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View Full Version : Looking to Buy My Second AK 47


peppermintman
02-18-2012, 5:00 PM
Seen many AK's and didn't know Arsenal was made in Las Vegas Nevada and then there's AK's made in Tennessee. So are there any good Ak's left to buy? Looked at Atlantic and they say they have Russian made receivers. But, what other options are there and guys & gals what's left for me to look at?

Looking to Buy My Second AK 47

ECVMatt
02-18-2012, 5:10 PM
I would look at Arsenal and VEPR's. They are both top shelf guns. I am interested in getting a VEPR soon. Atlantic has them on sale. They are a bit more expensive, but a pretty beefy and seem to have the best accuracy for the AK series.

CSACANNONEER
02-18-2012, 5:20 PM
Arsenals are US made rifles manufactured from Saigas and have modified Russian made receivers just like Atlantic. That said, I don't support Arsenal due to their past anti Ca history and the way they would threaten to cut off their vendors if they were caught selling to California. It wasn't until they saw all the money they were loosing that they changed their policies. They used to be outright rude to anyone from Ca.

I say, build your own from real mil spec parts. If you don't want to do that, Atlantic would be a good vendor to get one from. But, almost any Saiga to AK47 conversion will not have a milspec barrel.

ElvenSoul
02-18-2012, 5:21 PM
Do yourself a favor and build your own!

NorCalK9.com
02-18-2012, 5:31 PM
I reccomend you building your own as well!

zfields
02-18-2012, 6:16 PM
Anything but arsenal.

Dhena81
02-18-2012, 6:42 PM
You won't find much love for Arsenal from the AK guys here they are good rifles though. I would trust what they say I think CSACANNONEER builds AK's if I'm not mistaken. I've been waiting for a So Cal build party for a couple of months I really want to build a 74 and a 5.56 that I can beat up.

atakacorp
02-18-2012, 6:48 PM
how much do you want to spend?
Vepr 7.62X39 the best quality Russian made AK here 699$
Saiga next it will coast you 600$ with conversion to have original IZMASH AK

http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/storeproduct967.aspx
http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/storeproduct1018.aspx

Aspec5vz
02-18-2012, 7:01 PM
Converting a Saiga is always an option. If you want something specific your best bet is building it yourself though.

ElvenSoul
02-18-2012, 7:05 PM
A friend just sent me this

http://www.blackforgeweapons.com/Vepr_Cobra_Conversion_p/veprcobrax39.htm

They look good, but damn that price

nicoroshi
02-18-2012, 7:36 PM
I get far more enjoyment, and have FULL control over the quality, and attention to detail when I build my own from military grade components that are found in the parts kits.
I also can build some things that you cannot find for sale.
I say, "Build it!"

HKMadness
02-18-2012, 9:09 PM
I'm building my next one, since I'd rather have two Ak's rather than two ar's first. Eventually, two or more of each would be sweet. Keep us posted with the gun porn on whatever you end up doing.

ZX-10R
02-19-2012, 9:35 AM
Lots of AK out there...Since you are in CA that choice is limited unless you have someone who can source you AK elsewhere...However, you have tax and fees that kill that as well.

CSACANNONEER
02-19-2012, 10:54 AM
how much do you want to spend?
Vepr 7.62X39 the best quality Russian made AK here 699$
Saiga next it will coast you 600$ with conversion to have original IZMASH AK

http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/storeproduct967.aspx
http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/storeproduct1018.aspx

You are not going to find a truely Russian made AK in the US for less than a few thousand dollars. They can't be imported and there are none on the new market. Any AK that claims to be Russian is a Saiga conversion.

atakacorp
02-19-2012, 2:02 PM
You are not going to find a truely Russian made AK in the US for less than a few thousand dollars. They can't be imported and there are none on the new market. Any AK that claims to be Russian is a Saiga conversion.

With all do respect sir, Saiga is AK, made in the same factory by the same people using same tools and materials so for people that are saying Saiga is a clone you are wrong:43:

Каталог продукции ОАО "Ижмаш"
http://talks.guns.ru/forummessage/294/855698.html

Have a good day

trashxtalkin
02-19-2012, 2:20 PM
build

FiveSeven
02-19-2012, 2:34 PM
With all do respect sir, Saiga is AK, made in the same factory by the same people using same tools and materials so for people that are saying Saiga is a clone you are wrong:43:

Каталог продукции ОАО "Ижмаш"
http://talks.guns.ru/forummessage/294/855698.html

Have a good day

+ 1

Receiver, barrel, bolt etc are all the same as it would be on a military spec rifle. Same metal, similarly built/assembled by the same factory using the same machines. It's actually RUSSIAN built AK.
EVERYTHING else on converted Saiga like FCG, PG/stock etc are miniscules things that do not make the rifle worse/better. It's like modifying a car, it is what it is and adding minor stuff to it does not change the car.

