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View Full Version : My new M&P, can't hit broad side of a barn door


Fizz
02-20-2012, 3:16 PM
I'm sure it's me. Though I've never had an issue with any other pistol (haven't shot an M&P before purchase though), this is the first one that I've personally owned.

My POI seems to want to use the bottom portion of the front sight. No real issue with going down and left (I'm right handed), just down. For perspective, 8 Inch Shoot N Cs at ~25 feet I'm just below the target. Not to say that I'm not flinching, I probably am, but I don't think it's a recoil anticipation flinch as much as it may be a trigger action induced flinch. Though, at the same time practicing dry fire at home I don't see any movement of the sight when the break occurs. Might be different during live fire.

I'm going to be that 'carpenter that blames his tools' so I have an Apex FSS/Trigger kit incoming and that should eliminate the my not being used to this trigger style causing the issue. Though, if it doesn't, what else should I look at?

If anyone's in San Diego proficient with the M&P 40 wants to embarrass me with my own gun on my ammo and/or willing to let me shoot theirs, let me know. I think I may need to see this gun shot well or have the same issue with one that's known to work well for it to register in my head that I'm to blame. :laugh:

mr00jimbo
02-20-2012, 3:23 PM
25 feet is just over 8 yards. Any way you can bring the target closer? Try it at 4-5 yards. I see some very good shots practice at 3-5 yards. And I see a lot of people who put their target out so far they can't see what they're hitting and wonder why they don't improve. I was one of the latter group now I practice closer.

Bring it close, say 3 yards. Get used to shooting out the middle, practice good trigger control. Move it out further gradually.

Best of luck, I hear the M&Ps are great! :)

Dhena81
02-20-2012, 3:30 PM
Start shooting closer you need practice it's not easy to shoot pistols consistently well most people really suck with a pistol.

I haven't heard of problems with the M&P .40 but I have heard of reports of really bad M&P 9mm I think people blamed the barrel twist. Some guy on M4Carbine.net had 2 9mm M&P's and one was shooting 2-3 MOA and the other was shooting 8-9 MOA if I recall testing was done on a bench with defensive ammo.

Fizz
02-20-2012, 3:35 PM
And I see a lot of people who put their target out so far they can't see what they're hitting and wonder why they don't improve. I was one of the latter group now I practice closer.

Bring it close, say 3 yards. Get used to shooting out the middle, practice good trigger control. Move it out further gradually.

Best of luck, I hear the M&Ps are great! :)

Agreed and point taken.

Jpcm
02-20-2012, 3:43 PM
The m&p doesn't have a great trigger but it's not that bad. Keep practicing by dry firing. Make sure Double check to make sure it's unloaded. Dry fire makes you realize how much you jerk the trigger. Also get some snap caps and have a friend load the magazine with a snap cap randomly located in the mix that way you can see if your anticipating recoil

Fizz
02-20-2012, 3:53 PM
Start shooting closer you need practice it's not easy to shoot pistols consistently well most people really suck with a pistol.

I haven't heard of problems with the M&P .40 but I have heard of reports of really bad M&P 9mm I think people blamed the barrel twist. Some guy on M4Carbine.net had 2 9mm M&P's and one was shooting 2-3 MOA and the other was shooting 8-9 MOA if I recall testing was done on a bench with defensive ammo.

Hey now, don't get give me any ammo to blame my tools, I might just convince myself. :laugh:

dexter9659
02-20-2012, 4:08 PM
Your barrel could be regulated for a different weight bullet. Bullet weight can impact the height of impact.

sammy
02-20-2012, 4:15 PM
I don't own one but have shot lots of others M&P's. They have all shot point of aim with the exception of one example which shot 1" low and 2" right. If you are use to a 1911, Sig or similar gun with a better trigger the M&P will take some getting use to. Load up both mags with 50% live and 50% snap caps randomly. Shuffle the mags and load the gun. When you hit the snap cap that will tell you if your are flinching and how bad it is. The good news it is probably you and not the gun. Good luck!! Sammy

Fizz
02-20-2012, 4:35 PM
Your barrel could be regulated for a different weight bullet. Bullet weight can impact the height of impact.

I'll pick up some 165's next time around and see. Specs on the interwebs seem to indicate that the marginal differences in bullet weight actually result in pretty significant differences in muzzle velocities and energy at range due to factors mostly outside of the direct bullet weight, which ostensibly could be related.

Fizz
02-20-2012, 4:43 PM
I don't own one but have shot lots of others M&P's. They have all shot point of aim with the exception of one example which shot 1" low and 2" right. If you are use to a 1911, Sig or similar gun with a better trigger the M&P will take some getting use to. Load up both mags with 50% live and 50% snap caps randomly. Shuffle the mags and load the gun. When you hit the snap cap that will tell you if your are flinching and how bad it is. The good news it is probably you and not the gun. Good luck!! Sammy

The Apex kit is supposed to make the M&P Trigger mimic the 1911. I've never had an issue shooting 1911s so hopefully this does 'it' for me, if it doesn't solve the problem entirely it'll still be better off than the stock trigger.

Can't say I particularly like the passive trigger safety with the lower half of the trigger pivoting. The glock-style trigger safety with the Apex makes a lot more sense to me.

