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mod1217
02-15-2012, 11:01 PM
Hi guys I got a question for you

I usually take my SUV when going to the range specially if I'm carrying my rifles, I do put my rifles behind the back seat in the cargo area and do lock my bags with a padlock like what I do with my handguns. Now my question are.

First, if a LEO see the rifle bags at the back of my SUV is that enough grounds for him to search my vehicle?

Second question, Is hiding the rifle bags under a blanket bad and more prone to being search if spotted?

Third and final question is how many is too many rifle to carry in one vehicle? I usually carry 6 at a time when going to the range.

aermotor
02-15-2012, 11:02 PM
1: Yes (ETA: They will do what they want regardless of the law. Legally they cannot, but more often then not, I'm banking on "step out of the car sir and put your hards on your head" You will be detained so they can check it.)
2: No
3: Does not matter

If they are under a blanket, how the heck can they assume the are guns etc? Tell them to pound sand and move along. Know your rights and how to stick up for them. Better to be safe than sorry and always just cover them up to avoid any contact with the law. The same dude was recently arrested TWICE for having an "Assault Weapon" when it was just an M1A (court case no pending on ridiculous CA AWB). It's your business and cops need to stay the F out. Don't speed. Obey traffic laws. Cover them up. Stay safe.

SVT-40
02-15-2012, 11:05 PM
Not the right forum for your questions. As to what a officer "might" do, or what grounds he might have would only be conjecture.

So don't sweat the small stuff and keep your vehicle equipped legally and don't drive like a fool.

Common sense says not to drive around with any firearms showing so a blanket is a good idea.

As to how many rifles can you carry?? How big is your vehicle?;)




If they are under a blanket, how the heck can they assume the are guns etc? Tell them to pound sand and move along. Know your rights and how to stick up for them. Better to be safe than sorry and always just cover them up to avoid any contact with the law. The same dude was recently arrested TWICE for having an "Assault Weapon" when it was just an M1A (court case no pending on ridiculous CA AWB). It's your business and cops need to stay the F out. Don't speed. Obey traffic laws. Cover them up. Stay safe.

Ignore the poorly thought out advice in bold above. That's a sure way to get yourself into a situation where keeping ones cool you could easily avoid.

mod1217
02-15-2012, 11:10 PM
Thank you for help answer guys and sorry for posting it here. Please moderator just move it to the proper forum

PrimerDust360
02-15-2012, 11:40 PM
Driving a vehicle without a separate trunk? When you're pulled over if your back windows are tinted roll them down so the officer knows there is nothing in the back of the vehicle that poses a threat. If you're transporting a firearm the case is locked, right? keep your hands on the wheel and inform the officer that there is a properly secured rifle in a locked case in the back of the car/truck/suv. If you're polite and don't make sudden moves for your wallet you'll be just fine.

NorCalK9.com
02-16-2012, 12:13 AM
Just dont get pulled over! Lol
Also the rear of the suv is good place for rifles.
question....
Do long guns HAVE to be locked while in transport? Heck I drive sometimes w a mag in my center console and rifle behind my seat when I go to richmond and oakland. Ive even been pulled over and officer blatantly saw the ak in back seat, maybe he didnt say anything cause he pulled me over to talk about his k9.
But either way id like to know the rule on this

Librarian
02-16-2012, 12:38 AM
Note that this is becoming an FAQ.

See also this current thread - http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=534853

Mesa Tactical
02-16-2012, 8:03 AM
Driving a vehicle without a separate trunk? When you're pulled over if your back windows are tinted roll them down so the officer knows there is nothing in the back of the vehicle that poses a threat. If you're transporting a firearm the case is locked, right? keep your hands on the wheel and inform the officer that there is a properly secured rifle in a locked case in the back of the car/truck/suv. If you're polite and don't make sudden moves for your wallet you'll be just fine.

WTF?

Maestro Pistolero
02-16-2012, 8:29 AM
Driving a vehicle without a separate trunk? When you're pulled over if your back windows are tinted roll them down so the officer knows there is nothing in the back of the vehicle that poses a threat. If you're transporting a firearm the case is locked, right? keep your hands on the wheel and inform the officer that there is a properly secured rifle in a locked case in the back of the car/truck/suv. If you're polite and don't make sudden moves for your wallet you'll be just fine.

Negative, primer dust. You must be new here. Do not inform. In fact, make sure they are hidden, and LIE. It's not illegal to lie unless it's a federal agent.

Army
02-16-2012, 8:34 AM
Driving a vehicle without a separate trunk? When you're pulled over if your back windows are tinted roll them down so the officer knows there is nothing in the back of the vehicle that poses a threat. If you're transporting a firearm the case is locked, right? keep your hands on the wheel and inform the officer that there is a properly secured rifle in a locked case in the back of the car/truck/suv. If you're polite and don't make sudden moves for your wallet you'll be just fine.
Ummmm....no.

If you are pulled over for a tail light out, that is all the officer can investigate for. HOWEVER! Should the LEO see a container that resembles a gun case, he has the right to inspect ONLY THE CASE CONTENTS for a loaded weapon. He does NOT have the right to flip your vehicle without a search warrant....and you have the right to tell him to get one if he is so inclined.

You are under NO OBLIGATION to reveal the contents of your vehicle (smart to inform the LEO if you are CCW though, just to cut down the BS time after he calls in your plates):

"Sir, there is nothing illegal in my vehicle", is the only response you should utter, if anything, to the LEO question of "What's in your backseat?". Be polite, be cooperative, be firm in your rights....then SHUT UP!!

jimh
02-16-2012, 8:39 AM
calling in your plates does not trigger a ccw alert

Sniper3142
02-16-2012, 8:42 AM
Lots of FAIL in this thread so far! :(

First, aermotor is wrong IMHO.
Having a firearm case inside a vehicle DOES NOT give any cop PC or RS to Search the vehicle.

Second, PrimerDust360 has given some Very Bad advice.
There is NO REASON to roll down any window other than the drivers. Making the cop "feel safer" isn't a citizens job, nor is it a requirement. And Mesa Tactical and Maestro Pistolero said and implied, there is NO REQUIREMENT to notify a cop that there are firearms inside a vehicle. In fact, what aermotor suggested is some of the WORSE advice I've heard.

BTW, a firearm case DOES NOT give cops PC or RS to search. They can check to ensure a firearm is being transported correctly. But a firearm case is NOT a firearm. If they ask if a weapon is inside the case and you answer yes, THEN they can check that case & weapon.

ewarmour
02-16-2012, 8:47 AM
Ummmm....no.

If you are pulled over for a tail light out, that is all the officer can investigate for. HOWEVER! Should the LEO see a container that resembles a gun case, he has the AUTHORITY to inspect ONLY THE CASE CONTENTS for a loaded weapon. He does NOT have the right to flip your vehicle without a search warrant....and you have the right to tell him to get one if he is so inclined.


