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View Full Version : Anyone in SoCal who REALLY wants a Rifleman patch...


as_rocketman
02-21-2012, 9:38 AM
ROUND 2: March 17-18 at Burro Canyon...

Just about anyone CAN get the Rifleman patch. I've handed patches to both men and women, under the age of 15 and over 70, some who hunted their whole lives and some who never fired a rifle before. It's a challenge, but it just takes a little perseverance. Once you make up your mind to do it, you can do it.

I'm trying something new at Burro Canyon this year, as we stretch to reach our goal of 750 California Riflemen (presently above 500 in three years). Instead of spacing out shoots one per season, we've lined up a bunch to give you the best chance and the most intensive instruction. It starts this weekend, February 25-26. We've got some extra spots on the line, so you are guaranteed a good instructor / student ratio.

If you don't make it the first time, we've got another one coming up on March 17-18. Just enough time to get some rest and practice the positions, but not so long that you forget everything. And if you pick up an RWVA Membership (either online or at the range), all you pay for the second Appleseed is range fees.

If the third time is the charm, then we have the big "April 19th" weekend. We're doing tons of Appleseeds that weekend, and we're back at Burro a third time on April 21-22. Again, with membership, all you pay is range fees until a year is up, or you get the Rifleman patch. Doesn't have to be at the same range. Whatever works for you.

The weather's going to be great out there, not broiling hot like it gets in July. Bring your .22's for the best chance, but centerfires are welcome too. Bring a scope if you need one. We'll help you sort out your gear on day one. We'll be on private lines at Burro Canyon (sign up for "Azusa CA" at the Appleseed preregistration website (http://www.appleseedinfo.org/search-states.php?filter=CA&statename=California)).

So -- who wants to be a Rifleman? See you there this weekend!

devilinblack
02-21-2012, 5:07 PM
My gf's son went to the event at Raahauges last weekend and we'll likely be at the March event you mention in your post. He wants to go again and I'm curious to see if I can still shoot as well as when I was in the army.

If we want to bring a third (neighbor girl) who would we contact about a loaner rifle? I'll be using my bolt action .22, the kid will be using my 10/22, but I thought it would be better for the other one to have a "Liberty Training Rifle" style gun instead of using my Ted Williams tube fed .22.

Eljay
02-21-2012, 6:00 PM
That's very cool to be able to do it again while it's still fresh. Up here it's basically a four month gap since there's only one in the bay area, it's every other month, and it's sold out way in advance.

as_rocketman
02-21-2012, 8:00 PM
If we want to bring a third (neighbor girl) who would we contact about a loaner rifle? I'll be using my bolt action .22, the kid will be using my 10/22, but I thought it would be better for the other one to have a "Liberty Training Rifle" style gun instead of using my Ted Williams tube fed .22.

The right person to contact is the Shoot Boss, which in this case is me. (For other shoots, post up here and one of us will figure out who the Shoot Boss is for you.) Bring the Ted Williams anyway, most of the skills apply regardless of what rifle you bring, but you're right that the class is easier with a few simple hardware changes.

We pretty much always have a couple of loaner LTRs, in case someone's rifle breaks on the line. In case we'll need a lot of LTRs we can pool with other instructors, so it's best to get that worked out a week or so in advance. But it shouldn't be any problem.

---
That's very cool to be able to do it again while it's still fresh. Up here it's basically a four month gap since there's only one in the bay area, it's every other month, and it's sold out way in advance.

I'm kind of excited to try it. Historically we see about 5 to 10% first-time Riflemen. On average, it takes three Appleseeds to make the grade. But these are perishable skills -- you MUST practice to stay sharp. (Oh no! I have to go practice at the range! How awful! :p ) But by staggering the classes like this, I'm betting our class does very well. We'll soon see!

PurplePeople
02-21-2012, 9:06 PM
That's very cool to be able to do it again while it's still fresh. Up here it's basically a four month gap since there's only one in the bay area, it's every other month, and it's sold out way in advance.

We're working on it, we're working on it! :banghead: Trying for other ranges, Castro Valley itself is booked wall-to-wall a gazillion months in advance. Stay tuned.

Helpful_Cub
02-21-2012, 9:27 PM
What kind of Rifleman qualification are you talking about? CMP? What kind of range are these targets at? How are they scored and what kind of score is needed?

-Thanks for the info.

