PDA

View Full Version : Is this legal? Is it a good idea? Your input wanted :)


SAR_boats
02-17-2012, 7:08 AM
So, here is what I have done:

I have a handgun in a gunvault nanovault 300 that is bolted to the tranny hump behind the center console in my Jeep.

It is unloaded, action open.

I have loaded magazines in the seat cover pouch behind my shins.

As far as I know this is completely legal but I can have the pistol out and loaded in about 1.5 seconds should I have to. (been practicing :) )

First off, legality: I studied the laws extensively, but I wanted to get your take on the legality of this.

Second: Suggestions on how to make this setup better.

Thanks!

mdimeo
02-17-2012, 9:09 AM
There's some risk that a gun safe bolted inside the passenger compartment would be a "utility compartment" under california law. 12026.1 is the penal code section I found, but I don't know if that's been renumbered.

Is there any case law on this?

If there's no helpful case law, a safe attached with a cable might be more defensible than a safe attached with bolts to the car, in my non-lawyerly opinion.

SouperMan
02-17-2012, 9:17 AM
Kind of iffy on a lot of aspects:

1) I thought a permanent attachment of a safe violates a container rule; the container contains the firearm and for the purposes of transport the container containing the firearm ingresses/egresses the vehicle as the same. Basically, a gun in a container must stay in the container while exiting the vehicle. If the gun is removed from the vehicle with no container/lock, it's a violation. (I'll find more info on this)

2) You must be enroute to a gun range or hunting grounds, all points direct while transporting a firearm; cannot keep a firearm in the car at all times for ready access.

References:

http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/Transporting

Apologies for the FUD!

taperxz
02-17-2012, 9:21 AM
A gun safe is not a utility ccompartment. When mounting the safe I would use wing nuts for ease of removing the safe. Just in case. There is no case law on this situation.

Big Ben
02-17-2012, 9:23 AM
By bolting the box down, you have something that COULD be interpreted as a "utility box." See the PC below. Not sure how most LEOs would respond to it, but it is a risk (minor in my opinion, but IANAL).

A couple of quick thoughts. You could modify the system so that it isn't bolted to the tranny hump, but rather used pins in those same bolt holes to keep it from sliding around (ie, you would be able to lift the box straight up, but it would be held in place by dowels/pins in those bolt holes), then use the security cable to attach it to the vehicle. I think that gets you around the risk that it be treated as a "utility box". Of course, attaching it with a 1/4" security cable is less secure than bolting it down, and in an open topped Jeep, maybe a worse idea. Stupid CA gun laws.

Assuming you are comfortable leaving it bolted down with the "utility box" risk discussed above, you might consider putting some type of cover on the box so that it doesn't "scream" gun case to a LEO or anyone else that might see it as they walk by. Something as simple as tossing a T-Shirt over it, or gluing a vinyl/fabric cover (maybe something that matches your seat covers) to the box so it looks a little less like a gun case.

Just a couple of thoughts. Good luck.

S12026.1. (a) Section 12025 shall not be construed to prohibit any citizen of the United States over the age of 18 years who resides or is temporarily within this state, and who is not within the excepted classes prescribed by Section 12021 or 12021.1 of this code or Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code, from transporting or carrying any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person, provided that the following applies to the firearm:
(1) The firearm is within a motor vehicle and it is locked in the vehicle's trunk or in a locked container in the vehicle other than the utility or glove compartment.
(2) The firearm is carried by the person directly to or from any motor vehicle for any lawful purpose and, while carrying the firearm, the firearm is contained within a locked container.
(b) The provisions of this section do not prohibit or limit the otherwise lawful carrying or transportation of any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person in accordance with this chapter.
(c) As used in this section, "locked container" means a secure container which is fully enclosed and locked by a padlock, key lock, combination lock, or similar locking device.

p7m8jg
02-17-2012, 9:28 AM
I think you're good to go transporting it that way. It's unloaded in a fully enclosed locked container that's not the glovebox.

I don't know of any case law that says you can't otherwise keep a gun in your vehicle at all times unloaded and in a locked container.

As Big Ben says, you "may" have an issue carrying it to/from your vehicle if its not still in a locked container.

SAR_boats
02-17-2012, 9:35 AM
Kind of iffy on a lot of aspects:



2) You must be enroute to a gun range or hunting grounds, all points direct while transporting a firearm; cannot keep a firearm in the car at all times for ready access.

References:

http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/Transporting


The firearm is carried by the person directly to or from
any motor vehicle for any lawful purpose and, while carrying
the firearm, the firearm is contained within a locked
container.


It doesn't say anything about hunting/shooting range specific. I read it that as long as I am not on my way to/from an illegal activity then I am ok, in my non-lawyerly opinion. Thoughts?

SAR_boats
02-17-2012, 9:39 AM
Assuming you are comfortable leaving it bolted down with the "utility box" risk discussed above, you might consider putting some type of cover on the box so that it doesn't "scream" gun case to a LEO or anyone else that might see it as they walk by. Something as simple as tossing a T-Shirt over it, or gluing a vinyl/fabric cover (maybe something that matches your seat covers) to the box so it looks a little less like a gun case.

