PDA

View Full Version : Can't make sense of shooting advice I was given.


JCBitB
02-21-2012, 1:55 PM
After I'm done shooting at the local range, I always like to take my targets over to the folks behind the counter for some diagnosis. The last time I was out there I shot 50 rounds through a 1.5-2 inch hole at 7 yards, with between 6-7 flyers. Fairly good for me, except the group was up and left an inch or so from point of aim. I was trying to squeeze the trigger as slowly as possible to work on trigger control.

The guys behind the counter actually told me to change my point of aim low and right to compensate, and I'd appreciate some help understanding why.

If it's likely I'm anticipating recoil by pushing (which I can't feel/see, but don't necessarily deny) shouldn't I be working on my trigger control? Would changing my point of aim be compensating for a sight alignment issue, or just banking on consistently poor trigger control? I know new shooters shouldn't be quick to adjust sights, and when I asked about it at the counter it was just a flat "no". I just can't wrap my head around what I'd ACTUALLY be compensating for...

I've just barely broken 500 rounds through my first handgun, so I'm no expert, and unfortunately I don't know anyone knowledgeable who can be there to watch me shoot. Anyone care to make sense of this for me?

zfields
02-21-2012, 1:59 PM
Dont aim different to make up for your flinch.

Please please please. Your doing nothing but hurting yourself in the long term.

jcaoloveshine
02-21-2012, 2:01 PM
Sigh, oftentimes gun counter guys know as much as you do, or worse, they think they know more.

That sounds like terrible advice to me. Rather than fix the issue, you're hacking at the branch by trying to compensate

Refer to this:

http://10point9.ie/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/target_shooting_diagnosis.jpg

My own personal method for shooting my 1911 (worth as much as you paid for it):

I squeeze the trigger straight back, finger perpendicular to the trigger.

Once I start the squeeze, my brain becomes autopilot. I am no longer thinking about the trigger squeeze, it is pure muscle memory. I cannot stop the action, I can only continue slow and smooth.

My focus at that point is on the sights and target. My eye is focusing the front sight, lining it up between the two dots of the rear.

15 shot groups at 7 yards using WWB 230gr FMJ, decent, but still got a lot of work to do to shoot better at distance:

http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/390714_2659883689854_1038750324_32579900_180261613 2_n.jpg

Intuitively I know when the shot will go off, but I never think about it.

I then hold the trigger back until it resets the single action.

Which gun are you shooting? What trigger? Trigger pound pull?

robcoe
02-21-2012, 2:03 PM
there is a chart around somewhere that describes various problems that can cause rounds to go off in different directions.

First thing I would do is shoot from a fixed position(sand bags work, basically take the shooter out of it and see where the gun shoots) if it's on target then the problem is with you, if it still shoots high-left, then adjust your sights.

jcaoloveshine
02-21-2012, 2:06 PM
^ agreed. try proper shooting fundamentals from a rest, that eliminates you as a variable, and that will tell you if you suck or your sights are off.

viet4lifeOC
02-21-2012, 2:08 PM
After I'm done shooting at the local range, I always like to take my targets over to the folks behind the counter for some diagnosis. The last time I was out there I shot 50 rounds through a 1.5-2 inch hole at 7 yards, with between 6-7 flyers. Fairly good for me, except the group was up and left an inch or so from point of aim. I was trying to squeeze the trigger as slowly as possible to work on trigger control.

The guys behind the counter actually told me to change my point of aim low and right to compensate, and I'd appreciate some help understanding why.

If it's likely I'm anticipating recoil by pushing (which I can't feel/see, but don't necessarily deny) shouldn't I be working on my trigger control? Would changing my point of aim be compensating for a sight alignment issue, or just banking on consistently poor trigger control? I know new shooters shouldn't be quick to adjust sights, and when I asked about it at the counter it was just a flat "no". I just can't wrap my head around what I'd ACTUALLY be compensating for...

I've just barely broken 500 rounds through my first handgun, so I'm no expert, and unfortunately I don't know anyone knowledgeable who can be there to watch me shoot. Anyone care to make sense of this for me?

You have a good head on your shoulder.

Shoot it with a rest.

JNunez23
02-21-2012, 2:16 PM
If you were anticipating the shot, you might be jerking the shot to the right regardless ( I was ) I don't know why they would ask you to aim low right though.