DannyInSoCal
02-21-2012, 9:34 PM
April sounds about right -

Tagged...

ocabj
02-21-2012, 10:08 PM
With the popularity of Appleseed shoots, I'm hoping at least a small percentage of Appleseed participants get the urge to try competitive High Power Rifle.

as_rocketman
02-21-2012, 11:06 PM
What kind of Rifleman qualification are you talking about? CMP? What kind of range are these targets at? How are they scored and what kind of score is needed?

-Thanks for the info.

http://i781.photobucket.com/albums/yy96/as_rocketman/CMP%20HRA%20Garand/P1010818.jpg

The Rifleman Patch is the "award" for marksmanship achievement at Appleseed. It requires a score of 210 or greater out of 250 possible on the Quick 'n Dirty Army Qualification Test, or AQT. This is a target shot at 25 meters in four stages, utilizing standing, seated, and prone positions, time limits, transitions, and forced magazine changes. It is designed to test all of the fundamental field marksmanship techniques taught at Appleseed.

There is also a Known Distance version shot at 100, 200, 300, and 400 meters, but not all ranges can accommodate this. It also takes a lot longer to set up and shoot. But it's worth doing if you get the chance.

With the popularity of Appleseed shoots, I'm hoping at least a small percentage of Appleseed participants get the urge to try competitive High Power Rifle.

Absolutely. Our course of fire is similar but not quite the same as High Power events, and that's a great thing to try next. I've had several students who were either already doing them or interested in trying.

Eljay
02-22-2012, 9:01 AM
With the popularity of Appleseed shoots, I'm hoping at least a small percentage of Appleseed participants get the urge to try competitive High Power Rifle.

You know, I am interested, but when I looked into it the local high power people seem interested in keeping it a closed group - there's very little information available online, no results listed (so I have no idea if anybody is even going to these things), no directions as to where exactly they are, or what's expected, or how to practice. The other rifle competition groups all are pretty much the same, with maybe a few online posts about how the sport's dying out and kids these days blah blah blah. There have been a few drive by postings on calguns but they post the event is on such a such a date and people ask basic questions like what's the distance and how large are the targets and nobody ever responds.

I've pretty much given up the idea of any kind of local rifle competition and will probably start training up to do IPSC/USPSA again once I get past the April Appleseed.

as_rocketman
02-22-2012, 10:16 AM
That's a pity. We have a more welcoming group down here. I'm not currently doing High Power since being an Appleseed Instructor burns up most of my free time and to me is an important mission. But I originally got into Appleseed hoping to shoot in John Cantius matches without just wasting all that expensive ammo...

We also have others down here, notably the Cowboy Action folks, who have been VERY supportive and welcoming, and quite a few of us attend each other's events.

Most of the basic shooting skills translate to other formats. We teach field shooting, practical marksmanship, that lends itself well to others whether it's rifles or not. After all, all of us shooters need to pull together. Keeping our rights is a pretty big deal.

Maybe you just haven't met the right group yet? I'll bet we can find them. Calguns, do your stuff!

Eljay
02-22-2012, 1:46 PM
Maybe you just haven't met the right group yet? I'll bet we can find them. Calguns, do your stuff!

That's a good point - I just added to my to do list to see if there are some other groups that might just be a little further.

Update: I found most of what I'm looking for, but it's a bit far - http://www.zouaves.org/home - actual new shooter clinics, FAQs, instructions on what to bring, scores online so you can see if anybody's actually showing up (yes, but not as many as I would have thought). It's a start, anyway.

PurplePeople
02-22-2012, 2:28 PM
That's a good point - I just added to my to do list to see if there are some other groups that might just be a little further.

Update: I found most of what I'm looking for, but it's a bit far - http://www.zouaves.org/home - actual new shooter clinics, FAQs, instructions on what to bring, scores online so you can see if anybody's actually showing up (yes, but not as many as I would have thought). It's a start, anyway.

One of our Chabot AS instructors shoots with the Zouaves and speaks highly of them, FWIW.

Eljay
02-22-2012, 3:11 PM
Good to hear - they're looking just about perfect, other than the drive. I'll definitely give them a shot in May or June as my schedule allows.

alvfr750
02-22-2012, 5:37 PM
Good to hear - they're looking just about perfect, other than the drive. I'll definitely give them a shot in May or June as my schedule allows.

Hi Eljay, I am the AS Instructor that does High power matches with the San Jose Zouaves. Please let me know if you have any questions and I will help you as best as I can. If I don't know an answer to your question we can get one of the other members to help out. PM me if you want to talk more about this.

as_rocketman
02-22-2012, 7:31 PM
And Calguns comes through. Thanks, gang.

