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djgtek
02-15-2012, 3:59 PM
I have a hypothetical situation I am hoping I can get feedback on:

It's the middle of the night and all lights are out in your house and you and your family are sound asleep. The next thing you hear is the sound of glass breaking and an alarm you have on your window and sounding (and shortly is unarmed). You act quickly and access your registered handgun from your safe and slowly investigate the noise (with finger off trigger). It is very dark and you slowly walk into the hallway. You then realize there is an intruder in your house and they start running at you. You are not able to see if they have any weapon on them because of the lighting but there is an obvious danger to both you and your family. What would you do and how would it fare when applied to our legal rights? Does your response change if they don't run at you and instead stand there without noticing your presence? Do you wait for them to make a move at you? As I understand this type of thing may happen in a matter of seconds so it'd be interesting to hear everyones thoughts.

rplusplus
02-15-2012, 4:00 PM
Double tap center mass of the blob trying not to hit the dog that is busy chewing his legs off.

cannon
02-15-2012, 4:02 PM
Buy a flashlight.

Nobody who is sane wants to shoot anybody else. If you fear for your life or the lives of your family members. Do what you have to do. But buy a frickin flashlight so you know who or what you are shooting at.

robcoe
02-15-2012, 4:17 PM
Buy a flashlight.

Nobody who is sane wants to shoot anybody else. If you fear for your life or the lives of your family members. Do what you have to do. But buy a frickin flashlight so you know who or what you are shooting at.

^that^

Weapon lights are not that expensive when compared to the price of a gun.

I have one on my shotgun and one on my handgun, easy protection to make sure the blob your pointing the gun at isn't your wife/gf/someone you dont want to shoot.

ElvenSoul
02-15-2012, 4:19 PM
Sjambok even though it is a UN War Crime!

TNP'R
02-15-2012, 4:20 PM
Double tap center mass of the blob trying not to hit the dog that is busy chewing his legs off.

+1 this

This will meet him then I will greet him with a shotgun full of 00 buckshot.
http://i56.tinypic.com/wld579.jpg

djgtek
02-15-2012, 4:21 PM
Great advice on the flashlight. So assuming you have a flashlight and confirm it is an intruder that is rushing at you (with no visable weapon in hand), what is your reaction? What if your flashlight blinds/dazes him but he doesn't make an effort to run away?

robcoe
02-15-2012, 4:40 PM
Great advice on the flashlight. So assuming you have a flashlight and confirm it is an intruder that is rushing at you (with no visable weapon in hand), what is your reaction? What if your flashlight blinds/dazes him but he doesn't make an effort to run away?

part 1: if he's coming toward you, shoot him.

Part 2: if he does anything except surrender or run away, shoot him.

if he surrenders, or just stands there doing nothing, taser him just to be sure.

voiceofreason
02-15-2012, 4:58 PM
Deal with the most immediate threat.

By the time you find out that he has a knife in his hand, even if you shoot him with your .45 multiple times, most likely he'll still be able to bury it in you or at least try. He has momentum, speed, and initiative on his side. You get to figure out what's happening, identify the possible actions and threats, figure out what to do, then put that into action.

I'd still shoot him unarmed or not if he's running at me. I personally don't have the ability to assess whether a person running at me is armed or not within the small confines of a standard living room AND have time to react in a way that will save my life. You might be able to. I cannot.

He's either attacking me or trying to take my gun away. Either way, I'm in fear for my life.

If he's just standing there with nothing in his hands and not moving, I have better options.

check out this thread:
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=8022730&posted=1#post8022730

QuarterBoreGunner
02-15-2012, 6:07 PM
Buy a flashlight.

Nobody who is sane wants to shoot anybody else. If you fear for your life or the lives of your family members. Do what you have to do. But buy a frickin flashlight so you know who or what you are shooting at.

This right here.

And damn, ya'll a bloodthirsty bunch. God help you if you actually do ever have to use deadly force in self-defense, because all of the internet advice in the world will be of zero help when the District Attorney reviews the shoot.