Converting Saiga is one of the best ways to get the best QUALITY AK anywhere. Yes, I'm even talking those rebuilt from kits from various U.S manufactures.
It can be done from very limited basic conversion to nearly copy of original military (minus SF). Your skill level would factor in how much you can convert/modify it.
The possibilities are also endless, just like AR in upgrading/modifying to something more up to date.

CSACANNONEER
02-19-2012, 3:03 PM
With all do respect sir, Saiga is AK, made in the same factory by the same people using same tools and materials so for people that are saying Saiga is a clone you are wrong:43:

Каталог продукции ОАО "Ижмаш"
http://talks.guns.ru/forummessage/294/855698.html

Have a good day

With all due respect, you are technically and legally incorrect. The ONLY Russian made AKs for sale in the US were imported before the ban on non sporting guns took affect. EVERY AK for sale in the US today is imported as a sproting rifle and then REMANUFACTURED in the US or built in the US from parts. So, it's safe to say that any AK one buys "new" today is a US made AK and not anything else. If it is, it's illegal in the US.

+ 1

Receiver, barrel, bolt etc are all the same as it would be on a military spec rifle. Same metal, similarly built/assembled by the same factory using the same machines. It's actually RUSSIAN built AK.
EVERYTHING else on converted Saiga like FCG, PG/stock etc are miniscules things that do not make the rifle worse/better. It's like modifying a car, it is what it is and adding minor stuff to it does not change the car.

Converting Saiga is one of the best ways to get the best QUALITY AK anywhere. Yes, I'm even talking those rebuilt from kits from various U.S manufactures.
It can be done from very limited basic conversion to nearly copy of original military (minus SF). Your skill level would factor in how much you can convert/modify it.
The possibilities are also endless, just like AR in upgrading/modifying to something more up to date.

OK, Saigas are NOT AKs. They are Saigas. Guess what, the receivers are not the same. There are holes stamped in different places for different furniture. Many Saiga conversions (the better ones) end up having the original Saiga holes welded up and new holes drilled. The FCG is completely different by design. The barrels are NOT mil spec by design. The front trunion is not mil spec by design. The gas tube is different by design. The other "little things" you speak of make all the difference in the world to someone who knows AKs and is a purist. Now, if you want a Kyber Pass AK looking rifle, a cheap Saiga conversion will do.

Yes, I do own a Saiga and "a few AKs" and I have been around "a few" Saiga conversions and "a few" home built AKs using mil surplus parts kits. So, while I may not have much in the way of internet time researching advertisements of Saiga conversions, I have a little hands on experience in the field.

Anyone who thinks a Saiga conversion is truely a Russian made AK is mistaken and obviously easily swayed by advertising hype.

.

atakacorp
02-19-2012, 3:21 PM
Bla,bla,bla you are taking like a interior designer, not the right holes and wrong looks , how you can be purist with AK ,its like an lego you slap different ak/saiga parts together and it will work like a charm, I say Galil is AK and I am not internet researcher.IDF, 12 battalion, 1st brigade, 1983-86 and some:43:

S470FM
02-19-2012, 3:35 PM
Arsenal AKs are GTG. I have an SGL 33 with a chrome lined muzzle device, Tapco G2 single hook trigger, got rid of Arsenal's BB and replaced it with a Solar Tactical BB and added a Bulgy folding stock--length of pull is awesome now and the rifle looks and feels great. I would recommend an Arsenal.

Mamluke
02-19-2012, 3:59 PM
Build one from a kit, that was at one point a full military rifle!
The problem with getting a Saiga sporting rifle, and then converting it, is the resale value takes a nose dive! But GTG if you plan on having it for good!

You can also get one fully built from a kit, such as Polish, Yugo, Bulgy or a Romanian G kit. Century Arms Polish UF (the one that I have and love) or a kit built by Waffenwerks or InterArms company.

BTW, you never mentioned which AK you already have?! Since you said you're looking for your second!

If you want something unique, look possibly into these:

http://www.tworiversarms.com/images/builds/ProtoTabuk2.JPG

http://tworiversarms.com/images/TabukFSNo1c.JPG

By Two Rivers Arms Company (the two rivers being the Tigris & Euphrates)
http://www.tworiversarms.com/Tabuk.htm

Забудьте, что ружье Сайга спортивных, так как он не имеет характера по сравнению с реальной боевой винтовки АК теперь в виде комплекта!

