PDA

View Full Version : Who makes the best 1911, .45 ACP pistol


littlejake
02-21-2012, 2:00 PM
I know this will generate many different opinions. And, I know this question has been asked before. I've got up to about $5k to drop on a new .45. Back in the 1960s and 70s, I'd see the WWII generation guys with their tricked out Colt 1911 pistol and I wanted one. Back then the route to a target capable .45 was to put money into the Colt platform. I had an old mil 1911A1 that rattled in battery and shot so loose that it threw dirt on targets.

In the 1980s, I had a Colt series 80 Gold Cup that I hand-loaded a 200gr lead SWC with 4grs of 700X -- and it was the most accurate 1911 I've owned. I could hit the X ring at 50 yards with that pistol. (Yeah, I sold it in 1994)

Since then, I have owned Kimbers and Springfield Armory 1911s.

Now, the road seems to be specialty manufacturers such as Bauer, Ed Brown, et cetera.

Keeping in mind that it has to be CA rostered -- please give me some input on what I should be considering -- and please expand on your personal experience. All inputs appreciated.

Kindest Regards,

Jake

ArmyMedicMoose
02-21-2012, 2:06 PM
my sig sub 1000, but my TRP still king of the safe

Mr310
02-21-2012, 2:06 PM
STI, custom fitted to exactly what you want. Boom.

luckystrike
02-21-2012, 2:09 PM
out of the box I would say sig. money not being an issue maybe a les baer or wilson combat, springfields TRP/operators are awesome.

45acpfan
02-21-2012, 2:09 PM
Jake, with that amount of money I will go full custom if I were you.

I like this one: http://www.guncrafterindustries.com/

fanof1911forlife
02-21-2012, 2:12 PM
I agree with 45acpfan, the GI50M2 is my choice if I were in your position.

LoadedM333
02-21-2012, 2:14 PM
out of the box I would say sig. money not being an issue maybe a les baer or wilson combat, springfields TRP/operators are awesome.
What he said and maybe NightHawk.

ArmyMedicMoose
02-21-2012, 2:15 PM
I'm just saying.....Sold my Thunder Ranch and I still have my Springfield TRP

Coded-Dude
02-21-2012, 2:15 PM
:popcorn:

sholling
02-21-2012, 2:16 PM
When I was looking for a hand made 1911 I went with a S&W Performance Center 1911 (http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/11750) finished in Melonite over stainless. That leaves you about $3000 for ammo.

discoed
02-21-2012, 2:17 PM
How about a Wilson Tactical Super Grade (Black/Gray) (WTSG-A-ACA) / Steel. It's on the roster. Can't go wrong with this.

Steyrlp10
02-21-2012, 2:18 PM
I like all of them :)

cali45
02-21-2012, 2:24 PM
colt, no doubt about it. Thats like saying who makes the best cars? Just like Mercedes was the first to make an automobile, it still is the best, unless of course you want the Lamborghinis, Ferraris, which would be the les baers, wilsons, and nighthawks, which also cost more.

ArmyMedicMoose
02-21-2012, 2:27 PM
colt, no doubt about it. Thats like saying who makes the best cars? Just like Mercedes was the first to make an automobile, it still is the best, unless of course you want the Lamborghinis, Ferraris, which would be the les baers, wilsons, and nighthawks, which also cost more.

REALLY.. REALLY? colt like harley they suck a** but for some reason. people still want to keep fixing them....

keenkeen
02-21-2012, 2:28 PM
A couple of "off-roster" suggestions already...

Don't forget the OP said:

Keeping in mind that it has to be CA rostered

thefinnatic
02-21-2012, 2:31 PM
I'm just saying.....Sold my Thunder Ranch and I still have my Springfield TRP

Same here. I sold my Baer and still have my Springfields. YMMV of course.

ArmyMedicMoose
02-21-2012, 2:32 PM
I know this will generate many different opinions. And, I know this question has been asked before. I've got up to about $5k to drop on a new .45. Back in the 1960s and 70s, I'd see the WWII generation guys with their tricked out Colt 1911 pistol and I wanted one. Back then the route to a target capable .45 was to put money into the Colt platform. I had an old mil 1911A1 that rattled in battery and shot so loose that it threw dirt on targets.

In the 1980s, I had a Colt series 80 Gold Cup that I hand-loaded a 200gr lead SWC with 4grs of 700X -- and it was the most accurate 1911 I've owned. I could hit the X ring at 50 yards with that pistol. (Yeah, I sold it in 1994)

Since then, I have owned Kimbers and Springfield Armory 1911s.

Now, the road seems to be specialty manufacturers such as Bauer, Ed Brown, et cetera.

Keeping in mind that it has to be CA rostered -- please give me some input on what I should be considering -- and please expand on your personal experience. All inputs appreciated.

Kindest Regards,

Jake
I have a few 1911 you can come shoot if you like......