TNP'R
02-15-2012, 6:24 PM
This right here.

And damn, ya'll a bloodthirsty bunch. God help you if you actually do ever have to use deadly force in self-defense, because all of the internet advice in the world will be of zero help when the District Attorney reviews the shoot.

Castle doctrine where I live. If I feel i'm in danger I feel sorry for the guy that broke in. I don't only own firearms so I can go to the range I own them to protect whats important and that's my life. If someones in my house unlawfully I will do what I have to do. I'd tell the person to make no sudden moves and if he makes one then its to bad for him..

voiceofreason
02-15-2012, 6:29 PM
This right here.

And damn, ya'll a bloodthirsty bunch. God help you if you actually do ever have to use deadly force in self-defense, because all of the internet advice in the world will be of zero help when the District Attorney reviews the shoot.


Bloodthirsty? Maybe a few immature people that have watched too many zombie movies might be.

Being ready and willing to utilize deadly force to defend yourself and your family from a hostile deadly threat is hardly bloodthirsty.

Being the defender, having to assess the situation and react accordingly, always on the REACTION end... you're already well behind the curve.

You are correct that there will most likely be legal and civil issues to deal with in the aftermath. But at least you will be alive to do so.

Kodemonkey
02-15-2012, 6:32 PM
I'm more of the "don't go looking for the bad guy, go to the kids room and hold up there" kind of guy. Ill wait for the cops to come - they can steal whatever they want because it's cheaper to pay my homeowners deductible than to shoot someone. But if they come upstairs, I'll do what I need to. I have an alarm and the house is wired for X10. I hit "all lights on" and it lights up everywhere I'm not. If they know the cops are coming, all the lights are on, and an alarm is blaring, and THEY STILL continue up the stairs I am pretty much going to fear for my life and the lives of my family.

lgdpt
02-15-2012, 6:37 PM
A long time San Bernardino cop told me hes witnessed people murdered in their home with a weapon in hand...they were not prepared/willing to fire. Someone uninvited in my home...after breaking a window...late at night...they are not walking out of my house.

QuarterBoreGunner
02-15-2012, 6:39 PM
Bloodthirsty? Maybe a few immature people that have watched too many zombie movies might be.

Being ready and willing to utilize deadly force to defend yourself and your family from a hostile deadly threat is hardly bloodthirsty.

Being the defender, having to assess the situation and react accordingly, always on the REACTION end... you're already well behind the curve.

You are correct that there will most likely be legal and civil issues to deal with in the aftermath. But at least you will be alive to do so.

You are correct in all these statement.

I guess I'm just taken aback sometimes by the cavalier attitude taken by some people to the use of deadly force. It's never as cut and dried as these types of threads seem to portray it.

Absolutely do whatever is necessary to to defend yourself and the lives of your loved ones and never second guess yourself when the SHTF, do what you have to do.

But it never ends there and the gung-ho posts never seem to take that into account.

Exile Machine
02-15-2012, 6:39 PM
I'm more of the "don't go looking for the bad guy, go to the kids room and hold up there" kind of guy. Ill wait for the cops to come - they can steal whatever they want because it's cheaper to pay my homeowners deductible than to shoot someone. But if they come upstairs, I'll do what I need to. I have an alarm and the house is wired for X10. I hit "all lights on" and it lights up everywhere I'm not. If they know the cops are coming, all the lights are on, and an alarm is blaring, and THEY STILL continue up the stairs I am pretty much going to fear for my life and the lives of my family.

You saved me the trouble of typing this. This is my exact answer right down to the X10 system. (or Z-wave or other home lighting control system). Don't clear your house. Let the cops do that. Hole up, call 911 on your cell, and if the bad guys come to you, give 'em both barrels.