Fixed that for ya.

sandman21
02-16-2012, 8:49 AM
1: Yes
2: No
3: Does not matter

If they are under a blanket, how the heck can they assume the are guns etc? Tell them to pound sand and move along. Know your rights and how to stick up for them. Better to be safe than sorry and always just cover them up to avoid any contact with the law. The same dude was recently arrested TWICE for having an "Assault Weapon" when it was just an M1A (court case no pending on ridiculous CA AWB). It's your business and cops need to stay the F out. Don't speed. Obey traffic laws. Cover them up. Stay safe.

Answer 1 is incorrect

We hold that the district court erred in finding that the
case in dispute is identifiable as a gun case based on its outward
appearance alone, and in applying the “single-purpose
container” exception to uphold the warrantless search of the
case. (http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-9th-circuit/1369451.html)

SilverTauron
02-16-2012, 9:04 AM
On my last occasion in Illinois I transported my range guns locked, unloaded, in a small case, with trigger locks installed and inside of a larger hard case underneath items inside of a locked trunk.

Between the general attitudes of some lawmen and the court system in gun-regulation heavy places a firearm owner should take EVERY precaution possible to avoid detainment, jail, and prosecution. You might be correct vis a vis the specific letter of the law, but its gonna be your money paying the attorney to prove it. Meanwhile you will have an arrest on your record and your guns will be in the custody of the arresting agency.

Storing firearms unlocked and in plain sight may be legal,but its an invitation to trouble in gun-unfriendly areas. This is not merely from law enforcement either, as shady characters who see a rifle in your vehicle may decide to target it for "community asset redistribution".

Falstaff
02-16-2012, 9:10 AM
Although armotor may be wrong about the legal technicality; the de facto situation is this: If the average cop sees a gun case in a car on traffic stop he is going to search it. They dont give a **** about any supreme court case law, the 4th amendment or any other distraction. When they see guns or evidence of guns the felony lottery bells start ringing and they start salivating. I'm sure there are exceptions to the rule, but let's all just be honest here about how these encounters usually go...

Now, After skimming that findlaw piece I'm still not sure if a gun case enjoys 4th amendment protection or not? Cliff's notes?

Decoligny
02-16-2012, 9:17 AM
Ummmm....no.

If you are pulled over for a tail light out, that is all the officer can investigate for. HOWEVER! Should the LEO see a container that resembles a gun case, he has the right to inspect ONLY THE CASE CONTENTS for a loaded weapon. He does NOT have the right to flip your vehicle without a search warrant....and you have the right to tell him to get one if he is so inclined.

You are under NO OBLIGATION to reveal the contents of your vehicle (smart to inform the LEO if you are CCW though, just to cut down the BS time after he calls in your plates):

"Sir, there is nothing illegal in my vehicle", is the only response you should utter, if anything, to the LEO question of "What's in your backseat?". Be polite, be cooperative, be firm in your rights....then SHUT UP!!

BS ALERT.

I know people who have rifle cases, and I know people who have guitar cases, and I have trouble telling the two apart. If you really want to mess with the officer's head, either slap a "COLT AR-15" sticker on a locked guitar case with a guitar in it, or conversly, slap a "Gibson Les Paul" sticker on your locked rifle case.

A police officer cannot legally leap to the conclusion that because you have a gun case, that it currently contains a gun. Therefore, unless you tell him that there is a gun in the case, he can still go pound sand.

If you have a case, keep it locked.

If a cop demands that you unlock it, refuse to do so without a warrant.

If the cop breaks open the case, call CGN.

sandman21
02-16-2012, 9:23 AM
Although armotor may be wrong about the legal technicality; the de facto situation is this: If the average cop sees a gun case in a car on traffic stop he is going to search it. They dont give a **** about any supreme court case law, the 4th amendment or any other distraction. When they see guns or evidence of guns the felony lottery bells start ringing and they start salivating. I'm sure there are exceptions to the rule, but let's all just be honest here about how these encounters usually go...

Now, After skimming that findlaw piece I'm still not sure if a gun case enjoys 4th amendment protection or not? Cliff's notes?

Because the avg. person does not know that a Bushmaster hard case is a gun case, it does not fall under the “single purpose container” exception. It enjoys 4A protections.

Best thing to do is record the encounter, file a compliant or contact CGF.

SilverTauron
02-16-2012, 9:36 AM
Because the avg. person does not know that a Bushmaster hard case is a gun case, it does not fall under the “single purpose container” exception. It enjoys 4A protections.

Best thing to do is record the encounter, file a compliant or contact CGF.

I don't doubt that what you state is accurate legally.


That said, the reality of that kind of culture is that if a LEO sees anything that looks like a gun case,you the owner will be removed from the vehicle and he will make up some flimsy excuse for probable cause to justify the search.

"Ive never seen a Gibson Guitar Case that was made by Uncle Mikes, so that was my probable cause to conduct a 401e check your honor."

And that's if the officer is lazy. If the officer is sharp he'll be the nicest guy or gal you've ever known. Once the formalities are down he or she will ask what concert you're playing at-that's a guitar case in the back , right?

You can lie,but police are lied to so often they can smell BS from three states away. You would too if every person you talked to lied to your face for 8 hours or more a day. To wit, officers don't like being deceived any more than someone else, and they've got the legal power to make live expensive and miserable for you on only their word. Also losing your credibility won't look good in court when your 'complaint' is filed.

Tell the truth, submit to a search and you might be allowed on your way without much trouble. Or they could make up a BS reason and seize your collection.

Best thing to do is drive the speed limit,ensure all your lights work and there are no cracks in the windshield, and to make certain *your friends are not in legal trouble*. Having your collection seized because a family member neglected to mention that they got a felony years ago would really suck, as that nearly happened to me once.

mud99
02-16-2012, 9:38 AM
You should do what I do and keep an unlocked ruger case on the front seat with a copy of the constitution in it. Ron Paul sells a nice pocket sized version.

If you are ever pulled over and the officer asks what is in the case, tell him "nothing but the second amendment!"

However, when I go to the range I take that out of the truck and put the guns under the bed cover of my truck, both for LEO and theft reasons

The only time I would leave a gun case in view is when you have no guns in it.

Decoligny
02-16-2012, 10:03 AM
You should do what I do and keep an unlocked ruger case on the front seat with a copy of the constitution in it. Ron Paul sells a nice pocket sized version.

If you are ever pulled over and the officer asks what is in the case, tell him "nothing but the second amendment!"

However, when I go to the range I take that out of the truck and put the guns under the bed cover of my truck, both for LEO and theft reasons

The only time I would leave a gun case in view is when you have no guns in it.

I like the idea of keeping a sandwich in an unlocked pistol case. When the officer asks what's in it, you reply, "Something to keep me from being too weak!"

That's when a video recording is needed. When he asks to look in the case, you refuse. When he violates your 4th amendment rights, and only finds a sandwich, you have cause to file a complaint at the very least.

CAHighSierra
02-16-2012, 10:07 AM
So if I get stopped for a tail light and the LEO ask's if I have any firearms in the car and I do, I am supposed to lie and say no? How is that legal? Sorry for the noobish question.

