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Agent Akin
02-18-2012, 10:44 PM
Greetings all!

So for my next project, I'm thinking I want to get an AR pistol. Unfortunately, I know very little about this process, and I've heard it can be real tricky to do it legally...

So I tried to search for help, and as usual, a bazillion threads came back, none of which appeared to actually address my question, no matter how I tried to phrase it.

So... does anyone know of a thread that might help with this kind of project? From what I think, I need to get an 80% lower, take it to one of several friendly CalGunners who have the machinery needed to finish it, be sure to put a serial number and stuff on it, then somehow DROS it as a pistol, then add a lower with a short barrel on it.

Related question... I think having a buffer tube, even one covered with black foam, sticking out the back looks moronic. Are OA-93s available in CA? If I could just buy one of those, that'd make things much easier. Or, I guess I culd try to find an OA-93 upper, if they're available...

Thanks!

davek8s
02-19-2012, 5:45 AM
I don't about the uppers. But when you build an 80% lower for yourself, there is no need to DROS it. The way I understand it, if you're building the lower for yourself then you're good. If I'm wrong, someone will correct me.
There are some shops that sell pistol lowers. If you want to go that route.

morrcarr67
02-19-2012, 6:07 AM
I don't about the uppers. But when you build an 80% lower for yourself, there is no need to DROS it. The way I understand it, if you're building the lower for yourself then you're good. If I'm wrong, someone will correct me.
There are some shops that sell pistol lowers. If you want to go that route.

You're right. No need to register it in any way shape or form.

morrcarr67
02-19-2012, 6:18 AM
Greetings all!

So for my next project, I'm thinking I want to get an AR pistol. Unfortunately, I know very little about this process, and I've heard it can be real tricky to do it legally...

So I tried to search for help, and as usual, a bazillion threads came back, none of which appeared to actually address my question, no matter how I tried to phrase it.

So... does anyone know of a thread that might help with this kind of project? From what I think, I need to get an 80% lower, take it to one of several friendly CalGunners who have the machinery needed to finish it, be sure to put a serial number and stuff on it, then somehow DROS it as a pistol, then add a lower with a short barrel on it.

Related question... I think having a buffer tube, even one covered with black foam, sticking out the back looks moronic. Are OA-93s available in CA? If I could just buy one of those, that'd make things much easier. Or, I guess I culd try to find an OA-93 upper, if they're available...

Thanks!

There are many threads on this forum that discuss building AR-15 style pistols. Keep looking.

Here is a little bit more info for you.

If building from a 80% YOU must do the work. you can not take it to some CalGunner to finish it for you.

You must first build it as a Single Shot Exempt Pistol. After that you may convert it to a Semi-Auto Pistol.

I don't know about the uppers either.

If you're not sure how to build your own you should think about buying a pistol already made. Talk to EBR in Newberry Park. You can find their contact info in the Single Shot Exempt Sticky that is at the top of this forum.

You should also check out Robinson Arms out of UT. They make a pretty cool AR style pistol without a tube and will build it as a SSE pistol right from the factory for you.

http://xcr.robarm.com/xcrl.php

Agent Akin
02-19-2012, 7:32 AM
If building from a 80% YOU must do the work. you can not take it to some CalGunner to finish it for you.

From what I understand, you lock it into his CNC machine and push the GO button... so you're actually doing whatever "work" there is...

You must first build it as a Single Shot Exempt Pistol. After that you may convert it to a Semi-Auto Pistol.

??? huh. I've never heard of this. If you buy an AR pistol from one of the stores or gunshow booths I've seen here in CA, unless I'm mistaken, it comes as a semi-auto pistol. Why would you want to make a single shot version?

morrcarr67
02-19-2012, 7:55 AM
From what I understand, you lock it into his CNC machine and push the GO button... so you're actually doing whatever "work" there is...



??? huh. I've never heard of this. If you buy an AR pistol from one of the stores or gunshow booths I've seen here in CA, unless I'm mistaken, it comes as a semi-auto pistol. Why would you want to make a single shot version?

True on the work part but that is not what you said in your OP.

No. They are not on the roster and must be sold in Single Shot Exempt form.

Also, it is against CA law for anyone to manufacture an un-safe (handgun not on the roster) handgun in CA.

Agent Akin
02-19-2012, 7:57 AM
No. They are not on the roster and must be sold in Single Shot Exempt form.