G60
02-21-2012, 2:28 PM
You were given bad advice. When I get home I'll post up some drills you can do. The chart is for shooting one hand unsupported btw, so it's not a good diagnosis tool for the shooting you're doing.

SouperMan
02-21-2012, 2:44 PM
FWIW, to learn not to anticipate and jerk I use a penny on the slide and dry fire. If the penny moves a lot, then something is amiss. If it is not, then I am reacting okay. The chart in post #3 is very useful; I use that and more often than not my copy gets given away to a newbie.

llamatrnr
02-21-2012, 2:48 PM
FWIW, to learn not to anticipate and jerk I use a penny on the slide and dry fire. If the penny moves a lot, then something is amiss. If it is not, then I am reacting okay. The chart in post #3 is very useful; I use that and more often than not my copy gets given away to a newbie.

...or an empty casing set over the front sight . . .

JCBitB
02-21-2012, 2:50 PM
Refer to this:


That chart is the reason I'm trying to figure out how to counteract "Pushing". I do dry fire exercises at home with an empty casing sitting on my slide, and rarely see it move on trigger break. Things could be changing when I'm at the range of course... Waiting to see some snap caps pop up at the LGS so I can test that. Maybe I need to work on follow through? Wouldn't know how to start though. Was under the impression that a good grip is all that can influence anything after the trigger breaks. I usually watch for point of impact over the top of my sights, I don't fire and then yank the gun away or anything goofy. Maybe I don't understand follow through though.


Once I start the squeeze, my brain becomes autopilot...

This has been a huge focus for me too. I take up the slack while working on sight alignment and then begin a deliberately slow and inevitable trigger pull. I don't think about it after I get past taking up the slack, I just focus on maintaining the sights until the bang comes and the casing bounces off my face (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=535268) :p


Which gun are you shooting? What trigger? Trigger pound pull?

Glock 34, stock trigger. Interwebz says ~5.5 is stock, but I've never verified or anything.

Many thanks to all who have replied. I am so glad I found this community. Gonna research follow through, and make sure I fire a few clips from a rest next time I get out to the range.

jcaoloveshine
02-21-2012, 2:53 PM
Ah ok.

The way I shoot a Glock is different than a 1911.

Due to the DA striker trigger, I have to stage the gun.

In a way, it becomes almost a 2-stage trigger.

Rather than shoot it as a SAO trigger where I autopilot immediately, I pull back about halfway, then go into autopilot for the last couple millimeters before the shot breaks.

What can help a lot for Glocks is to get a 3.5lb disconnector. 5.5lbs stock is about right.

After installing one in my friends Glock 19, I am much more accurate with it and can shoot very tight at 7-10 yards.

Follow-through refers to how you handle the gun after the shot breaks. To put it simply, I just make sure my grip does not change and my trigger finger does not shift and stays back on the trigger completely until I let it reset after the gun is finished recoiling.

9mmepiphany
02-21-2012, 2:58 PM
Don't listen to the guys at the counter.

I've heard guys at the counter who learned everything they know about shooting from video games...or worst, listening to their co-workers. Their have been some working the counter who knew what they were talking about, but they are rare.

Keep shooting the way you are until you stop having flyers. The point is to get a nice tight group which takes consistency and then shifting the whole group by changing your grip (if it is a bit off) or the sights. There is nothing worst than Chasing Your Shots, which is trying to move your POA to correct for your POI while in the middle of a string of fire during practice.

That your POI is different from your POA can be due to a number of factors. It is hard to tell without seeing how you grip, your arm position or your pressure points as you squeeze the trigger. The chart posted above has limited use as it is designed to diagnose shooting issues of a shooter shooting one handed.

If you are using balanced Isosceles arm position, a thumbs forward grip and indeed pressing the trigger straight back (the kind of gun (trigger) has an effect here) it is very likely that you are looking over your sights as the shot breaks.

Are you seeing your sights rise as the shot breaks?

JCBitB
02-21-2012, 3:15 PM
The chart is for shooting one hand unsupported btw, so it's not a good diagnosis tool for the shooting you're doing.

:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm: Glad you told me. I eagerly await your drills

To put it simply, I just make sure my grip does not change and my trigger finger does not shift and stays back on the trigger completely until I let it reset after the gun is finished recoiling.

