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dtm925
02-24-2012, 2:56 PM
I just did a ppt and flew through the background check. I've waited over 10 days and now want to pick up my handgun. I'm using my valid CA drivers license and a residential Lease room agreement as my proof of residency. The place that did the DROS says the lease needs to be Notarized as well as have the seal of California attached to the document. I called the DOJ and they told me it does not need to be notarized. However, they said nothing about having the California seal attached. I've used the same lease agreement multiple times before when purchasing handguns. I don't want to get the FFL in trouble if I provide the wrong thing. I'm stuck and cannot pickup my firearm. What is your experience? Any advise is appreciated. Thank you.

Lives_In_Fresno
02-24-2012, 4:00 PM
I do not believe that any seal is needed....After all, what landlord would even have such a seal?

outdoorman
02-24-2012, 4:09 PM
do you have any type of vehicle registration with the address that matches your license/ lease agreement?

Matt C
02-24-2012, 4:13 PM
LOL, what seal? arsehats

here print this out and tape it on: http://www.netstate.com/states/symb/seals/images/seal_ca.jpg

Deucer
02-24-2012, 4:20 PM
I just did a ppt and flew through the background check. I've waited over 10 days and now want to pick up my handgun. I'm using my valid CA drivers license and a residential Lease room agreement as my proof of residency. The place that did the DROS says the lease needs to be Notarized as well as have the seal of California attached to the document. I called the DOJ and they told me it does not need to be notarized. However, they said nothing about having the California seal attached. I've used the same lease agreement multiple times before when purchasing handguns. I don't want to get the FFL in trouble if I provide the wrong thing. I'm stuck and cannot pickup my firearm. What is your experience? Any advise is appreciated. Thank you.

The FFL is doing you a disservice by holding on to your gun for longer than they should. I'd call them up and let them know that they need to release your property.

dtm925
02-24-2012, 4:30 PM
They will not release with out the items stated. I'm staying in LA and they are in Kern county. I don't know what to do.

halifax
02-24-2012, 4:53 PM
I do not believe that any seal is needed....After all, what landlord would even have such a seal?

Not the landlords, the notary, I suspect. The dealer is probably going by this incorrect FAQ answer on the DOJ website:

What documentation is acceptable to demonstrate proof of residency for handgun purchasers? (http://oag.ca.gov/firearms/dlrfaqs#33G)

What documentation is acceptable to demonstrate proof of residency for handgun purchasers?

Utility bill from within the past three months that bears on its face the individual's name and either of the following:
The individual's current residential address as declared on the Dealer's Record of Sale (DROS) form

or

The individual's residential address as it appears on his or her California Driver License or California Identification Card, or change of address attachment thereto.
"Utility bill" means a statement of charges for providing service to the individual's residence by either a physical connection (i.e., hard wired telephone connection or cable connection, or a water or gas pipeline connection) or a telemetric connection (i.e., satellite television or radio broadcast service) to a non-mobile, fixed antenna reception device.

Residential lease that bears the individual's name and either of the following:
The individual's current residential address as declared on the Dealer's Record of Sale (DROS) form
or

The individual's address as it appears on his or her California Driver License or California Identification card, or change of address attachment thereto.
"Residential lease" means either of the following:

A signed and dated contract by which the individual (tenant)agrees to pay a specified monetary sum or provide other consideration for the right to occupy an abode for a specified period of time
or

A signed and dated rental agreement by which the individual (tenant) agrees to pay a specified monetary sum or provide other consideration at fixed intervals for the right to occupy an abode.
Property deed the bears the individual's name and either of the following:
The individual's current residential address as declared on the Dealer's Record of Sale (DROS) form
or

The individual's address as it appears on his or her California Driver License or California Identification Card, or change of address attachment thereto.
"Property deed" means either or the following:

A valid deed of trust for the individual's property of current residence that identifies the individual as a grantee of the trust
or

A valid Certificate of title issued by a licensed title insurance company that identifies the individual as a title holder to his or her property of current residence.
Current, government-issued license, permit, or registration, other than a CA Driver License or CA Identification Card, that has a specified expiration date or period of validity. The license, permit, or registration must bear the individual's name and either of the following:
The individual's current residential address as declared on the Dealer's Record of Sale (DROS) form
or

The individual's address as it appears on his or her California Driver License or California Identification Card, or change of address attachment thereto.
Examples of acceptable proof of residency:

Current DMV registrations.
Electricity, gas, cable bill with purchaser's name onit from within the last 3 months.
Signed, dated and notarized rental agreement/contract.

