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View Full Version : Monterey Herald: Scrutiny for gun permits gets tighter (CGF demand letter mentioned)


wildhawker
02-23-2012, 11:31 PM
http://www.montereyherald.com/local/ci_20033908/scrutiny-gun-permits-gets-tighter

When then-candidate for sheriff Scott Miller announced he would ease the application process for firearms carrying permits in Monterey County, Second Amendment advocates were thrilled.

"If you just say you want to carry a gun for personal protection, we consider that good cause," Miller said of a dramatic change in the office's long-standing requirement that applicants provide detailed justifications of why they're at risk and should be allowed to carry concealed guns in public.

When Miller took office in 2011, websites frequented by gun owners buzzed with hopeful chatter that Monterey County had finally loosened up.

But they soon grew disillusioned. The nonprofit pro-gun rights group Calguns Foundation sent a letter to Miller in August demanding he end delays in developing his new policy and "immediately begin accepting all applications."

He did.

Ref'ed CGF demand letter: http://calgunsfoundation.org/resources/downloads/file/32-monterey.html

-Brandon

velmingrafter
02-24-2012, 1:13 AM
I live in Monterey county and would like a ccw, but I sure as hell don't want my neighbors, coworkers, and boss to decide if I am worthy, let alone even know about it. Miller should spend less time thinking of ways to infringe on our 2A, and more time fighting meth dealers! What, his son deals meth out of miller's house? OK, nevermind. What a piece of work! I feel ill that I voted for that guy.

Drivedabizness
02-24-2012, 1:43 AM
Brandon - any chance someone will ask Sacramento Sheriff Jones, pretty please, to accept and process applications per statute, instead of requiring applicants to wait for a screening appointment (said appointments are currently booked almost a year in advance) ???

wildhawker
02-24-2012, 1:52 AM
Brandon - any chance someone will ask Sacramento Sheriff Jones, pretty please, to accept and process applications per statute, instead of requiring applicants to wait for a screening appointment (said appointments are currently booked almost a year in advance) ???

This is a bit OT, but to answer your question, Gene and I will see him this weekend at the CRPA annual meeting.

-Brandon

BusBoy
02-24-2012, 6:33 AM
http://www.montereyherald.com/local/ci_20033908/scrutiny-gun-permits-gets-tighter



Ref'ed CGF demand letter: http://calgunsfoundation.org/resources/downloads/file/32-monterey.html

-Brandon

Brandon, Its good to see the CGF making headway !!

In the demand letter you gave the good Sheriff a drop dead date of Aug 19 2011... now I have no idea what might go into reforming policy for LTC but, did the Sheriff take and modify the CGF LTC policy or did the Sheriff come up with their own?

If the only thing the Sheriff did was to begin taking applications again why the delay from Aug 19 till now?

Just interested because I see the delay as just another tactic to deny applicants the ability to apply. With almost a half a years delay IMO it seems a bit lengthy for the Sheriff or his counsel to pull their heads from the nether region a make necessary changes.

But again... Excellent job! Heres to our 2A recovery program... its 58 step process! ;)

tankerman
02-24-2012, 6:45 AM
Why should a group of volunteer pilots that fly local politicians around put ahead of everyone else for permit?

Also, that part that described their firearms training as being a good reason for getting approved for a permit was weird. Does that mean that anyone who has firearms training is equally worthy of a permit?


I'm thinking the obviously political-LEO talked himself into a corner.

erik
02-24-2012, 2:37 PM
Why should a group of volunteer pilots that fly local politicians around put ahead of everyone else for permit?


Additionally, there is one supposed good cause of "I am continually carrying a lot of cash ... I wear expensive jewelry." (2010)

More worrisome is that they published the list of names of the current holders.

A spot check [30-60 seconds on google] on one name revealed that they were an Aero pilot, worked in Carmel as a sole proprietorship, which makes $110k/yr, and had the cross streets of the business listed. [from 2 links on the top of the first page of results].

Monterey is not big enough such that there can be any claim of "anonymization" by only publishing names and nothing else.

Crom
02-24-2012, 2:54 PM
But public records show that while Miller has thrown wide open the definition of what constitutes good cause to carry a firearm, he has also imposed far stricter background checks and added a psychological exam to the requirements. Nice to see that he is accepting applications after threatening litigation... But damn I would hate to have to pay for a lousy psychological exam. :(

spiderpigs
02-24-2012, 3:02 PM
Nice to see that he is accepting applications after threatening litigation... But damn I would hate to have to pay for a lousy psychological exam. :(

and apparently the only acceptable place is in san jose and its something like $400, though this is by word of mouth and not my own application

Librarian
02-24-2012, 3:11 PM
and apparently the only acceptable place is in san jose and its something like $400, though this is by word of mouth and not my own application

That's interesting. PC 26190 says (f) (1) If psychological testing on the initial application is
required by the licensing authority, the license applicant shall be
referred to a licensed psychologist used by the licensing authority
for the psychological testing of its own employees. The applicant may
be charged for the actual cost of the testing in an amount not to
exceed one hundred fifty dollars ($150).

