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View Full Version : Who would you go shooting with???


jbush
02-26-2012, 2:32 AM
The question came up in one of the other forums, about what age a child could be taught to shoot a 22. It can down to maturity of the child, ability to focus and take instruction and follow them. Then I got thinking, I know adults who shoot that don't meet those requirements.

I'm pretty selective who I go shooting with anymore. I have friends and people at work who are extremely responsible, shoot in competitions and my kids grew up having gun saftey pounded into their heads. No problems shooting with these people.

Then I got thinking about the ones I won't go with and how I decided this.

Example 1: My neighbor, plinks with a 22 in the hills and is always telling me that people leave unbroken clays out there. So he walks them out about 150 yds and shoots away at the clays. He has a Marlin 795 with iron sights shooting the cheapest bulk ammo he can get. 150 yds??????? Reality?????

Next: The guy at work who talks about his collection of home defense weapons and goes to the desert maybe once a year to shoot them? He also told me he learned to shoot with a 22. According to him, he would stand on a hilltop and his dad would set up cans on the next hilltop about 200 yds away. 22 rifle, iron sights, 200 yds.??????

#3: the guy at work who has a preban AR and goes to the desert twice a year and shoots up all the cans and bottles he can with 500 rounds in about 3 or 4 hrs. He also strikes me as the guy that when the ammos gone, he's done and all his cans, bottles, and empty casings stay in the desert, then complains that they keep closing down shooting areas.

How do you decide???????????????????????????????????????????? ???

voiceofreason
02-26-2012, 7:07 AM
Either,

1. They can safely handle a firearm already

or

2. They will follow my commands as a range safety officer when I give them (in regards to safety)

--------

If they don't meet one of the two requirements above, then I will NOT shoot with them.

I was at an indoor range just a week ago. The guys next to me were hip shooting an AK.

At least one of the rounds hit a metal hangar or something and a small bit of metal shrapnel hit my arm. No penetration through the shirt, but left a tiny, tiny welt. Stung more than a Simunition round.

Needless to say, I left immediately. Sucked that it ended my session with a few people I was enjoying shooting with.

The range DID talk to them after my friend reported it, but I deemed it unwise to continue being in close proximity to those morons.

SanPedroShooter
02-26-2012, 7:09 AM
Anyone that wants to go...?

dieselpower
02-26-2012, 7:32 AM
I will go shooting with anyone. If at that time they choose to violate some rule I have and refuse to not violate it, that will be the last time. If its a safety or legal thing, I will leave immediately. If its a personal rule, I will just not invite them or turn down an offer from them. I was with an experienced hunter who was told by several people in the group NOT to take a shot on a deer and he ignored us, took the shot, wounded the deer and forced us all to track it down. The three of us decided we will not be asking him back next year. I don't mind tracking a deer, but as a personal rule I don't shoot with the EXPECTATION TO TRACK AFTERWARD. He does. If its a hard shot, he aims for the gut which he says allows the best blood trail.

I have another buddy who is an experience shooter, two tour combat Marine who polishes his Federal Bulk ammo with cheese cloth for better grouping... He takes 2 minute breaks in between shots to "calm his breathing down"...I am thinking of a word...it comes before RETENTIVE.... I still invite him any time I can. :D

I understand some people treat shooting as a religious thing, its just shooting to me. I might be one of those guys you don't want to go shooting with.

1) I'll police my brass, WHEN I CAN, I will not devote more than a few minutes searching the brush for it.

2) I will not fire over a hill, but I will fire at game in thick brush or where the back drop is obsucrd...such as if deer is at the edge of a field of trees and I can not see into the trees. Could someone be hiding on the other side of that deer...sure. Its a risk both I and other hunters take. Its the first thing that comes into my mind when I see deer..."who else is looking at this deer and where are they".

3) I will shoot at debris left bu others and not haul away that trash. I have seen old refrigerators in the field and shot at it, old cars, clays, 55 gallon barrels. Just cuz I shoot it doesn't mean I own it. I know people out there who think I am wrong and I am part of the problem. If you ask me not to shoot at it, I will honor that request.