Examples of documents that are NOT acceptable proof of residency:

Hunting or fishing license (these documents are not issued by the government).
Cellular phone bill.

dtm925
02-24-2012, 5:13 PM
So you believe that I don't need either.

halifax
02-24-2012, 6:25 PM
So you believe that I don't need either.

The law doesn't say notarized so I don't know where the "example" given in the FAQ came from. Maybe Librarian does.


26845. (a) No handgun may be delivered unless the purchaser,
transferee, or person being loaned the firearm presents documentation
indicating that the person is a California resident.
(b) Satisfactory documentation shall include a utility bill from
within the last three months, a residential lease, a property deed,
or military permanent duty station orders indicating assignment
within this state, or other evidence of residency as permitted by the
Department of Justice.
(c) The firearms dealer shall retain a photocopy of the
documentation as proof of compliance with this requirement.


To answer your question: Your FFL certainly is entitled to interpret the example as being the law and require that the lease have a notary's signature and seal on it.

dtm925
02-24-2012, 6:36 PM
How do you think I should handle the FFL?

halifax
02-24-2012, 6:43 PM
How do you think I should handle the FFL?

See my edit above. I don't think you can "handle" the FFL if he insists.

dtm925
02-24-2012, 7:54 PM
I looked under the DOJ rules for what a residential lease agreement is and my lease fulfills every requirement. The address is the same that's on my California issued drivers license, my DROS paperwork, as well the lease. Both my name is stated on all three of those same documents. Again no place where it states these items must be notarized.

http://oag.ca.gov/firearms/resprf

Now I'm all confused...

Deucer
02-24-2012, 9:37 PM
How do you think I should handle the FFL?

Have him call the DOJ, to clarify the situation.

If he still refuses, I'd name the business here.

He can legally refuse you for any reason he likes, but if someone wasted a bunch of my time and money, I'd let others know about it.

Deucer
02-24-2012, 9:39 PM
I looked under the DOJ rules for what a residential lease agreement is and my lease fulfills every requirement. The address is the same that's on my California issued drivers license, my DROS paperwork, as well the lease. Both my name is stated on all three of those same documents. Again no place where it states these items must be notarized.

http://oag.ca.gov/firearms/resprf

Now I'm all confused...

Show this to your FFL. You shouldn't have to do homework for them, but now that you've done it, you might as well inform him.

dtm925
02-24-2012, 9:44 PM
Are there any FFL's that can give me advise on what to do?? He said they'll charge me $25 to ship to another FFL. At this point in time I actually think that is a good idea being that it's going to cost me at the very minimum $50 in gas to and from to pick it up. If I did this would I have to do DROS all over again including another 10 day waiting period??

tenpercentfirearms
02-24-2012, 10:31 PM
Are there any FFL's that can give me advise on what to do?? He said they'll charge me $25 to ship to another FFL. At this point in time I actually think that is a good idea being that it's going to cost me at the very minimum $50 in gas to and from to pick it up. If I did this would I have to do DROS all over again including another 10 day waiting period??

Alaska non-resident hunting licenses are $20 and you can print them up online.

Who is the dealer, I might know them and be able to help out. Or have them call the CA DOJ and ask if it has to be notarized. The law does not say it does, only the CA DOJ website, which is not the law.

Keep in mind if it was a PPT and it gets shipped to another FFL, if it is an off roster handgun, the new FFL cannot process the DROS unless you or the handgun are exempt from the roster.