CCCTTC
02-20-2012, 4:46 PM
I would definitely not blame the tool [I]quite[I] yet...LOL... defnitely practice closer, and get some good groups (no matter where they are on the paper) and then see what's what. move out in 2-3 yard incerments until you are far enough away that you are "satisfied" with your performance. There are also now "snap cap" type devices that have a laser in them (or you can use a proper boresight laser device) to look at your flinching during dry fire. Just using the sights, you may not see it, especially if you blink when you pull the trigger. the sights won't "move" because you didnt see them, but with the laser, its a MUCH better indicator and can be followed to see if you are flinching, jerking, anticipating or whatever the case may be with trigger pul. OR just get a regular laser for it (the M&P BEGS for a laser...LOL...more toys!!!) and use that. yes you will go through batteries, but they are in fact cheaper than bullets.

Bill Steele
02-20-2012, 4:50 PM
Shooting from a rest at 7 yards will take mechanical issues and sights out of the picture real fast. Just sayn'.

sammy
02-20-2012, 4:52 PM
The Apex kit is supposed to make the M&P Trigger mimic the 1911. I've never had an issue shooting 1911s so hopefully this does 'it' for me, if it doesn't solve the problem entirely it'll still be better off than the stock trigger.

Can't say I particularly like the passive trigger safety with the lower half of the trigger pivoting. The glock-style trigger safety with the Apex makes a lot more sense to me.

You can spend money making the trigger better but learning how to shoot it stock will help you more.

When I was new (not saying you are new) to shooting I got a 1911 to help. It did make me shoot slightly better but it did not solve the real problem.

It took me many years (because no one showed me) to understand that Glocks were about as accurate as 1911's. It is just more difficult to shoot them accurately. If I slow fire my Glock at 15 yards I can keep 10 rounds in a silver dollar group, factory trigger and aftermarket sights. Let me say I don't have great talent. As a matter of fact I have very little talent which is part of the reason why it took me so long to get where I am.

Long story short, if you want the part go ahead but I don't think it will help you as a shooter in the long run.

Sammy

woods
02-20-2012, 4:53 PM
I can't shoot a m&p well for unknown reasons. I don't like them.

Give me a ruger or fn or springfield and I'm fine.

Guns and people are like that. It is as if you have to do your training all over and learn again.

Bring the target closer and find someone with a good pistol bench rest setup to test it out.

tbc
02-20-2012, 5:24 PM
OP. After plenty of dry firing, this is the best I can do with my M&P 9c stock trigger. A five inch group at 7 yards in 20 rounds. And I don't why I kept taking this one to the range.

http://img.tapatalk.com/46bb8a2d-f23d-062f.jpg

echang86
02-20-2012, 5:28 PM
You should try and hit up m4carbine.net and sift through their M&P threads. From what I remember, there are a few lemon M&P's out there that have accuracy issues.

Soul_Cal
02-20-2012, 5:44 PM
OP. After plenty of dry firing, this is the best I can do with my M&P 9c stock trigger. A five inch group at 7 yards in 20 rounds. And I don't why I kept taking this one to the range.

http://img.tapatalk.com/46bb8a2d-f23d-062f.jpg

Not bad at all. I've also got a M&P 9c. The back of the manual states that at 7 yards the pistol should be good for 1.7". If you don't count the couple flyers, you are almost there.

Shenaniguns
02-20-2012, 8:53 PM
You should try and hit up m4carbine.net and sift through their M&P threads. From what I remember, there are a few lemon M&P's out there that have accuracy issues.


I'm involved in those threads as well as others on other forums, the problem is mainly with some Full Size 9mm beyond 15 yards / 45 feet and farther. The op needs to dry fire to get use to the trigger since it's most likely poor trigger control which is common with the brand new M&P triggers that are poor from the factory.


I skipped breaking in the trigger and sent it to Apex Tactical, and both my FS9 and 9c have mid-pack accuracy at 25 yards/75 feet.

Shenaniguns
02-20-2012, 8:58 PM
Not bad at all. I've also got a M&P 9c. The back of the manual states that at 7 yards the pistol should be good for 1.7". If you don't count the couple flyers, you are almost there.


I need to find my manuals, cause if it says that I may sell them... That's not good IMO.

rsrocket1
02-20-2012, 9:02 PM
You can convince yourself it's not the gun by shooting it from a rest. I line up the 3 dots and put the center dot on the target, not below. I also have a tough time with my m&p40 probably because it's so much lighter than my 1911 which throws much heavier bullets at nearly the same speed.
It took nearly a thousand 45's to get decent with the 1911 and so far after a couple k in the m&p, I'm slowly getting better.

speeddreamz
02-20-2012, 9:12 PM
I would look at your grouping, if you're consistently shooting low in the same place, it is possible the gun is off. If your grouping isn't good for sure its you.

tbc
02-20-2012, 9:16 PM
I need to find my manuals, cause if it says that I may sell them... That's not good IMO.

Here you go. I just check

http://img.tapatalk.com/46bb8a2d-28c1-2616.jpg

Soul_Cal
02-20-2012, 9:21 PM
I need to find my manuals, cause if it says that I may sell them... That's not good IMO.

Keep in mind this is for a barrel length shorter than 3" (i.e. 9c compact gun). The manual states 14 yards = 3.9" and 21 yards = 6.3" but each handgun may have a better accuracy than this certification.

Does anyone have the manual for a Full-Size M&P? (Just curious what the numbers are.)

Shenaniguns
02-20-2012, 9:29 PM
Keep in mind this is for a barrel length shorter than 3" (i.e. 9c compact gun). The manual states 14 yards = 3.9" and 21 yards = 6.3" but each handgun may have a better accuracy than this certification.

