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View Full Version : AR15 AR 15 Bullet Button Cheater - $15 (Yreka)


VaderSpade
02-16-2012, 7:46 AM
This is a BAD idea;

http://redding.craigslist.org/spo/2824834303.html

Mesa Tactical
02-16-2012, 7:47 AM
Why? .22 case is used as a tool.

Rock6.3
02-16-2012, 7:51 AM
Why? .22 case is used as a tool.

Because it appears to be designed to remain in place, negating the intended purpose of the bullet button. The word "Cheater" in the description puts this product off limits for me.

VaderSpade
02-16-2012, 7:54 AM
Why? .22 case is used as a tool.

The ad claims "The casing is a friction fit" and shows it left in place. I think that's a bad idea????

jonc
02-16-2012, 7:57 AM
why not just use a 22lr or a 223 roind

Mesa Tactical
02-16-2012, 7:58 AM
The ad claims "The casing is a friction fit" and shows it left in place. I think that's a bad idea????

It's a friction fit in the case:

http://images.craigslist.org/5I15Kb5Jb3K93Mc3N1c1t70aba69a2c811f37.jpg

Leaving it in the bullet button cavity is a bad idea, but you could say that about any tool.

On the other hand, I do see your point: this photos is of a felony in progress:

http://images.craigslist.org/5I15La5Md3Ga3L73J5c1tf6dadc5d88661517.jpg

Arisaka
02-16-2012, 8:11 AM
derp

Intimid8tor
02-16-2012, 8:18 AM
Could be a featureless build in the pics making it not illegal to have taken the pic. Interesting design.

SanPedroShooter
02-16-2012, 8:29 AM
Its not 'tool' when its attached to the gun...

Why would you put a mag lock on a featurless gun? Thats the same sort of tricks those mag magnet *******s get up to. Its billed as a 'bullet button cheater'. How is this any different than a 'mag magnet' aka felony button?

Intimid8tor
02-16-2012, 8:36 AM
Its not 'tool' when its attached to the gun...

Why would you put a mag lock on a featurless gun? Its billed as a 'bullet button cheater'. How is this any differnet than a 'mag magnet' aka felony button?

It's not. I was merely pointing out the pic doesn't prove a felony, but I would be willing to bet the purchasers that don't understand the law will likely use it in a felonious way.

uyoga
02-16-2012, 8:46 AM
No real difference between the "magnetic" one and this one.

If they stay in place, they're not a tool; and therefore illegal to use in Kalyphornyia.

bwiese
02-16-2012, 9:29 AM
Because it appears to be designed to remain in place, negating the intended purpose of the bullet button. The word "Cheater" in the description puts this product off limits for me.


Correct. Any 'tool' should not be retained nor retainable by the gun or the maglock, thru friction, adhesives, magnetism, etc. Any 'tool' should 'fall away'.

We've already had one "MagMagnet" bust.

SilverTauron
02-16-2012, 9:39 AM
A rule of thumb that got me through a week in Illinois on 'questionable features':
"What would the cops do if I got caught with this right now? "

If you don't like the answer, don't try the work around.

edwardm
02-16-2012, 9:54 AM
Correct. Any 'tool' should not be retained nor retainable by the gun or the maglock, thru friction, adhesives, magnetism, etc. Any 'tool' should 'fall away'.

We've already had one "MagMagnet" bust.

Bill, do you take a similar stand on the "free state" tool:

https://www.blacktydetactical.com/istore/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=51

If so, I understand why, obviously. If not, curious to know how you distinguish one from the other.

VaderSpade
02-16-2012, 9:57 AM
I don’t see a problem with either IF they are ONLY used in a free state. BUT I see that BRIGHT RED button all too often at the range here in CA.

Baconator
02-16-2012, 10:00 AM
not worth the hassle, radlock ftw!

chris12
02-16-2012, 10:55 AM
Leaving it in the bullet button cavity is a bad idea, but you could say that about any tool.

On the other hand, I do see your point: this photos is of a felony in progress:

http://images.craigslist.org/5I15La5Md3Ga3L73J5c1tf6dadc5d88661517.jpg

Would it still be a felony if the tool was smaller (no friction fit) and just sitting there? So that the tool would fall out if turned over, but is currently attached by gravity.

CHS
02-16-2012, 11:19 AM
Bill, do you take a similar stand on the "free state" tool:

https://www.blacktydetactical.com/istore/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=51

If so, I understand why, obviously. If not, curious to know how you distinguish one from the other.