I think we may be on to something here... I like to push the fat of my support hand palm below the thumb into the frame with the thumb of my firing hand to get more solid contact. Seems like it'd be impossible not to change squeezing pressure during recoil. I'm gonna keep this in mind for sure, thanks!

I've heard guys at the counter who learned everything they know about shooting from video games...

I'd laugh, but I've learned everything I know from things I've read on the internet. I have no room to judge


Are you seeing your sights rise as the shot breaks?

In dry fire exercises? No. Live fire? Only as muzzleflip from what I can tell

Turo
02-21-2012, 3:33 PM
The people that told you to change your point of aim are assuming that you aren't flinching even a little bit, and that it's the gun's sights that are off.

If you know that the group being high left is because of you, then disregard what they said, they don't know your situation. If you shot that way from a bench rest, and the groups are still high left, then you should think about adjusting sights.

tbc
02-21-2012, 3:48 PM
What was your handgun? I shot high left with long overtravel trigger handgun. To overcome my problem, I concentrated on the way the trigger pull. Slowly, follow through, and straight back. Just my two cents.

23 Blast
02-21-2012, 3:49 PM
Somebody somewhere has got to spoof that shooting diagnosis chart where every spot on it says "Adjust sights" "Adjust sights" "Adjust sights" or even better "You suck" "You suck" "You suck"

:D

OldShooter32
02-21-2012, 3:55 PM
Get a DA revolver and mix live rounds with dummy -- or none at all. Three or four live and two or three dummy, then without looking, spin the cylinder and close it, then you will be doing a "ball and dummy drill" on your own. Any flinch will show when you hit a 'dummy' round. It is a great flinch-breaker!

JCBitB
02-21-2012, 6:31 PM
it is very likely that you are looking over your sights as the shot breaks.

Thanks! Now that I got home and had a chance to read your post with gun in hand I see what you are talking about and I'm pretty sure you're exactly right. Pretty amazing you could call that from reading about a shot group.:eek:

I've been fooling myself using the empty casing for dry firing too, because of the cutout placement on my g34 slide. Shoulda caught that earlier, lol. But definitely got a list of things to keep in mind for next time.

AeroEngi
02-21-2012, 6:35 PM
Get a DA revolver and mix live rounds with dummy -- or none at all. Three or four live and two or three dummy, then without looking, spin the cylinder and close it, then you will be doing a "ball and dummy drill" on your own. Any flinch will show when you hit a 'dummy' round. It is a great flinch-breaker!

You can do that with auto pistols too. Randomly load up 3 or 4 mags with live and dummy rounds. Mix them up so you lose track of how you loaded each of the mags.

HighValleyRanch
02-21-2012, 8:50 PM
I usually watch for point of impact over the top of my sights, I don't fire and then yank the gun away or anything goofy. Maybe I don't understand follow through though.

Lack of follow through. You should be focusing on your sight through the shot. If you have time to see the impact, you are switching your focus right at the critical moment and losing concentration. Focus on sight alignment THROUGH THE SHOT BREAK, and memorize what the sights looked like as the shot goes off. Then after you come back to hold from the recoil, you can check the target to confirm your mental call and the memorized sight alignment picture. After a while, it's like an instant photo of the sights at the break. If you are doing everything correctly, you will actually be able to call exactly where the shot went before even looking at the target.

When you get into faster sequential fire, the ability to focus on the front sight THROUGH THE SHOT BREAK put you leap years ahead on following the sights right into the followup shot.
You don't want to get into the habit of looking at the impact in between shots on rapid fire.

tbc
02-21-2012, 9:41 PM
Lack of follow through. You should be focusing on your sight through the shot. If you have time to see the impact, you are switching your focus right at the critical moment and losing concentration. Focus on sight alignment THROUGH THE SHOT BREAK, and memorize what the sights looked like as the shot goes off. Then after you come back to hold from the recoil, you can check the target to confirm your mental call and the memorized sight alignment picture. After a while, it's like an instant photo of the sights at the break. If you are doing everything correctly, you will actually be able to call exactly where the shot went before even looking at the target.

When you get into faster sequential fire, the ability to focus on the front sight THROUGH THE SHOT BREAK put you leap years ahead on following the sights right into the followup shot.
You don't want to get into the habit of looking at the impact in between shots on rapid fire.

