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View Full Version : Conflicting advice on private sale of C&R


whitelight0810
02-24-2012, 12:47 PM
In a different thread on a private sale post, there were a lot of people posting about cash and carry of Curio and Relics to Non-licensee holders via private party transfer. I would be curious if anyone in this legal forum agrees with such statements? My understanding is that the Brady Law (GCA) still applies which is the Federal statute, constituting a need to do a 4473 as well as a background check (DROS) which can only be done with an FFL. Neither the buyer nor the seller has an FFL (type 3 or dealer's license) or a COE from the State.

How do Calguns moderators or legal team oversee such things when there is conflicting advice from the general public?

Mesa Tactical
02-24-2012, 1:04 PM
Transfers of C&R long guns are indeed cash and carry between private individuals, at least until Jan 2014, when new laws kick in.

whitelight0810
02-24-2012, 1:07 PM
hmm....when looking on ATF's website this is what I found under FAQ's:

Q: Are curio or relic firearms exempt from the provisions of the GCA?
No. Curios or relics are still firearms subject to the provisions of the GCA; however, curio or relic firearms may be transferred in interstate commerce to licensed collectors or other licensees.

I take that as not cash and carry, and need to do a 4473 since GCA requires the 4473 form and a background check.

sd_shooter
02-24-2012, 1:10 PM
Here's the Calguns C&R sticky. Post #11 would interest you:
(But read the whole thing)
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=72854

paul0660
02-24-2012, 1:11 PM
Interstate. Look it up.

Mesa Tactical
02-24-2012, 1:11 PM
hmm....when looking on ATF's website this is what I found under FAQ's:

Q: Are curio or relic firearms exempt from the provisions of the GCA?
No. Curios or relics are still firearms subject to the provisions of the GCA; however, curio or relic firearms may be transferred in interstate commerce to licensed collectors or other licensees.

I take that as not cash and carry, and need to do a 4473 since GCA requires the 4473 form and a background check.

That refers to interstate transactions.*

Within California, transfers of C&R long guns are cash and carry between private individuals, as opposed to transfers of all other non-antique firearms, which must be through an FFL.

In most of the rest of the US, all non-NFA firearms can be transferred cash and carry between individuals (intrastate).


* An exception to this is CMP sales. Dunno how they get around it.

sd_shooter
02-24-2012, 1:12 PM
hmm....when looking on ATF's website this is what I found under FAQ's:

Q: Are curio or relic firearms exempt from the provisions of the GCA?
No. Curios or relics are still firearms subject to the provisions of the GCA; however, curio or relic firearms may be transferred in interstate commerce to licensed collectors or other licensees.

I take that as not cash and carry, and need to do a 4473 since GCA requires the 4473 form and a background check.

So are you talking out of state in only within CA? Usually we use our FFL03 for interstate commerce (ie. out of state), the C&R cash & carry is within CA.

emcon5
02-24-2012, 1:14 PM
hmm....when looking on ATF's website this is what I found under FAQ's:

Q: Are curio or relic firearms exempt from the provisions of the GCA?
No. Curios or relics are still firearms subject to the provisions of the GCA; however, curio or relic firearms may be transferred in interstate commerce to licensed collectors or other licensees.

I take that as not cash and carry, and need to do a 4473 since GCA requires the 4473 form and a background check.

Interstate commerce, meaning across state lines, requires at least one of the parties to have an FFL. 4473 is not required for sales between FFLs.

There is no federal law governing sales between 2 non-prohibited persons of the same state, so the feds don't care (AKA the "gun-show loophole"). State law governs transfers within CA, which at the moment allows face to face transactions between non-prohibited persons of long guns over 50 years old.

rp55
02-24-2012, 1:16 PM
Within California, transfers of C&R long guns are cash and carry between private individuals

C&R is a federal Term that means nothing in CA. In CA long guns over 50 years old are cash and carry. There are some Federal C&R's that are not cash and carry in CA because they are not over 50 years old.

* An exception to this is CMP sales. Dunno how they get around it.

Act of Congress. And be aware that when they did it, Garands were not yet C&R.

whitelight0810
02-24-2012, 1:27 PM
I was referring to a private party between 2 non-licensees. Nowhere in that ATF FAQ did it say anything about interstate. It was listed for unlicensed people who had FAQ's. I know there are alot of people who do the cash and carry with C&R's but I still have yet to find the legal "green light" to do so.


@sd_shooter: Thank you for the sticky. I found it useful to read over and will reference the excerpts that were taken from the law.