There should be no reason you can't work it out with the FFL.

halifax
02-25-2012, 3:56 AM
I looked under the DOJ rules for what a residential lease agreement is and my lease fulfills every requirement. The address is the same that's on my California issued drivers license, my DROS paperwork, as well the lease. Both my name is stated on all three of those same documents. Again no place where it states these items must be notarized.

http://oag.ca.gov/firearms/resprf

Now I'm all confused...

Only in the examples.

From your link:

Examples of acceptable proof of residency pursuant to newly-proposed regulations:
DMV registrations are NOW acceptable.
Electricity, gas, cable bill from within the last 3 months.
Signed, dated and notarized rental agreement/contract.


Denying the word's existence on the DOJ website doesn't help. You need to convince the dealer that it is meaningless because it's not part of the text of the law, that it is only a poorly worded example (i.e., underground regulation).

BTW, did you get the name of the person at the DOJ that told you it didn't need to be notarized? Have the dealer call the DOJ. Or, as Wes suggested, take another tack and see if they will accept the Alaska government-issued hunting license.

halifax
02-25-2012, 5:27 AM
Unlike the DOJ website, this cite doesn't have the examples. Maybe the dealer will accept it:

http://www.apartment-manager-law.com/data9/4045-Definitions.htm

11 CA ADC 4045

11 CCR s 4045

Cal. Admin. Code tit. 11, s 4045



CALIFORNIA CODE OF REGULATIONS
TITLE 11. LAW
DIVISION 5. FIREARMS REGULATIONS
CHAPTER 4. EVIDENCE OF RESIDENCY DOCUMENTATION
This database is current through 12/22/06, Register 2006, No. 51.
s 4045. Definitions and Requirements.


The following definitions and requirements apply to documents intended to
serve as evidence of residency for the acquisition of a handgun pursuant
to Penal Code section 12071(b)(8)(C):
a.1. "Utility bill" means a statement of charges for providing direct
service to the individual's residence by either a physical connection
(i.e., hard wired telephone or cable connection, or a water or gas
pipeline connection), or a telemetric connection (i.e., satellite
television or radio broadcast service) to a non-mobile, fixed antenna
reception device.

2. The utility bill statement date must be within three months of
the current date.


3. The utility bill must bear on its face the individual's name and
either of the following:


A. The individual's current residential address as declared on the
Dealer's Record of Sale (DROS) form.


B. The individual's residential address as it appears on his or her
California Driver License or California Identification Card, or
change of address attachment thereto.


b.1. "Residential lease" means either of the following:

A. A signed and dated contract by which the individual (tenant)
agrees to pay a specified monetary sum or provide other
consideration for the right to occupy an abode for a specified
period of time.


B. A signed and dated rental agreement by which the individual
(tenant) agrees to pay a specified monetary sum or provide other
consideration at fixed intervals for the right to occupy an abode.


2. The residential lease must bear the individual's name and either
of the following:


A. The individual's current residential address as declared on the
Dealer's Record of Sale (DROS) form.


B. The individual's address as it appears on his or her California
Driver License or California Identification Card, or change of
address attachment thereto.


c.1. "Property deed" means either of the following:

A. A valid deed of trust for the individual's property of current
residence that identifies the individual as a grantee of the trust.


B. A valid Certificate of Title issued by a licensed title
insurance company that identifies the individual as a title holder
to his or her property of current residence.


2. The property deed must bear the individual's name and either of
the following:


A. The individual's current residential address as declared on the
Dealer's Record of Sale (DROS) form.


B. The individual's address as it appears on his or her California
Driver License or California Identification Card, or change of
address attachment thereto.


d. "Other evidence of residency as permitted by the Department of Justice"
means either of the following:

1. A current, government-issued (city, county, special district,
state, or federal) license, permit, or registration, other than a
California Driver License or California Identification Card, that
has a specified expiration date or period of validity. The license,
permit, or registration must bear the individual's name and either
of the following:


A. The individual's current residential address as declared on the
Dealer's Record of Sale (DROS) form.


B. The individual's address as it appears on his or her California
Driver License or California Identification Card, or change of
address attachment thereto.


2. A valid peace officer credential issued by a California law
enforcement agency to an active, reserve, or retired peace officer.