Also, it is against CA law for anyone to manufacture an un-safe (handgun not on the roster) handgun in CA.

huh... next time I'm at a gun show, I'll have to pay more attention to the AR pistols, then.

So, are the tales of making an 80% lower into an AR pistol BS then?

morrcarr67
02-19-2012, 8:03 AM
huh... next time I'm at a gun show, I'll have to pay more attention to the AR pistols, then.

So, are the tales of making an 80% lower into an AR pistol BS then?

No. That is how many are built. There are some people that may not build as a SSE pistol first and convert but that is not the legal way to do it.

Building as a SSE pistol is very easy for the AR platform.

You machine your 80% lower to complete it.

You install your LPK with a MAG LOCK and buffer tube.

You attach your pistol upper.

Then you install your magazine that has been blocked to hold 0 (zero) rounds.

You have just built a Single Shot Exempt AR Style pistol.

To convert it to semi-auto use a tool to remove the 0 round magazine and replace it with a 10 round magazine and you now have a Semi-Auto AR Style Pistol.

Agent Akin
02-19-2012, 8:16 AM
No. That is how many are built. There are some people that may not build as a SSE pistol first and convert but that is not the legal way to do it.

Building as a SSE pistol is very easy for the AR platform.

You machine your 80% lower to complete it.

You install your LPK with a MAG LOCK and buffer tube.

You attach your pistol upper.

Then you install your magazine that has been blocked to hold 0 (zero) rounds.

You have just built a Single Shot Exempt AR Style pistol.

To convert it to semi-auto use a tool to remove the 0 round magazine and replace it with a 10 round magazine and you now have a Semi-Auto AR Style Pistol.

Okay, I believe that is basically how it was described. I may not have explained what I was trying to say very well... "Listen to what I mean, not what I say!!!" :-D

It was also explained to me that not putting a model and serial number on it and having it registered as a handgun was a very bad idea, on the off chance that it ever comes to the notice of law enforcement, like during a raid on a shooting range or something. Any thoughts on that kind of thing?

Agent Akin
02-19-2012, 8:21 AM
Though, the more I think about this, the more I think I want an OA-93. Is there any way to get one in CA? What about something ridiculous like giving my buddy in Portland a bunch of money and having him buy one, then going up there and converting it into a single-shot pistol via bullet-button and zero-round magazine, then buying it from him and having it shipped to a local FFL for the final transfer to me?

morrcarr67
02-19-2012, 9:51 AM
Okay, I believe that is basically how it was described. I may not have explained what I was trying to say very well... "Listen to what I mean, not what I say!!!" :-D

It was also explained to me that not putting a model and serial number on it and having it registered as a handgun was a very bad idea, on the off chance that it ever comes to the notice of law enforcement, like during a raid on a shooting range or something. Any thoughts on that kind of thing?

Different people feel different ways about that.

My opinion is that it couldn't hurt to do a voluntary registration on a self built pistol though none is needed.

morrcarr67
02-19-2012, 9:55 AM
Though, the more I think about this, the more I think I want an OA-93. Is there any way to get one in CA? What about something ridiculous like giving my buddy in Portland a bunch of money and having him buy one, then going up there and converting it into a single-shot pistol via bullet-button and zero-round magazine, then buying it from him and having it shipped to a local FFL for the final transfer to me?

I would try to find a dealer willing to install a mag-lock and ship them a 0 round magazine and lock. Then all they have to do is ship to dealer in CA that will transfer SSE pistols.

Rocket Man
02-19-2012, 11:26 AM
Greetings all!

So for my next project, I'm thinking I want to get an AR pistol. Unfortunately, I know very little about this process, and I've heard it can be real tricky to do it legally...

So I tried to search for help, and as usual, a bazillion threads came back, none of which appeared to actually address my question, no matter how I tried to phrase it.

So... does anyone know of a thread that might help with this kind of project? From what I think, I need to get an 80% lower, take it to one of several friendly CalGunners who have the machinery needed to finish it, be sure to put a serial number and stuff on it, then somehow DROS it as a pistol, then add a lower with a short barrel on it.

Related question... I think having a buffer tube, even one covered with black foam, sticking out the back looks moronic. Are OA-93s available in CA? If I could just buy one of those, that'd make things much easier. Or, I guess I culd try to find an OA-93 upper, if they're available...

Thanks!