Mesa Tactical
02-24-2012, 1:30 PM
I was referring to a private party between 2 non-licensees. Nowhere in that ATF FAQ did it say anything about interstate. It was listed for unlicensed people who had FAQ's. I know there are alot of people who do the cash and carry with C&R's but I still have yet to find the legal "green light" to do so.

There are no legal green lights, only legal red lights.

ATF/Federal law does not prohibit face to face cash and carry intrastate transfers of non-NFA firearms; therefore, they are legal except where state law prohibits them (such as California).

Librarian
02-24-2012, 1:32 PM
I was referring to a private party between 2 non-licensees. Nowhere in that ATF FAQ did it say anything about interstate. It was listed for unlicensed people who had FAQ's. I know there are alot of people who do the cash and carry with C&R's but I still have yet to find the legal "green light" to do so.


@sd_shooter: Thank you for the sticky. I found it useful to read over and will reference the excerpts that were taken from the law.

BATF, being Federal, is concerned ONLY with interstate/Federal regulation regarding firearms.

So, they audit Federal Firearms License (FFL) holders, but they care nothing for California's intrafamilial transfer regulations, and they are not the source of California's requirement to use an FFL for private party transfers.

emcon5
02-24-2012, 2:05 PM
I was referring to a private party between 2 non-licensees. Nowhere in that ATF FAQ did it say anything about interstate. Sure it does. Go back up and read your quote. Here it is again, with emphasis added:

Q: Are curio or relic firearms exempt from the provisions of the GCA?
No. Curios or relics are still firearms subject to the provisions of the GCA; however, curio or relic firearms may be transferred in interstate commerce to licensed collectors or other licensees.

It was listed for unlicensed people who had FAQ's. I know there are alot of people who do the cash and carry with C&R's but I still have yet to find the legal "green light" to do so..
How about this:

(2) Subdivision (d) and paragraph (1) of subdivision (f) of Section 12072 shall not apply to the infrequent sale, loan, or transfer of a firearm that is not a handgun, which is a curio or relic manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas thereof, as defined in Section 478.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations, or its successor.

That PC number may have changed with the recent renumberification, but that is the law.

You can get the same information from the CA DOJ FAQ:
http://oag.ca.gov/firearms/pubfaqs#14
emphasis added
I want to sell a gun to another person, i.e., a private party transfer. Am I required to conduct the transaction through a licensed California firearms dealer?

Yes. Firearm sales must be conducted through a fully licensed California firearms dealer. Failure to do so is a violation of California law. The buyer (and seller, in the event that the; buyer is denied), must meet the normal firearm purchase and delivery requirements. "Antique firearms," as defined in Section 921(a)(16) of Title 18 of the United States Code, and curio or relic rifles/shotguns, defined in Section 178.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations that are over 50 years old, are exempt from this requirement.

cdtx2001
02-24-2012, 9:57 PM
There are no legal green lights, only legal red lights.

ATF/Federal law does not prohibit face to face cash and carry intrastate transfers of non-NFA firearms; therefore, they are legal except where state law prohibits them (such as California).

California does not (currently) prohibit the face to face/ cash and carry transfer of 50+ year old long gun firearms.

Mssr. Eleganté
02-24-2012, 11:25 PM
Here's your Federal "green light".

Q: To whom may an unlicensed person transfer firearms under the GCA?

A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his State, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may loan or rent a firearm to a resident of any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may sell or transfer a firearm to a licensee in any State. However, a firearm other than a curio or relic may not be transferred interstate to a licensed collector.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/unlicensed-persons.html#gca-unlicensed-transfer


Somebody already posted the California "green light" above. But you can see that California restricts "dealerless" transfers to long guns that are at least 50 years old and defined as C&R by the Feds.

GOEX FFF
02-25-2012, 12:59 AM
You can even have a 50+ year old C&R long gun shipped in state between two unlicensed, 18+ year old, non prohibited CA residents. It doesn't HAVE to be FTF.

sd_shooter
02-25-2012, 4:52 AM
You can even have a 50+ year old C&R long gun shipped in state between two unlicensed, 18+ year old, non prohibited CA residents. It doesn't HAVE to be FTF.

I did not know that.

Anyone here actually ship a C&R to someone sight unseen?

PhantomII
02-25-2012, 6:25 AM
I think the confusion here is that the OP is California Indoctrinated.

Federal law has no requirement for intra-state private sales of ANY firearms to go through an FFL so there is no requirement for C&R's to do so.

It's a California thing. Ca. requires private transfers to go through an FFL but C&R over 50 years old are exempted.