-Mark

QuarterBoreGunner
02-15-2012, 6:45 PM
I'm more of the "don't go looking for the bad guy, go to the kids room and hold up there" kind of guy. Ill wait for the cops to come - they can steal whatever they want because it's cheaper to pay my homeowners deductible than to shoot someone. But if they come upstairs, I'll do what I need to. I have an alarm and the house is wired for X10. I hit "all lights on" and it lights up everywhere I'm not. If they know the cops are coming, all the lights are on, and an alarm is blaring, and THEY STILL continue up the stairs I am pretty much going to fear for my life and the lives of my family.

Perfectly stated.

ubet
02-15-2012, 6:49 PM
Shouldnt the claymores you have positioned at all entry points take care of them before they get INTO the house, completely?:shrug:

Kodemonkey
02-15-2012, 6:52 PM
You saved me the trouble of typing this. This is my exact answer right down to the X10 system. (or Z-wave or other home lighting control system). Don't clear your house. Let the cops do that. Hole up, call 911 on your cell, and if the bad guys come to you, give 'em both barrels.

-Mark

Thanks...you're just kissing my butt because I'm a loyal Exile customer ;)

But honestly, protecting your family doesn't stop with stopping the threat. I can't support them very well if I'm in jail. I also don't want to lose my house over some scumbag that wants to do me harm. I've gone so far as talked to a LA district attorney (and close friend) to find out the name of a good defense lawyer that is respected by the DA's office. If I do end up shooting a bad guy, I'm gonna shut up and invoke my right to an attorney. Odds are I'm going to spend the night in jail anyway, I'm not going to put my family in jeapordy because I say something stupid that can be used against me. At that point, I'm out of my element and it's time to hire a professional.

TNP'R
02-15-2012, 6:56 PM
I'm more of the "don't go looking for the bad guy, go to the kids room and hold up there" kind of guy. Ill wait for the cops to come - they can steal whatever they want because it's cheaper to pay my homeowners deductible than to shoot someone. But if they come upstairs, I'll do what I need to. I have an alarm and the house is wired for X10. I hit "all lights on" and it lights up everywhere I'm not. If they know the cops are coming, all the lights are on, and an alarm is blaring, and THEY STILL continue up the stairs I am pretty much going to fear for my life and the lives of my family.

Depends on each persons home lay out really. If your kids are on the opposite side of the house what are you going to do? Lay in a fetal position in your bedroom while your kids are stuck on the other side of the house?? That mind set would not sit well with me.

cannon
02-15-2012, 7:04 PM
Great advice on the flashlight. So assuming you have a flashlight and confirm it is an intruder that is rushing at you (with no visable weapon in hand), what is your reaction? What if your flashlight blinds/dazes him but he doesn't make an effort to run away?

If he runs away or stands still. I'm not shooting. If he charges me, then it's a shooting. This is my stance wether I see a weapon or not.

To expand from your original question. If I hear a window breaking and it's only my wife and I in the house. I'd grab a shotgun and send the Mrs. into the closet with a phone to call 911. Being the macho John Wayne he man that I am. I'd get behind the bed which would give me a clear shot at the bedroom door and wait.

If the sound of a 12 gauge racking doesn't help him to go away then it won't end well for him if he comes through the door before the police get there.

I would rather be in a defensive position. Raises my odds of survival and looks better to the Atty's.

Kodemonkey
02-15-2012, 7:08 PM
Depends on each persons home lay out really. If your kids are on the opposite side of the house what are you going to do? Lay in a fetal position in your bedroom while your kids are stuck on the other side of the house?? That mind set would not sit well with me.

I agree with that completely, I will risk my life to protect my children and they are my first priority. The wife grabs her gun from a separate gun vault than mine (for reliability and redundancy), she and I will be traveling together to the kids room. If bad guy is already up the stairs, there isn't much we can do except try to get between him and the kids. He's gonna have two quick moving targets that both practice regularly with their guns. Assuming we get there before anyone is upstairs, the wife goes in the kids room and I will be at the top of dark stairs with the rest of the lights on. The wifes job is to keep the kids from getting out of that room. If the bag guys get past me, then Mama bear is the last line of defense.