Drivedabizness
02-24-2012, 3:51 PM
Thanks, Brandon!!!

Mute
02-24-2012, 4:28 PM
Additionally, there is one supposed good cause of "I am continually carrying a lot of cash ... I wear expensive jewelry." (2010)


So does this mean if I wear my Patek Philippe watch I qualify?

Zimz
02-24-2012, 5:15 PM
I didn't like how that paper posted the names of all the current CCW holders. I know it's public record, but they could have used some discretion and not posted it. Its almost as if they are trying to "inform" the public who these people are, similar to sex offenders etc.

Gray Peterson
02-24-2012, 5:43 PM
I didn't like how that paper posted the names of all the current CCW holders. I know it's public record, but they could have used some discretion and not posted it. Its almost as if they are trying to "inform" the public who these people are, similar to sex offenders etc.

The unfortunate collateral consequence of having a "may-issue" law. As much as I fault the paper for doing this (Note that CGF takes out identifying information), the law that allowed for this to occur is a good law.

Paul S
02-24-2012, 5:58 PM
More worrisome is that they published the list of names of the current holders.

Considered a public record. Nothing you can do about it. Reference the court case CBS v Block

Chief-7700
02-24-2012, 6:52 PM
I have many friends on the Monterey County list of CCW (LTC) who are not happy campers with their names being published.

Ubermcoupe
02-24-2012, 8:53 PM
...
More worrisome is that they published the list of names of the current holders.
...

Ditto. Does list also include LEOs/DAs/Judges unlike the SJ mercury list?

Nice to see Dirty Harry’s name on that list :thumbsup: - Wonder what he carries ...

Gray Peterson
02-24-2012, 11:17 PM
I have many friends on the Monterey County list of CCW (LTC) who are not happy campers with their names being published.

Two things: Make sure they understand that the Herald did this and not CGF, and if they want to have their names not continued to be posted, they need to help us get shall-issue a reality so broadcast of the names will no longer occur so we can close the public record.

chiselchst
02-25-2012, 1:33 AM
"...and have applicants undergo a voice stress analysis."

HHhhmmmm...as a stutterer, I wonder how I'd do. Sometimes I have *voice stress* just saying "how much for that .45?" :43: Then usually I stutter more when I get the answer :eek: :)

Untamed1972
02-25-2012, 7:49 AM
Hmmm.....pretty interesting that he deems about HALF of all applicants unqualified. These elected tyrants sure think alot of themselves aye?

ParadigmGuy
02-26-2012, 1:46 AM
and apparently the only acceptable place is in san jose and its something like $400, though this is by word of mouth and not my own application

That's interesting. PC 26190 saysI'm in the process of applying in Monterey. The psych analysis is $150.

pumpkinshooter
02-27-2012, 7:11 PM
Any hope for getting rid of some of the foolishness(interviews with neighbors and employer, psych eval, etc)?

C.G.
02-27-2012, 8:07 PM
I'm in the process of applying in Monterey. The psych analysis is $150.

Please, keep us updated on how it went. I will be applying soon, it would be nice to know the ropes.

spiderpigs
02-27-2012, 9:38 PM
I'm in the process of applying in Monterey. The psych analysis is $150.

Good to hear

Tripper
02-27-2012, 9:57 PM
Please, keep us updated on how it went. I will be applying soon, it would be nice to know the ropes.

hmm,, the ropes
ummm, would be nice to know the ropes, talk to goober, hopefully, all that apply are keeping him in the loop of how things are going, so that it can be passed along. in his absence, shoot me a message, and i'll try to help where possible. (if thats ok with goober)

psych is $150, is like 3 tests of 400+ questions each, or 400 ways of asking 3 questions maybe, takes all morning and some of the afternoon (from what i've heard), the psych guy tends to ask just a few questions in his actual interview with you.
/sarcasm (maybe), somehow there is an IQ test in there, so, be sure and ask what your IQ score is (lol)

I dont know of anyone very happy with the publishing of names.
the actual statement i have personally heard is
'I want to look at the list to see if any of my neighbors are on it.'

maybe CCW holders should get vinyl decals for their cars that states
"CCW holder on board" or some really bold statement, or jackets even
I think there is a guy here on CGN that does car vinyl things

I heard that the chief was slightly mis quoted (mis-quoted is not unheard of among reporters)

///just my .02

goober
02-27-2012, 10:34 PM
Folks, for more info on the Monterey Co. LTC saga, please see the

Monterey County Good Cause Statements (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=352771) thread in the Sunshine Initiative LTC sub-forum.