The real difference between what you posted and the magmagnet and the "cheater" the OP talks about is down to the marketing.

The magmagnet and this guy are marketing a felony.

The red bullet button wrench IS NOT sold as a "tool", it's sold specifically for installation/removal of bullet buttons and use for in free states. They are honest and up-front that you CANNOT use it inside California, and they even make it bright red so that you remember when it's in the gun and can remove it before heading back into California.

The magmagnet uses the "tool" language in the PC to call themselves a simple tool for dropping mags, when they full well know that's NOT what they are. Same with this 22 shell casing guy.

It's all about the marketing.

Market a felony, and you'll get a felony. Market a perfectly legal device to be used outside of the state, and no one bats an eye.

CHS
02-16-2012, 11:23 AM
Also with the red bullet button wrench, unless you actually go through the motions of screwing it into the bullet button and onto the magazine release, it will simply fall out of the gun.

This "cheater" and the magmagnet won't. As soon as you use them as a tool, they will stay put.

edwardm
02-16-2012, 12:04 PM
The real difference between what you posted and the magmagnet and the "cheater" the OP talks about is down to the marketing.

The magmagnet and this guy are marketing a felony.

The red bullet button wrench IS NOT sold as a "tool", it's sold specifically for installation/removal of bullet buttons and use for in free states. They are honest and up-front that you CANNOT use it inside California, and they even make it bright red so that you remember when it's in the gun and can remove it before heading back into California.

The magmagnet uses the "tool" language in the PC to call themselves a simple tool for dropping mags, when they full well know that's NOT what they are. Same with this 22 shell casing guy.

It's all about the marketing.

Market a felony, and you'll get a felony. Market a perfectly legal device to be used outside of the state, and no one bats an eye.


1. Not looking for a pissing match.

2. Given 1, this is like blaming the guy that makes glass 'tobacco' pipes for
*causing* Little Mr. Stoner to toke up. The pipe maker didn't
predispose the toker to light up. Causation is not present.

If the guy having a disclaimer on his "cheat" tool is all it would take to make folks happy, fine. Dumb, IMO, but fine. Stupid people are going to do what stupid want to do. I don't buy any of this crap about "enablers", regardless of the topic. We fundamentally differ on the matter, and that's fine.

What this comes down to for me, I think, is that I'm a law guy, not a PR guy. I have to convince judges and other attorneys, not marketing departments. Obviously our problems in CA come down to more than *just* law or *just* PR. So I understand and respect the concern.

bwiese
02-16-2012, 12:10 PM
The real difference between what you posted and the magmagnet and the "cheater" the OP talks about is down to the marketing.

The magmagnet and this guy are marketing a felony.

The red bullet button wrench IS NOT sold as a "tool", it's sold specifically for installation/removal of bullet buttons and use for in free states. They are honest and up-front that you CANNOT use it inside California, and they even make it bright red so that you remember when it's in the gun and can remove it before heading back into California.

The magmagnet uses the "tool" language in the PC to call themselves a simple tool for dropping mags, when they full well know that's NOT what they are. Same with this 22 shell casing guy.

It's all about the marketing.

Market a felony, and you'll get a felony. Market a perfectly legal device to be used outside of the state, and no one bats an eye.

^THIS.

bwiese
02-16-2012, 12:17 PM
I will also add this separate kinda-related caveat, and it's in bold for a reason.

DON'T HAVE A MAGLOCK DEVICE THAT CAN EASILY "CHANGE MODES" (i.e, switchable from 'tool required'
to 'tool not required'). This is the functional equivalent of the old Prince50 'coming loose'.

THERE IS DRAMA OVER THESE MATTERS ENTANGLED WITH THE SACTO LEO NONROSTERED SALE INVESTIGATION -
VS. GOOD PEOPLE WHO UNFORTUNATELY CONSENTED TO GIVE UP THEIR 4th AMEND. PROTECTIONS AND WHO
HAD COMPLIANT FIREARMS.

AGGRESSIVE LEOs IN RAID-LIKE SITUATIONS BEHAVE BRUSQUELY AND RAPIDLY, AND MAY NOT NOTICE STATUS
CHANGES DURING THEIR INVESTIGATION EVEN IF THEY CAUSED THEM (i.e., manufactured an AW themselves
even though the BB started in legit configuration). THE MANIPULATION IN FACT MIGHT BE DONE FROM AN
AGENT FROM A NON-CA AGENCY AND THEN THE GUN IS LATER EXAMINED BY A CA LEO, ADDING FURTHER
COMPLICATIONS.

