawaii - Victim robbed, and then arrested.


Funtimes
02-28-2012, 12:37 AM
A report of a car break-in at a Honolulu shopping center led to the owner of the vehicle being arrested on firearms offenses.

It happened yesterday just before five o'clock in the afternoon.

http://www.khon2.com/news/local/story/Car-break-in-at-shopping-center-leads-to-firearms/GPyOQmMjTkGpkWDFbU2a4A.cspx


The sad part of this is during my firearm training classes I actually tell our students to not stop anywhere between point A and point B, for this exact reason. I was told I am crazy -- but here we now have the proof.

Funtimes
02-28-2012, 1:42 AM
In line with our statute, here are a few other things I think would get someone in trouble that may be unavoidable:

There are already a few situations off my head that people easily do:

Stopping to change a baby, feed a baby.
Going to the airport.
Goign to ship a package from UPS / USPS / FEDEX.
Picking up a gun from said place.
Gassing up a car.
Using the restroom (easily done at any McDonalds, Walmart or other store; I know at least these are the types of places *I* look for if I need to use a bathroom).
Stopping for oil, air in tire, change of tire.


What do you guys think?

E Pluribus Unum
02-28-2012, 2:14 AM
He had a shotgun on the back seat in plain view; that is just stupid and irresponsible.

What if a felon had stolen that gun and then used it to kill someone, or rob them? What if it were your family member he shot, or robbed?

Funtimes
02-28-2012, 2:20 AM
He had a shotgun on the back seat in plain view; that is just stupid and irresponsible.

What if a felon had stolen that gun and then used it to kill someone, or rob them? What if it were your family member he shot, or robbed?

To be honest, I believe its misreporting. It's probably more like he had a shotgun in plain view.

Regardless, I grew up in Mississippi - my principal stopped a school shooting by grabbing the long gun that was on his gun rack in his truck, uncovered, with no problems. What would the big deal be?

Police officers routinely park their vehicles with guns in plain view; Do you have the same opinion of them? We have had [I]numerous officers get their guns and select fire rifles stolen from their vehicles. What if I had guns in plain view in my home, like a gun cabinet or laying on the table. Is it my fault that a criminal breaks the law to take my legally owned property? What if the felon stole the car and hit and killed someone (/panic)?

E Pluribus Unum
02-28-2012, 2:28 AM
To be honest, I believe its misreporting. It's probably more like he had a shotgun in plain view.

Regardless, I grew up in Mississippi - my principal stopped a school shooting by grabbing the long gun that was on his gun rack in his truck, uncovered, with no problems. What would the big deal be?

Police officers routinely park their vehicles with guns in plane view; Do you have the same opinion of them? We have had [I]numerous officers get their guns and select fire rifles stolen from their vehicles. What if I had guns in plain view in my home, like a gun cabinet or laying on the table. Is it my fault that a criminal breaks the law to take my legally owned property? What if the felon stole the car and hit and killed someone (/panic)?

Police do not leave unattended, unlocked firearms in their vehicles. The guns in the racks require keys, or remote push buttons to be released. Criminals breaking into your home can't see the firearms from public property.... come on, your examples are terribly out of context and you know it. Leaving a shotgun in the back seat of a car in plain view at a mall is a whole lot different than any of your "examples".

I live in Kern County; I am no stranger to the gun rack. Shoot... I farmed for several years and had loaded guns in the gun rack for quick access; that's on a farm.

I can even see driving around with long guns in plain sight; I do that on occasion today. Leaving an unattended firearm in plain view is reckless at best and approaches criminally negligent.

wayneinFL
02-28-2012, 5:02 AM
Yeah, guns in police cars are really secure. Twice last week criminals stole the entire car:

http://www.tremcopoliceproducts.com/richmondca.html
http://www.tremcopoliceproducts.com/sanbernardinoca.html


Here's another one, where they got a badge and gun from the car:
http://www.tremcopoliceproducts.com/san_jacintoCA.htm

Last few years we've had a couple of stories make the news over here. One, the police chief of one city had a car stolen along with a select fire rifle and a couple of other guns. North of me, a teen stole a pistol from a sheriff's deputy's car and shot a friend by accident. Natural selection, if you ask me. Too bad he couldn't have gotten both of them.

IMO, the biggest problem here is that we tolerate property crime. I'm sick and tired of crime victims being blamed for what criminals do. Catch the bastards and put them in jail.