Need to take notes again :).

9mmepiphany
02-21-2012, 10:05 PM
I think we may be on to something here... I like to push the fat of my support hand palm below the thumb into the frame with the thumb of my firing hand to get more solid contact. Seems like it'd be impossible not to change squeezing pressure during recoil. I'm gonna keep this in mind for sure, thanks!
It isn't the pressure change during recoil that affects your shooting accurately.

It is that your pressing with your thumb is indicative of milking the grip...and that does affect your accuracy.

huckberry668
02-21-2012, 10:10 PM
The guy behind the counter just works there. Don't assume they know more than anyone else.

I'm more concerned with the fliers. Most people point to the main cluster and congratulate themselves but the fliers tells the real story.

I think you're jumping the gun a little on the POI issue. Bench the gun on a sandbag sitting down and shoot groups to see if the gun is mechanically zero'ed, yes, 7 yards too. If it shoots to the same POI as your offhand groups, your skill isn't too much a problem. If it doesn't, you've confirmed you got work to do.

Dry fire helps you with muscle memory but for some (mostly newer shooters) all good memory go out the window when anticipating live rounds to go "bang". I call it the 'live round syndrome".

Make a few dummy rounds. Mix a couple with a couple of live rounds in your hand and load them in the mag w/o looking. Load the gun and shoot like you normally would. You'll find out what you're doing wrong real quick when the striker falls on a dummy.

The trick is to shoot your gun as if you're dry firing on every shot. When you find yourself anticipating the shot, lower your gun. relax and breath. don't practice bad habits and make every shot count. For beginners, it ain't a surprise, it ain't right.

Breaking bad shooting habits is the hardest thing to do. And most 'experienced' bad shot will not become a better shot without some serious effort. I've seen my share of people quit shooting because of this.

In general, when the striker/hammer falls on a dummy and,
1. If you don't see where the front sight went, you had your eyes closed because you're anticipating the shot.
2. If you see the front sight, you now know which direction the front sight went. In general, you either flinched and shot low or 'reached' (not enough finger on the trigger and shot left or too much finger on the trigger and shot right (for right handers with 2-hand hold).

Above points are not definitive until I see your stance, hold and other little things in person. If you're in LA area, I'll meet you to share for free.

Dhena81
02-21-2012, 10:15 PM
Lack of follow through. You should be focusing on your sight through the shot. If you have time to see the impact, you are switching your focus right at the critical moment and losing concentration. Focus on sight alignment THROUGH THE SHOT BREAK, and memorize what the sights looked like as the shot goes off. Then after you come back to hold from the recoil, you can check the target to confirm your mental call and the memorized sight alignment picture. After a while, it's like an instant photo of the sights at the break. If you are doing everything correctly, you will actually be able to call exactly where the shot went before even looking at the target.

When you get into faster sequential fire, the ability to focus on the front sight THROUGH THE SHOT BREAK put you leap years ahead on following the sights right into the followup shot.
You don't want to get into the habit of looking at the impact in between shots on rapid fire.

This is great advice I've never really thought of that I've caught myself doing that when I shoot paper but not when I shoot steel. That's probably why I can shoot a 8" steel circle at 35 yards all day long but I most of the time get horrible groups at 25 yards on paper.

I was going to say adjust the sights since your getting better groups than 95% of the people I see at the range if your really shooting 1.5" groups at 7 yards.

::Edit I thought I might add that its not a bad thing to change your point of aim because when your in the real world and not a flat and squared range sometimes your actually off center and you and the gun aren't level which can throw shots.

bigcalidave
02-22-2012, 8:11 AM
All these comments about flinching, he's shooting inch and a half groups an inch off the point of aim?? Do exactly what you are doing !!! An inch at seven yards isnt even something I can see. Are you shooting bullseye matches? Try shooting at a bunch of small targets, one shot per target circle... Do you still hit within an inch moving quickly between them? Doing pretty damn well for a new glock.

Kempfer
02-22-2012, 9:08 AM
After I'm done shooting at the local range, I always like to take my targets over to the folks behind the counter for some diagnosis. The last time I was out there I shot 50 rounds through a 1.5-2 inch hole at 7 yards, with between 6-7 flyers. Fairly good for me, except the group was up and left an inch or so from point of aim. I was trying to squeeze the trigger as slowly as possible to work on trigger control.