A few select shops will sell you just a completed lower, they put their upper on it and a 0 round sled, after the sale you give them back the upper & sled, it's a great way to go for these reasons;

1. if money is tight you can buy piece by piece.
2. you get it registered in your name, all legit with dross papers, (not that I feel we should have to) but if your ever hassled the serial #'s match your name and you can sell it later with no probs.
3. you can build it the way you want not the way someone else thinks it should be.

your comment about the buffer tube looking moronic;
the buffer tube gives you three points of contact for a stable shooting platform, your week hand up front, your trigger hand & your cheek weld. Shooting this way is very accurate, much more accurate than with out the buffer tube cheek weld. Think of shooting pistols vs rifles, the buffer tube kinda acks like a stock some what helping you steady your aim. YMMV

Agent Akin
02-19-2012, 5:49 PM
A few select shops will sell you just a completed lower, they put their upper on it and a 0 round sled, after the sale you give them back the upper & sled, it's a great way to go for these reasons

Are any of these shops located in Socal, preferably around Los Angeles? Any and all options are on the table at this point... it'll take several months worth of saving up before I can get serious about this...

ke6guj
02-19-2012, 6:12 PM
Are any of these shops located in Socal, preferably around Los Angeles? Any and all options are on the table at this point... it'll take several months worth of saving up before I can get serious about this...

here you go, http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=463278

Agent Akin
02-23-2012, 3:20 AM
Okay, so I have an excellent option if I decide to get a "normal" AR pistol. Frankly, that's most likely what I'll do.

However, it looks like OA is still making the OA-93, and they are located about fifteen minutes from my best friend who now lives in Portland.

For the sake of argument, let's say I decided to go for the OA-93. If I were to give my buddy the money to buy one in his name, then install a bullet button and a zero-round magazine (think they're called "sleds"?), then buy it from him and have it shipped to a local FFL here in CA, and then once all the paperwork is over with and it's in my hands, I used a tool to remove the sled and installed a ten-round magazine, would that be legal?

Based on my understanding of things, I believe it would be, but please, I invite comments from those who know more than I (basically everyone, on this topic!)

Of course it'd be annoyingly complicated and extra-expensive... would it be legal if I simply handed my buddy the cash to purchase it with, and then he simply gave it to me? I guess I'd have to pay tax when it was shipped to a CA FFL... would that be on what my buddy paid for it, or on what I "paid" him?

Once I had it, while shooting at the range, is it okay to use a tool to remove the ten-round magazine and replace it with another, or are they so crazy about AR pistols that a truely locked-in magazine should be used?

Thanks!

Quiet
02-23-2012, 3:36 AM
For the sake of argument, let's say I decided to go for the OA-93. If I were to give my buddy the money to buy one in his name, then install a bullet button and a zero-round magazine (think they're called "sleds"?), then buy it from him and have it shipped to a local FFL here in CA, and then once all the paperwork is over with and it's in my hands, I used a tool to remove the sled and installed a ten-round magazine, would that be legal?

Based on my understanding of things, I believe it would be, but please, I invite comments from those who know more than I (basically everyone, on this topic!)

Of course it'd be annoyingly complicated and extra-expensive... would it be legal if I simply handed my buddy the cash to purchase it with, and then he simply gave it to me? I guess I'd have to pay tax when it was shipped to a CA FFL... would that be on what my buddy paid for it, or on what I "paid" him?

Once I had it, while shooting at the range, is it okay to use a tool to remove the ten-round magazine and replace it with another, or are they so crazy about AR pistols that a truely locked-in magazine should be used?

Thanks!

Yes, your friend can buy the OA-93 and install a maglock & 0 round magazine, then ship it to your CA FFL dealer. Where you will 4473/DROS it as a single-shot pistol. After the 10 day wait, you can legally remove the 0 round magazine and use 10 round or less magazines in it.

Your friend will need to initially buy it with his money.
Per the BATFE, you giving money to another person to buy you a firearm for you, would be considered a "straw purchase" and not be legal.
To be legal, he would buy the firearm with his own money and then you buy it off him.

Agent Akin
02-23-2012, 4:03 AM
Your friend will need to initially buy it with his money.
Per the BATFE, you giving money to another person to buy you a firearm for you, would be considered a "straw purchase" and not be legal.
To be legal, he would buy the firearm with his own money and then you buy it off him.

Hmmm... I suppose that makes sense, actually. Though, would it matter since it'd be fully and legally registered to him initially, and then legally transferred to me? I always thought straw purchases basically involved one person buying a gun and then simply handing it to another, without transferring it...