Whiskey84
02-28-2012, 6:02 AM
He had a shotgun on the back seat in plain view; that is just stupid and irresponsible.

What if a felon had stolen that gun and then used it to kill someone, or rob them? What if it were your family member he shot, or robbed?

What if we law-abiding citizens were allowed to be armed for our defense against criminals with stolen weapons?!? :rolleyes:

Won't somebody think of the children? :willy_nilly:

CitaDeL
02-28-2012, 7:43 AM
Police do not leave unattended, unlocked firearms in their vehicles. The guns in the racks require keys, or remote push buttons to be released. Criminals breaking into your home can't see the firearms from public property.... come on, your examples are terribly out of context and you know it. Leaving a shotgun in the back seat of a car in plain view at a mall is a whole lot different than any of your "examples".

I live in Kern County; I am no stranger to the gun rack. Shoot... I farmed for several years and had loaded guns in the gun rack for quick access; that's on a farm.

I can even see driving around with long guns in plain sight; I do that on occasion today. Leaving an unattended firearm in plain view is reckless at best and approaches criminally negligent.

Sorry to heap on your easily disproven assertion, but yes, police frequently leave firearms in unattended vehicles. the level of security is pretty much irrelevant as any measure can be defeated with the correct knowledge and tools.

Here is a recent story for your reading pleasure.

http://www.redding.com/news/2012/feb/15/3-arrested-after-sheriffs-deputys-truck-burgled/


As to the firearms related charges... I wonder how the police can charge for a crime where the fruit of the crime is not present.

In other words if the victim is being charged for improper storage or transportation of a firearm, how can they charge if they could not themselves witness the improper storage or transportation of a firearm because it was not there?

In context, the police are taking the statement of the victim as a confession, but if the victim was making a false police report (and his firearms were not stolen and the firearms were never there), he is being arrested for something without having fulfilled the elements of the crime.

taperxz
02-28-2012, 8:03 AM
Honolulu PD is so screwed up! Just last week on Kuhio I heard a Cop tell a vendor, "you know, I can take you to jail for parking here". Honolulu goes to the beat of a different world. There are signs up in north shore telling people how Hawaii is not part of the US

proclone1
02-28-2012, 9:21 AM
Honolulu PD is so screwed up! Just last week on Kuhio I heard a Cop tell a vendor, "you know, I can take you to jail for parking here". Honolulu goes to the beat of a different world. There are signs up in north shore telling people how Hawaii is not part of the US

If natives are so tough, why dont they just take their land back. Instead they just beat on hapless drunken tourists. Real tough bros.

E Pluribus Unum
02-28-2012, 9:34 AM
If natives are so tough, why dont they just take their land back. Instead they just beat on hapless drunken tourists. Real tough bros.

Don't you watch Hawaii 5-o?

Flopper
02-28-2012, 3:22 PM
He had a shotgun on the back seat in plain view; that is just stupid and irresponsible.

What if a felon had stolen that gun and then used it to kill someone, or rob them? What if it were your family member he shot, or robbed?

Nice appeal to emotion; logic fail.

The gun owner is not in the wrong. We are NOT our "brothers' keepers."

dantodd
02-28-2012, 3:29 PM
Lots of fail in this thread.

If we assume that the (very short) article is accurate.
1) The guns were locked in the car.
2) the shotgun was still in the car when PD responded, only the handguns were stolen.

SilverTauron
02-28-2012, 3:44 PM
The citizen had a shotgun in his vehicle, so thus he is a criminal in a worse way than the theif, who was merely redistributing resources for the greater good of the Hawaiian Progressive Society. Ownership of a firearm suggests moral decay on the part of the owner, thus the robbery victim presented a greater threat to society than the theif. Excellent police work eh, comrades?

vantec08
02-28-2012, 3:50 PM
He had a shotgun on the back seat in plain view; that is just stupid and irresponsible.

What if a felon had stolen that gun and then used it to kill someone, or rob them? What if it were your family member he shot, or robbed?


Maybe .. . . . but it does not rise to level of "criminal" and arrest. THAT is just plain stupid and irresponsible.

Arondos
02-28-2012, 4:25 PM
I should be able to leave things in my car, not lock it and they should be there when I come back. Unfortunately there are people who have no respect for others so I can't do that. But it hardly makes me responsible for their actions.