The guys behind the counter actually told me to change my point of aim low and right to compensate, and I'd appreciate some help understanding why.

If it's likely I'm anticipating recoil by pushing (which I can't feel/see, but don't necessarily deny) shouldn't I be working on my trigger control? Would changing my point of aim be compensating for a sight alignment issue, or just banking on consistently poor trigger control? I know new shooters shouldn't be quick to adjust sights, and when I asked about it at the counter it was just a flat "no". I just can't wrap my head around what I'd ACTUALLY be compensating for...

I've just barely broken 500 rounds through my first handgun, so I'm no expert, and unfortunately I don't know anyone knowledgeable who can be there to watch me shoot. Anyone care to make sense of this for me?

To diagnose a flinch

Get a dummy round and mix it in your magazine. If you can't fool yourself into forgetting where the dummy round is then grab two magazines and 10 rounds + the dummy round. Randomly fill each and mix it in your pocket.

Shoot a string and you will see if you have a flinch.

Best Trigger Control Exercise
Set up at 15-25 yards, whatever maximum yardage you can put 10 rounds on a NRA-B16 target (you can print these out on paper). Note not 10 rounds in the black but 10 rounds anywhere on the paper.

Grab 10 rounds and put them in your pocket and load only one round in your magazine.

a) With an empty gun dry fire at the NRA target 5 times. Go for perfect sight picture and good trigger control.
b) Load the magazine with one round into your gun and fire that round.
c) Repeat 5 perfect dry fires with empty gun.
d) Load magazine with one round then load your gun and fire that round.
e) Repeat c)-d) until you have shot 10 rounds total.

Bring your target back mark the hits and misses and score:
10-ring = 10 points
9-ring = 9 points
.
.
.
6-ring = 6 points
else = 0 points

Record score and date to keep as a record to keep track of improvement.

Repeat 5 times.

This drill sucks but it is awesome because you are working on good trigger control AND learning how to dry fire. Alot of people say just Dry Fire and you will get better. But that is BS because if you don't know how to shoot, how would you know if you are dry firing correctly??

Diagnosing Shooting
Nothing smaller than 6" targets. No distance closer than 15 yards no further than 25 for beginners.

Anything closer than 15 yards and you might as well be working on speed and not accuracy no matter the size of the target. The larger distances to the target multiplies the errors in your trigger control, sight picture and grip. Shooting small targets at close ranges do nothing to help you diagnose errors in the fundamentals.

DVSmith
02-22-2012, 9:16 AM
The advice on maintaining sight alignment and sight picture through the shot and concentrating on follow through may help you quite a bit. Sometimes shooters will lift their heads to watch the shot. As your do that, you sight alignment and sight picture will drift. Without watching you, it is really hard to diagnose. The chart can be instructive, but it isn't the only set of actions that cause those symptoms.

BunnySlayer
02-22-2012, 10:08 AM
Most problems of this nature can be cured without firing a shot. Make it a point to do safe, dry practice with your gun every day. Simply start with a safe, unloaded firearm, in an area where you've made sure there is no ammo and no distractions and practice pressing the trigger until the hammer falls and the sights do not move. Keep your focus on the front sight, even after the trigger breaks. Then just repeat about ten thousand times until it's second nature. If your developing a bad habit, it does no good to put rounds downrange and only serves to make it worse.

Sturnovik
02-22-2012, 10:14 AM
It isn't the pressure change during recoil that affects your shooting accurately.

It is that your pressing with your thumb is indicative of milking the grip...and that does affect your accuracy.

I tend to agree.

Dont you do gun classes 9mmepiphany? Or was that another forum member I'm thinking of.

9mmepiphany
02-22-2012, 10:37 AM
I do teach...mostly 1:1 nowadays, but I used to travel around the country team teaching. We concentrated of the Fundamentals of shooting as opposed to the more fun high-speed/low-drag tacticool stuff.

That is where my insight into common errors that shooters experience comes from. There aren't many secrets to learning to shoot well, if is just that most folks don't understand how to teach it.

Army
02-22-2012, 1:58 PM
Front sight focus...press trigger.