It's a problem with the plan if there's no work-around, as my buddy's not likely to have a spare grand and change to toss around anytime soon... although depending on how long the waiting period is up there, it might be doable since I'd buy it from him as soon as he had possesion. I'll have to look into that...

If I decide to pursue the OA, I guess I'll have to contact them and see if they'd be willing to make me a CA legal version that I could simply buy and have shipped here. That'd certainly make things easier...

Quiet
02-23-2012, 4:35 AM
Hmmm... I suppose that makes sense, actually. Though, would it matter since it'd be fully and legally registered to him initially, and then legally transferred to me? I always thought straw purchases basically involved one person buying a gun and then simply handing it to another, without transferring it...
Well, going off the examples on the ATF Form 4473 for question 11.a. Giving money to another person to buy a firearm for you is not legal.


ATF Form 4473 revised 08-2008 (http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-4473-1.pdf)
Question 11.a. Actual Transferee/Buyer:
For purposes of this form, you are the actual transferee/buyer if you are purchasing the firearm for yourself or otherwise acquiring the firearm for yourself (e.g., redeeming the firearm from pawn/retrieving it from consignment, firearm raffle winner). You are also the actual transferee/buyer if you are legitimately purchasing the firearm as a gift for a third party.

ACTUAL TRANSFEREE/BUYER EXAMPLES:
Mr. Smith asks Mr. Jones to purchase a firearm for Mr. Smith. Mr. Smith gives Mr. Jones the money for the firearm. Mr. Jones is NOT THE ACTUAL TRANSFEREE/BUYER of the firearm and must answer "NO" to question 11.a. The licensee may not transfer the firearm to Mr. Jones.

However, if Mr. Brown goes to buy a firearm with his own money to give to Mr. Black as a present, Mr. Brown is the actual transferee/buyer of the firearm and should answer "YES" to question 11.a. However, you may not transfer a firearm to any person you know or have reasonable cause to believe is prohibited under 18 U.S.c. 922(g), (n), or (x).

Please note: EXCEPTION: If you are picking up a repaired firearm(s) for another person. you are not required to answer 11.a. and may proceed to question 11.b.

Agent Akin
02-23-2012, 4:46 AM
Well, going off the examples on the ATF Form 4473 for question 11.a. Giving money to another person to buy a firearm for you is not legal.

Huh. Though, it seems that if my buddy bought it, and once he walks out of the store I pay him in advance for the pistol he'll ship to my FFL once he takes possesion, and he then rushes to the bank to desposit it, that would allow this to proceed... he'll have already bought the firearm before I hand him any money...

morrcarr67
02-23-2012, 6:47 AM
Huh. Though, it seems that if my buddy bought it, and once he walks out of the store I pay him in advance for the pistol he'll ship to my FFL once he takes possesion, and he then rushes to the bank to desposit it, that would allow this to proceed... he'll have already bought the firearm before I hand him any money...

Right.

You know if he has a CC he could use that to buy it. That way it would give him a couple of weeks for your money to get to him and clear his bank so he could pay his CC.

Agent Akin
02-23-2012, 9:55 PM
No credit cards, he was downsized and hasn't been able to find work for a while now and his old creditors aren't happy with him as it is...

morrcarr67
02-24-2012, 6:14 AM
No credit cards, he was downsized and hasn't been able to find work for a while now and his old creditors aren't happy with him as it is...

Sorry to hear that.

thmpr
02-25-2012, 1:15 PM
A range master informed a shooter today that placing your cheek on the buffer tube while firing is breaking the law. His position is "since it is an AR pistol, it must be fired as a pistol".

Is this correct? I could not find any information that support the range master's position.

ChaneRZ
02-25-2012, 1:48 PM
Lol. That's is pure BS! There is no law how you shoot a firearm. I think the AR pistol needs to be shot with forward thumb grip LOL

trendar5
02-25-2012, 3:08 PM
A range master informed a shooter today that placing your cheek on the buffer tube while firing is breaking the law. His position is "since it is an AR pistol, it must be fired as a pistol".

Is this correct? I could not find any information that support the range master's position.

Where is this clown of *** located? Somebody needs to put him in check.

thmpr
02-25-2012, 3:27 PM
Metcalf --> please beware of shooting your AR pistol there. They will kick you out if told more than once.

SDM44
02-25-2012, 8:46 PM
I personally went the 80% route. I mainly did this because....