You have to make your own plan depending on house layout. This is the best we have been able to come up with.

ramathorn
02-15-2012, 7:15 PM
Yeah, get a flashlight near your bed. A heavy one like MagLite would be good so you can use it as a club if need be. You may be a little fuzzy from sleeping or stumble and possibly not be as quick as the intruder. Its a solid back up weapon for you or the wife, much better than nothing.

If someone broke into your home and is moving toward you - and you say stop and they don't, you're clear to take action to stop the threat from advancing. You were scared for your life and the person was advancing in spite of your verbal request to spot. You're clear.

If you do shoot, remember who else is in that general direction. Kids, siblings, even neighbors next door can get killed by over penetrating rounds. Freaking scary.

You can't just shoot someone if they are there just standing there or going through your stuff and especially not if they retreat. If you freak him out and he runs toward the door, let him go. Legally you are no longer in danger and the immediate threat has passed. Remember this to stay out of jail!

Lives_In_Fresno
02-15-2012, 7:17 PM
So, you are in a dark hallway, and are saying that the intruder somehow knows where you are? How is that?

PLEASE make sure you don't accidentally shoot your kids that happened to come in from joyriding all night, and forgot that the window is alarmed...Make sure of what you are shooting BEFORE you shoot it.

rplusplus
02-15-2012, 7:25 PM
Unless you are 100% sure that you will take the life of another if it comes to it... do not buy a firearm for self defense. And when you realize that no one... NO ONE is going to come to your aid if someone decides that they want what you have in your home, be it money, or your life. I have locks, I have a dog, I have alarms, and as a last resort... I have a fighting spirit and a gun that says... No I will Not be a victim.

Cavalier attitude towards taking ones life? No... I don't go looking for trouble... but I am prepared to defend myself and my home.

Some people in America... and I say America becuse at least we have the freedom to defend ourselves... at least in our homes... don't even give this a second thought.

People right now will go to sleep thinking if someone comes to their home to do evil that 911 will protect them... Seriously.

So I repeat...

Double tap center mass...

Lone_Gunman
02-15-2012, 8:42 PM
My house is pretty small. The kitchen/dining area and the front room are separated from the bedrooms by a short hallway. I have night/power failure lights in the front room and the front bathroom, it's never too dark to see who is in my house. If someone is in either my front room or kitchen/dining area and are coming toward me I'm going to use whatever force necessary to stop the threat. I'm not going to retreat, I'm not going to try to reason with them. I have a 20 month old, a 6 year old, and a wife. It's my job to protect them, I don't have time to retreat, grab both kids, my wife, and hole up. It's a 1300 square foot house that you could get from one end to the other in about 3 seconds.

canative
02-15-2012, 8:55 PM
Ca has the Castle Doctrine, you have the right to defend yourself and your family in your own home up to and including deadly force. There was just a case over the weekend up in Antioch I think. Anyway, this father was with his child at home and hears someone knocking and doesn't answer, the intruder breaks down the door and is armed with a handgun and the father wrestles with him and takes the intruder's gun away and shoots him a few times and the intruder falls out the door and dies right there. The intruder was only 18. There are no charges pending for the homeowner.

TNP'R
02-15-2012, 9:04 PM
Ca has the Castle Doctrine, you have the right to defend yourself and your family in your own home up to and including deadly force. There was just a case over the weekend up in Antioch I think. Anyway, this father was with his child at home and hears someone knocking and doesn't answer, the intruder breaks down the door and is armed with a handgun and the father wrestles with him and takes the intruder's gun away and shoots him a few times and the intruder falls out the door and dies right there. The intruder was only 18. There are no charges pending for the homeowner.

It does have the castle doctorine but not to the extent of most other states.