Jason P
02-16-2012, 10:26 AM
Driving a vehicle without a separate trunk? When you're pulled over if your back windows are tinted roll them down so the officer knows there is nothing in the back of the vehicle that poses a threat. If you're transporting a firearm the case is locked, right? keep your hands on the wheel and inform the officer that there is a properly secured rifle in a locked case in the back of the car/truck/suv. If you're polite and don't make sudden moves for your wallet you'll be just fine.

ROFL.... Fail. Cover your stuff, don't say anything except "here is my license, proof of insurance and registration" and "thank you, goodbye". You're under no obligation to notify anyone of anything.

Is the officer required to notify you if he is an @ss who believes the presence of a firearm makes you a threat to national security. Of course not, so don't be volunteering information untill you speak with an attorney.

Remember, just because a charge is BS doesn't mean you have the money/means to fight it and come out unscathed...

Decoligny
02-16-2012, 10:45 AM
So if I get stopped for a tail light and the LEO ask's if I have any firearms in the car and I do, I am supposed to lie and say no? How is that legal? Sorry for the noobish question.

Because there is no law against it.

The closest they can come to in the PC is "interfering with a criminal investigation".

A traffic stop for an equipment violation is just that, a violation, not a crime, therefore there is no criminal investigation to be interfering with.

If it happens to be a Federal Officer of any sort that stops you, that is a different ball of wax altogether. It IS ILLEGAL to lie to a federal law enforcement officer. So, if a National Park Ranger pulls you over and asks "Are there any firearms in the vehicle?", if you answer, it had better be the truth.

NorCalK9.com
02-16-2012, 10:47 AM
@jasonP lmao I like that one, dont know if its rite or not but sure do like it lol

BusBoy
02-16-2012, 10:53 AM
I like the idea of keeping a sandwich in an unlocked pistol case. When the officer asks what's in it, you reply, "Something to keep me from being too weak!"

That's when a video recording is needed. When he asks to look in the case, you refuse. When he violates your 4th amendment rights, and only finds a sandwich, you have cause to file a complaint at the very least.

/\ THIS /\ Rockin my Kimber lunch pail every now and then. :43:

Jason_2111
02-16-2012, 10:54 AM
... so don't be volunteering information untill you speak with an attorney.

Remember, just because a charge is BS doesn't mean you have the money/means to fight it and come out unscathed...

+1 :)

spalterego
02-16-2012, 10:54 AM
As you can see from the thread there is a difference between what the law requires and/or prohibits and how the real world works. You have to choose how to navigate between the two and how you want to behave.


In California, it is not purely a matter of Constitutional law/Reasonably Articulable Suspicion that a crime has occurred. A particular California Statute PC 12031 specifically gives police the authority to inspect firearms to determine if they are loaded. Thus, if the officer sees a Firearm (on your person, or in your car) the officer has, under California statutory law, the power to compel a search of the firearm to see if it is loaded. Refusal to allow the Officer to inspect the Firearm is itself a violation of the statute.

There is some case law indicating that the Officer must have RAS that a firearm exists to compel such a search. Either by seeing the firearm itself or something else that is equivalent. Since many different objects can be placed into a closed box, including gun cases, a Court has held that merely seeing a closed gun box does not justify an officer in believing that a gun is present and compelling a search to determine if the gun is loaded.

However, what a court might decide 2 years later might not deter a LEO from "forcing" you to allow an inspection of the gun case and gun to determine if it is loaded. If the LEO insists he is going to open up the case and inspect you have a choice. You can say go ahead and break open the case b/c I am not giving you the key or combo, or you can give up the key/combo but make it very clear you are doing so under coercion and NOT consenting to the search. A recording would be very handy in that case.

As to "hiding" the firearms under a blanket or something. I thank that is a very good idea both for practical anti-theft reasons as well as for avoiding unwanted LEO scrutiny. I don't really know if having a blanket or rug obviously covering something in the back is likely to provoke suspicion or not. Technically, this should NOT (absent something more like an anonymous tip) create RAS permitting the officer to look under the blanket but police are very good at fabricating RAS that courts are willing to accept at face value in court.

As to how many is too many, there is no legal limit to how many firearms you may transport although there is a practical limit. Additionally, if you were transporting some ridiculous number I am confident that at some point the sheer number would raise LEO suspicions and result in a further search, whether legally justified or not.

Last, as to what to say to the police. I do not believe that lying to local police about the presence of firearms in such an encounter would be illegal. Lying to federal LEO is illegal under any circumstances I believe. 18 U.S.C. §1001. California has no equivalent statute, however if you lie about it I don't know if/when that could give rise to an obstruction of justice type charge.

I would never suggest that you lie. That never looks good later on. I would advise that you either refuse to answer or give an obfuscating answer such as "I have nothing illegal in the car/truck" etc. And just keep repeating that if the officer keeps on pressing you about firearms.

The one thing that bothers my about saying "if have nothing illegal in the car" is that officers do have legitimate safety concerns about weapons, in addition to their fishing expedition questions.

I might be willing to expand my answer to say "I have no firearms within arms reach or easily accessible to me" to specifically address LEO concern about arms accessible to the driver that could be used against the officer.

What do you guys think about that?

Nick Justice
02-16-2012, 10:54 AM
Answer 1 is incorrect

We hold that the district court erred in finding that the
case in dispute is identifiable as a gun case based on its outward
appearance alone, and in applying the “single-purpose
container” exception to uphold the warrantless search of the
case. (http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-9th-circuit/1369451.html)

Yup: US v. GUST (405 F.3d 797) good law re searches. But see United States v. Banks, 514 F.3d 769. The gun case that Banks possessed had “Pheonix Arms” and “Bushmaster” logos on it, thus indicating that there was a greater likelihood that the case contained a gun. The search was upheld

Arondos
02-16-2012, 10:56 AM
I drive a hatchback, two seater. So some creative work is required.

Handguns go in a gym bag and the zippers get locked together. I make sure it is sitting on the passenger floor with the lock towards the firewall and that it has a pair of shorts and t-shirt (rags) in it. If asked "There are clothes in the bag."

Long gun is a pain. Only one I own is an M-1. Hard case from CMP is big enough the only way to transport it is sitting in the passenger seat. It gets belted in and has a lock on it. Tie wrapped to the lock is a business card from Davis and associates.

IVC
02-16-2012, 11:10 AM
So if I get stopped for a tail light and the LEO ask's if I have any firearms in the car and I do, I am supposed to lie and say no? How is that legal? Sorry for the noobish question.