Just a couple of thoughts. Good luck.

I would rather keep it bolted down for security purposes. I am more leery of someone breaking in, taking the pistol and using it for illegal means than a LEO seeing it through the window.

Good thought on t-shirt idea. I really like the idea of getting some matching carpeting to glue on it to camouflage it further. Thanks very much.




As Big Ben says, you "may" have an issue carrying it to/from your vehicle if its not still in a locked container.

The only time it would be coming out of the box would be at the range, where it will be transferred to a pelicase for range entry, or at home for cleaning, i.e. my private residence, protected under PC12026.

Big Ben
02-17-2012, 9:40 AM
Kind of iffy on a lot of aspects:

2) You must be enroute to a gun range or hunting grounds, all points direct while transporting a firearm; cannot keep a firearm in the car at all times for ready access.

References:

http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/Transporting

I don't think this is correct. I've heard this before, but have never seen anyone who could site a source for it. The wiki you reference doesn't mention anything like this at all. I think people get confused by the "directly to or from any MOTOR VEHICLE" portion of the PC, which relates to the carrying of a firearm by a person (typically on foot) as they go to or from their car, not where they have to travel while in their car.

Unless someone can provide a source for this, I'm going to politely say that it is incorrect.

Lives_In_Fresno
02-17-2012, 9:41 AM
The firearm is carried by the person directly to or from
any motor vehicle for any lawful purpose and, while carrying
the firearm, the firearm is contained within a locked
container.


It doesn't say anything about hunting/shooting range specific. I read it that as long as I am not on my way to/from an illegal activity then I am ok, in my non-lawyerly opinion. Thoughts?

Actually, that isn't what it says....(assuming you quoted the actual law, which I have not verified)

It says that the firearm is carried to or from the vehicle for any lawful purpose.

what is the lawful purpose you are carrying it to the vehicle for?

MaHoTex
02-17-2012, 9:42 AM
S12026.1. (a) Section 12025 shall not be construed to prohibit any citizen of the United States over the age of 18 years who resides or is temporarily within this state, and who is not within the excepted classes prescribed by Section 12021 or 12021.1 of this code or Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code, from transporting or carrying any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person, provided that the following applies to the firearm:
(1) The firearm is within a motor vehicle and it is locked in the vehicle's trunk or in a locked container in the vehicle other than the utility or glove compartment.
(2) The firearm is carried by the person directly to or from any motor vehicle for any lawful purpose and, while carrying the firearm, the firearm is contained within a locked container.
(b) The provisions of this section do not prohibit or limit the otherwise lawful carrying or transportation of any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person in accordance with this chapter.
(c) As used in this section, "locked container" means a secure container which is fully enclosed and locked by a padlock, key lock, combination lock, or similar locking device.
Wouldn't the word "THE" imply factory installed... singular, one... not a secondary aftermarket box attached to the vehicle?

Big Ben
02-17-2012, 9:43 AM
I would rather keep it bolted down for security purposes. I am more leery of someone breaking in, taking the pistol and using it for illegal means than a LEO seeing it through the window.

Good thought on t-shirt idea. I really like the idea of getting some matching carpeting to glue on it to camouflage it further. Thanks very much.

I don't disagree (RE: bolting it down), and would probably do the same in your scenario.

Good luck.

taperxz
02-17-2012, 9:43 AM
Kind of iffy on a lot of aspects:

1) I thought a permanent attachment of a safe violates a container rule; the container contains the firearm and for the purposes of transport the container containing the firearm ingresses/egresses the vehicle as the same. Basically, a gun in a container must stay in the container while exiting the vehicle. If the gun is removed from the vehicle with no container/lock, it's a violation. (I'll find more info on this)

2) You must be enroute to a gun range or hunting grounds, all points direct while transporting a firearm; cannot keep a firearm in the car at all times for ready access.

References:

http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/Transporting

You might need to research a little closer. Your kinda getting things mixed up.

taperxz
02-17-2012, 9:45 AM
Wouldn't the word "THE" imply factory installed... singular, one... not a secondary aftermarket box attached to the vehicle?

YES! Problem is, there has been no case law on this.

SouperMan
02-17-2012, 9:48 AM
Yup, I would bolt it down as well.

This is where I first saw the "do not bolt down" info:

http://www.calccw.com/Forums/general-faq/7142-transporting-handguns-california-faq.html

Man, some of the penal codes are straight black and white, and some are as clear as mud. Yikes.

SAR_boats
02-17-2012, 9:56 AM
Actually, that isn't what it says....(assuming you quoted the actual law, which I have not verified)

It says that the firearm is carried to or from the vehicle for any lawful purpose.

what is the lawful purpose you are carrying it to the vehicle for?