4) I carry a Glock with one in the pipe..many people don't like hiking with me for that reason. There is a possibility a sea gull will swoop down pull the firearm from my holster, drop it on the trigger in some brush and it will shoot and kill someone...or something like that. If you don't like hiking with a person who carries a loaded glock...dont go hiking with me.

5) On that same note, some guys carry African style, some carry military style, some carry American style. If one of those bugs you, tell them. I have no real preferance...some guys do and will refuse to carry muzzle down or muzzle up...some guys only have a single point. I may ask a person to not keep one in the pipe, but it depends on the person.

6) I know the hunting course tells you to either place the rifle on the other side and climb over the obstacle, or hand the rifle to another person and climb over the obstacle, then pass the rifles over... once again...I am thinking of a word...it comes before retentive... not every obstacle you encounter can be or should be treated like this.

We all have our short comings and we all have our "things". I do my best to just have fun and not worry too much about things. Once again...safety and legal objections are treated different.

voiceofreason
02-26-2012, 7:58 AM
Bush and voice or reason, you both need to get off you high horse.

Voice of reason, you sound a little stuck up or have control issues. If you really are a range officer, yo should know that people shoot from many different experience levels and also for different reasons. As a"expert" you should be a good example and engage these folks in a positive manner to educate them.

.....but then again it is easier to just pass judgement on others than to lead.


Hi,

Yes, I AM stuck up. I refuse to risk my life or personal injury because somebody can't or won't follow basic safety rules.

I do not work at a range professionally, am not a professional firearms instructor, am not an "expert", and I WOULD rather pass judgement than lead in regards to shooting with people that are unable or unwilling to follow basic safety rules.

There are plenty of people that ARE willing to following directions/safety rules that I have been more than happy to shoot with/introduce shooting to.

Those individuals that disregard the safety of themselves and those around them whether by choice or inability... can learn WHY the basic rules are important through a training course, other friends, range officers yelling at them, or experience.

If at all possible, not around me or my friends/loved ones.

And I always wear soft armor when shooting.

If that is being "stuck up", then yes, I am.

dieselpower
02-26-2012, 9:07 AM
^ But will you refuse to go shooting with me because I...
1) I carry a Glock in condition 1...or
2) I carry my AR muzzle up...or
3) I don't wear soft armor..or
4) I climb over fences and rock walls without first placing my rifle on the other side..or
5) I shoot at game in a Field when behind that game is a tree line in which i can not see into or past.

Thats the question... where do your safety rules start and where do they end. We all have them to a degree and to what degree is what this OP is about.

Rhythm of Life
02-26-2012, 9:11 AM
I refuse to risk my life or personal injury because somebody can't or won't follow basic safety rules.

Your name makes sense.

voiceofreason
02-26-2012, 9:27 AM
1) I carry a Glock in condition 1...or
2) I carry my AR muzzle up...or
3) I don't wear soft armor..or
4) I climb over fences and rock walls without first placing my rifle on the other side..or
5) I shoot at game in a Field when behind that game is a tree line in which i can not see into or past.

Thats the question... where do your safety rules start and where do they end.

----

I'm good with the general safety rules taught pretty much everywhere.

1. Condition 1 is the way Glocks are meant to be carried.

-Unless you're Israeli.


2. Doesn't matter whether you carry your long gun up or down as long as the manual safety is engaged and it's either pointed toward sky or ground (or at the very least away from anyone considered a friendly).

-Who do you think you are? Delta a la Blackhawk Down?


3. Very few people I shoot with wear any armor at all. My FRIENDS make fun of me. I'm used to it and laugh about it along with them. The last line I heard a week ago was, "Be careful, you might get shot in the arm!"

-I truly believe that soft armor will become "normal" to own and use regularly over time. The cost is about the same as a new handgun. People will buy 10+ handguns, but one ballistic vest + 9 handguns might be a better value over time.


4. See #2.


5. That's YOUR decision, not mine.

-Give you a dollar if you can hit that orange dot bobbing around in the treeline.

den888
02-26-2012, 9:46 AM
I only shoot with safety minded shooters. The consequences can be severe if you don't.

jbush
02-26-2012, 9:53 AM
Bush and voice or reason, you both need to get off you high horse and think this through.