...... ;)

......

FiveSeven
02-19-2012, 4:07 PM
What is this, round 4, 5 now?


OK, Saigas are NOT AKs. They are Saigas. Guess what, the receivers are not the same.
Receivers are made with the same sheet metal and pressed by the same machines so they are the same. Saiga is just a name for sales/profit sake.
Name does not change the stamped receiver from a civilian to a military, if few different holes and engraving a name does then it's certainly does not in my book.
There are holes stamped in different places for different furniture.
And? What does that have to do with anything, Change the furniture to Russian one if you like and plug those small insignificant holes. How do those holes have affect on anything if beyond ridicules. Bottom line it's still the same stamped receiver as any other stamped receiver leaving that factory.
Many Saiga conversions (the better ones) end up having the original Saiga holes welded up and new holes drilled.
Weld up or plugged up, again that does not make any difference. And drilling new ones is totally unnecessary as it does absolutely NOTHING for functionality of a perfectly good rifle.
The FCG is completely different by design.
I'm talking about converted rifle, FCG would be tossed out and it's NON issue as already mentioned.
The barrels are NOT mil spec by design.
Care to prove otherwise? It's 100% the same barrel are military AK barrel. By fitting civilian shroud over the barrel does not change the barrel material, chrome lining, rifling, etc etc.
The front trunnion is not mil spec by design.
For a folder it's not but for non, it's the same. We can't have proper folders here so it's a moot point.
Same rivets, same dimensions.
The gas tube is different by design.
Gas tube is the same, on older Saigas it lacks furniture retainer on the newer model it's there so it's the same but gas tube is irrelevant as you can get military one for $30+ directly from Russia/Ukraine and it will fit perfect if your such a purist. Again proving that ALL proper AK parts will fit inside Saiga thus it making it an AK.
The other "little things" you speak of make all the difference in the world to someone who knows AKs and is a purist. Now, if you want a Kyber Pass AK looking rifle, a cheap Saiga conversion will do.
What I speak of is the rifle itself. The MAJOR and IMPORTANT components are all there are made in the same factory that makes the best AK's. Everything else does not matter as it can be easily modified even with someone with limited gunsmith expertise. AND if you don't care for "cheap" conversions (I don't care for cheap also), then spend little bit more and you can have all those "little things" that will make even a purist happy
Yes, I do own a Saiga and "a few AKs" and I have been around "a few" Saiga conversions and "a few" home built AKs using mil surplus parts kits. So, while I may not have much in the way of internet time researching advertisements of Saiga conversions, I have a little hands on experience in the field.
Same here. But the difference is I'm more of a efficiency, simplicity, and superiority overrides unnecessary labor or time killing. It's best to tinker with already excellent product and make it better or one that suits you best then waste my time doing something from ground up for no good reason then say "hey I made it".
Like mentioned before, I'll leave all the major work to the people who been making them for the past 60 years.
Anyone who thinks a Saiga conversion is truely a Russian made AK is mistaken and obviously easily swayed by advertising hype. .
No hype, just some common sense, seeing things for what they really are and little bit of experience.
No, I would not buy converted Saiga, not only I don't trust other people converting it but I also don't wish to pay for their time and their parts.

CSACANNONEER
02-19-2012, 4:43 PM
Yea, I'll agree that a conversion starts with materials from Russia. But, how far does one care to go to claim that it was manufactured there. Obviously, a Saiga conversion is not manufactured in any country other than the USA. Otherwise, it would not be legal to import. Got it? How hard is it to understand that no matter where the parts came from, the rifle has to be manufatured in the USA? The Saiga barrel is not mil spec by design. The chamber is not even the same. That's proof that it is indeed different. Just because it started out using the same steel, does not make it the same. At some point in the machining process the factory intentionally changed it's manufacturing process for civilian models. So, how can you say it's the same? Also, some of the measurements of Saiga barrels have been reported to be different than mil issued one. Get a clue.

Again, I ask anyone who want's to call a Saiga "a Russian AK" to explain how any AK can be imported into the US. The fact is, that ALL AKs that have been on the market for the last couple decades are MANUFACTURED in the USA. Just because a piece of sheet metal was imported into the USA and remanufactured into a different rifle does not mean that it is still an imported receiver. It is not.