AeroEngi
02-21-2012, 2:38 PM
If I had that much cash to spend on a 1911, I'd go with a Wilson Combat or Ed Brown.

hairtumor
02-21-2012, 2:40 PM
as far as being off roster just SSE them, that said I love my Dan Wesson but having that kind of cash to spend go full custom

Dark Mod
02-21-2012, 2:43 PM
Might as well go full custom, but you can find Baers, wilsons, and Nighthawks in gunstores all around these parts.

45acpfan
02-21-2012, 2:44 PM
Seems like OP is not new with the 1911 world, he just want some inputs what to get (and by mentioning $5K, I assume he wants something special/ one of the best).

Coded-Dude
02-21-2012, 2:44 PM
http://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Glock-1911.jpg

:hide:

ArmyMedicMoose
02-21-2012, 2:46 PM
http://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Glock-1911.jpg

:hide:

That pic makes me sick...

jcaoloveshine
02-21-2012, 2:46 PM
Production

Springfield TRP is awesome but it has MIM parts. The TRP Operator is a sick gun though, if you can get over MIM at a price point of $1500-$1800.

Dan Wesson is probably my choice at this price range of $1200-$1500. Once CZ owned them however their price went up a few hundred bucks without much noticeable increase in quality. They are great guns, lock up tight and shoot well.

Semicustom

Either of the semicustom shops would suit you well, leaving you about 2-2.5k left over for ammo.

Baer- I own a TRS, great gun. Accurate, reliable, fitted well. Bluing starts to wear after a few months though. The tritium insert on my front sight came out, talked to Les Baer Sr. himself and it will be back on my doorstep 23 days after it left my doorstep at a total cost of $15 for me to ship to them insured Priority for $400. They ship back 2-day Fedex. Great service. Best semicustom buy for $1200-2000.

My Baer TRS:

http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/376391_2407141051446_1038750324_32472953_212023694 2_n.jpg

Their guns are more classic styled 1911s built hard and tight the old fashioned way. If you want a classic blued 1911 that locks up like a vault, get a Baer.

All their guns come with a base 3" at 50 yards 10-shot guarantee, for $300 more it upgrades to 1.5" at 50 yards.

This is an inside look at the shop:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dpdy8QQ-Y-Q



Wilson- No personal experience, but again, a great shop.

Ed Brown- They make good guns, their customer service leaves something to be desired.

Nighthawk- A really hot shop right now. Couple smiths left Wilson Combat and formed this shop, currently my favorite semicustom shop.

I'm paying off a Nighthawk 10-8 right now and it has the SMOOTHEST action of any 1911. The slide and rails feel like they are gliding on butter. It is a tight gun, but not bank vault tight like the Baer. The finish is also much better, but then again it's the Diamond Black finish which runs $600 alone. Of course, this is a $2900 gun versus my Baer which is a $1800 gun.

The Nighthawk 10-8 w/o Dawson rail:

http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/418132_311053092277452_132963146753115_776739_1774 311066_n.jpg

I highly suggest Nighthawk for the $2000-3000 range, especially the Predator since it has a bull barrel that makes shooting 45acp hardball feel like +P 9mm.

Full Custom

If you wanna go full custom, Pistol Dynamics, Heirloom Custom, Grey Guns, Rogers Precision are a few top shops. Of course, you are gonna spend AT LEAST $5000 and wait 1-1.5 years. But you will have a gun unique to yourself. Building a full custom is half the fun, the interaction and feedback you get from some of the top smiths in the world is worth the price alone.

Just remember, past $1500 the 1911 game is one of diminishing returns. It's like getting a Ferrari vs. Lamborghini vs. Bentley at that point. But if you got the money, you can get it any way you want.

littlejake
02-21-2012, 3:13 PM
Seems like OP is not new with the 1911 world, he just want some inputs what to get (and by mentioning $5K, I assume he wants something special/ one of the best).

BINGO! :D

Some really good suggestions in this thread.

RealBarber
02-21-2012, 3:23 PM
colt like harley they suck a**

wow, very scientific analysis

for me it starts and ends with Colt, they're great out of the box and they're a great platform to customize however you want

id rather get a Colt 1991/Series 70/Special Combat Government and have the Colt Custom Shop make it exactly how I want than give Nighthawk/Wilson/ect a couple extra thousand dollars to give me their version of a Colt

jcaoloveshine
02-21-2012, 3:30 PM
wow, very scientific analysis

for me it starts and ends with Colt, they're great out of the box and they're a great platform to customize however you want

id rather get a Colt 1991/Series 70/Special Combat Government and have the Colt Custom Shop make it exactly how I want than give Nighthawk/Wilson/ect a couple extra thousand dollars to give me their version of a Colt

That's a little unfair judgment, don't you think?

Wilson/NH have great smiths that know how to make the gun well and run right.

It's certainly not "their version of the Colt", but an exemplary version of the 1911 platform in general. Colt might have made the 1911, but these semicustom shops made it better.