Bush, the people you mention probably do exagerate some but does that make them bad people? Maybe because they only go once a year, they don't have enough real experience to make factual statements. These are exactly the people you should be taking out and exposing to "good shooting" experiences and practices.

Voice of reason, If you really are a range officer, you should know that people shoot from many different experience levels and also for different reasons. As a"expert" you should be a good example and engage these folks in a positive manner to educate them. Maybe they are not familiar with how to hold and shoot a pistol properly.

The kind of people you both mention are the exact people we should be "shooting with" as they obviously own firearms and as a family, we must police ourselves looking out for and educating each other.

.....but then again it is easier to just pass judgement on others than to lead.



I have no issue taking the lead and teaching a newcomer basic safety. But, I form a judgement in my mind about a person and whether they are trainable of not. I feel my neighbors attention span is way to short to concentrate on his own safety much less mine, and the others they are just way out in left field. My son in law had never shot a gun, I took him with me, because, 1. He's really level headed and is willing to learn 2. I wanted another shooting partner if he liked it. Just not willing to risk my safety if I'm not comfortable with that person in general day to day activities.

Rob454
02-26-2012, 9:54 AM
I think there are a lot of people who are hell bent on being anal retentive about safety rules and like to show how safe they are by making everyone feel inferior to their superior safety prowess. Nothing wrong with being safe but there is a point where you surpass the gun safety aspect and you just became a range nazi a-hole. A totalitarian mindset after a while becomes what most consider a crazy person. i am sure plenty of us were at ranges and were perfectly safe but the range master did not like something and decided to "show his power as range master". I am positive that none of you are safe 100% of the time( no matter what you think) I mean at that point I think you can walk on water and part the sea. Nobody is safe 100% of the time. Some of the worse offernders are peopel who carry guns for a living. I have a buddy who is one of the most retentive people when it comes to guns. he had a AD when hunting with me. I never stopped giving him crap over it when he brings up safety. None of us are perfect and the ones who think they are are the most imperfect.
Most gun safety rules are common sense. last night i carried my pistol up the stairs with the finger int he trigger guard. 1/2 way up the stairs I realized and slid my finger out along the slide. so yes that was considered unsafe. i caught my mistake but it was still unsafe.

My question to the others is how come you don't say anything to the person being unsafe rather than packing up your stuff and going home?

only10x
02-26-2012, 9:56 AM
whichever you believe has the most respect for firearms.

dieselpower
02-26-2012, 10:01 AM
^ I didn't know Israel had manual safety levers on Glocks, I thought that was France who asked Glock to install those. Either way, I have been asked by people to unload my chamber before we hike, for fear something will reach into my holster and pull the trigger.

The muzzle direction is a safety violation to many people. They feel the safety lever isn't good enough and the rifle must point down at all times. Therefore over the shoulder muzzle up American carry style is a no-no...its African carry muzzle down or patrol style muzzle down or its again a no-no no-go.

BassNut
02-26-2012, 10:10 AM
I am VERY selective on who I shoot or hunt with. Basically I have a few close friends/hunting buddies that I will shoot or hunt with. Other than that, I will only shoot/hunt with my own kids and a few cousins and nephews.

I'm talking about an uncontrolled environment BTW. I have no problem going to a well ran shooting range such as Sac Valley shooting center.

voiceofreason
02-26-2012, 10:52 AM
^ I didn't know Israel had manual safety levers on Glocks, I thought that was France who asked Glock to install those. Either way, I have been asked by people to unload my chamber before we hike, for fear something will reach into my holster and pull the trigger.

If the holster is stiff and covers the trigger guard, there should be no issues provided it STAYS in the holster until consciously drawn.

Israeli carry is where the gun is carried in Condition 3, and the slide is racked from position 3 while pushing out to position 4.

It is fast and works great when you have 2 hands available, but I question the reliability of this technique vs. simply carrying Condition 1.

redcliff
02-26-2012, 10:53 AM
I have no issue taking the lead and teaching a newcomer basic safety. But, I form a judgement in my mind about a person and whether they are trainable of not. I feel my neighbors attention span is way to short to concentrate on his own safety much less mine, and the others they are just way out in left field. My son in law had never shot a gun, I took him with me, because, 1. He's really level headed and is willing to learn 2. I wanted another shooting partner if he liked it. Just not willing to risk my safety if I'm not comfortable with that person in general day to day activities.

