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View Full Version : AB144, How does it affect loaded open carry?


S&W629Lover
02-25-2012, 10:57 PM
Although "loaded" open carry has been banned in CA for years, you could still do so in areas such as National Forest Lands.

What I'd like to know is how AB144 affects "loaded" or "unloaded" carry in areas such as National Forest Lands (and other areas previously allowing "loaded" or "unloaded" carry).

I currently have a CCW, so I'm OK either way. But when I hike in the Sierra's, I'd still prefer to open carry "loaded" as before. It's a bit easier to draw quickly when my gun is in it's "open" holster and I run across Black Bear/s.

I open carry
02-25-2012, 11:17 PM
No effect on loaded open carry.

Librarian
02-25-2012, 11:29 PM
So, here's the core of that bill (http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/pub/11-12/bill/asm/ab_0101-0150/ab_144_bill_20111009_chaptered.html):
26350. (a) (1) A person is guilty of openly carrying an unloaded
handgun when that person carries upon his or her person an exposed
and unloaded handgun outside a vehicle while in or on any of the
following:
(A) A public place or public street in an incorporated city or
city and county.
(B) A public street in a prohibited area of an unincorporated area
of a county or city and county.
(C) A public place in a prohibited area of a county or city and
county.
(2) A person is guilty of openly carrying an unloaded handgun when
that person carries an exposed and unloaded handgun inside or on a
vehicle, whether or not on his or her person, while in or on any of
the following:
(A) A public place or public street in an incorporated city or
city and county.
(B) A public street in a prohibited area of an unincorporated area
of a county or city and county.
(C) A public place in a prohibited area of a county or city and
county.

It's perfectly clear that this bit covers UNLOADED only.

But how is a LEO supposed to determine that? Open carry is going to continue to draw attention.

Generally speaking, LTC does NOT allow loaded open carry - there is a special variety of license to allow that behavior.

Mudcamper has been trying to make sense of the details in the sticky in Outdoors - http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=186457

CitaDeL
02-26-2012, 7:28 AM
So, here's the core of that bill (http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/pub/11-12/bill/asm/ab_0101-0150/ab_144_bill_20111009_chaptered.html):


It's perfectly clear that this bit covers UNLOADED only.

But how is a LEO supposed to determine that? Open carry is going to continue to draw attention.

Generally speaking, LTC does NOT allow loaded open carry - there is a special variety of license to allow that behavior.

Mudcamper has been trying to make sense of the details in the sticky in Outdoors - http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=186457


A license to carry is only valid if the licensee is carrying pursuant to the form of license they were issued. Having a license to carry concealed does not prohibit other lawful carry activities, even loaded open carry or open carry of weapons not listed on the license. You can loaded open carry, but the priviledges and immunities of the license are voided if the handgun is not 'substantially concealed'. A revocation of a license for this activity is a pretty solid E/P lawsuit.

Since 26350 does not articulate what constitutes probable cause or reasonable suspicion for a peace officer to inspect for unloaded condition, they have no statutory justification to search the handgun to determine if it is unloaded. Of course this is all irrelevant in unincorporated territory where discharge is not regulated.

el chivo
02-27-2012, 1:21 PM
I haven't seen all the exceptions, but this may be trouble for a person who hunts with a handgun in certain places.

For example, in our area (LA county) there is a firearms map with prohibited areas marked off. Generally you park in a prohibited area (1/8 mile on each side of a specified highway, or a DWP parcel), walk through the prohibited area unloaded, then load up and hunt.

But, you don't have to be cased in that area. With this it seems handgunners (and long gunners if the other bill passes) will have to stay in locked cases when walking through those areas. Currently I leave my case in the car.

I realize there is an exception for hunting, but "while hunting" isn't quite the same as "on your way to hunting".

So we may have to take our cases with us while hunting, or dump them somewhere beyond the prohibited area.

I doubt that there'd be enforcement of such a picky detail, but you do get zealots from time to time.

Decoligny
02-27-2012, 1:50 PM
The OP has an LTC.

Having an LTC is one of the exemptions to the unloaded open carry ban.

The OP could legally unloaded open carry anywhere he could before, and he could legally loaded open carry anywhere he could before.

The premise that I have put forth is this: Since having an LTC gives you a Penal Code based exemption to unloaded open carry, unloaded open carry using the LTC exemption would technically be carrying under the authority of the LTC. If you are carrying a firearm under the authority given by the LTC the CA GFSZ law would not apply.

Not sure if my logic has any flaws in it, but it seems reasonable to me on a strict letter of the law way.

CitaDeL
02-27-2012, 2:30 PM
The OP has an LTC.

Having an LTC is one of the exemptions to the unloaded open carry ban.

The OP could legally unloaded open carry anywhere he could before, and he could legally loaded open carry anywhere he could before.

The premise that I have put forth is this: Since having an LTC gives you a Penal Code based exemption to unloaded open carry, unloaded open carry using the LTC exemption would technically be carrying under the authority of the LTC. If you are carrying a firearm under the authority given by the LTC the CA GFSZ law would not apply.

Not sure if my logic has any flaws in it, but it seems reasonable to me on a strict letter of the law way.

I believe the flaw here is that if the licensee is carrying a handgun outside the conditions of the license (ie; un-concealed), that the license is not valid for any other method of carry. If the license is only applicable to concealed carry, then exposed carry wouldn't be extended the same immunities as when the licensee is carrying concealed. This would mean GFSZ may come into play if either an issuing agency or aggresive DA wants to make an example of you in the event you have a police encounter.

jwkincal
02-27-2012, 2:39 PM
I realize there is an exception for hunting, but "while hunting" isn't quite the same as "on your way to hunting".

Actually the exception includes "on the way to hunting" but I'll have to look it up to give you the actual cite. My guess is Librarian will beat me to it (or not).

OK found it: This is the old numbering but it is supposed to read the same in the new structure; it actually covers concealed carry (via 12025, referenced) so I guess you are OK hunting with a handgun because you can conceal it... may make some trouble for the long arms if the OC of long arms is banned:

12027. Section 12025 does not apply to, or affect, any of the following:

(g) Licensed hunters or fishermen carrying pistols, revolvers, or other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person while engaged in hunting or fishing, or transporting those firearms unloaded when going to or returning from the hunting or fishing expedition.

Decoligny
02-27-2012, 3:06 PM
Actually the exception includes "on the way to hunting" but I'll have to look it up to give you the actual cite. My guess is Librarian will beat me to it (or not).

OK found it: This is the old numbering but it is supposed to read the same in the new structure; it actually covers concealed carry (via 12025, referenced) so I guess you are OK hunting with a handgun because you can conceal it... may make some trouble for the long arms if the OC of long arms is passed:

25640. Section 25400 does not apply to, or affect, licensed hunters or fishermen carrying pistols, revolvers, or other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person while engaged in hunting or fishing, or transporting those firearms unloaded when going to or returning from the hunting or fishing expedition.

S&W629Lover
02-29-2012, 7:42 PM
I've read all of the replies, and found each one to be helpful. Thank You!