Does anyone have the manual for a Full-Size M&P? (Just curious what the numbers are.)


Even at 25 yards that is poor for that barrel length, I'm glad that mine actually perform better than that but I will probably not buy another M&P 9mm until they sort out the accuracy inconsistencies. It shouldn't be a crap shoot if you're getting a semi-accurate gun or not.

Fizz
02-20-2012, 9:30 PM
You can convince yourself it's not the gun by shooting it from a rest. I line up the 3 dots and put the center dot on the target, not below. I also have a tough time with my m&p40 probably because it's so much lighter than my 1911 which throws much heavier bullets at nearly the same speed.
It took nearly a thousand 45's to get decent with the 1911 and so far after a couple k in the m&p, I'm slowly getting better.

Is the center dot supposed to be the POA/POI? I'm used to my sight picture being the front sight just below the POI. For example, with the Shoot N C targets the front sight looks like a lollipop with orange candy for how I want to shoot. I can't find anything that the system is supposed to a point of impact front sight.

Shenaniguns
02-20-2012, 9:32 PM
BTW, that doesn't apply to the M&P 9c since. it has a 3.5" barrel.

Shenaniguns
02-20-2012, 9:35 PM
Is the center dot supposed to be the POA/POI? I'm used to my sight picture being the front sight just below the POI. For example, with the Shoot N C targets the front sight looks like a lollipop with orange candy for how I want to shoot. I can't find anything that the system is supposed to a point of impact front sight.

7 yards in I use the middle of the tritium at speed, past that I line up the top of the sights for poi on top of the sights lined up. It's also ammo dependent.

tbc
02-20-2012, 9:36 PM
BTW, that doesn't apply to the M&P 9c since. it has a 3.5" barrel.

Good catch! :) It was user error for sure. Just need more practice. I am not giving up on the stock trigger yet. :)

USMC 82-86
02-20-2012, 10:03 PM
I can't believe in all these post not one person gave the proper advice. If you are having trouble hitting the broad side of the barn, next time go inside shut the door and that should solve the problem. I feel certain you will be able to hit any side you choose.:D;)

Sorry I couldn't resist. Hope you get the problem cleared up soon.

Blackhawk556
02-20-2012, 10:37 PM
My compact is shooting fine. Here is my group standing at 21 feet

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g146/du9207/Savage%20arms/Springfield%20EMP%209mm/th_ab8e6e5a.jpg (http://s55.photobucket.com/albums/g146/du9207/Savage%20arms/Springfield%20EMP%209mm/?action=view&current=ab8e6e5a.jpg)

Blackhawk556
02-20-2012, 10:55 PM
Is the center dot supposed to be the POA/POI? I'm used to my sight picture being the front sight just below the POI. For example, with the Shoot N C targets the front sight looks like a lollipop with orange candy for how I want to shoot. I can't find anything that the system is supposed to a point of impact front sight.

On my compact the bullet will hit where ever the front dot it pointing. So yes, POA/poi

Both my full size and compact M&Ps are that way. If I try the lollipop way, it will shoot low. Can you post pictures of how you shoot with other guns?

I've watched this video many times and my shooting improved a lot. Try it.
-Yohikhl9_c&nomobile=1

Coded-Dude
02-20-2012, 10:58 PM
too bad the M&P22 is not on "the list" (threaded barrel).....I wanted one.

Fizz
02-20-2012, 11:47 PM
On my compact the bullet will hit where ever the front dot it pointing. So yes, POA/poi

Both my full size and compact M&Ps are that way. If I try the lollipop way, it will shoot low. Can you post pictures of how you shoot with other guns?

I've watched this video many times and my shooting improved a lot. Try it.
-Yohikhl9_c&nomobile=1

I have this picture from Friday. I went with friends with limited experience so that's most of the peppering. But I know these groups to be mostly mine.

The orange over the sternum was 3 dots recycled from the shoot n c packs, shot one of those off. The other ones, erm, well, you get the idea. :p

The lower group was lollipoping the front sight and moving the shots up, the upper was using the area right below the front dot.

http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/2240/mariagc.jpg

Thanks for the vid.

chim-chim7
02-21-2012, 12:22 AM
My M&P 40 is a lazer.

9mmepiphany
02-21-2012, 1:23 AM
I sounds like you sight alignment is off (you're aiming low) and looking at your groups, my first guess would be that either your grip is applying uneven pressure or you're tightening your fingers as you press the trigger...It is hard to tell without seeing you shoot.

I'm not a .40 fan, but the M&P40s I've shot (only about 3) have been accurate...all would place their shots on top of each other at 7 yards. As a matter of full disclosure, you can't always do that by aiming with the front dot...you have to align to the tops of the sights and bisect the target.

It isn't hard to shoot accurately, you just have to use the correct techniques. I recently had a client who was about to sell his .40 because he couldn't keep the shots inside 6-8" at 7 yards. With a little coaching, I got him inside 2" in about a box of ammo.

I'd highly recommend getting some professional instruction by someone who actually understand accurate shooing. It will save you a lot of money is ammo and avoid building bad habits

Blackhawk556
02-21-2012, 1:56 AM
Were your friends shooting really fast? Those groups are huge. Tell them to slow down and start shooting at three yards. No point on shooting at targets out past five yards if they can't shoot a decent group. When ever I see people hitting all over the place I think they are just wasting ammo and not learning how to shoot correctly.

Start at three yards and once you master this distance, move back to five yards. Once you master five yards, move another two yards back. Keep doing this until you see improvement.