I am sick of hearing excuses instead of personal accountability. Blame the CRIMINAL not the VICTIM.

scarville
02-28-2012, 8:03 PM
Blame the victim has a long and infamous history. I remember a brief campaign of public service ads back in the '60's picturing some car keys and the slogan, "Don't help a good boy go bad."

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=5bZWAAAAIBAJ&sjid=NukDAAAAIBAJ&pg=320,323920&img=1&zoom=3&hl=en&sig=ACfU3U0Uyx1KzPlBoWLjZakiuZ-zL2JbnA

It didn't last long because, in the once upon a time, people understood the difference between a criminal and his victim.

50BMGBOB
02-28-2012, 10:21 PM
Police do not leave unattended, unlocked firearms in their vehicles. The guns in the racks require keys, or remote push buttons to be released.

Not to long ago there where a few cases where AR's where taken out of locked Police cars with no more than a prybar to break open the locked rack in the car. Right off a street in Walnut Creek and at at least two different Police yards.

Locks ony keep honest people honest. Criminals will be criminals. Quit blaming the victim.

Pantheragem
02-29-2012, 1:05 AM
I was at a Carls Jr. in Elk Grove one time when a plain-clothes cop (detective? I don't know....) showed his badge and started asking if anyone had turned in a gun. Apparently he had left it in the booth where he had been eating. It was amusing, but scary.

CBlacksheep
02-29-2012, 2:02 AM
Way to go, five oh. Jail the victim for enabling the criminal. Effective crime fighting at its very best.

lhecker51
02-29-2012, 12:36 PM
He had a shotgun on the back seat in plain view; that is just stupid and irresponsible.

What if a felon had stolen that gun and then used it to kill someone, or rob them? What if it were your family member he shot, or robbed?

What if he stole the car and ran down by-standers during the high speed pursuit? Blame the evil intent of the criminal, not the choice of their tools.

SilverTauron
02-29-2012, 12:41 PM
I find it humorous that people on this forum think locking a firearm= security.

Any lock can and will be bypassed if the criminal has a brain cell to work with. All the cretin must do is bust in with a brick, take the locked firearm, and call a gunsmith saying he lost the key to his own weapon. So much for "security".

Even gun owners who have bought and 'secured' their weapons within gunsafes have had them stolen out of their homes. Would we then suggest that the homeowner was negligent for not building a lead reinforced vault with DNA acess?

AJAX22
02-29-2012, 12:46 PM
The so called "locked" rack in a police car is wired to a pushbutton which is in plain sight and easily accessable. (its not all that 'remote')

It varries somewhat but there are only a handfull of places it can be.





Police do not leave unattended, unlocked firearms in their vehicles. The guns in the racks require keys, or remote push buttons to be released. Criminals breaking into your home can't see the firearms from public property.... come on, your examples are terribly out of context and you know it. Leaving a shotgun in the back seat of a car in plain view at a mall is a whole lot different than any of your "examples".

I live in Kern County; I am no stranger to the gun rack. Shoot... I farmed for several years and had loaded guns in the gun rack for quick access; that's on a farm.

I can even see driving around with long guns in plain sight; I do that on occasion today. Leaving an unattended firearm in plain view is reckless at best and approaches criminally negligent.

Wherryj
03-01-2012, 9:18 AM
He had a shotgun on the back seat in plain view; that is just stupid and irresponsible.

What if a felon had stolen that gun and then used it to kill someone, or rob them? What if it were your family member he shot, or robbed?

This isn't really the issue. If a family member was shot, it wasn't because some guy left the gun in his car where it could be stolen. It is because the predator who stole it would have shot someone with a firearm no matter where or how he obtained it.

Wherryj
03-01-2012, 9:48 AM
I find it humorous that people on this forum think locking a firearm= security.

Any lock can and will be bypassed if the criminal has a brain cell to work with. All the cretin must do is bust in with a brick, take the locked firearm, and call a gunsmith saying he lost the key to his own weapon. So much for "security".

Even gun owners who have bought and 'secured' their weapons within gunsafes have had them stolen out of their homes. Would we then suggest that the homeowner was negligent for not building a lead reinforced vault with DNA acess?

This is not only true, it is important to remember. A gun safe is only there to make theft more difficult, not impossible. It is also imperative to do everything you can to make that delay such that the criminal will move on to someone else.

Safes MUST be securely bolted to floor and wall studs or they can be quickly walked out of the house for cracking at leisure. Monitored alarm systems are highly recommended because they give an urgency to the theft-hopefully enough urgency that the thief will leave before even attempting to break in.