DON'T USE A DEVICE THAT CAN HELP TESTIFY AGAINST YOU.

THE COPS ARE NOT GONNA UNINSTALL A BB AND REPLACE WITH A REGULAR CATCH, BUT A SPECIALTY 'DUAL MODE'
MAGLOCK THAT HAS EASY FUNCTIONALITY RESTORATION MAY END UP IN THE WRONG STATUS AND THAT IS THE
STATUS RECORDED ON THE CHARGING SHEET.

dsmoot
02-16-2012, 1:14 PM
I will also add this separate kinda-related caveat, and it's in bold for a reason.

DON'T HAVE A MAGLOCK DEVICE THAT CAN EASILY "CHANGE MODES" (i.e, switchable from 'tool required'
to 'tool not required').

Bill would you consider this to include the Raddlock? That requires one to unscrew the lock to be able to use it outside CA.

Ubermcoupe
02-16-2012, 1:23 PM
Bill would you consider this to include the Raddlock? That requires one to unscrew the lock to be able to use it outside CA.

Does the Raddlock have the potential to "change" functions (accidentally or otherwise) and end up in a non-tool required configuration, thus making it an AW... :yes:

CHS
02-16-2012, 1:42 PM
2. Given 1, this is like blaming the guy that makes glass 'tobacco' pipes for
*causing* Little Mr. Stoner to toke up. The pipe maker didn't
predispose the toker to light up. Causation is not present.


Except Magmagnet and this guy are purposefully misleading customers. It's not as simple as you say. It's more like someone selling a tobacco pipe and then claiming that it's a legal way for you to smoke weed.

The guys who market these "felony buttons" point to the law where it says it's ok to remove the magazine using a tool, then they say "see, this is a TOOL", which convinces people that it's perfectly legal to use one to drop a mag at the range with a standard bullet button.

The reality is, if the MagMagnet DIDNT have a magnet, it would be a perfectly legal and useful tool for dropping mags at the range with a bullet button. But with the magnet, this "tool" instantly sticks to the steel of the magazine catch and becomes a normal magazine release tool.

They're selling what they believe is a loophole in the "tool" language of the law, when in reality they are selling felonies.

edwardm
02-16-2012, 2:10 PM
Except Magmagnet and this guy are purposefully misleading customers. It's not as simple as you say. It's more like someone selling a tobacco pipe and then claiming that it's a legal way for you to smoke weed.

The guys who market these "felony buttons" point to the law where it says it's ok to remove the magazine using a tool, then they say "see, this is a TOOL", which convinces people that it's perfectly legal to use one to drop a mag at the range with a standard bullet button.

The reality is, if the MagMagnet DIDNT have a magnet, it would be a perfectly legal and useful tool for dropping mags at the range with a bullet button. But with the magnet, this "tool" instantly sticks to the steel of the magazine catch and becomes a normal magazine release tool.

They're selling what they believe is a loophole in the "tool" language of the law, when in reality they are selling felonies.

As someone who tries to practice personal responsibility and accountability, I'm not buying into this.

I could just as easily buy a lower, an LPK from any vendor, and install the standard magazine release. And I see your point as being "they are selling something that will lead to the committing of a felony and are actively encouraging such by their misinterpretation or twisting of the law" So is any LPK vendor, or even the folks that ship BB's with the 'free state' tool, unless they have a reasonable disclaimer/warning on their product or marketing literature. I know the last LPK kit I bought had no such warning for residents of California.

And again all that amounts to is a question of marketing. Do the car commercials that show some 'professional driver on closed course' hauling ballz amount to the marketing of a reckless driving violation? Or does the tiny script at the bottom of the screen, which almost no one bothers to see or care about, make it all OK and good?

I suggest we are going to disagree until the cows come home, and continuing to do so probably won't help anyone. What will help is for this thread to stick around for n00bs that come searching along. In the end, tool attachment means you've manufactured an AW - on that much, we do agree. The finer points of what this means under various circumstances will ultimately play out in a court of law and/or a DA's office, not on these forums.

Thank you, and thanks to Bill for the counterpoints. I do sincerely respect them, and I know lots of intelligence rests behind them.