FiveSeven
02-19-2012, 5:02 PM
Yea, I'll agree that a conversion starts with materials from Russia. But, how far does one care to go to claim that it was manufactured there. Obviously, a Saiga conversion is not manufactured in any country other than the USA. Otherwise, it would not be legal to import. Got it? How hard is it to understand that no matter where the parts came from, the rifle has to be manufatured in the USA? The Saiga barrel is not mil spec by design. The chamber is not even the same. That's proof that it is indeed different. Just because it started out using the same steel, does not make it the same. At some point in the machining process the factory intentionally changed it's manufacturing process for civilian models. So, how can you say it's the same? Also, some of the measurements of Saiga barrels have been reported to be different than mil issued one. Get a clue.

Again, I ask anyone who want's to call a Saiga "a Russian AK" to explain how any AK can be imported into the US. The fact is, that ALL AKs that have been on the market for the last couple decades are MANUFACTURED in the USA. Just because a piece of sheet metal was imported into the USA and remanufactured into a different rifle does not mean that it is still an imported receiver. It is not.

Conversion does not change the barrel and receiver. They still are the same the day they left the factory. When I convert I don't re-manufacture the rifle, I just replace few things. There's no need for me to re-manufacture something that's already been manufactured.
Barrel is the same length and by milling an identification imprint mark in the chamber does not change the chamber itself. It still contains and fires the cartridge.

Yah, I get it alright. I know about Fed laws and I do know what's legal or how to make something legal by replacing a few parts but all that does not change the original design and formula.

It operates the same as any AK
It's compatible with all AK parts.
It's made by AK factory using same material, machines, dimensions etc etc.

Bottom line is, Saiga is an AK from ground up and if you say otherwise then I'm done disusing this any further as you are oblivious to obvious.

CSACANNONEER
02-19-2012, 5:24 PM
Bottom line is, Saiga is an AK from ground up and if you say otherwise then I'm done disusing this any further as you are oblivious to obvious.

A Saiga can be remanufactured into a good working AK style rifle. I don't understand why you are oblivious to the simple fact that a Saiga was not originally manufactured as an AK at the factory? That is obvious otherwise, it would not have to be "converted" in the first place.

FiveSeven
02-19-2012, 6:06 PM
A Saiga can be remanufactured into a good working AK style rifle. I don't understand why you are oblivious to the simple fact that a Saiga was not originally manufactured as an AK at the factory? That is obvious otherwise, it would not have to be "converted" in the first place.

Lets see.... I already pointed out in previous post.
It functions the same as any AK, it takes AK parts, its made to AK specs, it's made at the AK factory, it's made with the same dimensions as military AK so Saiga is an AK.
If I can take AK bolt, FCG, Gas tube, furniture, sights, op spring, top cover, muzzle brake etc etc and be able to slap on to Saiga with little to no modification then in my book its an AK just like any other AK made elsewhere only better.
It's made to look like that way for EXPORT and civilian compliance. Otherwise it would not be allowed to be imported or sale. It's called a loophole in a sense (brilliant one at that).

atakacorp
02-19-2012, 7:29 PM
Lets see.... I already pointed out in previous post.
It functions the same as any AK, it takes AK parts, its made to AK specs, it's made at the AK factory, it's made with the same dimensions as military AK so Saiga is an AK.
If I can take AK bolt, FCG, Gas tube, furniture, sights, op spring, top cover, muzzle brake etc etc and be able to slap on to Saiga with little to no modification then in my book its an AK just like any other AK made elsewhere only better.
It's made to look like that way for EXPORT and civilian compliance. Otherwise it would not be allowed to be imported or sale. It's called a loophole in a sense (brilliant one at that).

+1 Amen

Mamluke
02-19-2012, 7:32 PM
The Saiga conversion business is taking off ...

http://images.elephantjournal.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/4-dr-frankenstein.jpg .... http://cf.drafthouse.com/_uploads/galleries/4464/young_frankenstein1.jpeg

.... its ALIVE!!!!! ... its ALIVE!!!! ... its a 'real' AK commiversion from a Saiga!!!

http://www.hostingwiththemostzing.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/dr-frank.jpg


........


