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Spawn
02-18-2012, 12:27 AM
I'm 21 and I just bought my first gun yesterday, a Glock 17, after months of researching, going to ranges, and shops. I just want to know if it is true that pushing the slide release lever causes indirect wearing of the slide, causing it one day to fail to lock.

jeffrice6
02-18-2012, 12:30 AM
If empty, not a great practice...

G60
02-18-2012, 12:36 AM
Releasing the slide using the slide release is fine. Most of the fastest shooters in the world use this method.

NiteQwill
02-18-2012, 12:41 AM
Gross motor techniques

JollyJuan
02-18-2012, 12:41 AM
Get some snapcaps, they are dummy rounds. You can use the slide release; that's what it's there for! :D

NewbieDave
02-18-2012, 12:42 AM
No, your slide is a different hardness then your slide-stop. The metal is so thin on the slide-stop, you will wear it out before your slide will have issue... and it's a cheap piece to replace.

But if you can help it, drop the slide by the sling-shot... fine motor skills goes out the door when stressed. So attempting to drop that stop with your thumb is hard to do when SHTF.

My 2 cent.

scglock
02-18-2012, 1:02 AM
I practice the sling shot method. When loading, i feel its easier/faster for me to just bring my loading hand over the top of my gun and sling-shot it in one motion instead of using the slide release. The slide stop will wear out eventually but I dont think the slide itself will

dobsy5111
02-18-2012, 1:41 AM
I've built up the muscle memory to use the slide release when doing a combat reload. It's second nature to me now and it just seems faster. Move my thumb 1 inch to the lever (thumb is actually already on the release by the time the mag clicks in, just need to press down).... or move support hand from pushing mag in all the way to the top of the gun, grip slide, pull back and release? Thumb to slide release works better for me. if done right, mag clicks in and slide goes forward almost at the same time.

VictorFranko
02-18-2012, 2:43 AM
GLOCK calls it a "slide stop lever" for a reason, not a "slide release".

I have seen semi-autos fail to fully go into battery releasing the slide with the slide stop lever, never with the overhand method.

Twofer
02-18-2012, 3:33 AM
I have seen semi-autos fail to fully go into battery releasing the slide with the slide stop lever, never with the sling-shot method.

I have. My old SA Champion 1911 4". It just wouldn't go into battery on a full mag. Slide release or slingshot.

That said, slingshot'ing is my preferred method. Or on certain guns, just ram the magazine in there and let the slide go forward without any other action. (Like on a M&P.)

G60
02-18-2012, 6:56 AM
Let's dispense with the motor skills rubbish right now before it gets ever further out of hand.

" As soon as you hear someone starting to talk about gross motor skills and fine motor skills, you are officially justified in tuning out. Both racking the slide and hitting the slide release are fine motor skills...

Hitting slide release lever = fine motor skill
Overhand racking slide = fine motor skill
Slingshotting slide = fine motor skill
Banging head against wall after hearing this debate the 1,000th time = gross motor skill"

http://pistol-training.com/archives/160

G60
02-18-2012, 7:00 AM
fine motor skills goes out the door when stressed. So attempting to drop that stop with your thumb is hard to do when SHTF.

My 2 cent.

You do realize pulling a trigger, aligning weapon sights, hitting a mag release, seating another magazine are all fine motor skills as well. How come nobody ever tells people not to do those things in a gunfight?

Steve1968LS2
02-18-2012, 7:14 AM
GLOCK calls it a "slide stop lever" for a reason, not a "slide release".

I have seen semi-autos fail to fully go into battery releasing the slide with the slide stop lever, never with the sling-shot method.

I've seen people "ride" the slide using the slingshot meathod or they somehow mess it up causing some sort of feeding issue.

I use the slide release just because it's what I'm used to doing.

Mr310
02-18-2012, 9:11 AM
I use the slide release. There are 1911s out there that have been used HARD for thousands of rounds for centuries and have no peening of the slide stop notch in the slide. It's also HIGHLY doubtful that the slingshot method was used for even half of the releases of the slide.

As someone said earlier, just don't do it on an empty chamber.

JJ1911
02-18-2012, 9:21 AM
A 1911 has a slide release, a glock has a slide stop. The 1911 slide release is pretty hefty compared to the glock slide stop. I use slingshot because its consistent with all my semi autos.

Ubermcoupe
02-18-2012, 9:32 AM
GLOCK calls it a "slide stop lever" for a reason, not a "slide release".


I’m with VF on this. It’s a slide stop.
Semantics aside, sometimes the slide stop is too tough to disengage.

“They” say “tap and rack” not “tap and disengage the slide stop”

Your preference.

walmart_ar15
02-18-2012, 10:16 AM
IMHO, most loading and reloading situations require racking the slide; loading an empty gun, clear a mis-fire, and clear a FTF/FTE. Loading with a slide lock back, only happens when the shooter empty the gun.

In a "combat" situation (something we face on a daily basis :rolleyes:) empty ones firearm in a fire fight may not end well. Therefore, training will dictate that shooter to count their shots so as to reload when there are still round in the chamber. Hence, common wisdom is to train folks to rack the slide to impinged that into muscle memory to respond to a stoppage, not to reload because the gun is empty. Besides, racking the slide will load 99.9% of the modern auto hand guns. Not all gun's slide release are in the same location with the same feel.

However, racking the slide will take your gun off the point of aim (not a worry when you gun is jammed anyway), so most competition shooters will use the slide release to reload as they empty their weapon. Most common is to use the weak hand thumb after inserting the new mag. Some do use strong side thumb, but generally will require re-aligning of target once the gun is reloaded.

At the range punching paper, just do what ever is comfortable to you. Slide wear from using the slide release is just not going to be that noticeable from a life time of use.

bear308
02-18-2012, 10:28 AM
Technique aside, I've sent a lot of glocks to Georgia because of a worn out slide stop notch in the slide. However you probably won't shoot it enough to get to that point.

Old4eyes
02-18-2012, 10:31 AM
If a picture is worth a thousand words, then a video has to be worth more.
Take a gander at ZombieTactics Gun FU on this subject:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JST1HaSMuB8&list=PLEB7BB44447E350BC&index=4&feature=plpp_video

G60
02-18-2012, 10:46 AM
FWIW, your manual (you did read it, didn't you?) should have this exact text in it somewhere:
"Insert a new magazine and then EITHER push the slide stop lever (27) downwards (see photo), or pull the slide slightly backwards and allow it to spring forwards. The weapon is now again secured and ready to fire."

Again, do whatever you feel comfortable with.

Grumpyoldretiredcop
02-18-2012, 10:53 AM
Laughed at that video. When my agency transitioned to Glocks, the trainers referred to a Glock that goes into battery when you slam a magazine into the pistol as a "Bonus Glock". It isn't always a good thing as slamming a plastic magazine against a plastic slide stop can do interesting things to both of them.

Seriously, with the Glock, rack the slide. I've watched quite a number of Glock-using officers who thought it was a slide release experience failures, usually failure to go fully into battery, when dropping the slide by releasing the slide stop.

As for the "big muscle/small muscle" debate, it has more to do with the technique used to rack the slide. Reaching over and trapping the slide between the fingers and the heel of the hand uses larger muscles than grasping the slide from the rear with the fingertips. Hurt your hand, and the latter technique won't work so well. The reachover technique will work as long as you have one finger working to trap the slide against the heel of the hand. Go ahead, try it.

vintagearms
02-18-2012, 11:06 AM
What competant trainer have you been to that has advocated using the slide release/slide stop lever as a way of releasing the slide?

Both the overhand and slingshot are a GROSS motor skill, not a fine motor skill.


Let's dispense with the motor skills rubbish right now before it gets ever further out of hand.

" As soon as you hear someone starting to talk about gross motor skills and fine motor skills, you are officially justified in tuning out. Both racking the slide and hitting the slide release are fine motor skills...

Hitting slide release lever = fine motor skill
Overhand racking slide = fine motor skill
Slingshotting slide = fine motor skill
Banging head against wall after hearing this debate the 1,000th time = gross motor skill"

http://pistol-training.com/archives/160

G60
02-18-2012, 11:21 AM
What competant trainer have you been to that has advocated using the slide release/slide stop lever as a way of releasing the slide?
Oh, I dunno, Todd L Green, Rob Leatham, Dave Sevigny, Travis Haley, Larry Vickers, Kyle Defoor, among others. You might have heard of them? Or probably not, considering your post. It's "competent" btw. Ironic, isn't it.

Both the overhand and slingshot are a GROSS motor skill, not a fine motor skill.
No, they're not, did you read the post, or does that require too many fine motor skills?

tuna quesadilla
02-18-2012, 12:07 PM
If empty, not a great practice...

I use the slide release. There are 1911s out there that have been used HARD for thousands of rounds for centuries and have no peening of the slide stop notch in the slide. It's also HIGHLY doubtful that the slingshot method was used for even half of the releases of the slide.

As someone said earlier, just don't do it on an empty chamber.

The reason for "don't do it on an empty chamber" is because of one of several design flaws in the 1911. Dropping the slide on an empty chamber of a 1911 can cause sear/trigger damage. This does not apply to the Glock, or any other modern pistol for that matter.

tuna quesadilla
02-18-2012, 12:12 PM
Oh, I dunno, Todd L Green, Rob Leatham, Dave Sevigny, Travis Haley, Larry Vickers, Kyle Defoor, among others. You might have heard of them? Or probably not, considering your post. It's "competent" btw. Ironic, isn't it.


No, they're not, did you read the post, or does that require too many fine motor skills?

Frankly, I don't care what your semantic definition of "fine" vs "gross" is.

You can argue racking the slide vs. pressing the slide stop all day long.

The fact is that using your whole hand to grab the slide and rack it does not require as much dexterity as using the very tip of your thumb to swipe a button the size of your pinky fingernail.

It is for that reason, and the fact that racking is a universal movement that will work equally on ALL semi-autos, that I prefer racking over using the slide stop.

VictorFranko
02-18-2012, 12:20 PM
Wow, I actually learned something from a ZombieTactics video.
I didn't know that "sling-shot" referred to the little "grip" thing ZT was doing.
I reach over the top (overhand) and rack the slide forcefully, actually punching the gun forward, right into my natural shooting position.

HiveDR.
02-18-2012, 1:41 PM
Oh, I dunno, Todd L Green, Rob Leatham, Dave Sevigny, Travis Haley, Larry Vickers, Kyle Defoor, among others. You might have heard of them? Or probably not, considering your post. It's "competent" btw. Ironic, isn't it.


No, they're not, did you read the post, or does that require too many fine motor skills?

You forgot one, Col. Jeff Copper the father of modern handgun tactics.

USMC 82-86
02-18-2012, 2:25 PM
I use the overhand method always have. I use it because it feels natural for me and I also clear malfunctions with the same method, I don't have to change anything regardless if the gun is running smooth or I encounter a malfunction. I also turn my weapon between 45 and 90 degrees when inserting my mags it is the way I was trained and it feels comfortable and natural. I don't worry about a mag falling out because it wasn't seated properly when doing a retention reload or a tactical reload. I like the tactical reload as well and train for them as well but one mag at a time is what most people should stick to, to help ensure that a good mag does not go on the ground and it is harder to ensure a good seating of the magazine under stress. I think what is important is to do what you do well and do it everytime just like the time before and when you need to put it to the test you will be ready. Consistency in your training method and doing it the right way everytime is what is important not that your method is different from someone else.

Sorry for the long winded response just get carried away when comparing what amounts to a choice in methods to get a job done.

PRCABR4Christ
02-18-2012, 2:28 PM
I'm a sling shot kinda guy...never had a prob :)

Lc17smp
02-18-2012, 6:47 PM
I bought a HK just so I dont worry about releasing the slide. ;)

707electrician
02-18-2012, 6:53 PM
FWIW, your manual (you did read it, didn't you?) should have this exact text in it somewhere:
"Insert a new magazine and then EITHER push the slide stop lever (27) downwards (see photo), or pull the slide slightly backwards and allow it to spring forwards. The weapon is now again secured and ready to fire."

Again, do whatever you feel comfortable with.

/thread

negolien
02-19-2012, 3:37 AM
I've seen people "ride" the slide using the slingshot meathod or they somehow mess it up causing some sort of feeding issue.

I use the slide release just because it's what I'm used to doing.

I have also seens issues with riding the slide...If I can at all help it I do use the slide stop lever.

SAR_boats
02-19-2012, 4:12 AM
Do whatever feels best.

The slingshot method is good if youre an operator who may have to improvise and use unfamiliar weapons in a combat situation, some of which do not have a slide release yet still lock back on an empty mag (ex: Walther PPK/s, Makarov), or ones that do not lock back at all (ex: Davis Industries .380) because the slingshot method will get the weapon ready to fire using the same motions whether a slide release is present or not, and whether the slide is locked back or not. Additionally, if the weapon jams it is the same motion to rack the slide to clear the jam. And there have been several examples of autos with slide releases that have failed to lock back on an empty mag. (My Sig 226 used to do this with Meg-Gar 20rd mags until I tuned the slide release return spring) If this happens, you have no choice but to slingshot to get a new round chambered.

IMHO: using the slide release to drop the slide is faster with practice because your firing hand thumb can ride on the slide stop as soon as the mag is released so that when your off hand drives the fresh mag home your thumb can actuate the slide release and make the weapon ready to use while your off hand is moving to its position on the grip of the pistol.

So, I would say that slingshot method has a wider range of applications, but slide stop is faster.

Personally, I slingshot, but that is what I was trained to do.

ruchik
02-19-2012, 5:11 AM
We need to make a distinction here. "Slingshot" is when you grasp the slide with your index finger and thumb, then pull it back. "Overhand" is when you come over the top of the gun and use your entire hand to powerstroke the slide back. Let's not confuse the OP.

Powerstroke or slide release, the correct method is the one that works 95% of the time FOR YOU. Generally people tend to stay away from slingshot method, however, as it's easy to slip off the slide using only two fingers.

BMWguy206
02-19-2012, 5:23 AM
Travis Haley on Slide Release or Power Stroke
http://youtu.be/-jm4-R4hYy8

MA2
02-19-2012, 9:42 AM
OP - yes, metal to metal, of course something will eventually wear out.
But as stated, the slide stop will probably will go first, but might be a long long while.
I would not worry about it with Glock's steel slide. Other guns with aluminum/alloy slides, maybe.

As far as the never ending battle of slide release or rack back method, I would recommend to at least be proficient on both.
My only issue with the rack back is, sometimes see shooter (maybe new shooter) at the range ease it in or their hand rides forward with the slide.

Enjoy the G17! :)

MossbergMan
02-19-2012, 11:05 AM
Recommended reading on the subject of Gross v. Complex v. Fine moter control under stress (G60 feel free to tune out) is Bruce Siddle's "Sharpening the Warriors Edge".
Siddle compiles multiple studies by national and international sources. The U.S. Military and the NRA Law Enforcement training division have done many extensive studies on the effects of extreme stress on the human body and how it reacts to it.
Haley's video was a good example using the "power stroke" slide release method v. Slide Stop releasing. Continuity of techniques goes a long way with me too.
Last time I spoke with Rob Leatham he has not had to use his handgun in self defense. Nor did Cooper ever use a handgun in combat. Almost all of our current gun handling techniques have come from the competitive arena. Not that it's a bad thing, its just apples and oranges on the actual stress level.
If it's your life on the line, use what you're trained in and confident with. If it's my life on the line I'll use the power stoke method every time....unless I get a "Glock Bonus" bounce slide closure upon seating the magazine.
Having been in more than one or two life threatening situations and having experienced the adrenalin dump of fight or flight, I can appreciate the power stroke for what it is, 100% reliable. And let's not forget the left handed minority....power stroke or slinshot is about the only way (S&W M &P pistols excepted). Yes, I know you can reach under the gun "blind", after seating a magazine, and release the slide with the slide stop lever. But if takes two or more attempts at hitting the slide stop.....the power stroke would have been faster.
Not every gun owner is going to dedicate the hundreds of hours required to ingrain a specific behavior. So I say, use what the body is going to do naturally.

just my two cent worth.

CrippledPidgeon
02-19-2012, 11:36 AM
“They” say “tap and rack” not “tap and disengage the slide stop”

Your preference.

Generally when you have to "tap and rack," you're clearing a malfunction of some sort, and in that case, the slide is not locked back to begin with.

003
02-19-2012, 12:14 PM
While I do appreciate progress and even being of the age and temperament when I could be called a curmudgeon I really do not see any benefit to using the new improved “slingshot” or overhand method. It has only been the last few years where the new breed of “combat” instructors has started using/pushing this method.

I understand the rational when someone says it is the only method that can be used with all semi automatic pistols. But what is not said is that most shooter only use one or two pistols. Any shooter worth his salt should be familiar enough with his pistol that he has no need to use a universal method. As for instructors that teach a variety of pistols, if they are competent, they should be familiar and comfortable with all of the weapons they are “teaching”.

The slide release/stop/lock was designed to both hold the slide open and release the slide when reloading a fresh magazine.

While I most certainly do agree that the slide release/stop/lock on most Glock pistols is almost too small and close to the frame to be practical to use as a release, I find it interesting the Glock installs an extended slide release on their target pistols (models 34 & 35), and makes them available to those that want to use them on other model's.

There is no question that using the slide release is much faster that using an overhand grip on the rear of the side to release it into battery.

To my way of thinking this “new and improved” method is nothing more than a change, and while change to improve something is good, change for the sake of change is not only silly, but a waste of time and energy.

Bert Gamble
02-19-2012, 1:22 PM
I can tell you for sure that you should not do it with a Nighthawk 1911. I have no idea how many times it took for the stop notch to be rounded off enough to fail to lock back, but it is now at the shop being repaired.

JB-Norcal
02-19-2012, 1:34 PM
Slide release method will vary from make and model, overhand or sling shot will not. What ever works for you, I like to keep it simple and consistant, JM .02

Echidin
02-19-2012, 1:49 PM
There are 1911s out there that have been used HARD for thousands of rounds for centuries and have no peening of the slide stop notch in the slide.

I'm not sure if you're intentionally overexaggerating to get your point across, but the M1911 came about in the late 1890s putting it somewhere around 115 years old.

SilverTauron
02-19-2012, 1:56 PM
I'm not sure if you're intentionally overexaggerating to get your point across, but the M1911 came about in the late 1890s putting it somewhere around 115 years old.

According to some classified archaeology data from Ancient Egypt , there's a stone tablet depicting King Tut wielding a 1911.Its why people thought the Egyptian royalty were gods on earth. ;)

Funny math aside I don't take stock in what the trendy & tactical fringes of society advocate. There will always be some old technique that comes back as a 'tactical' feature, which eventually is replaced by some other technique which was new long before any of us were around to have a say on the matter.

I do not operate in Military Special Forces, and the likelihood of me being in a firefight period is so low Id stand a greater chance willing the lottery.The odds of me shooting to slide lock having to reload are even lower.

paul0660
02-19-2012, 2:02 PM
Overhand, with thumb and pointer finger, actually tightens your grip as you rack the slide. Slingshot does the opposite. Slingshot also offers your gun to a nearby opponent.

I always go overhand, unless it is slow pitch.

STAGE 2
02-19-2012, 3:45 PM
This debate pops up from time to time and I swear if it wasn't created by some instructor trying to sell slots in one of his classes. Unless the gun guru who is advocating a particular technique on the basis of motor skills is an MD, physical therapist or something similar, he ain't qualified to discuss motor skills. Case in point, from web MD...

Fine motor skills are small movements – such as grabbing something with your thumb and forefinger – that use the small muscles of the fingers, toes, wrists, lips, and tongue. Gross motor skills are the bigger movements – such as running and jumping – that use the large muscles in the arms, legs, torso, and feet.

So the 'fine motor skills argument' is stupid because regardless of which method you use, they are both fine motor skills. Anyone who pedals this line should be avoided at all costs.

Sniper3142
02-19-2012, 4:10 PM
Slide release method will vary from make and model, overhand or sling shot will not. What ever works for you, I like to keep it simple and consistant, JM .02

+1

Exactly why I use the SLING-SHOT method.

Slide Stops/Releases vary in size and location. If you are using an unfamiliar pistol, using the Sling-Shot method is far more consistant.

Gladdis.45
02-19-2012, 4:38 PM
Well, I now understand the difference between the reloading techniques. After watching both of those videos, I've learned that I was reloading in an un-safe way. IMO, that's the slide-release method, due to the fact that I have to turn the pistol sideways a little in order to engage it. And I was also using the slingshot method which for me tends to move the barrel around a bit more then racking the slide. I shoot quite a bit, but I've never been taught the differences. Thank you OP for starting this thread as I've learned some valuable info here. After practicing a lot with snap caps, the "racking the slide" method DOES feel better and seems a bit safer for me.

Bw511
02-19-2012, 6:49 PM
I do appreciate zombie guy's argument about training muscle skills for something that works on ALL semis (no slide lock release on some). I don't exactly see the argument about rotating the firearm 90* vs drawing it in for overhand though.

BayouBullets
02-19-2012, 7:17 PM
Frankly, I don't care what your semantic definition of "fine" vs "gross" is.

You can argue racking the slide vs. pressing the slide stop all day long.

The fact is that using your whole hand to grab the slide and rack it does not require as much dexterity as using the very tip of your thumb to swipe a button the size of your pinky fingernail.

It is for that reason, and the fact that racking is a universal movement that will work equally on ALL semi-autos, that I prefer racking over using the slide stop.

No problem with the parts, just good to have a habit that translates to ANY semi-auto pistol.

locosway
02-19-2012, 8:57 PM
I'm 21 and I just bought my first gun yesterday, a Glock 17, after months of researching, going to ranges, and shops. I just want to know if it is true that pushing the slide release lever causes indirect wearing of the slide, causing it one day to fail to lock.

Glock recommends to use the sling shot method, as do many instructors. This is the method I teach people, however I've become used to hitting my slide lock lever to release the slide because it's much faster.

tbc
02-19-2012, 9:36 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jm4-R4hYy8&feature=g-vrec&context=G2c63f1aRVAAAAAAAAAA

Mr310
02-19-2012, 10:06 PM
I'm not sure if you're intentionally overexaggerating to get your point across, but the M1911 came about in the late 1890s putting it somewhere around 115 years old.

I was being facetious..

It's kind of an inside joke between my shooting buddies and I when this guy at Angeles referred to it as "old as dirt" when he was talking about how much superior his Glock was. ;)

I suppose if I had said millennia, it would have been more readily apparent.

Echidin
02-19-2012, 10:29 PM
I was being facetious..

It's kind of an inside joke between my shooting buddies and I when this guy at Angeles referred to it as "old as dirt" when he was talking about how much superior his Glock was. ;)

I suppose if I had said millennia, it would have been more readily apparent.

I had a feeling that might have been the case. Thanks for clearing that up.

Mr310
02-19-2012, 10:35 PM
I had a feeling that might have been the case. Thanks for clearing that up.

Yeah. It's fine. On the original point though, it's been around for a long, long, time, and literally the first one that I've seen or heard of with peening was Bert Gamble's in the thread he posted not that long ago. I don't think it was due to regular wear, either. :shrug:

Gnome
02-19-2012, 10:37 PM
I personally use the slide stop/release method. It is the way I was trained on a handgun from day one, and I am comfortable, proficient, and fast with it. I tried the "overhand" method, and didn't like it because it slows me downed.

I also agree with G60, in regards to "fine motor" vs. "gross motor." Every single movement in regards to weapon manipulation is a fine motor skill. The finest example is, retrieving a square magazine, INDEXING it, and inserting it into a square hole. So the argument about fine motor skills going out the window is a moot point.

I had the privilege of training with US Training (Black Water) for two days, and they also made the same argument about "fine motor skills" being a moot point.

The most important thing reputable trainers/instructors (Black Water, Magpul, Tiger Swan) teach, is there is no "best way" on how to do something. It is about what "works best for you."

Omil
02-19-2012, 10:58 PM
The most important thing reputable trainers/instructors (Black Water, Magpul, Tiger Swan) teach, is there is no "best way" on how to do something. It is about what "works best for you."

+1..well said!

doug-y-doug
02-19-2012, 11:32 PM
I always push the slide stop on my guns. It's the way I was taught in the service.

taloft
02-19-2012, 11:54 PM
I use the overhand method but, I've used them all at one time or another. I've also seen load failures using all three methods. Usually under stress at a tactical match.

1. Stop lever released just prior to fully seating the mag. Result: shooter had to rack the slide to chamber a round. Also, can't disengage slide because stop is too tight.

2. Hand slips off gun using sling shot method. Result: slide not fully retracted and failed to go fully into battery. I've also seen this happen where the hand slipped off prior to disengaging the stop resulting in the slide remaining in the locked open position.

3. Overhand covers ejection port. Result: FTE resulting in a stove pipe. Also seen people ride the slide causing a failure to properly feed.

All methods can fail if you don't practice or they are performed improperly. I prefer the overhand because it works on every semi auto I own. Some of those levers are tiny and way too tight. YMMV.

Gladdis.45
02-20-2012, 11:49 AM
...