The verdict is out there. Some say lie, some say refuse to confirm. I would stick to the 5th and say "I cannot answer that question" and if pressed say "I have a right not to answer that question".

sandman21
02-16-2012, 11:16 AM
Yup: US v. GUST (405 F.3d 797) good law re searches. But see United States v. Banks, 514 F.3d 769. The gun case that Banks possessed had “Pheonix Arms” and “Bushmaster” logos on it, thus indicating that there was a greater likelihood that the case contained a gun. The search was upheld

It only had "Phoenix Arms" on it and the court concluded

“We need not reach that question here, because unlike the container in Gust, the. Phoenix Arms container is obviously a gun case, even to the casual observer. In Gust, the case bore the inscription "BUSHMASTER," which the court held a lay person would not recognize as a gun manufacturer. Id. Unlike the word Bushmaster, "Phoenix Arms" has a plain meaning that suggests "gun." The word "arm," is defined as a "means of offense or defense," and it is short for the word "firearm," which means gun. Webster's New International Dictionary 118 (3d ed.1981). An individual does not need special knowledge of firearms in order to conclude that the label "PHOENIX ARMS" is the name of a particular gun manufacturer.”

So in the 9th a hard case with Bushmaster on it, can not be simply considered a gun case.


Nice find by the way.

Snip

The reality if you are smart and record the encounter, the judge will throw out the firearm as evidence, and you sue the LEO and LEA for violation of your 4A rights. They pay out money and learn from there lesson. Not knowing your rights and giving in to searches does nothing for you or anyone else, see Richards v. Harris. However, you are free to do what you want.



P.S. Start recording before the stop.

caboom
02-16-2012, 11:20 AM
On this, and other topics, I keep reading "record it". Would an officer, who's about to search your vehicle, possibly against your legal rights, really allow you to take out your cell phone and start recording him?

M1A Rifleman
02-16-2012, 11:39 AM
My 2-cents:

1. LEO see'S the rifle bags in my SUV is that enough grounds for him to search my vehicle?

He has the right to verify if the guns are not loaded. Searching beyond that may depend on what else he see's or suspects, and how he writes his report afterward ;) All the talk about refusing to answer or providing smrtass responses, refusing to authorize searches and threatening suit is fun to think about, but unless you have unlimited time and money, seems stupid IMOP.

2. Is hiding the rifle bags under a blanket more prone to being search if spotted?

Keeping guns "out of sight" seems like a good practice on several levels, one being that it may tend to prevent theft. Nothing wrong with covering under a blanket, thou a large bundle under a blanket that may look like your intentionally hiding something will be an attention getter. Keeping things neat and tightly stored like you care for your items and that you know the law may be enough to dissuade a more indepth look.

3. How many is too many rifles to carry in one vehicle? I usually carry 6 at a time when going to the range.

There is no law specifying a maximum number of weapons that you may own or carry. Obviously, having vehicle load full of guns that could equal many more than one would generally take to the target range at anyone time may raise an eyebrow and generate questions.

mod1217
02-16-2012, 11:45 AM
For what I gathered here it's just best to try to hide the firearm as best as I can to avoid such inconvenience, man the things i have to do to enjoy this sport

On this, and other topics, I keep reading "record it". Would an officer, who's about to search your vehicle, possibly against your legal rights, really allow you to take out your cell phone and start recording him?

I know now im thinking of installing a video camera inside my truck to record the incident :facepalm:

curtisfong
02-16-2012, 11:50 AM
[good summary]

I like your summary. It sums up my opinion as well.

caboom
02-16-2012, 12:03 PM
The one thing that bothers my about saying "if have nothing illegal in the car" is that officers do have legitimate safety concerns about weapons, in addition to their fishing expedition questions.

I might be willing to expand my answer to say "I have no firearms within arms reach or easily accessible to me" to specifically address LEO concern about arms accessible to the driver that could be used against the officer.

What do you guys think about that?

Silence is golden? :D

scarville
02-16-2012, 12:18 PM
On my last occasion in Illinois I transported my range guns locked, unloaded, in a small case, with trigger locks installed and inside of a larger hard case underneath items inside of a locked trunk.

Between the general attitudes of some lawmen and the court system in gun-regulation heavy places a firearm owner should take EVERY precaution possible to avoid detainment, jail, and prosecution. You might be correct vis a vis the specific letter of the law, but its gonna be your money paying the attorney to prove it. Meanwhile you will have an arrest on your record and your guns will be in the custody of the arresting agency.

Storing firearms unlocked and in plain sight may be legal,but its an invitation to trouble in gun-unfriendly areas. This is not merely from law enforcement either, as shady characters who see a rifle in your vehicle may decide to target it for "community asset redistribution".
I have to agree with the spirit of the above. A cops can ALWAYS find a reason to arrest you if he wants to. You can be 100% in the right and pure as driven snow and still be arrested for something. Hell, a cops can push you and then call it an assault. Even if the charges are eventually dropped you are still out the time and money spent fighting them.

I'm not saying you have to be become a copsucker (heaven knows there's already enough of them on this board) but exercise a little intelligent paranoia. You are a gun owner. This is California. They really are out to get you.

jsragman
02-16-2012, 1:04 PM
Hello to all Kali Citizens. Once again, this old Florida Cracker can't quite believe what he reads on this site. How do you folks keep up with all the laws? The cops need to leave the Citizens alone, let 'em go to the range and shoot, and finally, start catching the real criminals. Citizens exercising their Second Amendment rights are NOT criminals. The folks in Sacto must have a whole lot of free time on their hands, time to dream this garbage up! My best to all here, I really enjoy this site. I only wish you could experience real Second Amendment freedom like we have in FL.

thomascrowe
02-16-2012, 1:47 PM
I drive a hatchback, two seater. So some creative work is required.

Handguns go in a gym bag and the zippers get locked together. I make sure it is sitting on the passenger floor with the lock towards the firewall and that it has a pair of shorts and t-shirt (rags) in it. If asked "There are clothes in the bag."

Long gun is a pain. Only one I own is an M-1. Hard case from CMP is big enough the only way to transport it is sitting in the passenger seat. It gets belted in and has a lock on it. Tie wrapped to the lock is a business card from Davis and associates.

I have my back window and side windows tinted fairly dark so you can't see in. As long as the front driver and passenger are not tinted that's completely legal.

I like the idea of not saying anything and just keeping it in a bag or case that doesn't get any questions. I put my guns in notebook cases and lock the zippers together, then I put them in a range bag that looks like a work out bag just like yours. I then put it behind the driver seat, its actually REALLY hard to see if there's anything on the floor back there without getting into the car and checking, but that means they need PC or consent.

I think one of the most important things though that hasn't been said is to be respectful 100% of the time to the LEO. Don't get all bent out of shape or a hard @$$ because he asked, just say no or the I don't have anything illegal phrase and smile...

Has anyone actually ever been ASKED by a LEO if they have guns in the car??? I keep seeing these threads come up but never once someone saying "LEO asked"...

If they run your name does it come up as a gun owner causing the question to be asked?

Decoligny
02-16-2012, 1:57 PM
On this, and other topics, I keep reading "record it". Would an officer, who's about to search your vehicle, possibly against your legal rights, really allow you to take out your cell phone and start recording him?

If I am about to be pulled over, I pull out my Iphone and turn on the recording app. When I turn off the cell phone, it keeps recording, and it cannot be turned off unless the unlock code is entered. The officer will not even know he is being recorded.

Rossi357
02-16-2012, 2:04 PM
So if I get stopped for a tail light and the LEO ask's if I have any firearms in the car and I do, I am supposed to lie and say no? How is that legal? Sorry for the noobish question.

