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Mstrty
02-23-2012, 5:15 PM
I am not familiar with ITAR (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Traffic_in_Arms_Regulations). Is there anything prohibiting, Sniper training, hand to hand combat, handgun defense, with anyone who is not in the US legally? What are your thoughts. Can a firearm training company require paperwork proving legal residence before training.

a1c
02-23-2012, 7:43 PM
From the same article:

A "U.S. person" can be
a U.S. citizen;
a permanent resident who does not work for a foreign company, a foreign government, or a foreign governmental agency/organization;
a political asylee;
a part of the U.S. government, or
a corporation, business, organization, or group that is incorporated in the United States under U.S. law.[20

Mstrty
02-23-2012, 8:01 PM
So can I E-verify every student prior to class? Can I notify INS or DHS if someone fails E-verify?

a1c
02-23-2012, 8:03 PM
So can I E-verify every student prior to class? Can I notify INS or DHS if someone fails E-verify?

The above means only permanent residents (green card holders) are eligible (provided they don't work for a foreign company).

I don't see a need for E-Verify when you just have to request their green card. E-Verify checks whether or not a foreigner can legally work in the US - permanent resident, but also visa workers, students with work permits, etc. But only permanent residents are ITAR-eligible. So their green card is all the documentation you need, as well as probably some pay stubs showing who their employer is (so you can make sure it's a US company). E-Verify doesn't provide this kind of information.

fquinonez
02-23-2012, 8:55 PM
First off, I don't see how ITAR (International Traffic in Arms Regulations) would even be related. ITAR regulates the export of items on the US Munitions List (USML) that is published and codified in the CFR. Selling a foreign national a gun would violate ITAR, but teaching them how to shoot safely, or unarmed self defense would not violate these regulations.

In fact, The Gun Store in Las Vegas, as well as the Waikiki Gun Club make tons of money letting foreign tourists shoot everything from 10/22s to fully automatic M60 machine guns. As long as the firearm stays within your control, you never transfered the item for export.

I ain't no lawyer, but that's how I see it.

Frank Q.

a1c
02-23-2012, 9:06 PM
I'm confused. If this is just about firearm training, I also don't see why ITAR is relevant here. Many non-US citizens follow such trainings at their local ranges.

In California, the non-US citizens, in order to be legally in possession of a firearm and/or ammunition, must either be a permanent resident (green card holder), or, if a non-immigrant, must possess a valid hunter's license from any US state.

Mstrty
02-23-2012, 11:50 PM
I apologize for not framing my sentences very well. I did however find all my questions answered in another forum. So the answer is....There is nothing illegal training foreign nationals here in the US.
Line up Chinese, Iranian, ect, foreign nationals and teach them all the defensive firearm skills you wish without fear of running a foul of any federal laws.

GNE
02-24-2012, 12:43 AM
ITAR also covers training in the use of items on the USML, so firearms training is definitely covered by ITAR. I remember reading it a while ago when trying to figure out if it was legal to take a fellow graduate student (but international) to the shooting range with me and ultimately decided that it wasn't worth touching with a 10 foot pole. Enforcement might be shoddy/nonexistent as I hear lots of anecdotal accounts of foreign nationals being allowed to rent firearms and (presumably) instruction on how to shoot safely, but shooting ranges have money and lawyers and I don't.

edit
I apologize for not framing my sentences very well. I did however find all my questions answered in another forum. So the answer is....There is nothing illegal training foreign nationals here in the US.
Line up Chinese, Iranian, ect, foreign nationals and teach them all the defensive firearm skills you wish without fear of running a foul of any federal laws.
Interesting; I'd like to see their reading of ITAR and USML if possible?

HellnBack
02-24-2012, 12:50 AM
The OP is asking if training persons who are not in the US legally constitutes violation but now he is saying nothing is illegal in training those foreign nationals. these foreign nationals could be US residents. they are two different personalities involved here.Am I missing something here?

dwtt
02-24-2012, 3:31 PM
I am not familiar with ITAR (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Traffic_in_Arms_Regulations). Is there anything prohibiting, Sniper training, hand to hand combat, handgun defense, with anyone who is not in the US legally? What are your thoughts. Can a firearm training company require paperwork proving legal residence before training.

I read through the US Munitions List in ITAR and the only thing covered in the area of training is training equipment and technical data. Since you are not exporting training equipment or data, you have nothing worry about. Your real issue, in my opinion, is the training of illegal aliens. If you are going to train illegal aliens, would you have to worry about federal laws regarding possession by illegal aliens?

Smokeybehr
02-25-2012, 5:20 PM
The OP is asking if training persons who are not in the US legally constitutes violation but now he is saying nothing is illegal in training those foreign nationals. these foreign nationals could be US residents. they are two different personalities involved here.Am I missing something here?

You're missing something. The OP is asking if it's kosher to offer firearms training to Non-Resident Aliens without running afoul of ITAR. The answer is essentially a maybe. If they are not lawfully admitted, then the answer is a definite no. If they are only here on a visa, then the answer is "It depends on where they're from". If they have a Resident Alien card (green card, though they're no green any more) and they work for an American company, they're good to go without restrictions, just like a citizen.

Mstrty
02-25-2012, 7:49 PM
You're missing something. The OP is asking if it's kosher to offer firearms training to Non-Resident Aliens without running afoul of ITAR. The answer is essentially a maybe. If they are not lawfully admitted, then the answer is a definite no. If they are only here on a visa, then the answer is "It depends on where they're from". If they have a Resident Alien card (green card, though they're no green any more) and they work for an American company, they're good to go without restrictions, just like a citizen.

How would an instructor know if they are legal or not? This is the crux of the quesiton. What happens if a student show up back in their home country teaching skills obtained in the US from a US instructor to enemys of the US? ITAR violation?