That video I posted early helped me so much it's not even funny. About two weeks ago I took my mom shooting and explained everything Todd says in that video. You wouldn't believe how well she did. I even have video of her shooting, so proud of her :)

Fizz
02-21-2012, 2:18 AM
Were your friends shooting really fast? Those groups are huge. Tell them to slow down and start shooting at three yards. No point on shooting at targets out past five yards if they can't shoot a decent group. When ever I see people hitting all over the place I think they are just wasting ammo and not learning how to shoot correctly.

Start at three yards and once you master this distance, move back to five yards. Once you master five yards, move another two yards back. Keep doing this until you see improvement.

That video I posted early helped me so much it's not even funny. About two weeks ago I took my mom shooting and explained everything Todd says in that video. You wouldn't believe how well she did. I even have video of her shooting, so proud of her :)

The Zombie target was towards the end of the session and they were just looking to send lead down range. They bankrolled the ammo so I said go for it.

sanjosebmx
02-21-2012, 8:18 AM
I was in a training class once, and a shooter was having big accuracy issues. I mean barely hitting her target bad.

The instructor had her line up her sights, and HE pulled the trigger. The shot went in the center of the bullseye.

It's usually not the gun.

sd_shooter
02-21-2012, 8:58 AM
http://brasstard.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/correct-sight-alignment.jpg

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/21/94861604_d39105a0e6.jpg

http://img71.imageshack.us/img71/6821/correcttargetpistolsighym7.jpg

http://www.pointshooting.com/sightpic.jpg

http://www.pistoldefense.com/images/203_Sight_Alignment.JPG

http://www.bullseyepistol.com/wheel.gif

Shenaniguns
02-21-2012, 9:13 AM
That is the sight picture I use.

AdiosKali
02-21-2012, 9:21 AM
If you are up around the IE, I'd love to shoot it.

My M&P puts out respectable groups that I am happy with.

tbc
02-21-2012, 1:15 PM
Yep. That how I hold the M&P. Do you guys call this "point of aim"? I wonder if there is a proper term for this?

Shadowhawk012
02-21-2012, 1:42 PM
my M&P45 shoots amazingly. 5 round group in a hole about an inch wide @ 7 yards. adjusted my grip and shot bullseye all day.

my M&P9 is just as good. 90% of missed shots are due to bad trigger control and poor sight alignment (i know cause i couldn't hit s**t before when i started).

put a penny on your front sight and try to dry fire without making it fall. throw some snap caps into your mags when at the range! :)

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/417497_10150681197479155_567759154_11590303_208676 2749_n.jpg

9mmepiphany
02-21-2012, 2:46 PM
Yep. That how I hold the M&P. Do you guys call this "point of aim"? I wonder if there is a proper term for this?

Having the bulls eye sitting above the front sight, of your aligned sights, is called the 6 o'clock hold.

Aiming by aligning your sights and then placing the front dot on where you want to hit is called "Driving the Dots" or "Combat Aiming"

Aligning your sights and placing the top of your front sight in the middle of your intended POI (shots striking at the top of your front blade) is called bisecting the target/center...we used to call it the Combat or Fighting sighting/aiming (before the advent of dots)

El Gato
02-21-2012, 3:00 PM
from my experience, some guns take some breaking in...

we have a glock 34 that shot very far left...like the truglo rear sight was hanging slightly off of the slide...after about 3000 rounds however it mysteriously started to shoot more and more to center... now the sight is centered... weird..but true...

It has been my experience that glocks tend to shoot a bit left and stay that way..this gun is an anomoly...

both of our M&P 9mm's and both of the 40's shoot centered up and perfect for elevation...one of the 9mm's is a performance center gun...which has an APEX RAM in it ...the 40's have full APEX goodness and the APEX trigger job is way better than the smith performance center trigger...by the by

Monticore
02-21-2012, 3:21 PM
http://brasstard.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/correct-sight-alignment.jpg

I had the same "problem" with my M&P at first.
Besides trying to He-Man my grip in hopes of recoil mitigation, I did not realize at first my sight picture was wrong.

The picture that was posted is the perfect example of what my sight picture NOW looks like. Look at the dots carefully and you will see the front dot is NOT inline with the rear dots. If you line them up like I was doing you will shoot low every time. With black sights on a black target it is hard to see the tops of the sights, but just like in this picture the tops are the most important part. I would start my sight picture away from the black part of the target, onto the brown part, and align with the bulls-eye before firing.

POA/POI-
My experience tells me that the sights are straight down the barrel and that POI will always be lower than POA by the distance between the center of the dot and the center of the barrel. Maybe 1/4" or 3/8"? In my opinion, until the distance is so far out that bullet drop becomes a concern, the POA is the POI is what I say.

My guess is that once you get what I'm saying about the sight picture your groups will come up a bit.
Zac

Fizz
02-21-2012, 3:47 PM
from my experience, some guns take some breaking in...

If my Apex kit comes in during the week most likely I'll have 1050 Rds through it in total by this weekend.

Break in is expensive, luckily I know enough other people that want to shoot it that they're bank rolling the break in for me. :laugh:

Fizz
02-21-2012, 3:55 PM
Yep. That how I hold the M&P. Do you guys call this "point of aim"? I wonder if there is a proper term for this?

How you 'hold' your M&P or how you sight your M&P?

My hand position is such that my right thumb rests near the slide lock pointed forward and my left thumb is pointed forward/up-ish but on the takedown lever.