Do NOT look at your grouping until the string is done, maintain focus ALWAYS on the front sight. After a few hundred rounds, it becomes instinctive (muscle memory). When your hold and sight picture are good, the rounds will impact where you want them....like it or not :)

If after you've done all this over and over and over you are still getting high right groups in small clusters, NOW you can move your sights to correct, and continue with the same drills.

paul0660
02-22-2012, 2:00 PM
Great thread, especially that last post.

Lead Waster
02-22-2012, 3:28 PM
Would it be useful to use a completely black piece of paper, then stick on some coloured dot as the target and shoot at that? The black paper will prevent you from seeing where you are hitting and maybe remove the temptation to see where each shot goes? Then retract the target after 10 rounds and see where they went?

Some good advice here. I plan to use them on my next range trip.

I shoot my 9mm CZ's pretty well, but with a .45, I tend to flinch or something as I have scattered large groups at 7 yards. Might as well practice the basics with a 1911 and transfer it to other guns after getting the "fundamentals" down.

It's taking me a long time to "recover" from never learning to shoot properly. My shooting "instruction" was basically my gun owning coworkers handing me a gun and saying "go ahead and shoot it". The first gun I shot (15 years ago) was a .357 magnum snub nose because my friends are idiots. Now that I've been bitten by USPSA and am interested in actually shooting well.

Shooting seems to be a lot like golf, you can't just swing away, and some techniques are not really "natural", like rotating your weak hand wrist to get a good thumbs up/forward grip. For years I was doing "teacup" and whatever else I saw on TV.

It doesn't help if your "shooting buddies" all suck too.

carloooo
02-22-2012, 6:53 PM
It doesn't help if your "shooting buddies" all suck too.

ouch man, that hit close to home for me :laugh:

9mmepiphany
02-22-2012, 9:12 PM
It's taking me a long time to "recover" from never learning to shoot properly... ...Now that I've been bitten by USPSA and am interested in actually shooting well.

...Shooting seems to be a lot like golf, you can't just swing away, and some techniques are not really "natural"

...It doesn't help if your "shooting buddies" all suck too.
Much of shooting is counter-intuitive...and the philosophy of recoil management has evolved over the years. It is actually easier today...much easier on your joints... but more counter-intuitive :p

I'm in the Bay Area a lot, if you are interested in learning how to do it correctly...and really shame your shooting buddies

randomBytes
02-22-2012, 9:55 PM
The g34 has a 3.5 conector standard - equates to about a 4lb break.
It helps to "follow through" - just hold the trigger all the way back for a one count,
by the time you've thought about it you've done it ;-)
If you can shoot the gun off a rest do so - it is in fact possible that the sights need adjusting. Your group at 7 yards may not be the best guide.
If you can shoot a good group at 25 yards - where you cannot see the holes,
I think it is reasonable to adjust the sights to bring to your point of aim.

FWIW At 7 yards (with g34) my front sight covers the point of impact, at 25 yards it is a 6 o'clock hold on about the 10 ring to hit the same point.

Everyone flinches from time to time, the ball & dummy exercise described above is useful for detecting it, if you cannot call your shots yet (mental picture of where the front sight was as it starts to lift during recoil).

As noted above

Sturnovik
02-23-2012, 8:53 AM
I do teach...mostly 1:1 nowadays, but I used to travel around the country team teaching. We concentrated of the Fundamentals of shooting as opposed to the more fun high-speed/low-drag tacticool stuff.

That is where my insight into common errors that shooters experience comes from. There aren't many secrets to learning to shoot well, if is just that most folks don't understand how to teach it.

Awesome, let me know if your doing anymore classes.

I'm still trying to get some of the more basic drills down, like Pistol failure drills/double tap etc.

JCBitB
02-23-2012, 10:04 AM
Today's the day I get to put some of this great advice to practice. Got some B-27's, some other printable targets to try out, and a head full of considerations. Maybe I'll post some of my better groups if I don't embarrass myself too badly.

23's Dad
02-24-2012, 9:18 AM
All the above advice seems logical, and helpful, I'm just really surprised that this suggestion didn't happen sooner.

Get a .22 pistol or conversion kit and then shoot more. Dry firing helps, but you still can't see actual results.