Try this.
1: "There is nothing illegal in my vehicle."
If he/she asks to search your vehicle, say "NO"
2: "I decline to answer any questions with legal advice." (Then shut your piehole, and keep it shut.)

snobord99
02-16-2012, 5:25 PM
Because there is no law against it.

The closest they can come to in the PC is "interfering with a criminal investigation".

A traffic stop for an equipment violation is just that, a violation, not a crime, therefore there is no criminal investigation to be interfering with.

If it happens to be a Federal Officer of any sort that stops you, that is a different ball of wax altogether. It IS ILLEGAL to lie to a federal law enforcement officer. So, if a National Park Ranger pulls you over and asks "Are there any firearms in the vehicle?", if you answer, it had better be the truth.

That's not accurate. An equipment violation is still a crime, it's just a cite and release one. If you refuse to sign the ticket, they can arrest you. They're not arresting you for violating a statute for refusing to sign the ticket (I don't think such a statute exists); they're arresting you for the original violation.

aermotor
02-16-2012, 6:04 PM
Ignore the poorly thought out advice in bold above. That's a sure way to get yourself into a situation where keeping ones cool you could easily avoid.

You're kidding right? If they ask you what's under the blanket you're going to tell them, "oh just my guns" ? You fail so hard :facepalm: If you literally think I meant to say F off, then are sadly mistaken. There are many ways to in essence tell them to pound sand. Oy vey people. How about just keep them covered so you don't have to tell them anything. Pound sand would come after one was unwise enough to leave the cases in plain view.




BTW, a firearm case DOES NOT give cops PC or RS to search. They can check to ensure a firearm is being transported correctly. But a firearm case is NOT a firearm. If they ask if a weapon is inside the case and you answer yes, THEN they can check that case & weapon.

Good luck testing that in reality. I'd prefer to not even have that as the subject matter. See below.




Although armotor may be wrong about the legal technicality; the de facto situation is this: If the average cop sees a gun case in a car on traffic stop he is going to search it. They dont give a **** about any supreme court case law, the 4th amendment or any other distraction. When they see guns or evidence of guns the felony lottery bells start ringing and they start salivating. I'm sure there are exceptions to the rule, but let's all just be honest here about how these encounters usually go...

Now, After skimming that findlaw piece I'm still not sure if a gun case enjoys 4th amendment protection or not? Cliff's notes?

Exactly. The law doesn't technically allow, but that will not stop them.


Why is it so hard to understand people... cover them up and shut the F up.

ewarmour
02-16-2012, 6:26 PM
Hello to all Kali Citizens. Once again, this old Florida Cracker can't quite believe what he reads on this site. How do you folks keep up with all the laws? The cops need to leave the Citizens alone, let 'em go to the range and shoot, and finally, start catching the real criminals. Citizens exercising their Second Amendment rights are NOT criminals. The folks in Sacto must have a whole lot of free time on their hands, time to dream this garbage up! My best to all here, I really enjoy this site. I only wish you could experience real Second Amendment freedom like we have in FL.

I'm in Orlando this week. I stopped by Bass Pro/Outdoor World and checked out the Taurus Judge, the rack of unmolested AR's and all the high cap mags on the shelves.

Cal gun laws suck.

The clerk surmised that the problem is our legislature as well.

How about we vote these liberal anti-gun douche bags out? Anti-CCW Sheriffs as well.

Kid Stanislaus
02-16-2012, 7:47 PM
[QUOTE=PrimerDust360;8049237]Driving a vehicle without a separate trunk? When you're pulled over if your back windows are tinted roll them down so the officer knows there is nothing in the back of the vehicle that poses a threat. If you're transporting a firearm the case is locked, right? keep your hands on the wheel and inform the officer that there is a properly secured rifle in a locked case in the back of the car/truck/suv. If you're polite and don't make sudden moves for your wallet you'll be just fine.

You've got nothing to worry about if you haven't broken any laws, right?:rolleyes:

taperxz
02-16-2012, 7:54 PM
FWIW, most answers here are, not very good.

LEO can not go in your vehicle to look inside a locked gun case unless YOU told LE there was in fact a firearm in the case. You have the right to not say ANYTHING or answer his questions.

If LE had PC to search, their not going to ask you anything. If their PC is that they saw a locked gun case, a judge will throw it out as a 4th A violation.

Transport smart, STFU, and have a nice day.

Kid Stanislaus
02-16-2012, 8:07 PM
The verdict is out there. Some say lie, some say refuse to confirm. I would stick to the 5th and say "I cannot answer that question" and if pressed say "I have a right not to answer that question".


"On the advice of my attorney, to whom I've paid a considerable sum, I decline to answer that question.";)

Kid Stanislaus
02-16-2012, 8:11 PM
I like your summary. It sums up my opinion as well.



Curtis, that's a good summation!;)

snobord99
02-16-2012, 9:15 PM
FWIW, most answers here are, not very good.

LEO can not go in your vehicle to look inside a locked gun case unless YOU told LE there was in fact a firearm in the case. You have the right to not say ANYTHING or answer his questions.

If LE had PC to search, their not going to ask you anything. If their PC is that they saw a locked gun case, a judge will throw it out as a 4th A violation.

Transport smart, STFU, and have a nice day.

Yours included. As someone pointed out earlier: single-purpose container exception. Granted there are probably few containers that fall into this exception.

As for the the "if LE had PC to search, they wouldn't ask for permission." Where do people keep getting this garbage? I'm not a cop, but any cop with half a brain cell is going to ask for permission. Why? Because consent trumps basically ANY 4A argument and if they say no, who cares? You have RS or PC. If your proof that a cop didn't have PC is "he asked me for permission," you're in for a nasty surprise.

STFU is good advice, assuming they have no RS/PC because they asked for permission is just plain stupid.

PrimerDust360
02-16-2012, 9:34 PM
Has anyone actually ever been ASKED by a LEO if they have guns in the car??? I keep seeing these threads come up but never once someone saying "LEO asked"...



Yes, about 6 years before I actually had any guns. It was a friday night in downtown Davis. I'd just driven down from Santa Rosa. I was heading through downtown to In & Out Burger for a Double-Double, animal style. I was driving my primered '73 Duster and a cop heading the other way immediately flipped a u-turn and lit me up. Apparently my license plate light was out again, even though it is the one part of that car that has worked consistently over the 20 years I've had it. I got the usual questioning "Where are you going? Where have you been tonight? Do you have any drugs or guns in the car? WHEN was the last time you were arrested?" (Not the more polite "Have you ever been arrested or are you on probation or parole?" I am used to being asked.)

If there is a rifle case in the back of my car, whether I roll down the windows or not, cop is going to see it and ask. case under a blanket? Cop is going to immediately assume I am hiding pot or something. If I tell him I am coming back from the range and there is a rifle in a locked rifle case, and sees nothing but a locked rifle case he probably isn't going to bust my balls the same way he will otherwise.