The issue isn't whether something stolen from someone else was "responsibly" secured. In an ideal world all possessions could be unlocked and in plain view. In our less than ideal world even those that are hidden and locked can be taken. It is the thief that is responsible for any ill deeds done with stolen items.

Responsibility has more to do with securing your firearms such that non-criminal types can't get ahold of your firearms. It is negligent to allow your children or their friends to access your weapons. This can lead to serious accidents. You can't really keep your firearms securely out of the reach of a determined criminal.

ccmc
03-01-2012, 9:52 AM
I grew up in Mississippi - my principal stopped a school shooting by grabbing the long gun that was on his gun rack in his truck, uncovered, with no problems. What would the big deal be?

Was that in Pearl? I thought it was a .45 APC handgun he retrieved from his vehicle and stopped the shooting with.

bohoki
03-01-2012, 1:29 PM
"place to keep" well i guess its your resposibility to know the local laws

VaderSpade
03-01-2012, 2:15 PM
Yeah, guns in police cars are really secure. Twice last week criminals stole the entire car:


I went on a ride along last year and the officers AR kept falling out of the rack. The lock was broken, and he just said I need to fix that.
The lock was not very good in the first place. If you could break into the car you could get a cops guns. Locks only keep the honest people out.

510dat
03-02-2012, 9:01 AM
Moral of the story: Don't tell Honolulu Police that your gun was stolen, or you're likely to be arrested.

vantec08
03-02-2012, 9:17 AM
We need criminal control. Gun control isnt working.

boxcab
03-02-2012, 10:01 AM
He had a shotgun on the back seat in plain view; that is just stupid and irresponsible.

What if a felon had stolen that gun and then used it to kill someone, or rob them? What if it were your family member he shot, or robbed?

What if a felon had stolen that car and then used it to kill someone, or rob them? What if it were your family member he ran over, or crippled?

Same?

bwiese
03-02-2012, 10:21 AM
The sad part of this is during my firearm training classes I actually tell our students to not stop anywhere between point A and point B, for this exact reason. I was told I am crazy -- but here we now have the proof.

1. You are crazy, there's no 'specific destination' rule except for AWs.
Hawaii laws are different than CA's.

2. Please ensure you actually are teaching correct info to your students.
This stops FUD.

readysetgo
03-02-2012, 10:35 AM
1. You are crazy, there's no 'specific destination' rule except for AWs.
Hawaii laws are different than CA's.

2. Please ensure you actually are teaching correct info to your students.
This stops FUD.

^^^ This! I thought I was missing something the OP was trying to convey.

E Pluribus Unum
03-02-2012, 11:33 AM
What if a felon had stolen that gun and then used it to kill someone, or rob them? What if it were your family member he shot, or robbed?

What if a felon had stolen that car and then used it to kill someone, or rob them? What if it were your family member he ran over, or crippled?

Same?


No... not the same... a felon can legally acquire a car; a felon cannot legally acquire a firearm. We all know that criminals will obtain arms, one way or another; the only thing the supply does is effect the street price of the firearm.

If a felon purchases a stolen firearm from another felon, though bad, it does not effect the supply/demand curve. Any time a lawfully-owned firearm makes that transition to being an illegal firearm, it adds another weapon to the street arsenal and increases exponentially the likelihood that gun will be used in a crime.

Gun crime is the ONLY real quasi-legitimate ammunition the anti-gunners have; the more of it there is, the more the uninformed will believe we need to restrict them. So, by being irresponsible and allowing your guns to be vulnerable to theft, you in essence increase the likelihood that the gun grabbers will have more ammo to lobby the ignorant to their cause.

socal2310
03-02-2012, 10:28 PM
1. You are crazy, there's no 'specific destination' rule except for AWs.
Hawaii laws are different than CA's.

2. Please ensure you actually are teaching correct info to your students.
This stops FUD.

That's funny. Those comments were so far "out there" that I assumed OP was talking about what he taught students in a firearms class he taught in Hawaii.

That's okay, the hunter's safety instructor at Blueline ammo (Ventura, CA) was lecturing about the incident a couple of years ago where someone's leather Galco holster ended up with a bend in it that fit into the trigger guard (incidentally, four people I know from three different states claimed that this incident was referring to a friend of theirs:http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQb9-l771kCBMdDxPQoUefNBIfmSOtxeeS_oEAa-vTeSqNWaHwd1MBg1nv8). I didn't bother arguing with him when he told me that the fundamental reason the accident happened was because the firearm was loaded:rolleyes:.