Grumpyoldretiredcop
02-15-2012, 9:33 PM
I have a hypothetical situation I am hoping I can get feedback on:

It's the middle of the night and all lights are out in your house and you and your family are sound asleep. The next thing you hear is the sound of glass breaking and an alarm you have on your window and sounding (and shortly is unarmed).

You act quickly and access your registered handgun which is equipped with a light from your safe nightstand and slowly investigate the noise (with finger off trigger) (not a chance of that).

It is very dark and you slowly walk into the hallway. (not a chance of that happening either) and get on the phone using the PD's local dispatch number while getting the wife awake, behind cover (the bed) and securing the bedroom door to await backup - if necessary, egress through the ground level bedroom window is available.

That takes care of the remainder of this scenario.You then realize there is an intruder in your house and they start running at you. You are not able to see if they have any weapon on them because of the lighting but there is an obvious danger to both you and your family. What would you do and how would it fare when applied to our legal rights? Does your response change if they don't run at you and instead stand there without noticing your presence? Do you wait for them to make a move at you? As I understand this type of thing may happen in a matter of seconds so it'd be interesting to hear everyones thoughts.

Edited for your convenience. I've been trained to clear houses, I don't clear them solo unless there is just no other choice, especially after such clear notice that an entry has been made. Anyone who thinks that they are a tactical paragon is welcome to try it. It's just a stupid way to be dead.

voiceofreason
02-16-2012, 5:42 AM
But honestly, protecting your family doesn't stop with stopping the threat. I can't support them very well if I'm in jail. I also don't want to lose my house over some scumbag that wants to do me harm. I've gone so far as talked to a LA district attorney (and close friend) to find out the name of a good defense lawyer that is respected by the DA's office. If I do end up shooting a bad guy, I'm gonna shut up and invoke my right to an attorney. Odds are I'm going to spend the night in jail anyway, I'm not going to put my family in jeapordy because I say something stupid that can be used against me. At that point, I'm out of my element and it's time to hire a professional.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=535910

voiceofreason
02-16-2012, 5:50 AM
If the sound of a 12 gauge racking doesn't help him to go away then it won't end well for him if he comes through the door before the police get there.

I would rather be in a defensive position. Raises my odds of survival and looks better to the Atty's.

Respectfully,

racking the shotgun:
nothing to prevent the criminal from shooting through the door or walls, HE doesn't need to identify his target firs, hearing a shotgun... not legally, but he may be in fear for HIS life and sacrifice yours to better his chances of survival


defensive position:
agreed that the person WAITING has a higher chance of success over the person searching/moving

-the person waiting is simply waiting for a target to pop up and then pull the trigger

-the person moving/searching has to assess the visual stimulus of where the other person is, how they are oriented, and THEN shoot

it's less than a 1 second difference for many people, but a 1 seconds jump in a gunfight is a LONG time

being in the dark/behind concealment makes a big difference in your favor as well. takes longer to process 1/3 of a head and a gun pointed at you than a person standing up or a full torso & head over a bed.

*please note that a bed gives a bit more of a barrier to gun grabs and contact weapons, but provides very little protection from most bullets

cannon
02-16-2012, 7:08 AM
Respectfully,

racking the shotgun:
nothing to prevent the criminal from shooting through the door or walls, HE doesn't need to identify his target firs, hearing a shotgun... not legally, but he may be in fear for HIS life and sacrifice yours to better his chances of survival


defensive position:
agreed that the person WAITING has a higher chance of success over the person searching/moving

-the person waiting is simply waiting for a target to pop up and then pull the trigger

-the person moving/searching has to assess the visual stimulus of where the other person is, how they are oriented, and THEN shoot

it's less than a 1 second difference for many people, but a 1 seconds jump in a gunfight is a LONG time

being in the dark/behind concealment makes a big difference in your favor as well. takes longer to process 1/3 of a head and a gun pointed at you than a person standing up or a full torso & head over a bed.