The thumbs then mostly marry and the meaty part of the thumb/palm make a nice seal. The textured surfaces make for a consistent point of reference for my hands to come to.

Monticore
02-21-2012, 3:56 PM
If my Apex kit comes in during the week most likely I'll have 1050 Rds through it in total by this weekend.

Break in is expensive, luckily I know enough other people that want to shoot it that they're bank rolling the break in for me. :laugh:

After about 1k rounds, plus a few hundred dry fires, I also installed the APEX DCAEK.
I won't say it was a waste of money, but I did not feel a big difference.
The reset was slightly more noticeable. For me, that's about it.

I had grown accustomed to the so-so trigger and it got better with use as well.

YMMV though.

tbc
02-21-2012, 4:02 PM
Thanks 9mmepiphany for the proper terms.

Just came out from the shooting range. Took a half day off :D.

Here is my grouping with the m&p 9c at 7 yards:
http://img.tapatalk.com/c6e4dd02-2f16-4279.jpg

And when I switched to my fnp9, the grouping improved:
http://img.tapatalk.com/c6e4dd02-2f9a-41f6.jpg

I know it is NOT the gun....

Fizz
02-21-2012, 4:07 PM
After about 1k rounds, plus a few hundred dry fires, I also installed the APEX DCAEK.
I won't say it was a waste of money, but I did not feel a big difference.
The reset was slightly more noticeable. For me, that's about it.

I had grown accustomed to the so-so trigger and it got better with use as well.

YMMV though.

Yeah I went with the Forward Set Sear and Trigger kit. I have to REALLY consciously avoid pulling the trigger in such a manner that causes the muzzle to drop anything faster than slow fire. If I pull the trigger quickly I do pull the muzzle down, I think part of this is the passive safety on the trigger. If I try to pull the trigger back 1911 style the safety might briefly catch on the frame. As a result I place my finger lower on the trigger and I think causes me to pull in a downward direction vs straight back and my finger isn't pointed as straight as it wants to be.

As I mentioned the Apex trigger kit makes the trigger Glock style for the safety bar, and purportedly 1911 style for the pull. Apex says the result is a 4-5 pound trigger with just this kit. Hopefully this is closer to what I'm used to.

natrab
02-21-2012, 4:59 PM
Honestly, I had the same experience with my M&P 9 Pro. The trigger on it was absolutely awful. Trigger movement equated to scraping against coarse sand paper and I found myself having difficulty smoothly squeezing the trigger (my finger pressure had to vary so much during the trigger pull that by the time it fired I was focused more on the trigger pull than my aim). I also have the FSS kit getting installed now and hope it will help.

My grouping with any of my other guns is just fine.

Fizz
02-21-2012, 5:11 PM
My grouping with any of my other guns is just fine.

I wonder what would have happened had we started with M&P style triggers then moved to the 'others'? I wonder if the issue would have occurred to the same degree, or even at all?

Monticore
02-21-2012, 5:21 PM
Honestly, I had the same experience with my M&P 9 Pro. The trigger on it was absolutely awful. Trigger movement equated to scraping against coarse sand paper and I found myself having difficulty smoothly squeezing the trigger (my finger pressure had to vary so much during the trigger pull that by the time it fired I was focused more on the trigger pull than my aim). I also have the FSS kit getting installed now and hope it will help.

My grouping with any of my other guns is just fine.

I like your sandpaper analogy.
I tell people the stock M&P trigger is like breaking a chem light.
More of a crunch, where most other triggers are like breaking a pencil.

natrab
02-21-2012, 5:41 PM
If we had all started with M&P stock triggers, we'd probably have decided we didn't like shooting. It's completely unusable in that state really. Maybe 1500 rounds would break it in, but an Apex kit is cheaper and requires less sad break in shooting.

Gryff
02-21-2012, 5:59 PM
25 feet is just over 8 yards. Any way you can bring the target closer? Try it at 4-5 yards. I see some very good shots practice at 3-5 yards. And I see a lot of people who put their target out so far they can't see what they're hitting and wonder why they don't improve. I was one of the latter group now I practice closer.

Bring it close, say 3 yards. Get used to shooting out the middle, practice good trigger control. Move it out further gradually.

I have to disagree. If you want to know whether you are shooting a gun well, you need to push the target out farther. I think 8-10 yards is the ideal point to start because it is close enough that you should have no problem seeing the center of the target, but far enough away that flawed mechanics (grip, trigger press, sight alignment) are going to be more noticeable. Pull the target in too close, and it will usually mask your less-extreme flaws.

The Apex kit is supposed to make the M&P Trigger mimic the 1911.

Trust me...you'll never make an M&P (or Glock or XD) have a 1911-comparable trigger. That being said, all three of those platforms have stock triggers that are not conducive to getting tight groups that reflect the true POA/POI but trigger jobs/kits help make the guns easier to achieve better accuracy.

I will say that I'm a fan of getting proficient with a gun in its stock condition before customizing it. I think it makes you a better shooter to improve your skills so that you succeed with a stock gun before you trick it out (not to mention that it makes you appreciate the improvements all the more!).

Your barrel could be regulated for a different weight bullet. Bullet weight can impact the height of impact.

You shouldn't see that much difference from a service pistol using factory ammo at the distances the OP is shooting. I believe that M&P40s are sighted in with 180gr. ammo, but I'm not positive.


