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echobeach
02-16-2012, 7:59 AM
Hello, I need someone to clarify the law for me.

I am a British guy who regularly visits the US and has attended Front Sight's firearms training facility just outside of las Vegas.

I have attended twice now and was looking to return this summer. As a Brit i obviously cannot purchase a handgun to use and rent a weapon from the range which is stored. As I have to rent i am obliged to purchase ammo from their store.

I have purchased ammo before and transported the ammo in my car from my las Vegas hotel to the range. I have now been led to believe it is a felony for non citizens to be in possession of ammunition.

Is this true ? They don't seem to know or mind about this.

I definitely do not want to end up in jail or be deported and banned from visiting again.

A few more questions.... There ammo prices , are they high ? I cant think of any way around having to use their ammo.

Other training facilities you can suggest in the Vegas Area ? How are Progressive Force Concepts ?

On

leadstorm
02-16-2012, 9:05 AM
Long story short: Get a hunting license and everyone will be fine.

As I read the law, it would not be illegal for you to posess, but it would be illegal for someone to sell/give/rent you guns or ammo unless you have a license. A lawyer may refute me on this...

Follow the bold parts below (from Title 18 USC, 922).

(d) It shall be unlawful for any person to sell or otherwise dispose
of any firearm or ammunition to any person knowing or having reasonable
cause to believe that such person--
(1) is under indictment for, or has been convicted in any court
of, a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one
year;
(2) is a fugitive from justice;
(3) is an unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled
substance (as defined in section 102 of the Controlled Substances
Act (21 U.S.C. 802));
(4) has been adjudicated as a mental defective or has been
committed to any mental institution;
(5) who, being an alien--
(A) is illegally or unlawfully in the United States; or
(B) except as provided in subsection (y)(2), has been
admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa (as that
term is defined in section 101(a)(26) of the Immigration and
Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1101(a)(26)));

(y) Provisions Relating to Aliens Admitted Under Nonimmigrant
Visas.--
(1) Definitions.--In this subsection--
(A) the term ``alien'' has the same meaning as in section
101(a)(3) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C.
1101(a)(3)); and
(B) the term ``nonimmigrant visa'' has the same meaning as
in section 101(a)(26) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8
U.S.C. 1101(a)(26)).

(2) Exceptions.--Subsections (d)(5)(B), (g)(5)(B), and
(s)(3)(B)(v)(II) do not apply to any alien who has been lawfully
admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa, if that
alien is-- (A) admitted to the United States for lawful hunting or
sporting purposes or is in possession of a hunting license or
permit lawfully issued in the United States;
(B) an official representative of a foreign government who
is--
(i) accredited to the United States Government or the
Government's mission to an international organization having
its headquarters in the United States; or
(ii) en route to or from another country to which that
alien is accredited;

(C) an official of a foreign government or a distinguished
foreign visitor who has been so designated by the Department of
State; or
(D) a foreign law enforcement officer of a friendly foreign
government entering the United States on official law
enforcement business.

a1c
02-16-2012, 9:14 AM
leadstorm is right.

As a non-immigrant (since you're just visiting), you NEED a hunter's license. A license from any US state will do.

A lot of ranges (especially in free states) are notoriously lax in that area, and rent to foreigners without hunter's licenses all the time, which is effectively illegal, but it's not like the Feds or the state police cares much.

However, if you were to be pulled over with ammo in your car, you could get in a world of trouble, especially now that Homeland Security is getting ridiculously paranoid. So get a hunter's license, and you're in the clear. Some US states will I believe actually issue one if you present your British hunter's license, but don't quote me on that, and do your research.

leadstorm
02-16-2012, 9:19 AM
However, if you were to be pulled over with ammo in your car, you could get in a world of trouble, especially now that Homeland Security is getting ridiculously paranoidNot to say that some un-informed LEO wouldn't flip out, but I don't think there's any law that the non-immigrant alien could actually break here. I think the only law that could be broken here is by the vendor/supplier of guns/ammo.

paul0660
02-16-2012, 9:21 AM
if you were to be pulled over with ammo in your car, you could get in a world of trouble,

It would be awkward, but it looks like possession and purchase is not illegal, like leadstorm just said.

a1c
02-16-2012, 9:24 AM
Not to say that some un-informed LEO wouldn't flip out, but I don't think there's any law that the non-immigrant alien could actually break here. I think the only law that could be broken here is by the vendor/supplier of guns/ammo.

Under the quoted federal law, you're right. But under California law, that would be a felony for him. Nevada? Not sure, but I suspect there aren't such statutes, so if the transportation of ammunition is limited to Nevada, he's fine. But if he crosses into California, he will NEED a hunter's license to be legal.

However, it is still ILLEGAL for a seller in any state to sell him ammunition. Most don't care and never ask for any ID (especially in free states). But the last thing he or the seller need is for ATF agents to be in the store, right as he is asking for boxes of ammo with a British accent. I know it seems far-fetched, but federal statutes are what they are.