Note: Authority cited: Section 12071, Penal Code. Reference:
Sections 12071 and 12072, Penal Code.


HISTORY

1. Change without regulatory effect renumbering division 1, chapter 13.8
(section 996) to division 5, chapter 4 (section 4045) filed 6-28-2006
pursuant
to section 100, title 1, California Code of Regulations (Register 2006,
No. 26).

11 CCR s 4045, 11 CA ADC s 4045
1CAC

11 CA ADC s 4045

END OF DOCUMENT


It's worth a try.

dtm925
02-25-2012, 10:40 AM
UPDATE: FFL refuses to relinquish firearm to my possession and insists that the lease must be notarized.

dtm925
02-25-2012, 10:47 AM
I guess I have to get it notarized,

tenpercentfirearms
02-25-2012, 11:22 AM
I guess I have to get it notarized,

Stand by. I called them. Let me see what I can do.

dtm925
02-25-2012, 11:38 AM
Great now we've stirred up a hornets nest. Not something I wanted.

dtm925
02-25-2012, 11:41 AM
I just think there is a discrepancy between what the DOJ point of contact for them is and the DOJ in Sacramento. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong and will drive the 350 miles and spend the $200 in gas it will take to get it taken care of.

dtm925
02-25-2012, 11:48 AM
How about a DMV print out and my drivers license as proof of residency? Will they take that?

tenpercentfirearms
02-25-2012, 3:04 PM
How about a DMV print out and my drivers license as proof of residency? Will they take that?

No.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=327217

tenpercentfirearms
02-25-2012, 3:19 PM
I just talked to the dealer in question. At his last DOJ audit, he was written up 12 times because he did not get notarized rental agreements. So at this point in time, I do not blame him for requiring it and as long as it is on the DOJ website, I think he is warranted in requiring it.

Unfortunately you are going to have to find another route for proving your residency. He did mention he called the DOJ on Friday to ask about it, but of course they didn't answer so hopefully gets a call back, but again, don't be surprised if he sticks to his policy of notary until the CA DOJ website is changed.

What I am going to see is if we can't get the notary requirement removed from the CA DOJ website since it clearly isn't part of the law.

To the rest of you dealers reading this, if you are ever written up for not having notary, please contact CAL-FFL and let us know. This is not legal, but we have to stand up for ourselves. We can force the DOJ to show us where that is an actual violation of the law, which as we can see from this thread it is not.

We need to start sticking together as a unified front and dispelling some of the FUD the CA DOJ likes to spread. Hopefully they will be willing to work with us so we don't have to force anyone to do anything.

natrab
03-07-2012, 5:11 PM
I had a similar experience with a Sacramento FFL the other day. He would not accept a rental agreement as proof of residency and he said it's not a "solid form" of proof. Didn't matter if it was notarized or anything and it didn't matter that it was in the law.

He apparently started doing this after hearing so from someone from the DOJ. I respect him for telling me this before taking the firearm (it was a PPT), but he still wouldn't listen to reason at all and said that all he cared about was keeping his DOJ inspector happy. I guess it's his prerogative even if it is hurting our gun rights.

He did, however, accept a printout from the DMV that was a "voter change of address" printout from the last time I did it.

I guess I need to get a hunting license or something, or just always do transactions at good FFLs I know (Rob Blank)

tenpercentfirearms
03-07-2012, 9:45 PM
He did, however, accept a printout from the DMV that was a "voter change of address" printout from the last time I did it.

LOL. The voter change of address is not sufficient for state handgun requirements. It has to be a government issued document with an expiration date. The voter change of address has no expiration date or period of validity. It is only good for Federal proof of residency.

At least I assume you were doing a handgun since you wouldn't be able to use a rental agreement for Federal requirements.

natrab
03-08-2012, 4:33 AM
Yeah. It was a handgun.

tenpercentfirearms
03-08-2012, 6:00 AM
Yeah. It was a handgun.

Why are people so stupid? "I won't take that, it is exactly what the DOJ wants. I will take that though that does not meet the requirements!" LOL.