OP --> if you are shooting low and left (and you are right-handed), I almost guarantee that you just need to become more familiar with the M&P trigger. This is a common POI for new users of all the striker-fired, same-action pistols (M&P, Glock, XD).

Get some snap caps and dry-fire the heck out of the gun. You can even balance a coin or empty case on top of the slide over the muzzle to see if you are not using a smooth trigger press. If the coin moves, you aren't squeezing the trigger smoothly enough.

If you pay attention to your trigger-pull mechanics, you'll find that your groups will tighten up and pull up closer to the center of the target. Not to mention that the trigger will naturally get smoother with use, which will also improve your shooting.

Fizz
02-21-2012, 6:02 PM
Honestly, I had the same experience with my M&P 9 Pro. The trigger on it was absolutely awful. Trigger movement equated to scraping against coarse sand paper and I found myself having difficulty smoothly squeezing the trigger (my finger pressure had to vary so much during the trigger pull that by the time it fired I was focused more on the trigger pull than my aim). I also have the FSS kit getting installed now and hope it will help.

My grouping with any of my other guns is just fine.

I think the majority of the 'grit' comes from the trigger bar moving the striker block. The trigger bar's ramped striker block tang moves nearly parallel to the striker block surface, up at a slight angle. The chamfer on the striker block is small and steep, the Apex block cut looks large and the radius is a lot more gradual and the head a lot more smooth. This seems like an 'ease of manufacture' way to have it so the striker block can be disengaged without being affected by the position of the mag safety or sear lever; the tang can slide all over the block and still work. Reliable, simple system, but doesn't seem like it's conducive to a nice trigger pull? Though, S&W definitely needed to way balance cost/complexity/simplicity as it pertains to reliability when engineering this system given the intended market.

The plate that contacts the sear is also like a mm wide, I would expect a rolling assembly with a larger footprint to engage more smoothly than the dragging it wants to do. Though, such a system would surely conflict with the sear disengagement lever and mag release 'features.'

Sorry if I'm not using the right nomenclature. I'm mechanically inclined but new to firearm internals.

ShooterDK
02-21-2012, 6:17 PM
I just bought a M&P 40c. Being left handed I"ll be able to have the controls on "right" side. I had a Glock 27 and loved it but in all practicality it wasn't the best choice for me. This thread has given me some new insights M&P's. Thanks!

tbc
02-21-2012, 6:26 PM
How you 'hold' your M&P or how you sight your M&P?
to.

Same as you described on the thumbs. I align the barrel length and my arm length in a straight line.
http://img.tapatalk.com/46bb8a2d-522e-e5eb.jpg

And this how I sight:
http://img.tapatalk.com/46bb8a2d-525e-2f6f.jpg

nvision
02-22-2012, 12:13 AM
http://img.tapatalk.com/46bb8a2d-525e-2f6f.jpg


Interesting. Do all 3-dot sights aim like this or just with the M&P?

sd_shooter
02-22-2012, 6:47 AM
http://img.tapatalk.com/46bb8a2d-525e-2f6f.jpg


Interesting. Do all 3-dot sights aim like this or just with the M&P?

IMO it has nothing to do with the dots. The important part is to align the top edge of the back sight with the top edge of the front sight. The alignment is the same with black target sights. The dots are there only to help locate the sights under pressure. The sight pictures may have different names and sight blades may have different markings but it's all the same. M&P = Glock = XD = 1911 = Mosin 91/30 = AK = whatever.

The only gun I've ever encountered where the "dot" matters is the Ruger LCR. It has no rear sight blade and aiming is accomplished by covering the target with the dot.

NOTE: I'm not talking about combat tactics, only the sight alignment. "Focusing on the front sight" or "focus on the dot" are merely simplifications of the basic sight alignment which must still hold true.

tbc
02-22-2012, 6:53 AM
http://img.tapatalk.com/46bb8a2d-525e-2f6f.jpg


Interesting. Do all 3-dot sights aim like this or just with the M&P?

I use number 3 for my HKs and Sigs.
http://img.tapatalk.com/46bb8a2d-0156-77ea.jpg

JackRydden224
02-22-2012, 8:24 AM
You can always video yourself shooting at the range.

It wasn't until I used my phone to record myself at the range did I find out how little support my left hand was providing causing my shots to fly high to the right.

Gryff
02-22-2012, 10:47 AM
IMO it has nothing to do with the dots. The important part is to align the top edge of the back sight with the top edge of the front sight. The alignment is the same with black target sights.

That depends on what you want from your sights. For me, that front sight dot goes right over the top of my intended POI. This allows for rapid sight acquisition/application. Aligning the top edges is great for precision/bullseye work, but less effective for combat/defense/action-pistol shooting.

Whichever you choose, though, you need to find out how the gun is sighted in from the factory, and whether it is necessary to get a taller/shorter front sight to adjust the POI to achieve what you want. But at 10 yards, the difference in POI between the sight application styles (dot on intended POI, or top edge of sight on the intended POI) should be nominal (no more than 2-3 inches difference).

9mmepiphany
02-22-2012, 10:55 AM
I use number 3 for my HKs and Sigs.
http://img.tapatalk.com/46bb8a2d-0156-77ea.jpg
Several guns are coming from the factory with that sight alignment as standard. It is the manufacturers responding to the public's demand for 3-dot sighting systems.