Lawful purpose: Exercising my rights, personal protection, a cop wont fit in the little box, 'cause I wanna, because those Al-Queda-Communist-Nazi-Zombies aren't going to shoot themselves, because I like firearms and I like people who like firearms and I want them to like me back, because it turns my girlfriend on, because it makes me feel like more of a man and carrying an extra penis around would be wierd, because I disagree with Rosie O'Donnell and Mayor Bloomburg, because I sincerely hope I never have to use it but hope and reality rarely meet, "Officer, why do you yourself have a firearm? Same answer" . (Pick all that apply) :)


Copied and pasted from Calguns wiki, edited for brevity. Here is the full thing:

26610. citizen of the United States over the age of 18 years
who resides or is temporarily within this state, and who is
not prohibited by state or federal law from possessing,
receiving, owning, or purchasing a firearm, from transporting
or carrying any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of
being concealed upon the person, provided that the following
applies to the firearm:
(1) The firearm is within a motor vehicle and it is locked
in the vehicle's trunk or in a locked container in the vehicle.
(2) The firearm is carried by the person directly to or from
any motor vehicle for any lawful purpose and, while carrying
the firearm, the firearm is contained within a locked
container.

SouperMan
02-17-2012, 9:58 AM
You might need to research a little closer. Your kinda getting things mixed up.

Much apologies if I am getting things mixed up, but I think this is what is resonating with me:

(2) The firearm is carried by the person directly to or from
any motor vehicle for any lawful purpose and, while carrying
the firearm, the firearm is contained within a locked
container.

I am all for the safe and secure storage of a firearm in a car. In recent news in Sacramento, a retired CHP officer had his gun and badge stolen from his car.
http://www.kcra.com/news/30424407/detail.html

SAR_boats
02-17-2012, 10:08 AM
I would love to get some LEO input on this. I know you guys are out there. And since you are the ones who are on the vanguard of enforcing the laws on a day to day basis I would really appreciate your opinion, eg. if you performed a routine traffic stop and saw this, or walked by a vehicle and saw this in it.

IrishPirate
02-17-2012, 10:13 AM
you'd only run into a problem if the LEO wanted to nit-pick the definition of a utility compartment. IMHO what you have is fine, but then again, i'm not an LEO so my opinion doesn't really help you....

SJgunguy24
02-17-2012, 10:14 AM
http://www.gunsafes.com/Desk-Mate.html

I used to have something like this that I made a sliding bracket for. I could pop 2 pins and throw it in my backpack when I went inside at the end of the day. My gun was locked, I could get it and have it loaded in a couple of seconds. I carried 3 loaded mags in the drivers door and the box was on the drivers side of the hump.
I did my reaserch, asked myself a few questions, and this is what I felt comfortable with.
(these are for my set up but you should ask yourself the same questions)
1) Is the gun locked and under your control only? -YES

2) Can the container be considered a utility box, and why not?- NO, it is mounted in a manner so I can take it with me at anytime while still locked.

3) How fast can you get to Roscoe should things go south in a hurry? - Pretty fricken fast, I could lock and load in a cxouple of seconds.

4) Is it mounted in a manner so nobody can see it while I'm in the vehicle? - YES

5) In case of LEO contact are you able to remove it and place it in plain sight to help any LEO understand that you have no ill intentions and possibly hand it to them during the contact?- YES

I went over this with a LEO freind of mine. Now before you say "You never ask cops for advice" this guy is razor fricken sharp (PHD at 27 years old and was already a LT and a bay area LEA) and he's known me since I was 13. We worked out what would be 100% legal and defensible in court.

Pat Riot
02-17-2012, 10:15 AM
Lawful purpose: Exercising my rights, personal protection, a cop wont fit in the little box, 'cause I wanna, because those Al-Queda-Communist-Nazi-Zombies aren't going to shoot themselves, because I like firearms and I like people who like firearms and I want them to like me back, because it turns my girlfriend on, because it makes me feel like more of a man and carrying an extra penis around would be wierd, because I disagree with Rosie O'Donnell and Mayor Bloomburg, because I sincerely hope I never have to use it but hope and reality rarely meet, "Officer, why do you yourself have a firearm? Same answer" . (Pick all that apply) :)


You sir, are a true punisher.

vantec08
02-17-2012, 10:17 AM
Geeez this sucks . .. . shading grains of sand for something as clear as the 2nd amendment.

Big Ben
02-17-2012, 10:26 AM
Geeez this sucks . .. . shading grains of sand for something as clear as the 2nd amendment.

You won't get any disagreement on that from me. Unfortunately, it is the world we live in right now. But don't forget, we are winning, and things are improving.

Wherryj
02-17-2012, 11:18 AM
I would rather keep it bolted down for security purposes. I am more leery of someone breaking in, taking the pistol and using it for illegal means than a LEO seeing it through the window.

Good thought on t-shirt idea. I really like the idea of getting some matching carpeting to glue on it to camouflage it further. Thanks very much.




The only time it would be coming out of the box would be at the range, where it will be transferred to a pelicase for range entry, or at home for cleaning, i.e. my private residence, protected under PC12026.

Bolting it down is a good idea, legal interpretations by CA LEOs aside. There are numerous threads online about seats being stolen from convertibles such as the S2000. Any vehicle with a soft top is relatively easy to violate for illiicit purposes.