Edit: my current daily driver is an '09 PT Cruiser. I bought it in part because I have a large dog, and the rear seats simply pop out. If the rear seats were in it anything in the rear hatch area would be out of view and I wouldn't think twice about anything back there. My rear seats are up in my attic, however. If I am pulled over on the freeway and I pull to the right for a traffic stop the officer is going to approach my passenger window and upon shining a flashlight towards the rear of my car, will be able to see anything back there. In my experience if you're polite and honest they're a lot more willing to handle the traffic stop the easy way, instead of the hard way.

This is for a traffic stop. If I am at a DUI checkpoint or something like that I'd simply provide my ID and tell him I haven't been drinking.

SVT-40
02-16-2012, 10:46 PM
If they are under a blanket, how the heck can they assume the are guns etc? Tell them to pound sand and move along. Know your rights and how to stick up for them. Better to be safe than sorry and always just cover them up to avoid any contact with the law. The same dude was recently arrested TWICE for having an "Assault Weapon" when it was just an M1A (court case no pending on ridiculous CA AWB). It's your business and cops need to stay the F out. Don't speed. Obey traffic laws. Cover them up. Stay safe.

Ignore the poorly thought out advice in bold above. That's a sure way to get yourself into a situation where keeping ones cool you could easily avoid.



You're kidding right? If they ask you what's under the blanket you're going to tell them, "oh just my guns" ? You fail so hard :facepalm: If you literally think I meant to say F off, then are sadly mistaken. There are many ways to in essence tell them to pound sand. Oy vey people. How about just keep them covered so you don't have to tell them anything. Pound sand would come after one was unwise enough to leave the cases in plain view.

Apparently you missed the part where I referred to the part in bold.

Telling a LEO to "pound sand", "F off" or any similar smart ***** words will not help your situation.

If you did not "literally" mean what you wrote then why did you write it?

Besides if they were under a blanket there is no way anyone would know they were there so that eliminates the entire issue in the first place.

aermotor
02-16-2012, 11:08 PM
Agreed. We're talking about too many variables at the same time. Sorry for any confusion. Keep them covered up as stated and there will be nothing to worry about as long as you know how to handle yourself.

taperxz
02-16-2012, 11:47 PM
Yours included. As someone pointed out earlier: single-purpose container exception. Granted there are probably few containers that fall into this exception.

As for the the "if LE had PC to search, they wouldn't ask for permission." Where do people keep getting this garbage? I'm not a cop, but any cop with half a brain cell is going to ask for permission. Why? Because consent trumps basically ANY 4A argument and if they say no, who cares? You have RS or PC. If your proof that a cop didn't have PC is "he asked me for permission," you're in for a nasty surprise.

STFU is good advice, assuming they have no RS/PC because they asked for permission is just plain stupid.

Single purpose container? Get real.

Oh and I guess you think if LE saw a pound of cocaine on the seat he's going to ask for permission to get in your car???? You better watch what you call garbage!!!

PC for a cop to search is SEEING something illegal or permission to search and finding something illegal. If a cop already sees something illegal, he isn't going to ak for your permission. :facepalm:

Chief2Guns
02-17-2012, 12:49 AM
My research, please correct me where I'm wrong.

When getting stopped in a vehicle first question to ask the officer:
Me- Why did you pull me over officer?
Cop- Do you have any weapons, drugs or anything else I should know about in your car?
Me- I have nothing illegal in my car officer.
Cop- Mind if I check?
Me- Officer, I don't consent to a search of my person or my belongings.
Me- Officer, am I being detained or am I free to go?
Me- Officer, I'm going to remain silent until I speak with my lawyer.

If you consent to a search, the search is not illegal and no warrant is required. Never consent to a search. Why?

Due process clause, is evidence obtained illegally. Illegal evidence is not admissible in the courts and will be thrown out.

Anything illegal that's in plain view can be used as probable cause. An officer can then search without a warrant. Why? because the law can't be blind to something that':gunsmilie:s illegal and in plain view. If you are arrested you can be searched without a warrant legaly.

You can be arrested for obstruction of justice, meaning falsifing information.So, never lie to the police. You don't have to answer. You are better of not answering than lying. Do not confess. Why?

Rule of evidence 801(d)(2)(A). Everything you tell the police can and will be used against you but cannot be used for you're defense.

Probable Cause= tangible clear fact or evidence.
Resonable Suspicion= requires less evidence than probable cause and legally you can be detained for a short period of time. Only applies to crimes.
Plain view rule= police do not need a search warrant inorder to confiscate illegal items in plain view.

Police need probable cause or resonable suspicion to detain you. You can challenge them by asking am I free to go.

Most Important stay cool, dont tell the officer I know my rights, show the officer you know you're rights. Comply but don't cooaperate. Don't give up your rights. It will be taken care of in court.



Hope this helps some. No to be considerd legal advise just my research.

snobord99
02-17-2012, 1:33 AM
Single purpose container? Get real.

Oh and I guess you think if LE saw a pound of cocaine on the seat he's going to ask for permission to get in your car???? You better watch what you call garbage!!!

PC for a cop to search is SEEING something illegal or permission to search and finding something illegal. If a cop already sees something illegal, he isn't going to ak for your permission. :facepalm:

Yes, single-purpose container exception. It's a legal concept that you've clearly never heard of (even though some cases have already been pointed out in this thread).

I'll give you that, if a cop saw a pound of cocaine, they'll probably not ask for permission as "I saw a pound of cocaine sitting in plain view in the back seat" generally defeats any 4A argument as well as consent would, but do you honestly think the only way to have PC or RS (do you know what "RS," aka reasonable suspicion is?) for a search is for them to SEE something directly in front of them??? :facepalm:

Please tell me you don't seriously think that.

mod1217
02-17-2012, 8:27 AM
I'll give you that, if a cop saw a pound of cocaine, they'll probably not ask for permission as "I saw a pound of cocaine sitting in plain view in the back seat" generally defeats any 4A argument as well as consent would, but do you honestly think the only way to have PC or RS (do you know what "RS," aka reasonable suspicion is?) for a search is for them to SEE something directly in front of them??? :facepalm:

Please tell me you don't seriously think that.

Well if thats the case are you telling us that any traffic stop may enentualy end up in search of the vehicle without your consent, man i feel like california now has turn into china.

AyatollahGondola
02-17-2012, 8:42 AM
I always keep my rifle in the back window when I'm transporting it, save for the rare times I'd want to keep it out of view when stopping and leaving it unnattended for some period.
There's no mistaking it; It's a rifle. this our culture, and our historical practice. Hiding it all the time just plays into the hands of gun grabbers.

snobord99
02-17-2012, 9:02 AM
Well if thats the case are you telling us that any traffic stop may enentualy end up in search of the vehicle without your consent, man i feel like california now has turn into china.

No, I said they often ask whether or not they already have RS/PC, not that there's RS/PC every time they ask.