I usually burn a brick of .22s for every box of centerfire that I shoot. I shoot .22 before and after I fire my centerfire handguns. It helps me by warming up on good front sight focus, alignment, and trigger control. As soon as I feel like I'm reverting to bad habits while shooting centerfire (I tend to flinch or anticipate the recoil), I switch back to the rimfire pistol. Bad habits die hard, and you'll see your errors in the first few rounds after you switch to rimfire.

Keep at it, and it gets better!

tuna quesadilla
02-24-2012, 9:21 AM
Front sight focus...press trigger.

Do NOT look at your grouping until the string is done, maintain focus ALWAYS on the front sight. After a few hundred rounds, it becomes instinctive (muscle memory). When your hold and sight picture are good, the rounds will impact where you want them....like it or not :)

If after you've done all this over and over and over you are still getting high right groups in small clusters, NOW you can move your sights to correct, and continue with the same drills.

This is the biggest thing for me. This was the last puzzle piece that finally clicked into place and made me (what I consider anyways) a good shot. That front sight is your very best friend. It should always be razor sharp in your vision, and everything else slightly blurred.

jakuda
02-24-2012, 10:44 AM
https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=523853

Lead Waster
02-24-2012, 10:51 AM
All the above advice seems logical, and helpful, I'm just really surprised that this suggestion didn't happen sooner.

Get a .22 pistol or conversion kit and then shoot more. Dry firing helps, but you still can't see actual results.

I usually burn a brick of .22s for every box of centerfire that I shoot. I shoot .22 before and after I fire my centerfire handguns. It helps me by warming up on good front sight focus, alignment, and trigger control. As soon as I feel like I'm reverting to bad habits while shooting centerfire (I tend to flinch or anticipate the recoil), I switch back to the rimfire pistol. Bad habits die hard, and you'll see your errors in the first few rounds after you switch to rimfire.

Keep at it, and it gets better!

I actually started doing this too. My groups with 9mm is actually better than my .22 shots though. Might be the .22's sights are messing me up. However, I agree that warming up with the .22 is nice because it kind of relaxes you in terms of the sound of the shots and the slight recoil. Kind of eases you into the larger caliber. Not to mention easing you into the shooting session cheaply!

Lead Waster
02-24-2012, 10:53 AM
Much of shooting is counter-intuitive...and the philosophy of recoil management has evolved over the years. It is actually easier today...much easier on your joints... but more counter-intuitive :p

I'm in the Bay Area a lot, if you are interested in learning how to do it correctly...and really shame your shooting buddies

What part of the BA are you usually in? I work in Sunnyvale, and most of my range time is lunch time at Reeds in Santa Clara!

9mmepiphany
02-24-2012, 1:59 PM
I'm in Sacramento, I just drive down when clients want to take lessons...it's only 1.5 hours.

I'll be in Mountain View this weekend...but only because I'm taking a MBC class Sat and Sun

opos
02-24-2012, 2:12 PM
Practice does not make perfect.....only "perfect practice makes perfect"...bad practice keeps on making bad results...

Opos has spake

tbc
02-24-2012, 3:02 PM
Practice makes permanent :oji:

SWMP15
02-24-2012, 9:25 PM
Dry fire, then dry fire some more, and after that dry fire even more.....

huckberry668
02-24-2012, 10:20 PM
Dry fire re-enforces muscle memory. It's always good to dry fire. But 'live round syndrome' is mental and can only be identified and dealt with using dummy rounds and a lot of discipline on basics.

9mmepiphany
02-24-2012, 11:38 PM
... if you are dry firing incorrectly, all you're doing is ingraining bad habits

bczrx
02-25-2012, 8:42 AM
The good news is you are being precise if you are getting a sub-2" group. The accuracy is the issue. I am not as precise as you yet, but getting there. The quotes below are all the steps that have helped me move from 7" groups to 3.5" groups in one year, and to have those groups be closer to the POA, instead of low right or low left.

To diagnose a flinch

Get a dummy round and mix it in your magazine. If you can't fool yourself into forgetting where the dummy round is then grab two magazines and 10 rounds + the dummy round. Randomly fill each and mix it in your pocket.

Shoot a string and you will see if you have a flinch.

Best Trigger Control Exercise
Set up at 15-25 yards, whatever maximum yardage you can put 10 rounds on a NRA-B16 target (you can print these out on paper). Note not 10 rounds in the black but 10 rounds anywhere on the paper.

