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View Full Version : How can San Francisco restrict mail order ammo sales?


glenbear
02-20-2012, 9:58 PM
Under what authority does San Francisco have the right to ban mail order ammo sales?

AB 962 was overturned.

I bought from Midway all last year and just attempted to place an order and was rebuffed when I used my SF address.

2/20/2012

Anybody have any ideas/thoughts/help on this issue?

Thanks.

themethod
02-20-2012, 10:17 PM
I too have wondered about this. Some places ship anything to my SF address, no problem. Some refuse to ship to SF at all and some places will ship rifle ammo but not handgun ammo.

It's all very confusing... Would be nice if someone could shed some light on the subject.

huntercf
02-20-2012, 10:18 PM
SF doesn't have authority, they just do what they want, they don't believe in the Constitution or Freedom.

chillincody
02-20-2012, 10:21 PM
I am not a 100% sure if this is right but , that bill was state law that was shot down but citys can still pass ammo laws its the same for sacremento again im not sure if i remember right . I hope i am wrong

njineermike
02-20-2012, 10:22 PM
Even sales of goldfish are illegal there. No shock they stop ammunition sales.

Librarian
02-20-2012, 10:23 PM
Under what authority does San Francisco have the right to ban mail order ammo sales?

AB 962 was overturned.

I bought from Midway all last year and just attempted to place an order and was rebuffed when I used my SF address.

2/20/2012

Anybody have any ideas/thoughts/help on this issue?

Thanks.

Other than Midway's reaction, why do you think this is a San Francisco issue?

Here's the SF muni code: http://www.amlegal.com/nxt/gateway.dll?f=templates&fn=default.htm&vid=amlegal:sanfrancisco_ca

The ordinances implementing Prop H (2005) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco_Proposition_H_%282005%29) are invalid, since the prop was thrown out in court.

berto
02-20-2012, 10:36 PM
I've had multiple vendors ship ammo to me in SF. Some even shipped handgun ammo. Shop around.

ja308
02-20-2012, 10:51 PM
The city (SF) has adopted the concept of international law .

Under international law there is NO provision for RKBA .

Recently Justice ginsburg (ACLU) made apublic statement advising another nation to adopt the South African constitution as opposed to our's .

The south african constitution does not have RKBA.
And so the 5th column marches on in it's quest to destroy liberty .

W/o becoming partisan , does anyone know which party controlls the great city of San Francisco?

bruce381
02-20-2012, 10:53 PM
order ahead and pickup at the Cow palace shows? or just go to cow palace miwall is at every one also they are at vallejo too

CaliforniaLiberal
02-21-2012, 7:37 AM
Under what authority does San Francisco have the right to ban mail order ammo sales?
......
I bought from Midway all last year and just attempted to place an order and was rebuffed when I used my SF address.
......
Anybody have any ideas/thoughts/help on this issue?

Thanks.


My thoughts are that mail-order companies like Midway spend time and money and lawyers on trying to keep out of trouble from States and Localities that they ship to. Laws are passed and repealed and overruled by courts and it's quite a job to keep track of hundreds of laws across this great Nation of ours. Sometimes they err on the side of caution and refuse to ship items even when they are perfectly legal. It's their business and their right to decide no matter how disappointed you might be.

A few times CalGunners have told the story here of writing or calling some mistaken mail-order company and persuading them to ship something and change their policy. But mostly they are stubborn and won't change for anyone.

The City of Sacramento has a ammo purchase law requiring ID and thumbprint to buy ammo in City Limits. The City has even clarified publicly that their local ordinance does not apply to mail order shipments but I don't think there are any companies that will ship ammo to Sac City zip codes.

So it's more a matter of mail-order companies decisions than the great power wielded by Cities and Counties petty laws.

Try a different mail order company, you'll probably find someone to get you what you need.

A-J
02-21-2012, 8:33 AM
I would say this is a vendor issue and not a city issue. Although SF is known for adopting some pretty stupid laws. There are plenty of vendors who choose not to ship to some or all locations in CA, simply becuase of the ridiculousness of our laws. I'd say give them a call. If it can't be hashed out, find a vendor who'll ship.