Hope to see some of you at Burro this weekend.

What Just Happened?
02-22-2012, 9:10 PM
I'm looking at coming out this Sunday. What time should I show up and will the session be over when the range usually closes (4pm)? Also, will I be able to shoot with a .22lr? I noticed that there is not a '25 meter' note on the Azusa description that is present on the Corona description.

as_rocketman
02-22-2012, 10:20 PM
Plan to be there before 8:30. .22LR is recommended but not required. This is a 25 meter event. We will keep going until 4:15-ish unless everyone gets too tired, in which case we'll throw in more stories. Should be a GREAT day, forecast is showing sunny and a high of 72F. See you there!

Z82deadeye
02-23-2012, 8:04 AM
I want my patch, going this weekend. But I know it will be tough haven't shot a rifle since I was a kid.

Hagendazs
02-23-2012, 8:17 AM
Went to appleseed this past weekend and vastly improved :)

http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/403054_3151994313345_1069740026_3195479_1044870136 _n.jpg

I will get that patch one of these days.

CBlacksheep
02-23-2012, 9:56 AM
I've got my card in my wallet, but I still haven't been able to make it out to an event. April sounds like it should be a nice time. Are there online copies of the Quick & Dirty AQT online? A youth group I volunteer with has used them in the past for determining rifle qualification, and they were always effective in measuring skill. Can't wait to go check it out.

gesundheit
02-23-2012, 12:28 PM
So is everyone shooting .22 at Appleseed events? I read somewhere that the round counts can be upward of 1500 for a two day event. Is it true?

PurplePeople
02-23-2012, 12:44 PM
More like 450-600, depending on the shoot.

hightone110
02-23-2012, 12:48 PM
My uncle and niece are coming to this shoot with me ... The problem is my niece does not have a rifle. I have read that there are always a couple of loaner rifles. Do we need to worry about her not having a loaner rifle. She is really excited on going... I would hate for her not to be able to attend ... Any help with this topic would be greatly appreciated!

Eljay
02-23-2012, 12:49 PM
@Hagendazs - Heh - mine look pretty much exactly like yours.

@CBlacksheep - If you Google around you can find a couple of different versions. I shoot 1" squares prone, 2" sitting, and 3" standing and that's pretty much the size of the sweet spot in the AQT targets.

@gesundheit - Most people shoot .22s because of the cost and because you might as well. Shifting from a .22 to a larger caliber is no big deal once you have the fundamentals down. The round count's not that high. On a Saturday there's lots of listening to instruction and just shooting 5 round groups between lessons so you only go through maybe 250 rounds. Sunday it depends on how efficient the group is - you shoot 26 rounds worth of the red coat target posted above (13 to start, 13 to finish) and then you shoot a whole bunch of 40 round AQT targets. You might do some other drills but then you're shooting fewer AQTs so it all works out.

Eljay
02-23-2012, 12:52 PM
@hightone110 - the procedure is to contact the shoot boss and ask them to reserve one. If you don't know the shoot boss for your shoot post the location and date and I imagine one of the Appleseed guys will fill you in.

hightone110
02-23-2012, 12:56 PM
Do I call the shooting range ? How do I get the shoot bosses number? Sorry for all the questions

Smidge
02-23-2012, 1:00 PM
I've got my card in my wallet, but I still haven't been able to make it out to an event. April sounds like it should be a nice time. Are there online copies of the Quick & Dirty AQT online? A youth group I volunteer with has used them in the past for determining rifle qualification, and they were always effective in measuring skill. Can't wait to go check it out.

They have them for sale at the AS Store.

as_rocketman
02-23-2012, 4:42 PM
Got the one loaner squared away. If there's any more, please speak up NOW, while I have time to find more.

Most Appleseeds run just under 250 rounds on Saturday and 350 on Sunday. Out of all the shoots I've done only one went to 700, and that was a pretty advanced and motivated class. I can't even imagine putting down 1500 rounds in a weekend unless it's just plinking, which we don't do -- every single shot is well-aimed before and studied afterward. Just because we teach fundamentals doesn't mean we're not serious.

I don't have a digitized AQT, but if you catch me after the shoot I'll give you some to take home. You can scan 'em, copy 'em, whatever you want. On my own I shoot squares most of the time. Those are really easy.

Comcam
02-23-2012, 9:28 PM
I am thinking of going, do you have to go both days? I think it would be fun to try for the patch.

I have my AR and my dads old bolt action .22, I can prob borrow my buddies 10/22 for the event.