Grab 10 rounds and put them in your pocket and load only one round in your magazine.

a) With an empty gun dry fire at the NRA target 5 times. Go for perfect sight picture and good trigger control.
b) Load the magazine with one round into your gun and fire that round.
c) Repeat 5 perfect dry fires with empty gun.
d) Load magazine with one round then load your gun and fire that round.
e) Repeat c)-d) until you have shot 10 rounds total.

Bring your target back mark the hits and misses and score:
10-ring = 10 points
9-ring = 9 points
.
.
.
6-ring = 6 points
else = 0 points

Record score and date to keep as a record to keep track of improvement.

Repeat 5 times.

This drill sucks but it is awesome because you are working on good trigger control AND learning how to dry fire. Alot of people say just Dry Fire and you will get better. But that is BS because if you don't know how to shoot, how would you know if you are dry firing correctly??

Diagnosing Shooting
Nothing smaller than 6" targets. No distance closer than 15 yards no further than 25 for beginners.

Anything closer than 15 yards and you might as well be working on speed and not accuracy no matter the size of the target. The larger distances to the target multiplies the errors in your trigger control, sight picture and grip. Shooting small targets at close ranges do nothing to help you diagnose errors in the fundamentals.

Front sight focus...press trigger.

Do NOT look at your grouping until the string is done, maintain focus ALWAYS on the front sight. After a few hundred rounds, it becomes instinctive (muscle memory). When your hold and sight picture are good, the rounds will impact where you want them....like it or not :)

If after you've done all this over and over and over you are still getting high right groups in small clusters, NOW you can move your sights to correct, and continue with the same drills.



I've noticed the biggest improvement in my shooting come from the following though, as it allows me to shoot enough to improve those habits, without being broke or my wife divorcing me.

All the above advice seems logical, and helpful, I'm just really surprised that this suggestion didn't happen sooner.

Get a .22 pistol or conversion kit and then shoot more. Dry firing helps, but you still can't see actual results.

I usually burn a brick of .22s for every box of centerfire that I shoot. I shoot .22 before and after I fire my centerfire handguns. It helps me by warming up on good front sight focus, alignment, and trigger control. As soon as I feel like I'm reverting to bad habits while shooting centerfire (I tend to flinch or anticipate the recoil), I switch back to the rimfire pistol. Bad habits die hard, and you'll see your errors in the first few rounds after you switch to rimfire.

Keep at it, and it gets better!

The one thing about the .22lr advice though is that I would modify it by saying you should get a .22lr that is similar to your regular shootin iron. If you are shooting a glock, than a striker-fired .22lr pistol would be my recommendation. If it is a 1911, than a SA .22lr pistol [I like the Ruger .22/.45, as the grip angle is similar] would be the best. If it is a DA/SA pistol, than something like the new Ruger SR22, or another DA/SA .22lr pistol would be best. Of course, a conversion kit on top of your frame would also reinforce the trigger control work, as you would be actually using the SAME trigger. However, the good kits cost the same [or more] than many .22lr pistols do.

If you want to improve with a revolver, then the same lesson applies. A DA .22 revolver would be best training for a DA large caliber revolver, and the same for SA revolvers.

I use a Ruger Mark II .22/.45 and a Ruger SP101 .22lr most days. It took me over a 1000 rounds in the SP101 to get the knack of it, as I generally shoot semi-autos the most. It wasn't until the 3rd brick that I really started to analyze what I was doing and experimenting with the SP101. Now I can shoot it almost as well as my .22/.45 in SA mode [but not quite: SP101 has about a 4lb SA trigger, while my .22/.45 has a 2lb12oz trigger].

I bring this up because I don't think you should get a .22lr revolver to train for a Glock. It will force you to work on fundamentals, but it isn't as natural of a transition, so grip angle, trigger feel and let off, and recoil impulse directions will all feel different, in addition to the difference in caliber fired.

Lastly, it would be best if the sights on your practice gun were similar to the sights on the other, as it makes you work with the same sight picture.

Hmm. I think I need to log off and take my .22s to the range again.

Ignore the advice of the guy at the range.

Oh, and the target/chart that was shown is for right handed shooters. It needs to be flipped right-to-left for lefties.