Colt Custom shop probably does great work too, but the amount of expertise and experience the specialized shops have is staggering. From what I remember, Colt's shop does exemplary cosmetic work like engraving and Royal bluing as well as basic reliability packages.

hyperion.excal
02-21-2012, 3:32 PM
wilson combat imo

CWUSCG
02-21-2012, 3:52 PM
Another vote for Wilson or Nighthawk! :2guns:

beetle
02-21-2012, 3:54 PM
my vote is for the best of both worlds -- get a colt and then use it as a base gun for a full house custom from a premier smith like heirloom precision.

wash
02-21-2012, 3:56 PM
Buy a Valtro from John Jardine.

The only problem is budget, he told me he's asking $6,500 these days.

jcaoloveshine
02-21-2012, 3:59 PM
I forgot, Volkmann Combat also makes great guns.

But yeah, once you go full custom it's off into the deep end. You'll probably spend like $5000-$8000 depending on what you want, and if you get fancing engraving done by JR French or any other top engraver you'll be close to 5 digits.

HPGunner
02-21-2012, 4:01 PM
No experience with high end stuff like Wilson or Nighthawk or Ed Brown or Les Baer, but my inferior Dan Wesson PM7 works awesome.

BoJackUSMC
02-21-2012, 4:01 PM
Night Hawk or Wilson Combat if I have that much money to spend on 1911...

PRCABR4Christ
02-21-2012, 5:04 PM
if I had $5k to spend on a 1911...my end use of it would determine what I would buy...

if I wanted a carry gun, I would either pick up a Nighthawk T3, or I would pick up a used Colt LW Commander and send it off to Chuck Rogers to work his magic

if I wanted a comp/wad/ball gun, I would get it from Joe Chambers

skark_burmer
02-21-2012, 5:13 PM
Deleted

Woodworker2
02-21-2012, 5:26 PM
Less than $5,000, but all very nice target pistols. Here are the ones I like shooting:

1. Les Baer Premier II, with 1 1/2" guarantee. Solid performer, still "tight" after 2000 rounds. First gun I ever shot two rounds through the same hole!

2. Wilson "Classic". Very nice trigger, ambi safety, and magwell. Usual Wilson quality in fit and finish. (Could spend more and get the Supergrade model).

3. Ed Brown Executive Target. Slightly higher grip, due to the shape of the grip safety. Another nice trigger, with ambi safety.

4. For something different. Barsto BS-40. Double stack in .40 S&W. Ambi safety, great trigger, bull barrel.

MA2
02-21-2012, 9:31 PM
You can build your own Infinity (http://www.sviguns.com/2001.php), on roster as well.
Keep in mind, resale ratio (if ever needed) will not be as high as a production gun.

Well, lots of great suggestions, think I will add in Springfield Professional.

WolfSamurai
02-21-2012, 9:39 PM
Find a gun store that stocks 5 of the top choices in 1911s. Try the fit in your hand. Shoot them. Then decide on which one to buy. Never take anything on word of mouth. With top dollar you should kick the proverbial tires and decide what to buy after trying them out in person.

Dhena81
02-21-2012, 11:31 PM
I sold all my 1911's now because I want just one and it's going to cost more than all the others combined but I'm not F****** around anymore.

I'm 99% sure I'm going with a GRP Recon that is going to be configured the way I want it and it will have to be SSE.

What's the deal anyways with Wilson Supergrades?

Lead Waster
02-21-2012, 11:57 PM
If I were you, I would track down whoever you sold that Gold Cup that you said you could hit the X at 50 yards with and buy it back! :p

OzzieF
02-22-2012, 12:00 AM
I second SVI Infinity.

Awesome gun builders! If you've never fired one of their guns, you're missing out. Smooth as butter!!

http://www.sviguns.com/largepics/180.jpg

Echidin
02-22-2012, 8:02 AM
If I were in the position of having $5k to spend on a 1911 I would go with either a Wilson Combat CQB or S&W 1911 Performance Center. Then with the money I had left over I would buy a Sig1911 still leaving money to stock up on magazines and ammo.

OP, if you can justify spending $5k on one gun then go all out and go full custom, but I honestly can't see spending that much money on one gun when your old Colt Gold Cup was exactly what worked for you and was thousands less.

modls7
02-22-2012, 8:10 AM
Exactly what features are you looking for? Do you have a list? I have an 80's reworked Colt Gold Cup that feeds EVERYTHING (HPs, LSWC, Loaded Long, Loaded Short, Ball) with a variety of magazines as you mention also, I wouldn't hesitate to build up another Colt. Terry Tussey did it.

den888
02-22-2012, 8:11 AM
I love Colts.

Ventura_Yak'r
02-22-2012, 8:22 AM
Production

Springfield TRP is awesome but it has MIM parts. The TRP Operator is a sick gun though, if you can get over MIM at a price point of $1500-$1800.