Also since I am military I just pay the $10 range fee right?

Rock6.3
02-24-2012, 6:12 AM
If you can only attend one day; Attend Saturday!

as_rocketman
02-24-2012, 8:22 AM
Correct. We review on Sunday, but it goes a lot faster.

If you're MIL then you only pay range fees. Bring your military ID, and thanks for your service!

Comcam
02-24-2012, 2:35 PM
Thanks for the info! I will try and make it tomorrow!

BoxesOfLiberty
02-24-2012, 5:31 PM
Hi Eljay, I am the AS Instructor that does High power matches with the San Jose Zouaves. Please let me know if you have any questions and I will help you as best as I can. If I don't know an answer to your question we can get one of the other members to help out. PM me if you want to talk more about this.

I'm interested too ... PM incoming.

BoxesOfLiberty
02-24-2012, 5:33 PM
So is everyone shooting .22 at Appleseed events? I read somewhere that the round counts can be upward of 1500 for a two day event. Is it true?

We actually see plenty of .223s and there are usually some larger rifles as well.

This last AS at Chabot, brought out a few ARs, couple of Garands, an HK-91 (or maybe it was a PTR-91), and at least one WW1 era rifle ... not sure if it was a Mosin or maybe a Mauser (didn't get a close look).

as_rocketman
02-24-2012, 5:54 PM
The most common non-.22 on the line in my experience is the AR-15, followed closely by the Mini-14. We see quite a few M1As, the occasional Garand, and lots of SKS's as well.

I've worked with several students that had Mosins, there was one K98, a .38sp levergun, .17HMR, one gorgeous AR-10 in .308, and two with Remington 700's in large and painful calibers.

The all-time oddest, I think, was James (now an IIT) with a .58 Springfield 1863. :gnorsi:

We preach "run what you brung," but given the choice, try to make life easy on yourself... .22LR is a great way to learn. Once you've got the results you want, go ahead and move up to .223 or .308 or whatever.

as_rocketman
02-25-2012, 7:06 PM
Saturday report:

Just in case anyone thought I was just talking smack... two new Riflemen today. And we're just getting started. :cheers2:

hightone110
02-25-2012, 7:29 PM
Yeah!!! Can't wait for tomorrow !

Z82deadeye
02-26-2012, 5:28 PM
Awesome training. Will be back for sure, and will also tell others about it.

as_rocketman
02-27-2012, 9:15 PM
Outstanding shoot last weekend. Hope to see y'all back on March 17th and 18th.

I've put up some pictures from the shoot at the RWVA forum here: http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=27999

Got a few AQT results to share... posting them up as I get them out of the pile:

Last AQTs:
Hightone110: 140 (you had some "help")
Z: 170 (stage 3 / 4 got better as you went along -- more dry practice)
DAS: 83 (stage 1 / 2 look great, stock Ruger sights are tough for stage 4)
MS: 113 (you'll get faster on 2 / 3. Stage 4 looks pretty good)
Woof Doc: 205 (the earlier ones were better, but your stage 2 was good here)
J: 85 (yup, that squirrel scope is definitely toast... it happens)

hightone110
02-28-2012, 8:56 PM
Gonna try and make the march event... and try and get that rifleman patch... it would be a great birthday present!!!

I hope my membership card comes in... :)

as_rocketman
02-28-2012, 9:59 PM
If it doesn't, I'll get you sorted out, not to worry. See you in a few weeks!

I've got a bunch more AQT scores to put up, but they're in my target box... should be able to get to it tomorrow. Sorry for the lag.

Also feel free to post up here or at the RWVA Forum thread (http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=27999) -- the good, the bad, questions, whatever.

AndrewMendez
03-02-2012, 10:28 PM
Hey RocketMan! Good to see you on here. I will be at the June 23rd weekend shoot for both days.
I met you at Burro, I was the CalGuns Ambassador, and talked to a small group....then missed Rifleman by 10 points or so.
I may go to another one before that, but without a doubt will be at Burro that weekend with a small handful of friends.

as_rocketman
03-08-2012, 8:21 AM
All right, one week more to prepare before we do it again.

Last time we had two new Riflemen, and three more who should be able to make it over the crest this time. Who's ready to step up?

Our pre-registration for the next Burro Canyon event is double what it was at this point last time, so get yourselves signed up (http://appleseedinfo.org/search-states.html). See you on the 17th!

SN8KE-DOC
03-12-2012, 12:54 PM
Hi rocketman, I'am new to calguns and have heard great things about this event. I will see you there next week.

hightone110
03-12-2012, 8:48 PM
Hey Rocketman...