*please note that a bed gives a bit more of a barrier to gun grabs and contact weapons, but provides very little protection from most bullets

I understand your reasoning but I don't keep my shotgun with one in the chamber. So on grabbing it. It's gotta get racked.

bwingnutt
02-16-2012, 10:08 AM
Dead men tell no tales: Didn't someone say that once ago?

a1c
02-16-2012, 10:15 AM
Thanks...you're just kissing my butt because I'm a loyal Exile customer ;)

But honestly, protecting your family doesn't stop with stopping the threat. I can't support them very well if I'm in jail. I also don't want to lose my house over some scumbag that wants to do me harm. I've gone so far as talked to a LA district attorney (and close friend) to find out the name of a good defense lawyer that is respected by the DA's office. If I do end up shooting a bad guy, I'm gonna shut up and invoke my right to an attorney. Odds are I'm going to spend the night in jail anyway, I'm not going to put my family in jeapordy because I say something stupid that can be used against me. At that point, I'm out of my element and it's time to hire a professional.

Huh... No. You're not going to end up in jail. You need to stop watching silly movies and TV shows.

It's a good idea to get your lawyer and keep your mouth shut as much as possible. But in most cases, all you need to tell the cops is "I was fearing for my life." You'll do just fine. Contrary to popular belief, there are very, very few cases where a homeowner in California shot an intruder and ended up in jail. When it happens, it usually means something went very, very wrong. Just don't shoot someone in the back as they're running away, and you'll be fine.

+1000 on a light. Don't shoot at something you can't see. Too many kids or drunk teenagers have ended up on someone else's conscience that way.

QuarterBoreGunner
02-16-2012, 10:15 AM
Dead men tell no tales: Didn't someone say that once ago?

Yeah and Crime Scene Investigators say 'forensic evidence will get you convicted of murder.'

sanjosebmx
02-16-2012, 11:06 AM
all our bedrooms are upstairs, I have a 'remote' spotlight downstairs with the 'clicker' right by my gun. I can light up the downstairs, and you can't see upstairs to my landing (where I will be, waiting for a clear sight picture.

Kodemonkey
02-18-2012, 9:29 AM
Huh... No. You're not going to end up in jail. You need to stop watching silly movies and TV shows.

It's a good idea to get your lawyer and keep your mouth shut as much as possible. But in most cases, all you need to tell the cops is "I was fearing for my life." You'll do just fine. Contrary to popular belief, there are very, very few cases where a homeowner in California shot an intruder and ended up in jail. When it happens, it usually means something went very, very wrong. Just don't shoot someone in the back as they're running away, and you'll be fine.

+1000 on a light. Don't shoot at something you can't see. Too many kids or drunk teenagers have ended up on someone else's conscience that way.

I hope you're right. It's a sad day when I fear our legal system more than an armed intruder, but that's my real concern. That's why I have gone to the extents that I have to stack as much in my favor legally as well as defensively.

Odds are it is one in a million that I'll end up having to execute this plan.

BassNut
02-18-2012, 9:39 AM
That's why the surefire flashlight is right next to my firearm within 1' of my hand when I'm sleeping.

Bottom line for me anyway. If someone is in my house in the middle of the night running at me, and I've identified that he is NOT a family member then he is getting shot plain and simple. I will worry about the repercussions after the threat is stopped.

This is especially true now as my youngest kid will be 18 in a few days and the Wife has a good job. So worrying about having a family to support is not as big of an issue anymore.

BKinzey
02-18-2012, 10:46 AM
.... there is an obvious danger to both you and your family....

...And damn, ya'll a bloodthirsty bunch. .....

I guess you missed the out right here. "obvious danger":rolleyes: which could mean a lot of things. The problem is he doesn't define obvious danger but states there is one. So the answer is you stop the threat. I mean the scenario is pretty much moot beyond an intruder displaying an obvious danger unless the OP want to further define what he meant by obvious danger.

Distro
02-18-2012, 12:10 PM
I'll just side with QuarterBoreGunner when it comes to self defense shooting incidents.