Nick Justice
02-16-2012, 2:20 PM
We need to get AWB and the mag limit repealed or struck down so we can leave all this nonsense behind.

soopafly
02-16-2012, 2:33 PM
We need to get AWB and the mag limit repealed or struck down so we can leave all this nonsense behind.

The process was started back in May of 2011:
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=436300

You can help it along by donating here:
http://calgunsfoundation.org/donate.html

CHS
02-16-2012, 2:41 PM
As someone who tries to practice personal responsibility and accountability, I'm not buying into this.

I really don't understand why you're having such a hard time with this concept.

MagMagnet:

A company that actively deceives their customers into believing a product is legal for use in CA, leading to felonies.


Everyone else:

Doesn't do the above.


Easier to understand my point now? It's not just about products that may or may not be illegal depending on use.

stix213
02-16-2012, 2:55 PM
As someone who tries to practice personal responsibility and accountability, I'm not buying into this.


Take a look at the advertising Mag Magnet is still using. This was up at the last gun show in Daily City just recently.

http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i123/ptoguy2002/82c39815.jpg

The Californian's Bullet Button Tool!

They are purposely deceiving customers into thinking their product works as a tool for legal purposes with their advertising. Picture of an AR with features in the ad and everything. I really don't understand how they have gotten away with this for so long.

soopafly
02-16-2012, 2:58 PM
^^^and right next to the tannernite booth...LOL

bartender, I would like a shot of felony...make that a double!

NorCalDustin
02-16-2012, 5:08 PM
I will also add this separate kinda-related caveat, and it's in bold for a reason.

DON'T HAVE A MAGLOCK DEVICE THAT CAN EASILY "CHANGE MODES" (i.e, switchable from 'tool required'
to 'tool not required'). This is the functional equivalent of the old Prince50 'coming loose'.

THERE IS DRAMA OVER THESE MATTERS ENTANGLED WITH THE SACTO LEO NONROSTERED SALE INVESTIGATION -
VS. GOOD PEOPLE WHO UNFORTUNATELY CONSENTED TO GIVE UP THEIR 4th AMEND. PROTECTIONS AND WHO
HAD COMPLIANT FIREARMS.

AGGRESSIVE LEOs IN RAID-LIKE SITUATIONS BEHAVE BRUSQUELY AND RAPIDLY, AND MAY NOT NOTICE STATUS
CHANGES DURING THEIR INVESTIGATION EVEN IF THEY CAUSED THEM (i.e., manufactured an AW themselves
even though the BB started in legit configuration). THE MANIPULATION IN FACT MIGHT BE DONE FROM AN
AGENT FROM A NON-CA AGENCY AND THEN THE GUN IS LATER EXAMINED BY A CA LEO, ADDING FURTHER
COMPLICATIONS.

DON'T USE A DEVICE THAT CAN HELP TESTIFY AGAINST YOU.

THE COPS ARE NOT GONNA UNINSTALL A BB AND REPLACE WITH A REGULAR CATCH, BUT A SPECIALTY 'DUAL MODE'
MAGLOCK THAT HAS EASY FUNCTIONALITY RESTORATION MAY END UP IN THE WRONG STATUS AND THAT IS THE
STATUS RECORDED ON THE CHARGING SHEET.



You could make that argument for any mag lock then... Prince50 can come loose... Raddlock can come loose and go into a dual mode... What mag locking device do you think people should be using then?

edwardm
02-16-2012, 5:10 PM
I really don't understand why you're having such a hard time with this concept.

MagMagnet:

A company that actively deceives their customers into believing a product is legal for use in CA, leading to felonies.


Everyone else:

Doesn't do the above.


Easier to understand my point now? It's not just about products that may or may not be illegal depending on use.

I understood your point from the start and my response is still, "so what"?

In the end, you want something to not happen. OK, fine. What are you ultimately going to do about it? The guy is an a-hole. He's been talked to, he's been warned, he'd been educated. He persists.

Should we get CalDOJ to SWAT him and snag his customer list so we can go on a mass-mailing campaign?

It's not that I don't or didn't understand you. It's that I think all the hand-wringing is of no value.

CHS
02-16-2012, 5:48 PM
You could make that argument for any mag lock then... Prince50 can come loose... Raddlock can come loose and go into a dual mode... What mag locking device do you think people should be using then?

Why not a standard bullet button? That's what I use. You can't make them act as a standard magazine release without actually adding pieces to them that aren't there by default. And if you release the castle nut enough so that you can try using it as a button, the whole assembly will fall apart.