It documents the whole process during which we had to demand that MCSO begin accepting applications, and is also the place to read about the experiences of those who have applied (and post your own).

Regarding the article, public record or not, it was in poor taste for the Herald to publish the names of LTC permitees. It's difficult to see what possible benefit there was to doing so, other than to "out" them to the generally hoplophobic public.

Librarian
02-27-2012, 11:29 PM
psych is $150, is like 3 tests of 400+ questions each, or 400 ways of asking 3 questions maybe, takes all morning and some of the afternoon (from what i've heard),

Sounds like the MMPI - Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Inventory, or derivations of that.

axel4488
02-27-2012, 11:43 PM
Sounds like the MMPI - Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Inventory, or derivations of that.

yeah. They are completely worthless and a waste of time.

wayneinFL
02-28-2012, 5:22 AM
Alameda — 140

Contra Costa — 186

Monterey — 128*

Santa Clara — 113

Santa Cruz — 27

Holy crap. We have 54,000 just in Palm Beach County, FL.

Tripper
02-28-2012, 6:23 AM
Hey Goober, doesnt the Personal Defense cause, kind of moot the need to review the Good Cause statements that have been accepted, since they no longer apply

not many are entering their 'experiences'

maybe someone should go through the list and start calling people on it

goober
02-28-2012, 6:55 AM
Hey Goober, doesnt the Personal Defense cause, kind of moot the need to review the Good Cause statements that have been accepted, since they no longer apply

not many are entering their 'experiences'

maybe someone should go through the list and start calling people on it

The reference to the good cause statements thread was not so that folks could check out the statements themselves, since as you mentioned that part is easy now with Miller.
So while the GC statement content in that thread is of mostly historical interest, the rest of the thread chronicles the period during which Miller wasn't accepting apps, when we sent the demand letters (which were mentioned in the Herald article), and the initial experiences of some CGN members that applied.
Yes, it would be great to have more stories. I've heard from only 3-4 folks, not sure how many more there are here.

Tripper
02-28-2012, 7:26 AM
not many talking

Untamed1972
02-28-2012, 8:04 AM
The article mentioned them requiring a "voice stress analysis". Isn't that basically a polygraph test? Is it legal for them to require that? Aren't there some federal laws regarding requiring polygrahps for things? I know it's illegal to require them for pre-employment screening except LE jobs and security clearance jobs. But requiring them for obtaining a gov't issued permit? Seems a bit extreme.

ParadigmGuy
02-28-2012, 11:49 PM
Please, keep us updated on how it went. I will be applying soon, it would be nice to know the ropes.
Will do. Once complete I'll post back. The delay will be waiting for the CCW course.

The article mentioned them requiring a "voice stress analysis". Isn't that basically a polygraph test? Is it legal for them to require that? Aren't there some federal laws regarding requiring polygrahps for things? I know it's illegal to require them for pre-employment screening except LE jobs and security clearance jobs. But requiring them for obtaining a gov't issued permit? Seems a bit extreme.
Unless they are doing a voice stress analysis during the psych assessment, or unless the interviewer did it without my knowledge, there isn't such a test.

goober
02-29-2012, 5:17 AM
Will do. Once complete I'll post back. The delay will be waiting for the CCW course.


Unless they are doing a voice stress analysis during the psych assessment, or unless the interviewer did it without my knowledge, there isn't such a test.

The VSA is done during the interview, and there is no way they did it w/o you knowing it.
This means they skipped the VSA for you, and is the first I have heard of it. Thank you for sharing this, it is vital that we gather as much info regarding everyone's experience as possible.

Untamed1972
02-29-2012, 10:04 AM
The VSA is done during the interview, and there is no way they did it w/o you knowing it.
This means they skipped the VSA for you, and is the first I have heard of it. Thank you for sharing this, it is vital that we gather as much info regarding everyone's experience as possible.

My question still remains....is this one of the permissible applications steps/requirements allowed for in the PC, or is this just the Sheriff goin' off the res' and making up his own rules again?

LHC30
02-29-2012, 10:59 AM
OMG! The VSA is an unreliable and unsound method, and yes, it falls under polygraph (minus the poly)...

advocatusdiaboli
02-29-2012, 11:34 AM
Thanks Brandon and the rest of the CGF volunteers.
Keep up the good work. CGF is a ray of hope on a dismal horizon in the PRK.
I wish I had time to volunteer again but money will have to continue to substitute until I have the time.