1) It was cheaper than buying & DROS'ing an AR pistol (new or used)
2) It was a good learning experience when milling your own lower
3) It was fun milling and building your own AR lower
4) You don't have to register it, so the 'man' doesn't know you have it
5) I like the clean look of a blank lower with no markings on it (except for SAFE & FIRE)


If I really wanted to sell it later on, I'll then go through the work of having the lower laser etched with a serial and manufacture info onto it, and then DROS'ing it. But for my reasons above, I probably won't ever get rid of this. If I want to buy & sell AR's, then I'll get the lowers already complete & registered and go that route.

Quiet
02-25-2012, 11:31 PM
A range master informed a shooter today that placing your cheek on the buffer tube while firing is breaking the law. His position is "since it is an AR pistol, it must be fired as a pistol".

Is this correct? I could not find any information that support the range master's position.

Cheeking an AR pistol is legal.

Shouldering an AR pistol may not be legal due to CA's definition of a "rifle" & "SBR" [PC 17090 & 17170] and the fact that CA law allows a handgun to also be considered an "SBR" if it meets CA's definition of a SBR. [PC 16640(b)].

In order to avoid this issue, you should not install a longer (rifle/carbine) length buffer tube on the AR pistol.

From a distance and depending on the angle, cheeking an AR pistol may look like you are shouldering it. So, a range master may get upset about it.
It all depends on the range and the range master.

thmpr
02-26-2012, 8:49 AM
The shooter was only cheeking the AR pistol and not shouldering it.

Baconator
02-26-2012, 8:56 AM
I personally went the 80% route. I mainly did this because....

1) It was cheaper than buying & DROS'ing an AR pistol (new or used)
2) It was a good learning experience when milling your own lower
3) It was fun milling and building your own AR lower
4) You don't have to register it, so the 'man' doesn't know you have it
5) I like the clean look of a blank lower with no markings on it (except for SAFE & FIRE)


If I really wanted to sell it later on, I'll then go through the work of having the lower laser etched with a serial and manufacture info onto it, and then DROS'ing it. But for my reasons above, I probably won't ever get rid of this. If I want to buy & sell AR's, then I'll get the lowers already complete & registered and go that route.

Mine is cleaner than that, it doesn't even have those markings. Gotta be careful who I let touch it.

Rocket Man
02-26-2012, 9:53 AM
A range master informed a shooter today that placing your cheek on the buffer tube while firing is breaking the law. His position is "since it is an AR pistol, it must be fired as a pistol".

Is this correct? I could not find any information that support the range master's position.

no no he's doing it wrong, gotta hop up-n-down on one leg turn it all gangsta like & say bang bang in order to legally shoot an AR pistol, what a joke to tell some one how to "shoot" a gun because they think it's breaking a non law. :TFH:


Heck it's "safer" to cheek an AR pistol as you have more control over the firearm.



next time clean the range master with these;
http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu274/TheDParis/0224020742.jpg


Nobody gave me grief out at Circle S ranch on Saturday cheeking my AR pistol.
Let 3-4 other shooters try it & they liked shooting it, everyone cheeked it, one guy tried to shoulder it & I corrected him- not from "it looks like your breaking a law" but his teeth we're up on the charging handle. :p

thmpr
02-26-2012, 5:10 PM
no no he's doing it wrong, gotta hop up-n-down on one leg turn it all gangsta like & say bang bang in order to legally shoot an AR pistol, what a joke to tell some one how to "shoot" a gun because they think it's breaking a non law. :TFH:


Heck it's "safer" to cheek an AR pistol as you have more control over the firearm.


next time clean the range master with these;
http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu274/TheDParis/0224020742.jpg


Nobody gave me grief out at Circle S ranch on Saturday cheeking my AR pistol.
Let 3-4 other shooters try it & they liked shooting it, everyone cheeked it, one guy tried to shoulder it & I corrected him- not from "it looks like your breaking a law" but his teeth we're up on the charging handle. :p

+1 on this!

Agent Akin
03-06-2012, 7:52 AM
Mine is cleaner than that, it doesn't even have those markings. Gotta be careful who I let touch it.

Why is that? If I had an AR (of any variety) built up from an 80% lower, with no markings on it, would I be able to let my friend use it if we were up at the range together?

Agent Akin
03-06-2012, 7:56 AM
If anyone's curious, Olympic Arms is still making the OA-93, though they will not, under any circumstances, make a CA compliant model, even if I walked in, gave them the parts, and walked them through the procedure and then had it shipped to my FFL.

However... they sell OA-93 uppers... so I think I may have to talk with EBR when the time comes...