I think this is very reasonable approach and I do the same thing.

It has nothing to do with being AR or trying to be superior to people, its the fact that safety should be everyone's concern and the consequences of not following the safety rules can be life-ending.

New shooters don't know what they don't know about safety. It's our job to guide them and ensure their shooting experience is a safe one for everyone involved.

voiceofreason
02-26-2012, 10:56 AM
My question to the others is how come you don't say anything to the person being unsafe rather than packing up your stuff and going home?

1. I don't know them. They're strangers to me, as I am to them. I also have no authority over them in any manner.

2. They are holding a gun.

3. They may not be receptive to "help", and the situation may escalate to something bad. I try to avoid such situations.

4. This took place at a proper range. The rangemaster was notified and they received a brief safety lecture.

5. If the people seem like they would be receptive to a kind word, I've always done so.
These 2 morons did not seem receptive, nor were they respectful of the people around them. They were too busy laughing and taking video of each other shooting a gun they clearly did not have much experience with.

voiceofreason
02-26-2012, 11:06 AM
I would not want this mentaility in my unit.

Situational awareness and being able to read a situation before it goes wrong (as much as possible) is critical and action in the face of danger is even more critical.

All I'm saying is if you see the opportunity to help educate someone,....especially in the name of safety of yourself and others AND good reputation of our "sport"

I appologize for presuming that you were and expert. I thought I read your statement as "if someone can't follow your direction as a range master...". Most Range masters are there to enforce AND educate, not just enforce and admonish.

When I do go to the general public ranges I usually take someone who is less experienced or not experienced at all so that they can have a postitive and learning experience.


In your "unit", there is authority to make changes, you know them, and there is a chain of command. With strangers that don't seem friendly or receptive, none of the above circumstances exist.

I DO help people. That seem willing and receptive to help. That are willing and choose to follow basic safety rules.

Some people just don't take well to criticism from a stranger. They perceive it as a threat or challenge. I've done that dance too many times to bother anymore.

Most official range masters are paid to be there and do their job. Part of their job description is to educate.

When shooting with groups over 4 shooters or with beginners, I'm usually the designated range master.
In such a case, I'm working with people that are capable and willing to follow range commands/basic safety rules.

I was taught that EVERYONE present is a range safety officer at all times. Anyone can call a cease fire for any reason.
HOWEVER, this presumes that everyone is on the same page.

Not everyone wants to be educated. Especially by a stranger that might be pointing out in front of his buddy/buddies that he's doing something unsafe. No matter how gently or politely.

I take new shooters to the range with a .22 rifle w/ a mounted red dot and let them have a great time. Then end the day with a few mags of 9mm handgun.

I'm willing to shoot with, educate, work with, help people that are open to it.

Not everybody is.

If at a range with official range masters... I let them handle it as it's their job.

j411701
02-26-2012, 12:20 PM
You carry a loaded Glock while hiking:eek:

jbush
02-26-2012, 5:41 PM
The issue of dealing with strangers at a range or hunt is way different then the "who I would shoot with" debate. I feel I'm a pretty good judge of people and if their behavior away from guns makes me think they might be a hazard with a gun, I refuse to go shooting with them to find out the hard way.

The stranger at the range thing is a personal choice also. I have been at the range where the RO talked to the guy next to me 3 times about not pointing his pistol sideways at cease fires. I didn't pack and leave, but I did change to a different safer bench. On the 4 time the RO ask him to leave.

Shooting around or with strangers is a tough call. An acquaintance went dove hunting on an indian reservation along the Nev Cal state line. No license required, you can rent a shotgun, pay the fee and your given a spot to hunt along the river. While they were experience hunters, a few 100 ft down river was a group of students with, what turned out to be no experience. Somehow one of the students swung his gun about 105 degree from straight ahead and fired the shotgun, hitting this guy in the face. He was airlifted to Vegas and they saved his eye and ear. A little reconstructive surgery and most of the injury doesn't show. He was lucky he only got stuck with the airlift bill and so med expenses his insurance wouldn't cover, and not a funeral.