The law seems to have been written to address the fact that some vehicles, such as the S2000, don't have a "glove box", but have a "utility container" located in a position atypical for a glove box. As usual, the wording of politicians leaves room for a huge amount of misinterpretation.

This is the problem with getting a bad lawyer to write your contract. Imprecise language leads to imprecise interpretation. That leaves the door open for those who would wish to misuse such imprecise wording and bend it to the maximum extent in an effort to help their cause.

You need to listen carefully to any actual lawyers-most notably anyone from CGF-about the extent to which this may legally be bent. You don't want to end up a "test case".

I do agree with you, however, that leaving the contained inadequately secured is a bad idea-both with respect to your property rights and with respect to being a reasonable gun owner who wishes to minimize the chances of your firearm getting into "the wrong hands".

taperxz
02-17-2012, 11:34 AM
Much apologies if I am getting things mixed up, but I think this is what is resonating with me:





(2) The firearm is carried by the person directly to or from
any motor vehicle for any lawful purpose and, while carrying
the firearm, the firearm is contained within a locked
container.


Don't discount the words, " for ANY lawful purpose"

Bill.Dozer23
02-17-2012, 11:52 AM
You guys need to stop trusting wiki(anything), especially when it comes to something that could land you years in jail.

I'm a young attorney, not a gun rights attorney, but the first thing you need to do when researching whether something is unlawful is to read the law.

California Penal Code Section 12026.1
(a) Section 12025 shall not be construed to prohibit any
citizen of the United States over the age of 18 years who resides or
is temporarily within this state, and who is not prohibited by state
or federal law from possessing, receiving, owning, or purchasing a
firearm, from transporting or carrying any pistol, revolver, or other
firearm capable of being concealed upon the person, provided that
the following applies to the firearm:
(1) The firearm is within a motor vehicle and it is locked in the
vehicle's trunk or in a locked container in the vehicle other than
the utility or glove compartment.
(2) The firearm is carried by the person directly to or from any
motor vehicle for any lawful purpose and, while carrying the firearm,
the firearm is contained within a locked container.
(b) The provisions of this section do not prohibit or limit the
otherwise lawful carrying or transportation of any pistol, revolver,
or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person in
accordance with this chapter.
(c) As used in this section, "locked container" means a secure
container which is fully enclosed and locked by a padlock, key lock,
combination lock, or similar locking device.

look at (c), is a gun safe a "secure container which is fully enclosed and locked by a... combination lock?" Yes? Is it a glove compartment or utility compartment? no? Ok then yes it's legal.

SouperMan
02-17-2012, 12:12 PM
look at (c), is a gun safe a "secure container which is fully enclosed and locked by a... combination lock?" Yes? Is it a glove compartment or utility compartment? no? Ok then yes it's legal.

I am not a lawyer, maybe just reading in too deep on the matter, but here's my reasoning:

Assumptions:
We know that Unloaded Open Carry is illegal, and Concealed Carry is illegal without a permit.

Fact:
Person A has a bolted down a container with lock in their vehicle.

Idea:
Any time Person A carries the gun, it is not in a locked container (from the house to the street where car is parked/from the gun range to the parking lot) because for the purpose of transporting the firearm in a vehicle, the gun is secure in the car (no argument here).

Hence,
(2) The firearm is carried by the person directly to or from any
motor vehicle for any lawful purpose and, while carrying the firearm,
the firearm is contained within a locked container.

Implication:
Person A has to either Open Carry or Conceal Carry to get gun to container located in vehicle.

Perhaps the easy way to get around this is to have a second container for the purposes of moving the gun in/out of the car.

cabinetguy
02-17-2012, 12:53 PM
hopefully this isnt too far off topic, but didnt Dodge come out with a truck with a lockable gun rack in the bed?
http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2010/08/13/chryslers-gun-toting-pickup-truck/?test=faces
I know its not in the passenger compartment, but it is a fixture of the truck. possibly mount it so it is not readily accessible from the drivers seat?

SAR_boats
02-17-2012, 2:10 PM
I am not a lawyer, maybe just reading in too deep on the matter, but here's my reasoning:

Assumptions:
We know that Unloaded Open Carry is illegal, and Concealed Carry is illegal without a permit.

Fact:
Person A has a bolted down a container with lock in their vehicle.

Idea:
Any time Person A carries the gun, it is not in a locked container (from the house to the street where car is parked/from the gun range to the parking lot) because for the purpose of transporting the firearm in a vehicle, the gun is secure in the car (no argument here).

Hence,


Implication:
Person A has to either Open Carry or Conceal Carry to get gun to container located in vehicle.

Perhaps the easy way to get around this is to have a second container for the purposes of moving the gun in/out of the car.

As posted before, if you are on your personal property PC 12026 protects going from home to car and into locked container.