The standard bullet button works great, is readily convertible to free-state uses, and can't get you screwed like purpose-built convertible mag locks.

Wherryj
02-16-2012, 5:53 PM
Could be a featureless build in the pics making it not illegal to have taken the pic. Interesting design.

The picture also doesn't prove that the rifle was ever located in CA. That being said it is a horrible idea. If someone in CA were to use this, it would most likely result in an unintentional felony.

bwiese
02-16-2012, 5:59 PM
Bill would you consider this to include the Raddlock? That requires one to unscrew the lock to be able to use it outside CA.

I recall we had a Raddlock case with some drama some time ago, but I believe certain situations were overlooked.

Remember that LE can enter your house for a variety of reasons without a warrant and they WILL look around. Combine that with youngerer Asian guys trained to "respect authority" and surrendering their 4A rights and you have a problem when the LEOs start mucking about with a mag catch that "has modes".

bwiese
02-16-2012, 6:02 PM
You could make that argument for any mag lock then... Prince50 can come loose... Raddlock can come loose and go into a dual mode... What mag locking device do you think people should be using then?

We've repeatedly warned about the original Prince50 esp after Chuck Michel's discussions with some DAs.

That was a defendable 'comfort level' thing but the easy-loosening drama has caused issues before, esp since it was non-latching.

Since I have reg'd AWs and don't need maglocks I haven't looked into details of who-has-what now, but probably have to review.

I would use a straight BulletButton-style maglock that takes effort to uninstall and doesn't have an easy "free state" mode.


The standard bullet button works great, is readily convertible to free-state uses, and
can't get you screwed like purpose-built convertible mag locks.

The man speaketh correctly. I know he knows his products.

IVC
02-16-2012, 7:32 PM
As someone who tries to practice personal responsibility and accountability, I'm not buying into this.

Call it "false/deceptive advertising". Nothing to do with personal responsibility.

Use one and you are on the hook for consequences whether advertising was true or false - that is clearly the "personal responsibility" part. Equally well, sell something under false pretense and you are on the hook for the claims you made - this is true for bullet button tools as well as for penis enlargers.

SoCal Gunner
02-16-2012, 8:01 PM
Talk about leading a horse to water...

I just want to take a minute to thank BWiese and CHS for sharing their knowledge.

If you don't want to drink it, fine, but don't piss in it.

CSACANNONEER
02-16-2012, 8:49 PM
I've still got a stripped lower with a P50 lock and the mag is also held in with black RTV. Personally, I don't see how any DA could have an issue with it.

CHS
02-16-2012, 9:03 PM
I've still got a stripped lower with a P50 lock and the mag is also held in with black RTV. Personally, I don't see how any DA could have an issue with it.

Oh dear god..... A Vulcan?!??

CSACANNONEER
02-16-2012, 9:55 PM
Oh dear god..... A Vulcan?!??

I do have a virgin Vulcan but, the one in question isnt it. Although, I used the Vulcan letter as my guide when I put the mag in back in the super early days of OLLs.

NorCalAthlete
02-16-2012, 11:00 PM
Question sorta related -

If I have a lower that's not entirely stripped, but has no buffer tube or anything on it yet, do I still need a bullet button? I'm planning on going featureless, but until the hammerhead grip is on it do I need to go full California on it?

bwiese
02-16-2012, 11:06 PM
Question sorta related -

If I have a lower that's not entirely stripped, but has no buffer tube or anything on it yet, do I still need a bullet button? I'm planning on going featureless, but until the hammerhead grip is on it do I need to go full California on it?

For the AR design, the lower - even with pistol grip and telestock - is neither semiauto, nor centerfire, nor arguably a rifle.

That's the purely technically correct answer.

However I'd recommend that if you have an upper around and such a lower that you in fact have a BulletButton installed. If LEs enter your house and "put the rifle together" it's their word vs your word without a lot of fighting and we have seen some related conduct in Sacto area due to the foundering Sacto LEO investigation, where LE investigators are aggressively 'visiting' lawful PPT purchasers.

NorCalDustin
02-16-2012, 11:23 PM
Why not a standard bullet button? That's what I use. You can't make them act as a standard magazine release without actually adding pieces to them that aren't there by default. And if you release the castle nut enough so that you can try using it as a button, the whole assembly will fall apart.

The standard bullet button works great, is readily convertible to free-state uses, and can't get you screwed like purpose-built convertible mag locks.
Thats interesting... I was under the impression that it didn't just fall apart.