If there's no RS/PC, they can still ask; your saying no won't give them RS/PC. If there is RS/PC, it doesn't matter if you say "no" as they already had RS/PC. It's just a hell of a lot easier to justify a search to a judge when you can say "he consented" instead of having to lay out other circumstances which would justify RS/PC.

taperxz
02-17-2012, 9:04 AM
Yes, single-purpose container exception. It's a legal concept that you've clearly never heard of (even though some cases have already been pointed out in this thread).

I'll give you that, if a cop saw a pound of cocaine, they'll probably not ask for permission as "I saw a pound of cocaine sitting in plain view in the back seat" generally defeats any 4A argument as well as consent would, but do you honestly think the only way to have PC or RS (do you know what "RS," aka reasonable suspicion is?) for a search is for them to SEE something directly in front of them??? :facepalm:

Please tell me you don't seriously think that.

Since there is a complete failure of logic on your understanding of the 4 th I'll leave you with this to ponder. Even a locked single purpose container can contain NOTHING!!! LE CAN NOT force their way into a locked container under the presumption that a firearm may be in that container without consent or admission of. IT'S NOT ILLEGAL TO HAVE THAT WEAPON!

snobord99
02-17-2012, 9:20 AM
Since there is a complete failure of logic on your understanding of the 4 th I'll leave you with this to ponder. Even a locked single purpose container can contain NOTHING!!! LE CAN NOT force their way into a locked container under the presumption that a firearm may be in that container without consent or admission of. IT'S NOT ILLEGAL TO HAVE THAT WEAPON!

:facepalm:

I guess my dropping the hint that cases were pointed out in this thread didn't do it. Maybe a DIRECT REFERENCE to the aforementioned case will help you? United States v. Banks, 514 F.3d 769.

This is not to say I disagree with you that a single-purpose container can contain nothing. I'm merely pointing out that such an exception exists and unconsented and warrantless searches of an "obvious" gun case have been upheld.

If you want to assert a failure of logic or understanding, you might want to make sure you actually know what you're talking about.

Edit: I do understand why you don't get it though. I'm assuming you don't know the difference between a probable cause search and a reasonable suspicion/Terry search?

taperxz
02-17-2012, 9:34 AM
A cop is not and should not search a vehicle for a firearm when no crime has been committed, nothing illegal in view and the sole search is for a firearm that is legal to carry.

What is your logic? Are you implying LE will tear my truck apart or break open a locked case and HOPE a firearm is in it for the sole purpose of an "E Check"????

A-J
02-17-2012, 9:46 AM
As has been repeated several times in this thread and the other one - there is the letter of the law, and then there is what happens in the real world. I am not saying that LEOs can or cannot search/inspect, I am not saying you should automatically disclose anything, and I am not saying you should lie either. I'm saying that this is very complicated, and each situation is going to be different.

I am lucky in that all my guns so far fit fine in the trunk of my car. I think the single best piece of advice is to carry them in your vehicle in such a manner that the only way they can be discovered is in a vehicle search. That's my opinion and my practice.

With respect to the "Do you have any (guns, knives, drugs, illegal, whatever) in the vehicle?" question, IME LEOs only ask that type of thing when they are getting "off" vibes from the person they pulled over. I've been pulled over far too many times (including in some heavy gang activity areas), and never once have I had an officer ask me the question. I gues being legit (current license, registration, and insurance) probably goes a long way to that end. YMMV.

snobord99
02-17-2012, 9:58 AM
A cop is not and should not search a vehicle for a firearm when no crime has been committed, nothing illegal in view and the sole search is for a firearm that is legal to carry.

What is your logic? Are you implying LE will tear my truck apart or break open a locked case and HOPE a firearm is in it for the sole purpose of an "E Check"????

Again, do you understand the difference between a PC search and a RS search? If so, the answer should be clear.

I'm not advocating what a cop should or shouldn't do, I'm just pointing out what the law is for those that don't know so they don't take the advice of those that have no idea what the law is.

taperxz
02-17-2012, 11:04 AM
Yes I know the difference and my answer is clear. I guess that's why we have courts.

You seem to be saying the law gives LE more rope in regards to search and seizure than i think it gives them.

snobord99
02-17-2012, 5:59 PM
Yes I know the difference and my answer is clear. I guess that's why we have courts.

You seem to be saying the law gives LE more rope in regards to search and seizure than i think it gives them.

Maybe, but the single-purpose container doctrine isn't something I made up. From the cases I've seen, not that many gun cases would fall under the exception but that doesn't mean the exception doesn't exist.

The whole point of my having jumped into this was that your general sweeping statement that "LEO can not go in your vehicle to look inside a locked gun case unless YOU told LE there was in fact a firearm in the case" is simply wrong. It has been held that there do exist gun cases that so scream "I HAVE A GUN IN ME" that not much else is needed for the officer to look in the case. Again, I'm not making it up, I'm just citing it.

taperxz
02-17-2012, 6:17 PM
Maybe, but the single-purpose container doctrine isn't something I made up. From the cases I've seen, not that many gun cases would fall under the exception but that doesn't mean the exception doesn't exist.

The whole point of my having jumped into this was that your general sweeping statement that "LEO can not go in your vehicle to look inside a locked gun case unless YOU told LE there was in fact a firearm in the case" is simply wrong. It has been held that there do exist gun cases that so scream "I HAVE A GUN IN ME" that not much else is needed for the officer to look in the case. Again, I'm not making it up, I'm just citing it.

It's not the "norm". And again, why would LE risk such a fishing expedition (4a rights violation). To check a presumable legally carried firearm? If the firearm isn't loaded and illegal it's a rights violation or at very least not admissible.

SVT-40
02-17-2012, 9:32 PM
My research, please correct me where I'm wrong.

When getting stopped in a vehicle first question to ask the officer:
Me- Why did you pull me over officer?
Cop- Do you have any weapons, drugs or anything else I should know about in your car?
Me- I have nothing illegal in my car officer.
Cop- Mind if I check?
Me- Officer, I don't consent to a search of my person or my belongings.
Me- Officer, am I being detained or am I free to go?
Me- Officer, I'm going to remain silent until I speak with my lawyer.

If you consent to a search, the search is not illegal and no warrant is required. Never consent to a search. Why?

Due process clause, is evidence obtained illegally. Illegal evidence is not admissible in the courts and will be thrown out.

Anything illegal that's in plain view can be used as probable cause. An officer can then search without a warrant. Why? because the law can't be blind to something that':gunsmilie:s illegal and in plain view. If you are arrested you can be searched without a warrant legaly.

You can be arrested for obstruction of justice, meaning falsifing information.So, never lie to the police. You don't have to answer. You are better of not answering than lying. Do not confess. Why?

Rule of evidence 801(d)(2)(A). Everything you tell the police can and will be used against you but cannot be used for you're defense.

Probable Cause= tangible clear fact or evidence.
Resonable Suspicion= requires less evidence than probable cause and legally you can be detained for a short period of time. Only applies to crimes.
Plain view rule= police do not need a search warrant inorder to confiscate illegal items in plain view.

Police need probable cause or resonable suspicion to detain you. You can challenge them by asking am I free to go.