No, I don't recall specifically how that related to Hunter's Safety...

Ryan

Stoner
03-02-2012, 11:37 PM
[134-24] Place to keep unloaded firearms other than pistols and revolvers; penalty. (a) Except as provided in section 134-5, all firearms shall be confined to the possessor's place of business, residence, or sojourn; provided that it shall be lawful to carry unloaded firearms in an enclosed container from the place of purchase to the purchaser's place of business, residence, or sojourn, or between these places upon change of place of business, residence, or sojourn, or between these places and the following:

(1) A place of repair;

(2) A target range;

(3) A licensed dealer's place of business;

(4) An organized, scheduled firearms show or exhibit;

(5) A place of formal hunter or firearm use training or instruction; or

(6) A police station.

"Enclosed container" means a rigidly constructed receptacle, or a commercially manufactured gun case, or the equivalent thereof that completely encloses the firearm.
(b) Any person violating this section by carrying or possessing an unloaded firearm other than a pistol or revolver shall be guilty of a class C felony. [L 2006, c 66, pt of 1]


Guess a car does not qualify as a closed container.

Zimz
03-03-2012, 9:21 AM
He had a shotgun on the back seat in plain view; that is just stupid and irresponsible.

What if a felon had stolen that gun and then used it to kill someone, or rob them? What if it were your family member he shot, or robbed?

Listen to what you just wrote. If you didn't have 7k+ posts I would accuse you of being a troll. I didn't think we, being liberty loving gun owners succumbed to "what if" and "think of the innocents" games.

Yeah it's usually not smart to leave a long gun in the open, but you cross the line with that "criminal negligance" bit. That's Bradyish

E Pluribus Unum
03-03-2012, 6:33 PM
If you didn't have 7k+ posts I would accuse you of being a troll. I didn't think we, being liberty loving gun owners succumbed to "what if" and "think of the innocents" games.

I've been accused of worse...


Yeah it's usually not smart to leave a long gun in the open, but you cross the line with that "criminal negligance" bit. That's Bradyish

I'd rather be called a troll. The only real "trollish" behavior is twisting what I said.

Here is what I actually said:

Leaving an unattended firearm in plain view is reckless at best and approaches criminally negligent.

Obviously, it would be criminally negligent to park a flat bed pickup with loaded firearms in it at a mental institution.

Just because we are gun nuts doesn't mean we throw out all common sense with regards to what we SHOULD do. While I do not think his actions constituted a crime, I believe it is on, or at least very near the line of what should be legal. If that makes me "Bradyish", or "Trollish" in your eyes, then so be it.

Funtimes
03-03-2012, 11:40 PM
1. You are crazy, there's no 'specific destination' rule except for AWs.
Hawaii laws are different than CA's.

Um... what? Our laws here in Hawaii specifically say between place A and place B. But a bunch of Hawaii dealers and other people have tried to say otherwise. I never said anything about California laws. And, I don't think anyone did, until you posted about it. Please elaborate and explain how I am crazy.


2. Please ensure you actually are teaching correct info to your students.
This stops FUD.

Again, what are you talking about? I'm pretty sure I understand Hawai'i laws better than most. How am I teaching the wrong stuff? The things I am telling students NOT to do is exactly what this guy just caught 3 felony charges over -- so what was your point?

I mean if you didn't notice, I don't exactly teach in California :).

JeremyKX
03-04-2012, 11:50 AM
Yeah, guns in police cars are really secure. Twice last week criminals stole the entire car:

http://www.tremcopoliceproducts.com/richmondca.html
http://www.tremcopoliceproducts.com/sanbernardinoca.html


Here's another one, where they got a badge and gun from the car:
http://www.tremcopoliceproducts.com/san_jacintoCA.htm

Last few years we've had a couple of stories make the news over here. One, the police chief of one city had a car stolen along with a select fire rifle and a couple of other guns. North of me, a teen stole a pistol from a sheriff's deputy's car and shot a friend by accident. Natural selection, if you ask me. Too bad he couldn't have gotten both of them.

IMO, the biggest problem here is that we tolerate property crime. I'm sick and tired of crime victims being blamed for what criminals do. Catch the bastards and put them in jail.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VA0BLgY7yg