In the current US climate, I would seriously recommend covering all bases when you're a non-citizen. It would be very easy for a traffic stop to turn into some drama, then you end up with the Feds involved even if no charges are ever brought because they need to check your status, that triggers a flag on your file, and pretty soon you're either on the no-fly list, or you get held and questioned in secondary every single time you get into the US. I know a couple of people like that, and it's a major PITA, especially when you have a connect flight within the US.

acegunnr
02-16-2012, 9:27 AM
I was at Front Sight earlier this month. They have a new on-site ammo vendor with reasonable prices:

http://www.stockpiledefense.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?display=home

There were also some guys parked with a truck selling ammo at the 160 turn-off to Front Sight.

leadstorm
02-16-2012, 9:30 AM
I do agree that it would be...uncomfortable...if a non-resident-alien were stopped with a rental car full of ammo headed towards the Vegas Strip and the LEO were to see the ammo.

Just shout, "Long Live the Queen!" and floor it :43:

paul0660
02-16-2012, 9:33 AM
But under California law,

If you have a chance, A1c, I would like that cite for my archives......the arcane ones ;)

a1c
02-16-2012, 9:39 AM
If you have a chance, A1c, I would like that cite for my archives......the arcane ones ;)

Oh, it's not arcane, we've had several threads in here about that very topic.

I'll check the Calguns Wiki and the PC for the relevant sections.

There is also a debate regarding the way one or two PC sections were written, as they seem to exclude non-US citizens when it comes to the legality of transporting firearms in a vehicle (probably an oversight - most related sections talk about "persons" or "individuals", but that one mentions "US citizens", and would make it impossible for a non-citizen to transport any firearm - even though it's legal for a non-citizen to hunt, for instance). Will look it up.

paul0660
02-16-2012, 9:41 AM
Oh, it's not arcane, we've had several threads in here about that very topic.

I'll check the Calguns Wiki and the PC for the relevant sections.

There is also a debate regarding the way one or two PC sections were written, as they seem to exclude non-US citizens when it comes to the legality of transporting firearms in a vehicle.

Thanks, I admit to being lazy this time.

asm777
02-16-2012, 9:48 AM
Maybe off-topic but about this...

As a Brit i obviously cannot purchase a handgun to use

There was a Brit in my Hunter Safety Course who was taking the class in order to purchase a firearm for when he's visiting the U.S.

Found an old thread where it seems that at least one person has also purchased firearms in the U.S. while not a U.S. citizen or green card holder (see post #6):
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=70732

Might be something to investigate a bit more if you're interested...

a1c
02-16-2012, 9:57 AM
Maybe off-topic but about this...



There was a Brit in my Hunter Safety Course who was taking the class in order to purchase a firearm for when he's visiting the U.S.

Found an old thread where it seems that at least one person has also purchased firearms in the U.S. while not a U.S. citizen or green card holder (see post #6):
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=70732

Might be something to investigate a bit more if you're interested...

You're citing a thread about a non-immigrant residing in the US.

Here our British friend is visiting under what I'm assuming is the visa waiver program. He has no place of residence in the US.

corcoraj2002
02-16-2012, 10:03 AM
Maybe off-topic but about this...



There was a Brit in my Hunter Safety Course who was taking the class in order to purchase a firearm for when he's visiting the U.S.

Found an old thread where it seems that at least one person has also purchased firearms in the U.S. while not a U.S. citizen or green card holder (see post #6):
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=70732

Might be something to investigate a bit more if you're interested...

I am a green card holder. In order to complete the DROS, as a non-citizen, you need to have an alien registration number (long number on the green card) you can not complete the DROS with out it. You used to be able to get them on a temp residence visa (H1 or L1)
but this seems to have changed as my friend was refused a shot gun from Triple A as he was here on a temp (5 year) resident H1 work based visa. They didn't even complete the DROS as he didn't have the alien registration number.

echobeach
02-16-2012, 10:10 AM
Thanks for the replies.

i think if i attend Front Sight again I will get them to store any ammo with my rental weapons at their facility and not carry back and forth each day.

Thanks for clarifying that for me.

a1c
02-16-2012, 10:11 AM
I am a green card holder. In order to complete the DROS, as a non-citizen, you need to have an alien registration number (long number on the green card) you can not complete the DROS with out it. You used to be able to get them on a temp residence visa (H1 or L1)
but this seems to have changed as my friend was refused a shot gun from Triple A as he was here on a temp (5 year) resident H1 work based visa. They didn't even complete the DROS as he didn't have the alien registration number.

Your friend on an H1b visa (or L1b, for that matter) can legally buy a firearm as long as he has a hunter's license.

The alien registration number will be the number on his I-94 slip that he got in his passport at his last entry. The date of entry needs to be at least 80 days before DROS (I'm assuming this is in California, which has a 10 days wait: 80 days of residence + 10 days of "cooling off period" = 90 days of residence).

A non-immigrant alien in possession of a hunter's license who can document 90 days of continuous residence (using immigration documents AND utility statements) is perfectly legal. I bought several guns that way before my green card. Most shops know how to deal with this, although I suspect your average Big 5 clerk probably won't. The law hasn't recently changed in the matter.