Dont think i am gonna be able to make it this month... got scheduled to work this weekend...

by the way i have not received anything in the mail about my membership card...

well i hope all is well ... and i hope to see you at the next meet

RuggedJay
03-14-2012, 10:57 AM
It's supposed to be raining like a Mofo on both days.

Eljay
03-14-2012, 11:08 AM
It's good for you. Builds character.

as_rocketman
03-14-2012, 6:26 PM
:p Yeah, it'll probably be a little damp. However, I've been told that before.

No big deal. Bring warm clothing and pop-up canopies if you have them. Your rifles will work just fine... and I got my Rifleman patch in several inches of rain, without any cover at all.

For those who can't make this one, try to make it to the April 21-22 shoot. I can practically guarantee a nice day then -- last year there wasn't a cloud in the sky.

Unisonetwork
03-26-2012, 8:25 PM
I signed up this last Sunday for both days in April at Burro. This will be my first time to Burro & Appleseed. Really looking forward to the instruction with two days of shooting. My wife and kids are looking forward to participating later on in the year.
I'm bringing two Rugers, one set with Tech sights and the other is scoped. Both with slings.
Now...I've gone thru the list Fred put up on Appleseed...anything else needed?
How did the rains treat Burro this Sunday? Anyone make Rifleman?
-L

as_rocketman
03-26-2012, 8:43 PM
If you've got rifles and ammo (a brick each for the full weekend), eye and ear protection, sights and slings worked out, mats of some sort, food and water and sunscreen and appropriate clothing and a sunny attitude, you should be all set!

No Riflemen last time. The wind prevented us from doing ANY AQTs on Saturday, and we were down to two waterlogged students on Sunday. The wind was nicer but it destroyed all our covers on Saturday so they had to shoot in the rain! Nonetheless, both got awfully close to a Rifleman score, both shooting above 190 despite all the weather.

The next one on April 21-22 is a big one, and we'll be doing some special things we only do on Patriot's Weekend. If you've been to an Appleseed and didn't quite make the score, this is a good time to review and refresh before you forget it all (you HAVE been practicing, right???). If you're new to it, this is a fun way to start.

ETA: Where are my manners? Here's a link to the After Action Report from the last Burro Canyon shoot, with pictures: http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=28354.0

hightone110
04-12-2012, 2:11 PM
rocketman,

hey if i plan on going next saturday ... and i have my receipt for my membership card .... do i need to purchase anything to show up on saturday?

as_rocketman
04-12-2012, 9:20 PM
You should pre-register anyway -- if your card is in the system it should let you register for free. This will guarantee you a spot on the line in case we sell out. I don't think we will, but it will be close!

Just over a week to go.

hightone110
04-13-2012, 1:37 PM
Never got my card in the mail and i forgot to bring my receipt to the event to get my card any suggestions on how to register should I register under re enactor

as_rocketman
04-13-2012, 10:45 PM
Best thing I'd recommend at this point is to call the contact number at RWVA. If your card is in the mail somewhere they should be able to pull the strings for you.

However, they're volunteers too -- if you can't get a quick answer, try the walk-on route. We'll get it sorted out.

hightone110
04-14-2012, 3:28 PM
Just sent them an email via Appleseed website keep you posted and probably see you next Saturday

as_rocketman
04-15-2012, 5:44 PM
Yup, we're on the case!

Worst case, come on up anyway and I'm sure I can squeeze you on the line this weekend. Just hoping to get this little glitch figured out the right way first.

as_rocketman
04-24-2012, 11:07 PM
SO, Round Three is complete. I've just put a bunch of pictures up in our AAR thread: http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=29227

There's also a link to video of our Volley for Liberty, taken by one of the "Appleseed Dads." Check it out.

I want to thank everyone who came out so far. We had some GREAT shooting, and some of the nicest folks I've met on the Appleseed Trail so far. Turnouts are up and it just keeps getting better.

We'll be doing three more at Burro Canyon this year: June 23-24, October 20-21, and December 15-16. If you're one of the many who was this close to a Rifleman score, keep practicing and come back in June, and you'll probably make it. If you haven't been yet and want to try it, June will be a good introduction, or our October/November dates are spaced close together so you don't forget everything at the first one... This seemed to work earlier in the year, so we're doing it again. Plus there's literally dozens of shoots at the other SoCal ranges.

Drop me a line or post up with any questions. Again, thanks for some great shoots, and I'll see you for more coming up pretty soon!