........ :D

vintagedude88
02-19-2012, 7:37 PM
I doubt the Russians would go to the expense to have completely different tooling and materials just to make a civilian rifle vs. the mil-spec rifles they make all day long. Its more practical sense that they would just tweak the mil-spec rifle just enough so that it would be legal for import. Thats just basic common sense.

atakacorp
02-19-2012, 7:41 PM
Hey, Mamluke, you missed a good day at the range ,PSLs,Aks,Saigas:43:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqKbrXAC7ws&feature=youtu.be

PS
Com’on we all like the same reliable, easy, low maintenance rifle, that wont let us down, eat everything we give her and never choke ,and if something bad will happened , we will have warm feeling inside knowing that, she is ready if we are:)

zfields
02-19-2012, 7:45 PM
I doubt the Russians would go to the expense to have completely different tooling and materials just to make a civilian rifle vs. the mil-spec rifles they make all day long. Its more practical sense that they would just tweak the mil-spec rifle just enough so that it would be legal for import. Thats just basic common sense.

some of the Saiga barrels use the stepped chamber, that is required for civilians to own rifles in other countries.

MOST the ones imported do not have the stepped chamber.

Mamluke
02-19-2012, 7:47 PM
Hey, Mamluke, you missed a good day at the range ,PSLs,Aks,Saigas:43:

AqKbrXAC7ws


WTF ... did you run out of hogs lol ?!

.... looks like good times there ;)

............

atakacorp
02-19-2012, 7:55 PM
WTF ... did you run out of hogs lol ?!

.... looks like good times there ;)

............

LOL. Taking her hunting next week
this is 50 yards
http://i620.photobucket.com/albums/tt287/atakacorp/Saiga12/20120219_104802.jpg

NorCalK9.com
02-19-2012, 8:43 PM
I own a "few saigas" myself..
With that said I doubt very much the russians put as much work into a sporter rifle as they do for there military!
And the barrels on my saigas are much different than those of my other commie ak's...
Building is unnecessary work?
It costs me about the same price to build one as it does to buy, difference is I know I take the time to make sure everything is done RIGHT!
And last but not least, parts dont matter than my chevy 2500hd duramax is no better than an s10 or ford ranger... Parts do matter!

atakacorp
02-19-2012, 9:22 PM
My dear friends, ak enthusiasts. do you know that IZMASH is on the edge of bankruptcy, that workers pay is late , some times for month , you really think they have a different facilities and material, parts and assembly for aks and saigas?, I go to the IZMASH forums and read what workers are saying about s@##t, that going at the plant.

dr_communist
02-19-2012, 9:29 PM
the reason i decided to convert a saiga is because for one, i dont have the tools to build my own ak from the ground up, also the saiga has "made in russia" written on the side with the izhmash logo's and symbols, as far as i am concerned i have a russian ak-47.

CSACANNONEER
02-20-2012, 5:41 AM
A Chevy truck with a 350 has 4 tires and an engine. It was built at the same plant as a Corvette with a 350. It has the same basic engine, 4 tires and runs the same way. Does that make a Chevy truck a Corvette? If Saigas used all the same milspec parts, there would be no need for bullet guides, the chambers would be identical, etc. Guess what, there are differences. Some differences, like the different chamber. have nothing to do with US import laws.

FiveSeven
02-20-2012, 6:20 AM
^

Bad example, compare apples to apples.
Izmash makes few other firearms besides AK types.
If Ford makes V8 Mustang and then makes a V6 models, does that make a V6 model not a Mustang?
Stripped Saiga is just that, a platform to make a "real" AK or something else you like, whatever floats your boat and at the end it's still an AK platform.
Bullet guide issue is for U.S export compliance and it's VERY easy to take care of.
Chamber is chamber. Marked/swelled cases do not do anything in terms of functionality or even accuracy and it's very easy to have machine rework those chambers after they already have been made, and yes, it's Russian Government policy, it does not affect me one way or the other.

Yes, parts matter and Tapco FCG is good quality parts with excellent trigger pull. Everything else is nonsense.

straykiller
02-20-2012, 7:51 AM
just build your own youll appreciate it more

atakacorp
02-20-2012, 8:29 AM
What happened to the guy who started this?:D I think you all scared him and he ‘ll buy AR now;)

NorCalK9.com
02-20-2012, 8:59 AM
How about this.....
Saigas and saiga conversions are good!
Wasr's are good!
IO casar SUXb@llz!
Building your own ak47/74 is a priceless experience/ and will work tremendously well for your lifetime!
Btw a v6 mustang is a great example of a saiga! A v6 mustang will NEVER be a v8!
I miss my mustang!

peppermintman
02-21-2012, 10:17 AM
Ok , I been doing a lot of thinking. I don't think I can build one and I don't want to spend the big big bucks too. Considering...

AK Rifle WA IZ32C

Poly furniture but think maybe it can be changed. Price seems fair but what about this Saiga conversion???

NorCalK9.com
02-21-2012, 11:45 AM
check these out!!!!