The greatest downside in using this sighting system to align your sights is that you are limiting your potential accuracy to the area delineated/covered by the front blade. The other disadvantage is that 3-dot systems are slower to be perceived as aligned, when compared to plain black sights or a single dot on the front blade...be it fiber optic, brass bead or paint...for multiple (follow up) shots

Monticore
02-22-2012, 11:42 AM
Several guns are coming from the factory with that sight alignment as standard. It is the manufacturers responding to the public's demand for 3-dot sighting systems.

The greatest downside in using this sighting system to align your sights is that you are limiting your potential accuracy to the area delineated/covered by the front blade. The other disadvantage is that 3-dot systems are slower to be perceived as aligned, when compared to plain black sights or a single dot on the front blade...be it fiber optic, brass bead or paint...for multiple (follow up) shots

The double-whammy for me and my M&P40 was using Sight Image 2, making my POI lower that my POA at farther distances PLUS aligning the dots like in the pic. But what the pic does not illustrate, at least for the M&P is that if you align the dots, the more important tops of the sights are not aligned, thus pushing the POI down even further. Add in recoil flinch, and I HATED my M&P for a couple weeks. Then during dry fire against a white wall I realized all my problems with the sight picture and now my M&P are the best of friends, never to part.

Shenaniguns
02-22-2012, 11:48 AM
Monticore, you're over-complicating things. It might be a good idea to get some quality instruction.

Monticore
02-22-2012, 11:52 AM
Monticore, you're over-complicating things. It might be a good idea to get some quality instruction.

I was, but a long time ago.
Hence the end of the story when I said "and now my M&P are the best of friends, never to part."

Just throwing out my own observations to help out the OP.
Funny... you haven't told the OP or anyone else the same thing...

Shenaniguns
02-22-2012, 11:55 AM
I was, but a long time ago.
Hence the end of the story when I said "and now my M&P are the best of friends, never to part."

Just throwing out my own observations to help out the OP.
Funny... you haven't told the OP or anyone else the same thing...


Everyone can benefit, but I was referring to the last post you made that made things unnecessarily complicated.

Fizz
02-22-2012, 1:12 PM
Everyone can benefit, but I was referring to the last post you made that made things unnecessarily complicated.

? :laugh:

MFZG8KQJni8

Monticore
02-22-2012, 2:02 PM
The double-whammy for me and my M&P40 was using Sight Image 2, making my POI lower that my POA at farther distances PLUS aligning the dots like in the pic. But what the pic does not illustrate, at least for the M&P is that if you align the dots, the more important tops of the sights are not aligned, thus pushing the POI down even further. Add in recoil flinch, and I HATED my M&P for a couple weeks. Then during dry fire against a white wall I realized all my problems with the sight picture and now my M&P are the best of friends, never to part.

Hey Fizz,
If you find this "unnecessarily complicated", PM me and I can word it better. From what I can tell I had an experience similar to yours and some things I found my be helpful to you.

Fizz
02-22-2012, 2:26 PM
Hey Fizz,
If you find this "unnecessarily complicated", PM me and I can word it better. From what I can tell I had an experience similar to yours and some things I found my be helpful to you.

No I got you, what I'm doing is picture 2 but the POI is closer to 3.

9mmepiphany
02-22-2012, 2:37 PM
Sight picture 2 will give you a better idea of how consistently you are shooting a as it gives a more precise aiming point

nvision
02-22-2012, 10:37 PM
I use number 3 for my HKs and Sigs.
http://img.tapatalk.com/46bb8a2d-0156-77ea.jpg

yeah that's why i've asked - #3 is what I've been using with all my pistols. i'll be gosh darned if i've been shooting them wrong all this time!

although i must agree, #2 seems more practical because i also find the front dot blade covering most of the [paper]target out in the range at 20+ yards.

Blackhawk556
02-23-2012, 2:37 AM
yeah that's why i've asked - #3 is what I've been using with all my pistols. i'll be gosh darned if i've been shooting them wrong all this time!

although i must agree, #2 seems more practical because i also find the front dot blade covering most of the [paper]target out in the range at 20+ yards.

My two M&Ps, cz, &1911 use number 3 as well. My XDm uses number one and I don't like it. I hear buying I higher/lower front sight can fix this. The problem is that I don't know what measurement I need.

Sent from Los Alamos Nuclear Facility

Darklyte27
02-23-2012, 5:52 AM
sometimes certain guns done work well with some people its just the way it is. i got a M&P first and shoot 3-5 inch groups at 15 yards, then i got a 1911 and my groups were tighter around 2-4 inch groups at 15 yards. a sig 2022 gets me groups similar to the M&P

Gryff
02-23-2012, 10:09 AM
yeah that's why i've asked - #3 is what I've been using with all my pistols. i'll be gosh darned if i've been shooting them wrong all this time!

although i must agree, #2 seems more practical because i also find the front dot blade covering most of the [paper]target out in the range at 20+ yards.

That's the trade off. Putting that front sight dot right on top of your target makes for very fast target/sight acquisition. But you lose precision out past 15 yards. For me, Sight Picture #3 is optimum because I am a competitive shooter and I simply want to put dot over the target and pull the trigger.


My two M&Ps, cz, &1911 use number 3 as well. My XDm uses number one and I don't like it. I hear buying I higher/lower front sight can fix this. The problem is that I don't know what measurement I need.

Shoot a group at 15 yards with the sight alignment style of your choice, then measure the distance the group is below/above your Point of Aim. It is possible that the manufacturer will be able to determine what height of front sight you will need with that information. Otherwise, contact Dawson Precision and they can probably help you.