San FranPsycho
02-21-2012, 8:39 AM
I know that I talked to guys at Big 5. Said they don't carry guns because it is just too big off a pain tax wise to sell them here. Have to go to Daly City for Big 5 gun needs. Same with ammo.

sakosf
02-21-2012, 9:10 AM
Graf & Sons, JG Sales, ammunitiontogo.com will ship to a SF address.

thomascrowe
02-21-2012, 10:57 AM
The city (SF) has adopted the concept of international law .

Under international law there is NO provision for RKBA .

Recently Justice ginsburg (ACLU) made apublic statement advising another nation to adopt the South African constitution as opposed to our's .

The south african constitution does not have RKBA.
And so the 5th column marches on in it's quest to destroy liberty .

W/o becoming partisan , does anyone know which party controlls the great city of San Francisco?

Communist Party of USA!

EricSF
02-21-2012, 10:58 AM
Able Ammo supports SF and our efforts in CA ableammo.com

dfletcher
02-21-2012, 1:23 PM
Other than Midway's reaction, why do you think this is a San Francisco issue?

Here's the SF muni code: http://www.amlegal.com/nxt/gateway.dll?f=templates&fn=default.htm&vid=amlegal:sanfrancisco_ca

The ordinances implementing Prop H (2005) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco_Proposition_H_%282005%29) are invalid, since the prop was thrown out in court.

Grafs used to but will no longer ship me loaded ammo in SF, at least that's the bounce back notice I get from them when trying to order. Components are no problem. Same thing with Cabelas.

Re Midway, they won't even ship reloading components such as bullets or brass. I've tried dealing with them and "our lawyers tell us ...." is the response I've gotten from Potterfield's office, I've given up on them on this subject.

paul0660
02-21-2012, 1:35 PM
(c) Any firearm or ammunition sold, distributed, transferred, or manufactured or any handgun possessed within the City and County of San Francisco in violation of the provisions of Police Code Section 3600A is hereby declared to be a nuisance, and shall be surrendered to the Police Department of the City and County of San Francisco. The Chief of Police is authorized to seize such firearms, ammunition and handguns and shall destroy or cause to be destroyed such firearms, ammunition and handguns, except upon the certificate of a judge of a court of record, or of the District Attorney that the preservation thereof is necessary or proper to the ends of justice.

Just like the standard capacity mags in California. Not illegal to possess, but they can take them away.

Librarian
02-21-2012, 2:28 PM
Just like the standard capacity mags in California. Not illegal to possess, but they can take them away.

ARTICLE 36:
PROHIBITING THE CARRYING OF A FIREARM WHILE UNDER THE INFLUENCE OF AN ALCOHOLIC BEVERAGE OR DRUG, OR POSSESSION OF A FIREARM WHILE UPON PUBLIC PREMISES SELLING OR SERVING ALCOHOLIC BEVERAGES
3600a - (a) Persons under the influence of an alcoholic beverage or drug frequently lack the normal restraint and judgment that would ordinarily prevent them from initiating or escalating criminal or domestic violence.
Not a general law.

paul0660
02-21-2012, 2:35 PM
3600a -
Not a general law.

I have to go (to the range btw) but I am not finding those cites in your original link, Librarian. I do not doubt that they are there.

Librarian
02-21-2012, 2:57 PM
I have to go (to the range btw) but I am not finding those cites in your original link, Librarian. I do not doubt that they are there.

Use the left-side navigation column to open the Police Code; site seems not to like direct links to pages some of the time.

rromeo
02-21-2012, 3:56 PM
If you say something enough times, it will become true.

Kid Stanislaus
02-21-2012, 5:55 PM
If you say something enough times, it will become true.

Joseph Goebbles would be proud!!

themethod
02-21-2012, 8:46 PM
So the big question... Is this strictly vendor policy as it appears or is there some prodding or persuasion by SF. Regardless of the existence or validity of any ammo law, it is obviously not enforceable by the city. And it is hard to believe that a business would refuse sales without some real threat.

Must be something we're missing here.

cruising7388
02-21-2012, 11:00 PM
I would say this is a vendor issue and not a city issue. Although SF is known for adopting some pretty stupid laws. There are plenty of vendors who choose not to ship to some or all locations in CA, simply becuase of the ridiculousness of our laws. I'd say give them a call. If it can't be hashed out, find a vendor who'll ship.