Hmmm.. Good to know.

NorCalAthlete
02-16-2012, 11:25 PM
For the AR design, the lower - even with pistol grip and telestock - is neither semiauto, nor centerfire, nor arguably a rifle.

That's the purely technically correct answer.

However I'd recommend that if you have an upper around and such a lower that you in fact have a BulletButton installed. If LEs enter your house and "put the rifle together" it's their word vs your word without a lot of fighting and we have seen some related conduct in Sacto area due to the foundering Sacto LEO investigation, where LE investigators are aggressively 'visiting' lawful PPT purchasers.

Point taken. Fortunately, at the moment there is no "free" upper anywhere in my household (all are attached to other lowers in complete rifles). And after reading my own post I went ahead and put the hammerhead grip on it anyway, though I still have no buffer tube or any other spare parts around to "complete" the lower let alone the whole rifle. Haven't purchased a bullet button for this lower as I'm doing a featureless build...though I suppose it's a cheap part to have an extra of on hand. http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/images/smilies/thumbup.gif

Markinsac
02-16-2012, 11:25 PM
This is a BAD idea;

http://redding.craigslist.org/spo/2824834303.html

The listing has been "flagged for removal" on the site.

Kavey
02-17-2012, 3:19 AM
I've scanned this thread and so far have not seen the magic word…..LOCTITE!

Your "basic" standard Bullet Button usually comes with directions that recommend the use of Loctite. It's good advice.

luckystrike
02-17-2012, 1:53 PM
the P50 is fine. the BB is fine. the P50 is "free-stated" just as easily as you drop a mag magnet on a BB. with how much ease it takes to remove/convert either is irrelevant.

Turbinator
02-18-2012, 9:43 AM
I've scanned this thread and so far have not seen the magic word…..LOCTITE!

Your "basic" standard Bullet Button usually comes with directions that recommend the use of Loctite. It's good advice.

Excellent idea.

Turby

Moonshine
02-18-2012, 4:58 PM
Bullet button has case law behind it and the doj letter and dealers sell them. Without this level of protection you will be offering up yourself for new case law. That's my opinion.

bwiese
02-18-2012, 5:12 PM
Bullet button has case law behind it and the doj letter and dealers sell them. Without this level of protection you will be offering up yourself for new case law.

No, please don't phrase things that way unless you know what you are talking about.



there is really no 'case law' because legit BB cases are dismissed everytime we work 'em.
We think we would have heard of a BB vs AW case that went sideways otherwise and would
be actively involved. [There's always a chance some dude plead out to tack-on AW charges
to diminish a sentence on a whole mulitplicity of charges mixing gun and non-gun stuff.]

Furthermore, trial court cases are not published/cited for other cases. [They're available thru
a record-seeking process.] CGF's push is to just drive the 'rumor mill'/informal record of success
so a DA walks away.
.
BBs will never get to appellate stage, just because we jump on everything we can find and stop
'em then & there.
.
We have formal support for BBs simply because we have a true governmental definition of 'detachable
magazine' (and thus, by direct extension, what is *not* a detachable magazine.
.
Yes, the DOJ has stated, on the record, in ongoing Federal court testimony/records that a BB'd (OLL)
AR is not an AW.
. . .∫∫√
Yes, DOJ expert criminalists from their Forensic group (entirely separate from DOJ BoF) have reviewed
BB'd OLL guns in various matters and determined non-AW status. Such guns were returned to individuals
thru the LEGR process. DOJ BoF staffers themselves have returned BB'd guns to individuals too.
.
Despite all the above, to say it's "case law" is entirely incorrect.

CHS
02-18-2012, 6:03 PM
Despite all the above, to say it's "case law" is entirely incorrect.


Bill, is it at least fair to call it "legal precedent"?

bwiese
02-19-2012, 12:30 PM
Bill, is it at least fair to call it "legal precedent"?

I'd regard 'precedent' as somthing handed down from a Supreme Ct.
Case law at least is held at something stronger than a trial court level.

What we do have is a body of support with which we can stop, defer or win anything we need and with which we can generate continual oppositional pressure. It's not like we're riding on a grey area, we have formal regulatory support.

BigDogatPlay
02-19-2012, 8:05 PM
I just want to take a minute to thank BWiese and CHS for sharing their knowledge.

+1000...

I have the red wrench and it stays locked away in the tool box, only to come out if I need to attach a BB on another lower, or to enjoy pure goodness when travelling / shooting in free states.