Fizz
02-25-2012, 1:56 AM
Apex kit in, we'll see how tomorrow goes.

http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/9783/dsc02466v.jpg

Munny$hot
02-25-2012, 3:45 AM
Good video and all the basic steps on hold, trigger finger placement, stance, etc to get you going. I took a tactical pistol class not long ago where we shot targets at 7ft, 7yards, and 10 yards. If someone on your line missed the whole group had to run the filed. Needless to say we where running the whole day since people could not stay in the target area even at 7ft more than likely due to not having down the basics.

Fizz
02-25-2012, 4:51 PM
Groups tigtened up post trigger but the groups still low. If I use the dot on the front sight It's pretty dead on/POI. Do not like that sight picture. Are there any sights that are lower than the stock Smith?

Hipmatt
02-25-2012, 6:26 PM
Fwiw. I have a m&p .40. Just had it at the range the other day. I'm not a great shot, but my groups were better than expected. I have the targets still. From 7 yards and farther. I think at least my gun is pretty accurate.

natrab
02-25-2012, 7:26 PM
Went to the range for the first time after getting the Apex FSS in. Completely fixed it for me. Gun is dead on and I don't have to worry about the trigger pull. It's no 1911, but it's way better than any other striker-fired trigger I've tried.

dousan
02-25-2012, 8:26 PM
My truglo Tfo sights are like sight pic #2
I shot it today
Been disappointed because compared with my p229 I shoot the m&p 40 terrible. Groupings like 5" at 7 yards.
Today changed my finger location changed how I've been on the front sight and it tightened up
Still need to bring it more with me to the range.

Blackhawk556
02-26-2012, 1:55 AM
Went to the range for the first time after getting the Apex FSS in. Completely fixed it for me. Gun is dead on and I don't have to worry about the trigger pull. It's no 1911, but it's way better than any other striker-fired trigger I've tried.

I really need to get this kit pronto! did you install it your self? Easy?

Sent from Los Alamos Nuclear Facility

natrab
02-26-2012, 7:37 AM
I didn't have a good setup to do it myself, so I had a local smith do it. If I had the gun mat the guy had in the video and the right punches i would have tried it myself.

kb58
02-26-2012, 10:50 AM
I have a similar problem with a new HK45. I'm all over the target (random scatter it seems) yet with the HK Elite .45 I could drive tacks.

One bit of advice I got was to have someone else (not you) load a few snap caps into your mag, mixed in randomly. It'll vividly show if you're flinching and pulling your shots; I suspect that's what I'm doing. Another way is to borrow a laser to mount on your pistol, that'll show the same thing.

As of now I suspect it's me but I had someone else shoot it too and he had the same problem, so we'll see. Best of luck.

Fizz
02-26-2012, 11:05 AM
I really need to get this kit pronto! did you install it your self? Easy?

Sent from Los Alamos Nuclear Facility

I did it myself. First time I've ever done any work on a gun besides cleaning.

The hard part is the rear sight removal. I used a ~.5 in Delrin rod about 6 inches long with some electrical tape covering the sight with strikes applied to the base lip of the sight and the broad surface, driving the sight out the right side of the slide. The wood bench I had my vice on flexed too much, so I set the slide on top of on microfiber cloth on top of a thin rubber mat on the garage floor and beat the snot out of it. Sight came out slowly, it only moved when using about the effort you'd use attempting to drive a railway spike through a concrete slab. :laugh:

Other than that make sure you have the proper sized roll pin punches. The rest is pretty much take this out/ put this in. The trigger bar pin they weren't messing around, that's tight in there as well, but they preinstall the pin so it's just pounding and alignment. I suggest using the delrin rod to drive this in and then 'wadcutter' the business end to a trigger bar pin sized point when the pin is close to flush. Even my soft punches removed some finish from this pin.

pyromensch
02-26-2012, 8:26 PM
Start shooting closer you need practice it's not easy to shoot pistols consistently well most people really suck with a pistol.

I haven't heard of problems with the M&P .40 but I have heard of reports of really bad M&P 9mm I think people blamed the barrel twist. Some guy on M4Carbine.net had 2 9mm M&P's and one was shooting 2-3 MOA and the other was shooting 8-9 MOA if I recall testing was done on a bench with defensive ammo.

MOA? on a pistol 8-9 is fantastic

i have an M&P45c, grouping is fine, point of impact is 6" low at 15yds, with ball ammo, my M&P45, shoots a whole lot closer to my aiming point

Shenaniguns
02-26-2012, 8:54 PM
Might want to edit the MOA and correct it with inches, those guns in question are shooting between 3-8 inches at 25 yards which is about 12 to 36 MOA.
1 MOA is just over an inch at 100 yards and that is not the distance they are complaining about.

Fizz
03-05-2012, 4:32 PM
Update time.

I went yesterday. Groups are getting better. This was at 7 yards. Not sure how well put the rear sight back in there from the trigger kit or if I'm causing a new problem that results in tighter groups but pulling to the left.

The odd thing was at the end of the day (last 20 shots or so), the gun started shooting my desired POA/POI fairly consistently. :confused:

http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/8954/2012030418595927411.jpg

Though, I can't do that any faster than a slow fire. Anything faster than 1 shot every 3 seconds isn't that consistent. Half way between fast/slow is what the repair dots on the target are, lot of 'em were off target.

tbc
03-05-2012, 9:10 PM
OP. That is pretty damn good. :)

Fizz
03-05-2012, 9:33 PM
OP. That is pretty damn good. :)

Nope, must have ratty hole in the center. :laugh: