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View Full Version : Observation on hi cap mag laws.


saki302
02-20-2012, 1:01 AM
I understand the consensus on permanently modded high caps to 10 rounders being legal, however, I have made an observation.

1. parts kits of hi-caps are legal, disassembled. This is accepted.
2. permanent (riveted, glued) 10 round conversions are legal, this is also accepted.
3. non permanent 10 round conversions are accepted as being illegal.

Here's my observation- since disassembled hi-caps are legal, it doesn't make sense that a non-permanent 10 round conversion would be illegal since if disassembled, it reverts to a legal state (parts kit). Only the act of reassembling as a high cap would make an illegal item (reference of a real item: FN PS90 magazines all use the same bodies- the 10 rounders just have large plugs and base plate retainers, you can convert them into hi-caps with a simple base plate swap).

I tend to err on the side of caution, and would go with the permanent conversion if need be. But when you think about it, it's all so ridiculous, isn't it?

-Dave

ClarenceBoddicker
02-20-2012, 1:54 AM
Laws are not meant to be logical. They are meant to restrict & punish. Import & Manufacture are the key words.

Enjoy your 10 round freedom while it lasts. The ones like me who hoarded hi caps before 2000 get to own the evil mags. I'm sure at some point in the not too near future CA will have another magazine law like the UK did. The last mag law they had was to crimp the tubes of .22 LR pump or lever action rifles to only hold 1 round. Remember that CA does not have a 2A in the state constitution. The CA Legislature can pretty much pass any anti-gun law they want. How about a 3 round limit for shotguns, 5 round for rifles and something like 6 or 7 rounds for pistols? They can do buybacks or unpaid turn them in programs if they want to.

CaliforniaLiberal
02-20-2012, 5:38 AM
....... But when you think about it, it's all so ridiculous, isn't it?

-Dave


There is sooo much about gun law and California gun law especially that is "all so rediculous."

GlockBlocker
02-20-2012, 10:17 AM
I think you're referring to "standard capacity" magazines too since a lot of standard magazine capacities are over the CA 10 round restriction as well.

ccmc
02-20-2012, 11:14 AM
I think you're referring to "standard capacity" magazines too since a lot of standard magazine capacities are over the CA 10 round restriction as well.

That's a good point, although I was chastised by someone here for using that term. When I hear high cap I think of a 33 round mag for a 9mm Glock. I certainly don't think of a 15 round factory mag for a G19 as anything other than standard capacity.

brassburnz
02-20-2012, 12:12 PM
I have several firearms I purchased before the +10 round ban went into effect. It seems odd that the magazines for these firearms are legal, but if I purchased or assembled another identical magazine today, I would be breaking the law. You are right Dave, it doesn't make any sense.

Here's another quirk to the +10 magazine ban. I have a Smith & Wesson Model 469 I purchased before the ban. It uses a 12 round magazine that also fits the Marlin Camp 9 carbine. If I bought a Marlin Camp 9 today, that magazine would be legal to use in the Smith, but what about the Marlin? Same magazine, but for use in a different firearm.

I'm so glad the politicians thought this out so well! :facepalm:

Here are two more examples of politicians at work.

ospNRk2uM3U

BRQqieimwLQ

A-J
02-20-2012, 2:18 PM
BRQqieimwLQ

Incendiary device = heat seeking device? I bet she thinks 2+2=22

CSACANNONEER
02-20-2012, 2:22 PM
It is not illegal to covert a legally owned +10 round mag into a configuration where it temporarily holds 10 rounds or less. Then, later return it to its original state.

proclone1
02-20-2012, 2:37 PM
reference of a real item: FN PS90 magazines all use the same bodies- the 10 rounders just have large plugs and base plate retainers, you can convert them into hi-caps with a simple base plate swap).

If I go into a law-abiding CA gunshop and buy a CA-legal AR15, the included magazine is either a 10/10rd magazine (ie the body of the magazine is very short and can physically on ever hold 10rds no matter what spring/baseplate is installed) OR it comes with a 10/30rd magazine (30-rd standard capacity body that has a block or pin that prevents the follower from going down far enough to accept 11+rounds, and the baseplate/follower is PERMANENTLY epoxied and/or riveted so that you cannot "possibly" dissassemble the magazine without destroying part of it.

Are you saying that if I go into that same gunstore and instead buy a CA-legal PS90 with maglock and 10rd magazines, the factory-magazines hold 10rds only through a plug & base plate retainer, and that they are not epoxy/riveted by the gunshop?

So for those people that say that any 10/30rd mag is ILLEGAL if you can with your hands, dissassemble the magazine and swap out parts to make it 30/30, that the FN factory is supplying CA-illegal magazines to be sold with their otherwise CA-legal rifle?

repubconserv
02-20-2012, 2:53 PM
If I go into a law-abiding CA gunshop and buy a CA-legal AR15, the included magazine is either a 10/10rd magazine (ie the body of the magazine is very short and can physically on ever hold 10rds no matter what spring/baseplate is installed) OR it comes with a 10/30rd magazine (30-rd standard capacity body that has a block or pin that prevents the follower from going down far enough to accept 11+rounds, and the baseplate/follower is PERMANENTLY epoxied and/or riveted so that you cannot "possibly" dissassemble the magazine without destroying part of it.

Are you saying that if I go into that same gunstore and instead buy a CA-legal PS90 with maglock and 10rd magazines, the factory-magazines hold 10rds only through a plug & base plate retainer, and that they are not epoxy/riveted by the gunshop?

So for those people that say that any 10/30rd mag is ILLEGAL if you can with your hands, dissassemble the magazine and swap out parts to make it 30/30, that the FN factory is supplying CA-illegal magazines to be sold with their otherwise CA-legal rifle?

There is such a thing as mag parts kits... which are legal.... people use them to fix their legal hi caps, or to make their own 10/30s 10/20s etc... If there are part kits for the FN mags you can make your own

do not take what gun stores do as legal advice. Just because they permanently seal those magazines does not necessarily mean that you would need to permanently seal your 10/30s that you make out of parts kits.

Example: A law abiding Ca gun shop can put a maglock on a standard mini-14... That does not mean they (or you) have to put it on.

Look towards the law for legal advice... not gun shops

Librarian
02-20-2012, 2:59 PM
So for those people that say that any 10/30rd mag is ILLEGAL if you can with your hands, dissassemble the magazine and swap out parts to make it 30/30, that the FN factory is supplying CA-illegal magazines to be sold with their otherwise CA-legal rifle?

Some people are saying that's illegal.

Others are saying 'there's no definition for 'permanent', so there may be some risk involved'.

BlackLoTuS
02-20-2012, 3:01 PM
although many would choose to be on the safe side and permanently alter their mags, i think it way overkill.
You would be on sound legal ground using 10/20 or 10/30 p-mags with the restricting floor-plate because in order to get it to accept 10+ rounds you would HAVE to disassemble and then reassemble the mag (even if it just means removing a part). and THAT person would be breaking the law. if the DA tried to prove that a hi-cap was owned they would have to actually manufacture it.
once again, possession isn't breaking the law, import/manufacture is so if you have a 10/20 or 10/30 THEY would have to manufacture it into a standard cap mag.

PhantomII
02-20-2012, 3:50 PM
OK, I'm not a lawyer and I haven't stayed in a Holiday Inn Express in nearly a year but this is how I look at it.

A 10 round magazine is a magazine that holds only 10 rounds and cannot be made to hold any more without disassembly and adding, removing or changing parts. In other words, it must be modified to make it a high capacity magazine.
A blocked 10/20 magazine is permanently, but not irreversibly modified. The law does not say a magazine has to be irreversibly modified, just permanently.

A magazine modified in such a way that it holds 10 rounds, but can be adjusted or converted to hold more by moving a lever, turning a knob, or some similar external device would not be a permanently limited 10 round magazine and therefore would not fit the permanence requirement.

bwiese
02-20-2012, 5:10 PM
I have a Smith & Wesson Model 469 I purchased before the ban. It uses a 12 round magazine that also fits the Marlin Camp 9 carbine.

If I bought a Marlin Camp 9 today, that magazine would be legal to use in the Smith, but what about the Marlin?


Entirely legal.