There is a one word solution: CABELAS

wizdumb
02-21-2012, 11:24 PM
Grafs used to but will no longer ship me loaded ammo in SF, at least that's the bounce back notice I get from them when trying to order. Components are no problem. Same thing with Cabelas.

Re Midway, they won't even ship reloading components such as bullets or brass. I've tried dealing with them and "our lawyers tell us ...." is the response I've gotten from Potterfield's office, I've given up on them on this subject.


I've purchased and received reloading components (bullets and brass) from Midway here in SF multiple times. I think the last thing I ordered was a 500ct box of 175gr SMK just last August. Have you had different results more recently?

Librarian
02-22-2012, 12:31 AM
So the big question... Is this strictly vendor policy as it appears or is there some prodding or persuasion by SF. Regardless of the existence or validity of any ammo law, it is obviously not enforceable by the city. And it is hard to believe that a business would refuse sales without some real threat.

Must be something we're missing here.

The behavior suggests corporate lawyers unfamiliar with California law but all too familiar with the wild imaginings of the California legislature and its members.

dfletcher
02-22-2012, 9:32 AM
I've purchased and received reloading components (bullets and brass) from Midway here in SF multiple times. I think the last thing I ordered was a 500ct box of 175gr SMK just last August. Have you had different results more recently?

Tried to order a few months back and could not. Just to check I tried a few minutes ago, put a box of Hornady VMax bullets only into my cart (nothing else) and as soon as I entered my SF shipping address got this pop up:

We're sorry, but City or State law prohibits us from sending item(s) in your cart to the address you have specified.

•Your city or state law prohibits us from shipping any part of a cartridge to your shipping address.

wizdumb
02-27-2012, 10:14 PM
Tried to order a few months back and could not. Just to check I tried a few minutes ago, put a box of Hornady VMax bullets only into my cart (nothing else) and as soon as I entered my SF shipping address got this pop up:

We're sorry, but City or State law prohibits us from sending item(s) in your cart to the address you have specified.

•Your city or state law prohibits us from shipping any part of a cartridge to your shipping address.

That's interesting, and frustrating.

el chivo
02-28-2012, 2:59 AM
Even sales of goldfish are illegal there. No shock they stop ammunition sales.

yeah but you can get all the gerbils you want, no problem.

CrazyPhuD
02-28-2012, 4:08 AM
yeah but you can get all the gerbils you want, no problem.

Well as long as you don't try to use them as projectiles you can.

glenbear
02-28-2012, 11:30 AM
Asked if this occurred recently

Yes just a few days ago from Midway USA had purchased exact same ammo in July and October of 2011

bodger
02-28-2012, 11:37 AM
I had the same issue with Midway a while back. I live in Los Angeles. When I biatched to Midway, I got the same "Our lawyers tell us..." boilerplate response.

So I stopped doing business with Midway for anything, not just ammo. Plenty of vendors will ship my ammo right to my door via UPS. So screw Midway.

I have heard that Midway does business with the LAPD but I have nothing to substantiate that rumor. In any case, Midway obviously fears the LA City Council and their anti-gun pissant rules so I do business elsewhere.

glenbear
02-28-2012, 11:44 AM
Hello,

Unsatisfied with Midway just saying NO I pressed them for exactly which statute and section they were basing their unwillingness to ship to San Francisco address on.
First reply was Article 9 Section 613... I pressed further and asked that since 613 was huge in size and scope, WHICH SPECIFIC SECTION of 613....
Their reply was 613.1
I read 613.1 and don't see anything that would prevent them from shipping to SF 'excepting, possibly, "lethality enhancing" (Hollow Points) ammo' .... So I press further and get this reply ...

Due to California's stringent laws on who can purchase ammunition based on where they live we have chosen to respect their laws and not sell ammunition to those persons with addresses residing in those respected cities. It's not that we don't want to sell ammunition to you, it's when cities make it so difficult to sell in those areas we choose not too.

AND....

We do not hold the proper licenses to sell to those persons living in the city of San Francisco as it is stated in the Article below.

That's what I have so far, think your point re uninformed corporate lawyers is right on.