Most Important stay cool, dont tell the officer I know my rights, show the officer you know you're rights. Comply but don't cooaperate. Don't give up your rights. It will be taken care of in court.



Hope this helps some. No to be considerd legal advise just my research.

By definition a traffic stop is a detention....You are already detained.

So don't act like a street corner Melvin Belli when stopped for a traffic violation. Don't keep repeating words similar to what "chief" posted above and I highlighted in bold.

This is the best advice Chief posted .....

"Officer, I'm going to remain silent until I speak with my lawyer."

Not for the reasons he intended, but more so the officer will not think you are some kind of idiot.

In addition if the officer tells you to get out of your vehicle. Don't argue just do it. Walk where he instructs you to walk and carry out your conversation there.

PrimerDust360
02-18-2012, 1:17 AM
With respect to the "Do you have any (guns, knives, drugs, illegal, whatever) in the vehicle?" question, IME LEOs only ask that type of thing when they are getting "off" vibes from the person they pulled over. I've been pulled over far too many times (including in some heavy gang activity areas), and never once have I had an officer ask me the question. I gues being legit (current license, registration, and insurance) probably goes a long way to that end. YMMV.

In your experience. In mine I was in my 20's then, driving a primer gray musclecar. I had long hair and a Billy Gibbons beard at the time. I was gainfully employed in construction during the housing boom and didn't do burnouts or anything stupid like that. Pulled over again for my "plate light." L, R and I? Check! Here you go, officer! Polite demeanor? Check! Never a fix-it ticket and the traffic stop was usually over relatively quickly. Long hair, beard, Motorhead shirt and a vehicle that fit the profile of a meth dealer meant I was getting pulled over immediately though, and I knew that. The shoulder of the road on a Friday night at 11:00 PM is NOT the time to argue that you know for a fact that light bulb still works and the officer had no reason to pull you over!

Chief2Guns
02-18-2012, 5:36 PM
Ok, agreed it is a detention but not a reason to search. Second, if the officer ask me to step out of the vehicle, I would comply but not cooperate. Raise the windows up and lock the doors and step out of the vehicle. At this point you said go have a conversation with a cop, What?, you failed. Why are you not going to challenge authority by asking am I free to go? excersice your right don't be a sheep. How will I look like an idiot by asking I don't get. Show the officer you know your rights and he will think twice before messing with you.

ClarenceBoddicker
02-18-2012, 7:02 PM
If you drive something like a hatchback or SUV, the best thing to do is cover up everything with something heavy like a canvas cover, moving pads or wool blankets. Put stuff on top of any long gun cases to break up the outline. Put stuff that make outlines like gun cases and ammo boxes in the middle & use lots of decoy stuff around the edges. Paper grocery bags stuffed with clothes are great decoys & a nice touch is to throw in a bottle of laundry detergent & softer. Messy is better then neat & tidy. I've had plenty of LEO's illegally take a peak under the cover by lifting up a corner with their flashlight a little bit. I guess in their mind it's OK to do if their hands don't touch it.

I believe the best policy is to never talk to any LEO's when you are stopped. You have that right even before you get Mirandzied. All you need to tell them is your name address & ID numbers (DL & SSN), nothing else. Out of courtesy I will answer the standard have you been drinking with: "no alcohol". If they push with a fishing expedition I will only say: "arrest, cite or release me" as many times as it takes. If you feel like verbally dueling with a LEO (bad idea IMO, as that is where most PC comes from, what you say) make sure you don't trap yourself with what you say. Be as vague and general as possible. Always have "reasonable" explanations (lies) to counter their assault upon your 4A rights. Don't feel bad at all about lying to a LEO that pulls you over. They are paid very well to be allowed to lie to you and the public.

For driving around with a bunch or dirty clothes you could use an OCD excuse. You can say that you need to keep your clothes covered up so you can't see them, as seeing dirty clothes bothers you. I've used that one many many times successfully before I got wiser & ended all conversations with LEO's that pull me over. It works great for the what are you doing driving around here late at night question. "I can't sleep knowing some of my clothes are dirty & I'm looking for a laundry mat open 24 hours" Why not use your washing machine at home? "I don't want to contaminate it with my greasy car work clothes".

Acting a little bit crazy but harmless can make some LEO's feel uncomfortable & eager to end contact with you & "cut you loose". Acting a lot dumber than you really are can work in your favor also. Always look them right in the eye when you talk to them. Don't let your eyes wander around at all. Keep them on their face with your hands on the wheel. Don't look around at their partner or back up. Glancing at their pistol is really stupid. Try not to blink & don't speak fast, hesitantly or stumble with your answers. Control your breathing & heart rate. Appear as relaxed & calm as possible, like you don't have a care in the world. Signs of your natural anxiety is their advantage. Do whatever you have to do not to show any hints of anger. They love to see you pissed off & will drag out the stop to see if you do or say anything stupid. A vague simpleton expression is a nice touch with a nice pause before you answer. Talking kinda slow is fun also. Ask as many unrelated questions as you feel comfortable with. One of my favorites was "I'm hungry now, do you know a good place around here to eat that doesn't cost too much". I've asked that when pulled over in the parking lot of a fast food place with the drive thru open. Questions like that can reinforce that you may not be playing with a full deck. Having props like a phone book that is years out of date, with multiple bookmarks can help with that.

Religion can be used also. "I'm driving around looking for signs of His work or word". Wear a large cross & keep a few different bibles with multiple bookmarks in your car. Memorize a few verses & try them out. You can make a game out of LEO encounters & have some fun with it. They have seen everything before, but not your version of it.

scrat
02-19-2012, 10:43 AM
Kinda like

If you are pulled over and the LEO asks "do you know why i pulled you over" then asks " how fast were you driving".

When pulled over you ask. Why did you pull me over. Then if they ask "How fast were you driving". I simply say "im sorry but i refuse to answer that question" 5th amendment and i do not believe in entrapment.

Flex your rights

flexyourrights.org

http://flexyourrights.org/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4v1vU2uK7Zs&feature=player_embedded

scrat
02-19-2012, 10:47 AM
=4v1vU2uK7Zs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4v1vU2uK7Zs&feature=player_embedded

LikeAllGuns
02-19-2012, 11:01 AM
Although armotor may be wrong about the legal technicality; the de facto situation is this: If the average cop sees a gun case in a car on traffic stop he is going to search it. They dont give a **** about any supreme court case law, the 4th amendment or any other distraction. When they see guns or evidence of guns the felony lottery bells start ringing and they start salivating. I'm sure there are exceptions to the rule, but let's all just be honest here about how these encounters usually go...

Now, After skimming that findlaw piece I'm still not sure if a gun case enjoys 4th amendment protection or not? Cliff's notes?

Now thats the reall world..........

Chief2Guns
02-19-2012, 5:05 PM
Right on man, flex your rights. Your the type of person I would roll with. Wolf pack!

Doheny
02-19-2012, 5:22 PM
This may help some: http://le.alcoda.org/publications/point_of_view/files/F09_VEHICLE_SEARCHES.pdf

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