Same magazine, but for use in a different firearm. Yup. CA mag law is generally separate from gun law (except over-10rd mags affixed/installed as fixed-mag semiauto centerfire rifles and semiauto pistols).

chris
02-20-2012, 6:05 PM
Laws are not meant to be logical. They are meant to restrict & punish. Import & Manufacture are the key words.

Enjoy your 10 round freedom while it lasts. The ones like me who hoarded hi caps before 2000 get to own the evil mags. I'm sure at some point in the not too near future CA will have another magazine law like the UK did. The last mag law they had was to crimp the tubes of .22 LR pump or lever action rifles to only hold 1 round. Remember that CA does not have a 2A in the state constitution. The CA Legislature can pretty much pass any anti-gun law they want. How about a 3 round limit for shotguns, 5 round for rifles and something like 6 or 7 rounds for pistols? They can do buybacks or unpaid turn them in programs if they want to.

have you forgotten DC vs Heller, McDonald vs. Chicago? both cases ruled in favor of 2A and california is in for a wake up call because of those two landmark cases. the right people will be there if this state attempts such action.

97F1504RAD
02-20-2012, 6:11 PM
But when you think about it, it's all so ridiculous, isn't it?

-Dave

This applies to most of the laws and regulations within the State of California, not just this topic.

saki302
02-20-2012, 10:21 PM
Believe me, I have no shortage of hi-caps (standards, I mean) I bought in the 90s. I even bought mags for guns I don't own (an MP40 mag came in a box I picked up in the mid 90s at a gun show. Still don't know wtf I'll ever do with it- sell it to a class III owner out of state? no one made a legal semi I don't think..).

I was just thinking about the way the law was worded..

As for the FN mags- I have one old 10 rounder that had a bonded base plate, but all the ATI and AR57 10rd mags I've seen are not glued- the base plate pops right off. And the only difference in these mags is that the 10 rounder has an integrated spacer as part of the magazine base plate locking tab. EVERYTHING else is identical- the 10 rounders even have the 50rd capacity markings on the bodies.
I was told FN no longer glues their bases on either. (Mine may have been glued my a dealer a long time ago, who knows).

Just got me thinking if a PMAG with a capacity reducing spacer would be illegal if not glued/riveted shut- it would still transform into a legal form first if disassembled (parts kit).

(and yes, legal hi-cap owners, you can make old 30 round springs work in PMAGs if only temporarily, if you need to establish a part continiuty from an old hi-cap to a PMAG. Pliers are required!).

-Dave

ivsamhell
02-20-2012, 10:47 PM
I understand the consensus on permanently modded high caps to 10 rounders being legal, however, I have made an observation.

1. parts kits of hi-caps are legal, disassembled. This is accepted.
2. permanent (riveted, glued) 10 round conversions are legal, this is also accepted.
3. non permanent 10 round conversions are accepted as being illegal.

Here's my observation- since disassembled hi-caps are legal, it doesn't make sense that a non-permanent 10 round conversion would be illegal since if disassembled, it reverts to a legal state (parts kit). Only the act of reassembling as a high cap would make an illegal item (reference of a real item: FN PS90 magazines all use the same bodies- the 10 rounders just have large plugs and base plate retainers, you can convert them into hi-caps with a simple base plate swap).

I tend to err on the side of caution, and would go with the permanent conversion if need be. But when you think about it, it's all so ridiculous, isn't it?

-Dave

Its been hashed out at least a couple times. I agree with your observation, and I agree its better to err on the side of caution.

zum
02-20-2012, 10:55 PM
SB23 Final comments from the Department of Justice. found on the California Attorney Generals Official website.

"permanently altered" in the law, doesn't mean irreversible. It means its not supposed to be reversed or you have committed a crime. The fact you can do it is not illegal. PC12020(c)(25) and PC12276.1(d)(2) are exceptions allowing a person to legally comply with the law.

i posted this in another thread and got no response ... but i also don't understand all the glue, rivets, and epoxy

btw the law was very well argued here on page 3 http://mobile.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=370903&page=3

saki302
02-21-2012, 3:41 AM
Thanks for the thread. Now I feel dizzy. :D


I'm just thinking for thinking's sake. I don't own many BB weapons (have a couple RAWs), but for the ones I do I prefer a short 10 round mag. Eliminates capacity beyond a doubt- and why waste the dead space.

-Dave