G

curisu
03-02-2012, 5:13 PM
I just now put an order through for a value pack of WWB .45ACP at Cabelas; Bill & Ship-to addy in San Francisco.

*shrug*

curisu
03-10-2012, 9:02 AM
While there are some retailers that will ship to SF, the smaller (and cheaper) ammo suppliers usually won't. To that effect, I sent an email to sales@freedommunitions.com inquiring about shipping to SF.

The reply i received this morning:
You are right we dont have enough inquires to apply at this time, sorry

It sounds like if there was enough noise from SF residents, they would be willing to jump through the hoops.

I'm here to ask all of you (not just SF residents) to take 10secs and send a quick email to sales@freedommunitions.com and ask about applying for a SF permit.

Thank you.
-chris

doug-y-doug
03-10-2012, 12:30 PM
I don't know what the deal is. A handful of vendors won't ship to Berkeley either, even though most will.

jaysend
04-04-2012, 1:58 PM
The way I see it, there are plenty of vendors who want my business and make it easy for me to purchase what I need. I will not give my business to people who do not want my business or make it too difficult unless I have no other choice. Gun laws are complicated and ever changing not just in California but most major cities NY, Chicago, Miami etc.. It is the business they chose. If they cant be bothered with keeping up on the laws that pertain to their business I wonder about them as a business...
I will not purchase anything from Midway. LA Police Gear is the only exception to my rule cause they have such great stuff at great prices, I just pretend they dont sell ammo.

Oracle01
04-04-2012, 5:11 PM
I'm in Orange County and some ammo suppliers will not ship hear. I contacted my County Supervisor about mail order ammo restrictions and got an email reply that there were no restrictions in force. I scan and e-mail a copy of that to each supplier when I order, no issues yet.

Big Ben
04-05-2012, 9:51 AM
While Prop H was struck down, SF still has an ordinance requiring the purchaser to "presents clear evidence of his or her identity and age to the seller." It would be difficult (but not impossible) to accomplish this with mail order sales.

It would seem to me that the vendors that DO ship to SF are likely violating the local ordinance (I doubt they are getting evidence of the buyers identity).

SEC. 613.10. LICENSE-CONDITIONS.

(e) The licensee shall not deliver any firearm, firearm ammunition, or firearm ammunition component to a purchaser, lessee or other transferee unless the purchaser, lessee or other transferee presents clear evidence of his or her identity and age to the seller. As used in this Section, "clear evidence of his or her identity and age" includes, but is not limited to, a motor vehicle operator's license, a State identification card, an armed forces identification card, an employment identification card which contains the bearer's signature and photograph, or any similar documentation which provides the seller reasonable assurance of the identity and age of the purchaser.

See link:
http://www.amlegal.com/nxt/gateway.dll/California/police/article9miscellaneousconductregulations?f=template s$fn=default.htm$3.0$vid=amlegal:sanfrancisco_ca$a nc=JD_613.10

authorization66
04-05-2012, 12:42 PM
so...has anybody bought bulk ammo online and had it shipped to an SF address?

What supplier?

Closest Wal-mart that sells bulk ammo is in the south bay. ugh.

wizdumb
04-05-2012, 9:40 PM
Crossroads of the West will be at Cow Palace April 14th and 15th. You can get all the ammo you can afford and avoid shipping fees.

jaysend
04-09-2012, 4:48 PM
I live in San Francisco an buy 1k-5k rounds at a time online. I dont know if that counts as bulk for you but I ve never had a problem. I have had to fax a copy of my ID to most places but I just scan it and send it in.
Cabelas, Ammotogo, RM Ammo, able ammo.

jaysend
04-10-2012, 12:57 PM
I have been trying to get LA Policegear to tell me why they wont ship to San Francisco:

First response:

"Thanks for the recent email! Unfortunately San Francisco has some of the strictest gun and ammo laws in the country. Unfortunately we are unable to ship to this location. I’m sorry for any inconvenience."

Upon asking for clarification:

"I’m terribly sorry but it is in our company policy put in place by upper management. Unfortunately I don’t have any way of overriding it, so we are unauthorized to sell the ammunition to you."

I am still working on getting an actual reason.