Dan Wesson is probably my choice at this price range of $1200-$1500. Once CZ owned them however their price went up a few hundred bucks without much noticeable increase in quality. They are great guns, lock up tight and shoot well.

Semicustom

Either of the semicustom shops would suit you well, leaving you about 2-2.5k left over for ammo.

Baer- I own a TRS, great gun. Accurate, reliable, fitted well. Bluing starts to wear after a few months though. The tritium insert on my front sight came out, talked to Les Baer Sr. himself and it will be back on my doorstep 23 days after it left my doorstep at a total cost of $15 for me to ship to them insured Priority for $400. They ship back 2-day Fedex. Great service. Best semicustom buy for $1200-2000.

My Baer TRS:

http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/376391_2407141051446_1038750324_32472953_212023694 2_n.jpg

Their guns are more classic styled 1911s built hard and tight the old fashioned way. If you want a classic blued 1911 that locks up like a vault, get a Baer.

All their guns come with a base 3" at 50 yards 10-shot guarantee, for $300 more it upgrades to 1.5" at 50 yards.

This is an inside look at the shop:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dpdy8QQ-Y-Q



Wilson- No personal experience, but again, a great shop.

Ed Brown- They make good guns, their customer service leaves something to be desired.

Nighthawk- A really hot shop right now. Couple smiths left Wilson Combat and formed this shop, currently my favorite semicustom shop.

I'm paying off a Nighthawk 10-8 right now and it has the SMOOTHEST action of any 1911. The slide and rails feel like they are gliding on butter. It is a tight gun, but not bank vault tight like the Baer. The finish is also much better, but then again it's the Diamond Black finish which runs $600 alone. Of course, this is a $2900 gun versus my Baer which is a $1800 gun.

The Nighthawk 10-8 w/o Dawson rail:

http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/418132_311053092277452_132963146753115_776739_1774 311066_n.jpg

I highly suggest Nighthawk for the $2000-3000 range, especially the Predator since it has a bull barrel that makes shooting 45acp hardball feel like +P 9mm.

Full Custom

If you wanna go full custom, Pistol Dynamics, Heirloom Custom, Grey Guns, Rogers Precision are a few top shops. Of course, you are gonna spend AT LEAST $5000 and wait 1-1.5 years. But you will have a gun unique to yourself. Building a full custom is half the fun, the interaction and feedback you get from some of the top smiths in the world is worth the price alone.

Just remember, past $1500 the 1911 game is one of diminishing returns. It's like getting a Ferrari vs. Lamborghini vs. Bentley at that point. But if you got the money, you can get it any way you want.

+1
Nicely put...

Argonaut
02-22-2012, 8:35 AM
No one has the time and money to invest into there products like Colt, everyone else are newcomers trying to capitalise on sham marketing to make a buck, My son inherited a Chow modified gold cup........nothing modern compares, I don't own off brand Ar's either, You already answered you own question, buy a great vintage Gold Cup and adjust it as you need..........

Coyotegunner
02-22-2012, 9:19 AM
I had several Colts over the last 30 years in various grades.Never really had a complaint.Paras,were not that great.Kimbers,I will not buy again.I have a couple Springfields now.They will probably be fought over when I eat it.I have been around a few Olympics and Clarks.They are pretty nice.For factory,I would seriously entertain S&W or Sig,although I think the parts are kind of proprietary.

Freq18Hz
02-22-2012, 10:40 AM
FYI, I have read a lot of these kinds of posts on the internets.

This post seems to be the most balanced (and most accurate info wise) that I have found:


http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=261134&page=2

runway1
02-22-2012, 7:59 PM
REALLY.. REALLY? colt like harley they suck a** but for some reason. people still want to keep fixing them....

Yes, and apparently it's the reason you're not understanding. Colts are no different than today's Beretta M9 - a little sloppy and a little less accurate than your hand fit, $4k, pristine, safe jewel. It's because they're combat weapons, not target instruments that are polished, hugged and kissed every weekend before put to bed in their humidity controlled, carpeted little safe beds.

If you took your pricey Nighthawk, WC, etc. to a dust bowl full of grime, let's hope you'll never have to depend on it. If you do, give me a $700 Colt or Beretta anyday over your $4k babydoll.

Not that those pricey jewels aren't wonderful items, they certainly are and I would love to have one. But to not understand and appreciate the high reliability of a proven war fighter's weapon is just short sighted.

1911Luvr
02-23-2012, 12:41 AM
Yes, and apparently it's the reason you're not understanding. Colts are no different than today's Beretta M9 - a little sloppy and a little less accurate than your hand fit, $4k, pristine, safe jewel. It's because they're combat weapons, not target instruments that are polished, hugged and kissed every weekend before put to bed in their humidity controlled, carpeted little safe beds.

If you took your pricey Nighthawk, WC, etc. to a dust bowl full of grime, let's hope you'll never have to depend on it. If you do, give me a $700 Colt or Beretta anyday over your $4k babydoll.

Not that those pricey jewels aren't wonderful items, they certainly are and I would love to have one. But to not understand and appreciate the high reliability of a proven war fighter's weapon is just short sighted.

My $4k babydoll runs circles around my $700 Colt, and is in every conceivable way more reliable. In fact, it's more accurate, more comfortable to shoot, feeds everything I can magazine- even empty cases which I tried just for fun. All that and it is tighter than my ex boss holding a nickel.

Old military 1911s were not built "loose" for reliability, they were loose because every part had to be interchangeable with any other 1911 in the armorer's shop. That means tolerances had to be wider to accommodate new parts, worn parts, marginally spec'd parts, etc. Sure, these guns functioned, even having a mish mash of parts that loosely fit, but rather than say the guns were reliable because of being loose it would be more accurate to say they were reliable in spite of being loose.

But don't take my word for it, ask a good 1911 smith with 20+ years of experience and listen to their take on it...I did.

1911Luvr
02-23-2012, 12:54 AM
If you have $5K to spend on your dream 1911, do you really want someone else to have the same exact gun as you (ala a Wilson Combat Supergrade $5200)? I would spend my money on having exactly what I want built exactly the way I wanted so I have something that is truly unique- a one of a kind experience, which for that kind of money you deserve.

I put my money where my mouth is and did exactly that and couldn't be happier. I didn't have it all ready to plunk down at once so I dropped it off with an initial list and a few bucks, but over the course of 14 months the list kept growing and I kept tossing in money here and there until it was everything I wanted it to be. 14 months may sound like a long wait, but guys on here have waited much longer for a Springfield Professional which, although being a very nice gun, is still a production gun that the guy next door can also buy so there goes your exclusivity if you're into that kinda thing.

That said, since it is very hard to buy a frame and slide only in CA I'd just buy a Springfield Mil-spec and build your dream gun from there. It would cost nearly the same to buy a Caspian frame and slide anyway (which is all you'd use from the Springer on your build), but with the Springer you can sell the left over parts if you want to get a few bucks back.

Anchors
02-23-2012, 1:18 AM
Interesting article on Springfield Custom Shop 1911s vs. others (Colt's Mfg. Co., Kimber Of America, Springfield Armory, Wilson's Gun Shop, Les Baer Custom, Pro Gun, Cylinder & Slide Shop and C-More Systems.)

"Here's an article detailing the exhaustive testing the FBI conducted in their search for the best gun possible. I think it's a "must-read" for anyone interested in the Springfield Armory Pro model.

A quote from the article regarding the FBI's accuracy requirements during their testing of the 1911....

"While all of the FBI's requirements were demanding, the most rigorous was accuracy. Chosen at random, two of the five guns had to shoot no more than 1.5" at 25 yards for three 10-shot groups from a Ransom Rest. Then the guns would be shot for 20,000 rounds in an endurance test, after which a second accuracy test would be conducted with no more than 15 percent degradation in accuracy being acceptable.

Wilson's, Colt's and Kimber's guns all failed the accuracy test. Kimber's guns were the worst, shooting 3.5", according to FBI records. The only two candidates to pass were Springfield Armory and Pro Gun. As noted previously, Colt filed a protest over the ammunition required for the accuracy test, which was rejected.""

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_144_24/ai_57886947/?tag=content%3Bcol1

Colt-45
02-23-2012, 1:27 AM
I'm a Colt fan and always will be, however, Nighthawk makes the best 1911 at the moment.

jcaoloveshine
02-23-2012, 2:59 AM
My $4k babydoll runs circles around my $700 Colt, and is in every conceivable way more reliable. In fact, it's more accurate, more comfortable to shoot, feeds everything I can magazine- even empty cases which I tried just for fun. All that and it is tighter than my ex boss holding a nickel.

Old military 1911s were not built "loose" for reliability, they were loose because every part had to be interchangeable with any other 1911 in the armorer's shop. That means tolerances had to be wider to accommodate new parts, worn parts, marginally spec'd parts, etc. Sure, these guns functioned, even having a mish mash of parts that loosely fit, but rather than say the guns were reliable because of being loose it would be more accurate to say they were reliable in spite of being loose.

But don't take my word for it, ask a good 1911 smith with 20+ years of experience and listen to their take on it...I did.

Exactly. Looseness does not necessarily hinder accuracy, nor does tightness hinder reliability.

The stuff under the hood matters much more than whatever rattle you perceive in the gun. Extractor tension, polished feed ramps, barrel fitment etc are much more important. The 1911 requires some degree of tuning before it can run 100%, and oftentimes the guns that fall short are due to improperly tuned internals.

http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/tech/reliability_secrets.htm

Roddd
02-23-2012, 9:30 AM
I love my Nighthawk GRP Recon. And Nighthawk customer service is top notch. A lot of other nice 1911s have been mentioned so, to the OP, good luck and keep us posted!

Blackhawk556
02-23-2012, 11:10 AM
wow, very scientific analysis

for me it starts and ends with Colt, they're great out of the box and they're a great platform to customize however you want

id rather get a Colt 1991/Series 70/Special Combat Government and have the Colt Custom Shop make it exactly how I want than give Nighthawk/Wilson/ect a couple extra thousand dollars to give me their version of a Colt

You have to remember that even though colt was the original, the smiths they have working in their custom shop are not the original smiths from the early 1900's. Each shop has their own gunsmith. It comes down to which Guy has more skill and which shop has more strict guidelines.



Sent from Los Alamos Nuclear Facility

Blackhawk556
02-23-2012, 12:04 PM
Interesting article on Springfield Custom Shop 1911s vs. others (Colt's Mfg. Co., Kimber Of America, Springfield Armory, Wilson's Gun Shop, Les Baer Custom, Pro Gun, Cylinder & Slide Shop and C-More Systems.)<br />
<br />
"Here's an article detailing the exhaustive testing the FBI conducted in their search for the best gun possible. I think it's a "must-read" for anyone interested in the Springfield Armory Pro model.<br />
<br />
A quote from the article regarding the FBI's accuracy requirements during their testing of the 1911....<br />
<br />
"While all of the FBI's requirements were demanding, the most rigorous was accuracy. Chosen at random, two of the five guns had to shoot no more than 1.5" at 25 yards for three 10-shot groups from a Ransom Rest. Then the guns would be shot for 20,000 rounds in an endurance test, after which a second accuracy test would be conducted with no more than 15 percent degradation in accuracy being acceptable.<br />
<br />
Wilson's, Colt's and Kimber's guns all failed the accuracy test. Kimber's guns were the worst, shooting 3.5", according to FBI records. The only two candidates to pass were Springfield Armory and Pro Gun. As noted previously, Colt filed a protest over the ammunition required for the accuracy test, which was rejected.""<br />
<br />
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_144_24/ai_57886947/?tag=content%3Bcol1
This was an excellent read. Thanks. Now I have to find one of those bureau models with the FBI prefix. :-)

Sent from Los Alamos Nuclear Facility

skyscraper
02-23-2012, 12:56 PM
Springfield professional is the best 1911 currently made. Read ryan anchors article above. It out shot Baer, NH, Wilson, and every other good brand and is cheaper than most on that list.

Edit: It was Ryan that posted the article.

goldengate
02-23-2012, 1:13 PM
Interesting read on the FBI report. I wonder will they do another test for the next contract. Anyone know when the current contract expires? I wish they would broadcast the next round of testing. It will be like the Super Bowl of handguns.

goldengate
02-23-2012, 1:28 PM
Springfield professional is the best 1911 currently made. Read 1911lovr's article above. It out shot Baer, NH, Wilson, and every other good brand and is cheaper than most on that list.

According to FBI after 50,000 rounds, what you said is true. Got to start saving up for one now.

fennecfrank
02-23-2012, 1:33 PM
I'll repeat my story again....


A few years ago, I sold my highly customized Colt Series 80 Government Model customized by Bar-sto (work done by the dad), to my younger brother because he could not live without it:

http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/fd3b22a35c.jpg
the action is smooth and very accurate.

after the sell, I began my quest for a good 1911. Did a lot of research, went to several gunshops, and talked to several gun smiths regarding 1911's. Finally decided on the Ed Brown Special Forces after a local gunsmith showed me a Night Hawk GRP Recon that a LE officer has, which was brand new and only a few rounds fired. The slide stop was bad and they had to replace it.

However, after I got the Special Forces, still not quite satisfied. Did another extensive research and decided on the Guncrafter Industries Model 2. (chose the model 2 because it's different: full dusk cover and light rail). The one I got has both .50 GI round and the .45 acp barrels.

http://www.freeimagehosting.net/newuploads/kp3dg.jpg

http://www.freeimagehosting.net/newuploads/8om3p.jpg

http://www.freeimagehosting.net/newuploads/4khej.jpg


after I got the model 2, the quest was over. The gun is tight, yet smooth. It's also accurate. The gun is rock solid and so do the magazines. Never seen any magazines solid as the Guncrafter's. BTW, the founder of the company and the co-inventor of the .50 GI round answers all the e-mails himself. He also has won 7 world championship titles. Spoke with him several times over the phone regarding the order and I don't recall meeting anyone with such knowledge and yet as humble as him in the past.

ap3572001
02-23-2012, 1:40 PM
Best deal of my life? Smith and Wesson model 65 tunned by Jovino of Brooklin NY. Like ew in the box for about 200.00 + transfer

ARFAN
02-23-2012, 2:08 PM
How about a Wilson Tactical Super Grade (Black/Gray) (WTSG-A-ACA) / Steel. It's on the roster. Can't go wrong with this.

+1 I got one too.

keenkeen
02-23-2012, 2:15 PM
Best deal of my life? Smith and Wesson model 65 tunned by Jovino of Brooklin NY. Like ew in the box for about 200.00 + transfer

Missed it by that much....:)

Moto4Fun
02-23-2012, 2:17 PM
Interesting read on the FBI report. I wonder will they do another test for the next contract. Anyone when the current contract expires? I wish they would broadcast the next round of testing. It will be like the Super Bowl of handguns.

Better yet, they should do the tests at a facility where we can go watch!

runway1
02-23-2012, 2:28 PM
Exactly. Looseness does not necessarily hinder accuracy, nor does tightness hinder reliability.


http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/tech/reliability_secrets.htm

Old military 1911s were not built "loose" for reliability, they were loose because every part had to be interchangeable with any other 1911 in the armorer's shop. That means tolerances had to be wider to accommodate new parts, worn parts, marginally spec'd parts, etc.

But don't take my word for it, ask a good 1911 smith with 20+ years of experience and listen to their take on it...I did.

Sorry, mostly disagree. I've been a mechanism engineer for 27 years. I've designed, built, tested and delivered our country's finest flying mechanisms. "Loose" is not at all driven by needing interchangeable parts . Ford built pistons before WWI that fit wihtin a knat's tushy for 1,000s of cars all over the country. If Colt were only concerned about interchangability, they should've talked with Henry - but they weren't. The driver is an operable mechanism in certain environments.

As for a 20+ year smith - so what? Has he spent ten years in a desert making sure that darn thing works?

Talk to a soldier who needs to pull that thing from a mud puddle and make it bang. Talk to vehicle people in drenching humidity about a mechanism that sat on the pad for two months and then didn't work. I've made a career talking to these people and I know what works and why they're built like that.

goldengate
02-23-2012, 2:36 PM
Better yet, they should do the tests at a facility where we can go watch!

lol. That would be nice. Road trip!

mr00jimbo
02-23-2012, 2:43 PM
This is what a perfect 1911 looks like:
http://img813.imageshack.us/img813/7388/064xh.jpg
No firing pin block, no rail, no size 72 font rollmark, no magazine disconnect, night sights or any of that.
It does have some MIM parts (4, i think).

I'm in Canada, where Norincos are cheap and plentiful. I never thought I'd utter the name, but I might buy a Norinco GI for 325 dollars brand new. They're all forged steel (and a high quality steel, at that), no MIM parts (not that MIM is a deal to me) and a faithful replica to the original.

I was thinking to buy one for cheap, save up for parts, modify the hell out of it and have something beautiful, with function over tightness. My Colt rattles and that's fine, because it's damn reliable.

skyscraper
02-23-2012, 3:03 PM
Interesting read on the FBI report. I wonder will they do another test for the next contract. Anyone know when the current contract expires? I wish they would broadcast the next round of testing. It will be like the Super Bowl of handguns.


http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_144_24/ai_57886947/?tag=content;col1
It called for a minimum of 500 guns and a maximum of 5,000 over the life of the contract.

goldengate
02-23-2012, 4:15 PM
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_144_24/ai_57886947/?tag=content;col1

It called for a minimum of 500 guns and a maximum of 5,000 over the life of the contract.

I saw that part. It still doesn't say when the contract ends. FBI has to order within that range to fulfill the terms.

goldengate
02-23-2012, 4:27 PM
According to this website, the contract starts in 1998 and last for 10 years. So, it should expired in 2008, unless it was renewed.

http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/history/fbi_1911.htm

alex45auto
02-23-2012, 4:35 PM
Auto Ordnance or Charles Daly:)

frank8097
02-23-2012, 4:42 PM
Well considering all 1911's are mechanically the same my vote goes to either wilson combat, les baer or nighthawk, because of the their extra attention to detail. Therefore their 1911's are more likely to work the way they should.

stormvet
02-23-2012, 4:55 PM
How about a little thinking before we post, the OP has $5000 he wants to spend on the "BEST" 1911 he can find for that price. Really a out of the box Colt, S.A. TRP, SIG etc, etc. is the best we can come up with.
Thankfully some informed calgunners thinking outside thier own safe jumped in and saved the day.

cannon
02-23-2012, 5:25 PM
If I had 5K in my pocket earmarked for a 1911... I'd find an older Gold Cup or similar that was done back in the day by Capone, Chow or some other top tier gunsmith. I'd get any fine tuning needed by Hoag or his equivalent.

As a kid I grew up around similar old guys with custom Colts and that would be the exact type of 1911 I'd want.

1911Luvr
02-24-2012, 12:10 AM
Sorry, mostly disagree. I've been a mechanism engineer for 27 years. I've designed, built, tested and delivered our country's finest flying mechanisms. "Loose" is not at all driven by needing interchangeable parts . Ford built pistons before WWI that fit wihtin a knat's tushy for 1,000s of cars all over the country. If Colt were only concerned about interchangability, they should've talked with Henry - but they weren't. The driver is an operable mechanism in certain environments.

As for a 20+ year smith - so what? Has he spent ten years in a desert making sure that darn thing works?

Talk to a soldier who needs to pull that thing from a mud puddle and make it bang. Talk to vehicle people in drenching humidity about a mechanism that sat on the pad for two months and then didn't work. I've made a career talking to these people and I know what works and why they're built like that.

You obviously don't respect the opinions of someone who does this day in and day out for a living, no problem, you're entitled to your opinion. But I do fail to see how your expertise in flying mechanisms makes you a better expert on the subject than guys building guns most of their lives. I'm not a gunsmith either so it seems we will agree to disagree.

That said I do tend to respect the opinion of guys like Hilton Yam who has made a career working with 1911s, and most other people I've talked to tend to think he knows a thing or two about them as well. As seen in his testing, a loose fitting gun will not be any more useful in a sandy environment than a tight fitting gun since the slide to frame contact is not the point where sand induced failures occur. Here's what Hilton said about it:

"...the reality from the context of this testing is that the rails and grooves barely even see any sand. The show stopper for the 1911 is the intrusion of sand into the radial lug area on the slide/barrel and the contact between the lower lugs and the slide stop pin. Since these are critical contact areas for lockup, it can be hard to create much meaningful clearance here. More realistic would be to work toward limiting the introduction of sand into this area."

If the gun were loose to the point that sand did not cause an issue in these areas, the gun would be unreliable since it would not lock up properly and at the very least would be inaccurate since the point of lock up would change with every cycle of the slide.

modls7
02-24-2012, 10:40 AM
Sorry, mostly disagree. I've been a mechanism engineer for 27 years. I've designed, built, tested and delivered our country's finest flying mechanisms. "Loose" is not at all driven by needing interchangeable parts . Ford built pistons before WWI that fit wihtin a knat's tushy for 1,000s of cars all over the country. If Colt were only concerned about interchangability, they should've talked with Henry - but they weren't. The driver is an operable mechanism in certain environments.


You are arguing with history here. Colt was one of a handful of primary (one that also actually had experience building pistols) contractors, and each had subcontractors to keep up with demand. It would be easier for Ford to control what's under his roof, imagine what would happen if he had to work with companies (some foreign even) that had no experience or equipment manufacturing cars at all? Colt had to overcome those challenges with pistols.

How about a little thinking before we post, the OP has $5000 he wants to spend on the "BEST" 1911 he can find for that price. Really a out of the box Colt, S.A. TRP, SIG etc, etc. is the best we can come up with.


He has never really chimed back in stating what it is he wants. He should go full custom (not SEMI-custom) from a builder and SSE for that kind of money if he is willing to go through SSE and wait the time it takes.

If he wants it on the roster it has to be a semi-custom, or an enhanced factory model.

polo.45
02-24-2012, 1:26 PM
I like kimbers. .... Can't afford a wilson combat. :D

glock22fs
02-24-2012, 5:19 PM
if you really want to spend 5k on your baby i would suggest looking for a custom smith who does 1911s in the style you are looking for (accuracy, carry etc). one smith i dont see mentioned here is Dave severns. he does great work

the other option at that price point is the wilson supergrades. I have shot those and really enjoy them.

I have shot all the major 4 semi custom makers and really have nothing bad to say about any of them. they are all different in their small ways.

For those who say the "tight" 1911s are unreliable, i have to flatly refute them. i carry a les baer custom carry 1.5" in the desert daily and have had ZERO reliability issues with it. even if i am rolling in the dritty dust and muck, my properly built and tuned 1911 runs like a champ

in essence if you dont want a semi custom, find a smith and enjoy the process of building your new baby

Anchors
02-28-2012, 12:42 AM
This was an excellent read. Thanks. Now I have to find one of those bureau models with the FBI prefix. :-)

Sent from Los Alamos Nuclear Facility

No need. Apparently all of them are made at the factory without the workers/smiths ever knowing which one are going to the FBI and which are going to civilian sale. I guess that keeps everyone serious about the quality from piece to piece.

I really want one even though I just got a TRP. Damn it. haha.

c3 rolling
02-28-2012, 9:51 AM
From my limited experience, Springfield Pro. From others I have talked to, Les Baer or Nighthawk.

striker777
03-02-2012, 12:04 PM
My Para P18 - 9 double stack works.

teflondog
03-02-2012, 12:37 PM
I have a Les Baer TRS and an Ed Brown SF. If I could do it all over again, I would have saved the cash and bought just a Wilson Combat CQB Elite.

rtadlock
03-02-2012, 12:48 PM
I have a Wilson Combat CQB. I dont know how many rounds I have through it at this point but but I would estimate around 7000 rounds. I reload and the only time I get a jam is when I change the recoil spring. One round from the first mag usually gets hung up.

Great Gun, Wilson combat is very helpful if you call them.

MyGlock17
03-02-2012, 5:51 PM
I say Colt because it's the original brand that made 1911...Although there are alot of good brands of 1911's...