No permit or license to ... carry, either openly or concealed,
shall be required of any citizen of the United States or legal
resident over the age of 18 years who resides or is temporarily
within this state ... who carries, either openly or concealed,
anywhere within the citizen's or legal resident's place of residence,
... or on private property owned or lawfully possessed by the
citizen or legal resident any pistol, revolver, or other firearm
capable of being concealed upon the person.

EG, as long as I am on my property (driveway counts) I can stick the pistol in my belt and transfer it to my contain once I am in the car. Common sense dictates that concealed works better here because Joe Neighbor may freak out if I mosey out to my front yard with it out in the open and the less people who see that I put a weapon in the truck, the better.

In my case, the weapon pretty much lives in the truck all the time, so there is very little transferring going on.

As for to a gun range, yes, you would have to have a separate container for that.

winnre
02-17-2012, 2:19 PM
If I was on a jury about this I;d say that a glove box or utility box is something that comes with the vehicle. No one ever adds their own glove box! If you added it yourself I'd not vote guilty.

My SUV has a utility box under the passenger seat with a fire extinguisher in it. There are also little pockets in the back of the SUV like for fix-a-flat or something, or maybe tools but they are built into the vehicle during manufacture.

It's your box. Call it what you want, just don't call it a glove box or a utility box.

Librarian
02-17-2012, 2:35 PM
Kind of iffy on a lot of aspects:

1) I thought a permanent attachment of a safe violates a container rule; the container contains the firearm and for the purposes of transport the container containing the firearm ingresses/egresses the vehicle as the same. Basically, a gun in a container must stay in the container while exiting the vehicle. If the gun is removed from the vehicle with no container/lock, it's a violation. (I'll find more info on this)

2) You must be enroute to a gun range or hunting grounds, all points direct while transporting a firearm; cannot keep a firearm in the car at all times for ready access.

References:

http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/Transporting

Good heavens, no! That is not at all what the wiki article says!

Locked container for handguns has become the only reasonable transport, either in or out of a vehicle; there are lots of exceptions to the 26350 open carry nonsense, but the easiest one to understand is locked case.

Since this thread is about automobile carry as a general thing, all of the place and time exceptions to 26350 are secondary.

No, there are no 'destination requirements' for transporting a handgun in a vehicle.

OP, in my opinion, bolting your case to your vehicle as described should be fine; however, there is no case law to clarify, so no absolute 'yes, it is OK / no, it is illegal' statement can be supported.

SilverTauron
02-17-2012, 2:45 PM
I spot a couple of problems with this setup.

In the event your vehicle breaks down or you experience a traffic accident, how can you legally transport the firearm in that event without a secondary box ?

Two, your setup isn't much good for self defense in a vehicle. The intent of those laws governing transport is to *prevent* you from being armed and behind the wheel. Rest assured that if a cretin tries to assault you there will not be time to even reach behind the seat, to say nothing of disengaging the lock & retrieving the magazine in time to load & draw down.I don't write this to shoot you down or discourage you ,but in all likelihood if you encounter a gun toting carjacker you would get shot while trying to access the piece.

For that matter if I encounter a crook there's a good chance the goblin's getting the first shot off before I can clear holster , and that's with me packing a loaded pistol with one in the chamber.


Under these circumstances bringing the gun is a liability ,as its useless for self defense locked and unloaded in a case and should a crook steal the car he gets a free Sig 9mm for his trouble.

Take it from me, ive worked in an auto repair shop, and anything that can be bolted to a car can be unbolted just as fast.If you don't care about the vehicle's condition ripping parts out becomes child's play. Im certain any two bit moron with a crowbar and decent muscle strength can pry that box out in the time it takes your computer to load this page. Sure it feels secure now, but that's because you took time to install it on account of you preserving your car . The would be theives don't have to worry about that.

My word would be to keep it at home or tote it to the range in a case, as keeping a functional firearm with ammo in the vehicle is asking for trouble.

When I transport guns in my car if its not on my person those pieces are field stripped and disassembled,with the slide and barrel put in a backpack and kept under my control when I leave the vehicle. To me a vehicle is one step removed from leaving your firearms on the street in plain view.

SouperMan
02-17-2012, 3:09 PM
Good heavens, no! That is not at all what the wiki article says!

Locked container for handguns has become the only reasonable transport, either in or out of a vehicle; there are lots of exceptions to the 26350 open carry nonsense, but the easiest one to understand is locked case.

Since this thread is about automobile carry as a general thing, all of the place and time exceptions to 26350 are secondary.

No, there are no 'destination requirements' for transporting a handgun in a vehicle.

OP, in my opinion, bolting your case to your vehicle as described should be fine; however, there is no case law to clarify, so no absolute 'yes, it is OK / no, it is illegal' statement can be supported.

Apologies for the earlier FUD interpretation. Stricken as such!

SAR_boats
02-17-2012, 3:39 PM
I spot a couple of problems with this setup.

In the event your vehicle breaks down or you experience a traffic accident, how can you legally transport the firearm in that event without a secondary box ?

Two, your setup isn't much good for self defense in a vehicle. The intent of those laws governing transport is to *prevent* you from being armed and behind the wheel. Rest assured that if a cretin tries to assault you there will not be time to even reach behind the seat, to say nothing of disengaging the lock & retrieving the magazine in time to load & draw down.I don't write this to shoot you down or discourage you ,but in all likelihood if you encounter a gun toting carjacker you would get shot while trying to access the piece.

For that matter if I encounter a crook there's a good chance the goblin's getting the first shot off before I can clear holster , and that's with me packing a loaded pistol with one in the chamber.


Under these circumstances bringing the gun is a liability ,as its useless for self defense locked and unloaded in a case and should a crook steal the car he gets a free Sig 9mm for his trouble.

Take it from me, ive worked in an auto repair shop, and anything that can be bolted to a car can be unbolted just as fast.If you don't care about the vehicle's condition ripping parts out becomes child's play. Im certain any two bit moron with a crowbar and decent muscle strength can pry that box out in the time it takes your computer to load this page. Sure it feels secure now, but that's because you took time to install it on account of you preserving your car . The would be theives don't have to worry about that.

My word would be to keep it at home or tote it to the range in a case, as keeping a functional firearm with ammo in the vehicle is asking for trouble.

When I transport guns in my car if its not on my person those pieces are field stripped and disassembled,with the slide and barrel put in a backpack and kept under my control when I leave the vehicle. To me a vehicle is one step removed from leaving your firearms on the street in plain view.

Good info. And very good insight. I will sit down with myself and think very carefully about this. You bring up some points that I hadn't considered, especially the fact that even though I can get to it quick, more than likely the perp with his weapon out and one in the chamber will be faster. I guess I was counting on situational awareness to see me through this, but then again, in most cases with the car running, if I can see them coming I should use the car (eg to get away), not the gun.

As for auto shop, etc, I am ASE certified so I do my own work.

Thanks very much for the info.

chiselchst
02-17-2012, 3:47 PM
I cannot advise on the legallity of your question. Others have...

But I'd love to see the cam video from the local PD on any traffic stop. I doubt you'd be treated well...seeing the large cap mags and a mini-vault mounted in vehicle, legal as they may be.

Not being a smart azz here - just being realistic.

inbox485
02-17-2012, 4:15 PM
I skimmed, so if I missed this point sorry, but I think a HUGE point is being completely missed. If your container is LOCKED, and an officer pulls you over for whatever reason, and for whatever reason asks what is in the box that is not when you start rattling off penal codes and what not. You could politely say that it contains personal items of a private nature. Or you could just shut your mouth. Either way, it really doesn't matter what you have since the officer has neither a warrant or probable cause, and you sure as heck aren't going to open it for them (RIGHT?!?). If the officer claims to have just cause to open it, don't resist, and let them have at it after you make clear your non-consent to any search. Done.

I've been pulled over in a car with guns in it. I've had the guns in places that a skittish, poorly versed (legally) cop would probably pitch a fit over, but it hasn't come up a single time because I shut my dang mouth.

In the event your vehicle breaks down or you experience a traffic accident, how can you legally transport the firearm in that event without a secondary box ?

I have personal experience to the contrary. In fact I probably would be dead had I not had a handgun stored in a similar fashion. Long story, but think of all the times where you might have time to call 911 but die on the phone. That is where having a gun stored in this manner makes all the sense in the world. Obviously it isn't much good if the first indicator of the threat is looking down a barrel, but as you mentioned, you are only a little better off with a holstered gun at that point.

Two, your setup isn't much good for self defense in a vehicle. The intent of those laws governing transport is to *prevent* you from being armed and behind the wheel. Rest assured that if a cretin tries to assault you there will not be time to even reach behind the seat, to say nothing of disengaging the lock & retrieving the magazine in time to load & draw down.I don't write this to shoot you down or discourage you ,but in all likelihood if you encounter a gun toting carjacker you would get shot while trying to access the piece.

The intent is obvious, but like many parts of CA law it was written by blithering morons, and is full of loopholes that can be lawfully exploited. I say any time you can get to a gun faster than police can get to you, you are better off for it even if it isn't as ideal as being locked and loaded in a holster.

Under these circumstances bringing the gun is a liability ,as its useless for self defense locked and unloaded in a case and should a crook steal the car he gets a free Sig 9mm for his trouble.

Take it from me, ive worked in an auto repair shop, and anything that can be bolted to a car can be unbolted just as fast.If you don't care about the vehicle's condition ripping parts out becomes child's play. Im certain any two bit moron with a crowbar and decent muscle strength can pry that box out in the time it takes your computer to load this page. Sure it feels secure now, but that's because you took time to install it on account of you preserving your car . The would be theives don't have to worry about that.

It isn't useless as I mentioned before, but I kind of get your point. If the case is so obvious as to attract attention, it could increase your risk of car theft and give a scum ball a loaded weapon at the same time. Both are worth minimizing the risk of. But I think some combination of tossing a shirt over the case or simply rethinking a different locked container could completely mitigate this.

To me a vehicle is one step removed from leaving your firearms on the street in plain view.

I would only agree if the gun was obvious from the exterior. Otherwise, if it is in a locked container, locked in your car, and out of sight, I'd compare it to being in your house in anything less than a true safe. First your car would be just another car, then the gun wouldn't be immediately accessible. The thief would have to get it, then deal with opening it.

deadsea
02-17-2012, 6:27 PM
I spot a couple of problems with this setup.

In the event your vehicle breaks down or you experience a traffic accident, how can you legally transport the firearm in that event without a secondary box ?

Two, your setup isn't much good for self defense in a vehicle. The intent of those laws governing transport is to *prevent* you from being armed and behind the wheel. Rest assured that if a cretin tries to assault you there will not be time to even reach behind the seat, to say nothing of disengaging the lock & retrieving the magazine in time to load & draw down.I don't write this to shoot you down or discourage you ,but in all likelihood if you encounter a gun toting carjacker you would get shot while trying to access the piece.

For that matter if I encounter a crook there's a good chance the goblin's getting the first shot off before I can clear holster , and that's with me packing a loaded pistol with one in the chamber.


Under these circumstances bringing the gun is a liability ,as its useless for self defense locked and unloaded in a case and should a crook steal the car he gets a free Sig 9mm for his trouble.

Take it from me, ive worked in an auto repair shop, and anything that can be bolted to a car can be unbolted just as fast.If you don't care about the vehicle's condition ripping parts out becomes child's play. Im certain any two bit moron with a crowbar and decent muscle strength can pry that box out in the time it takes your computer to load this page. Sure it feels secure now, but that's because you took time to install it on account of you preserving your car . The would be theives don't have to worry about that.

My word would be to keep it at home or tote it to the range in a case, as keeping a functional firearm with ammo in the vehicle is asking for trouble.

When I transport guns in my car if its not on my person those pieces are field stripped and disassembled,with the slide and barrel put in a backpack and kept under my control when I leave the vehicle. To me a vehicle is one step removed from leaving your firearms on the street in plain view.

I Totally Agree!

p7m8jg
02-17-2012, 6:58 PM
No, there are no 'destination requirements' for transporting a handgun in a vehicle.

OP, in my opinion, bolting your case to your vehicle as described should be fine; however, there is no case law to clarify, so no absolute 'yes, it is OK / no, it is illegal' statement can be supported.

What he said. Librarian speaks the truth.

You bring me a case wherein a citizen with no record had a concealed, unloaded, personally owned DROS'd weapon in a locked container within their vehicle and I'll show you a case I'm not going to prosecute.

Period. Look up Penal Code section 4.

ramathorn
02-17-2012, 7:14 PM
I heard that having a loaded magazine is considered having a loaded weapon because its part of the gun. I have no idea if its true or not. If you have a CCW permit it wouldn't matter.

paul0660
02-17-2012, 7:20 PM
Great thread. Original poster, your setup is golden.

ramathorn, go watch the movie again, they actually discuss this.

Which Way Out
02-17-2012, 7:52 PM
Well for the sake of argument, A Jeep Wrangler has no real factory "Trunk" A plastic aftermarket device can be bought that goes to the very back of the Jeep and is accessed by opening the tailgate.

Lets just say you took a metal box of any kind that can be locked by whatever already approved lock and like the OP said bolted it to the floor of the Jeep.
Put a label on it that said TRUNK.
Jeeps without the hardtop on are always inviting people to see whats inside. A company named Tuffy has the market cornered on making secure compartments for Jeeps as well as other vehicles. I have one in my Jeep as an overhead console to hold my HAM radio. Always thought it could hold a hand gun very easy. Keyed lock and heavy gauge steel.

Librarian
02-17-2012, 8:17 PM
I heard that having a loaded magazine is considered having a loaded weapon because its part of the gun. I have no idea if its true or not. If you have a CCW permit it wouldn't matter.

Not true, and LTC/CCW would exempt if it were.

See the wiki on 'loaded' -- http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/Defining_loaded_in_California, especially A loaded magazine is not the same as a loaded weapon, and possession of a weapon and a loaded magazine for that weapon does not, necessarily, mean you have a loaded weapon. and the wiki article summarizing 'what is a firearm' -- http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/Definition_of_a_firearm/gun

huntercf
02-17-2012, 8:33 PM
I heard that having a loaded magazine is considered having a loaded weapon because its part of the gun. I have no idea if its true or not. If you have a CCW permit it wouldn't matter.

That is incorrect, in order to be loaded the magazine has to be in the firearm. From what I understand if the magazine is not in the gun, even if the mag is in your pocket, the gun is considered unloaded.

SAR_boats
02-18-2012, 7:13 PM
I skimmed, so if I missed this point sorry, but I think a HUGE point is being completely missed. If your container is LOCKED, and an officer pulls you over for whatever reason, and for whatever reason asks what is in the box that is not when you start rattling off penal codes and what not. You could politely say that it contains personal items of a private nature. Or you could just shut your mouth. Either way, it really doesn't matter what you have since the officer has neither a warrant or probable cause, and you sure as heck aren't going to open it for them (RIGHT?!?). If the officer claims to have just cause to open it, don't resist, and let them have at it after you make clear your non-consent to any search. Done.

I've been pulled over in a car with guns in it. I've had the guns in places that a skittish, poorly versed (legally) cop would probably pitch a fit over, but it hasn't come up a single time because I shut my dang mouth.



I have personal experience to the contrary. In fact I probably would be dead had I not had a handgun stored in a similar fashion. Long story, but think of all the times where you might have time to call 911 but die on the phone. That is where having a gun stored in this manner makes all the sense in the world. Obviously it isn't much good if the first indicator of the threat is looking down a barrel, but as you mentioned, you are only a little better off with a holstered gun at that point.



The intent is obvious, but like many parts of CA law it was written by blithering morons, and is full of loopholes that can be lawfully exploited. I say any time you can get to a gun faster than police can get to you, you are better off for it even if it isn't as ideal as being locked and loaded in a holster.



It isn't useless as I mentioned before, but I kind of get your point. If the case is so obvious as to attract attention, it could increase your risk of car theft and give a scum ball a loaded weapon at the same time. Both are worth minimizing the risk of. But I think some combination of tossing a shirt over the case or simply rethinking a different locked container could completely mitigate this.



I would only agree if the gun was obvious from the exterior. Otherwise, if it is in a locked container, locked in your car, and out of sight, I'd compare it to being in your house in anything less than a true safe. First your car would be just another car, then the gun wouldn't be immediately accessible. The thief would have to get it, then deal with opening it.

Solid counterpoints. I think I will get a piece of matching carpet to cover it up so that only the dial and opening cam are visible.

That plus the tinted windows, and that the Jeep is an '89 hardtop that looks a little worse for wear means I doubt anyone will want to steal it much less break in. (The whole vehicle is only worth about $3000)

And yes, if a cop asks what is in the case, IF he sees it, the answer is "personal items of a private nature"


I cannot advise on the legallity of your question. Others have...

But I'd love to see the cam video from the local PD on any traffic stop. I doubt you'd be treated well...seeing the large cap mags and a mini-vault mounted in vehicle, legal as they may be.

Not being a smart azz here - just being realistic.

Fair enough, and you have a good point. Luckily, I was in the military from 98-06 and the high-caps were acquired while I was active duty. Which I will gladly tell a LEO to help resolve any misconception. If he sees them

SilverTauron
02-18-2012, 7:26 PM
Solid counterpoints. I think I will get a piece of matching carpet to cover it up so that only the dial and opening cam are visible.

That plus the tinted windows, and that the Jeep is an '89 hardtop that looks a little worse for wear means I doubt anyone will want to steal it much less break in. (The whole vehicle is only worth about $3000)

And yes, if a cop asks what is in the case, IF he sees it, the answer is "personal items of a private nature"

Do not believe that because your vehicle is 'old' that it won't be targeted for theft!

Before moving into downtown Chicago some years ago I believed my older GM sedan would hardly be a target for theft or break ins. I quickly realized this logic was flawed for the following reasons. Older vehicles are often considered by felons on account of them not having computer-aided vehicle theft prevention systems.
In addition there is financial motivation for stealing cars as parts sources, for while your 1989 Jeep isn't worth much sold as a complete truck the matter changes when the vehicle is broken apart at a chop shop into components and those parts are sold for individual sale. Its one reason why popular cars such as Toyota's and Honda's stay on the anti-theft list year after year.

I do not wish to suggest that a citizen should deprive themselves of the legal ability to defend oneself,but those were the flaws with that setup as I saw it. My only suggestion would be finding a way to hide the ammunition from prying eyes, so that in the event of a joyride or petty robbery a crook looking for a GPS or quick buck won't find the mags. Seeing a loaded magazine anywhere in plain sight will suggest other, more valuable things await.

Another tip would be to keep your setup as secret as possible. Don't tell anyone, not your friends, your brother, or even your lady friend what's in that box. Loose lips indeed have sunk ships, and a car is easier to target for an inside job theft than a gunsafe inside of a residence.

SAR_boats
02-18-2012, 7:34 PM
Another tip would be to keep your setup as secret as possible. Don't tell anyone, not your friends, your brother, or even your lady friend what's in that box. Loose lips indeed have sunk ships, and a car is easier to target for an inside job theft than a gunsafe inside of a residence.

NOW you tell me! It'll be our (all of Calguns) little secret. Nothing to see here, move along, people. lol

Again, good points. Thanks for your input.

wuluf
02-19-2012, 8:20 AM
Got enough flashlights there, Butch?:D

SAR_boats
02-19-2012, 7:41 PM
Got enough flashlights there, Butch?:D

Yup, one for each hand. Hey, what if one fails? :)

wuluf
02-19-2012, 8:38 PM
from that last pic, if one fails, you STILL have one for each hand. that's prepared!

Agent Orange
02-19-2012, 8:40 PM
Legalities aside that setup isn't very secure since that vault can be defeated in two seconds with nothing more than a pair of pliers.