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sneaker pimp
02-15-2012, 3:00 PM
I just want to be clear on the legality of two firearms being in California. Please tell me what configuration of the rifle is legal. Also, if it is legal to have the prohibited rifle accessories in my possession if they are not on the firearm itself. The flowchart has me not entirely sure.

AK-47:
Pistol Grip
10 round magazine
threaded barrel
flash hider
folding stock mechanism
bullet button
vertical foregrip

Glock pistol:
threaded barrel

Also, I understand that having >10 round magazines in this rifle is prohibited. Is having >10 round magazines in the pistol prohibited? We are assuming in this example that I am legally in possession of these magazines.

CSACANNONEER
02-15-2012, 3:05 PM
The AK is fine as long as it is over 30" folded. There is no constructive possession when it comes to Ca AW laws. The Glock would be a FELONY with a threaded barrel unless, it has a 10 round or less FIXED magazine.

Possession of any magazine is legal.

Use of any plus 10 round magazine in any semi auto with a fixed magazine (BB, Radlock, Solar, etc) would be manufacturing an AW. Use of any +10 round magazine in any semi auto firearm with the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and void of evil features is fine.

stix213
02-15-2012, 3:18 PM
Also, I understand that having >10 round magazines in this rifle is prohibited. Is having >10 round magazines in the pistol prohibited? We are assuming in this example that I am legally in possession of these magazines.

Being in possession of >10 round mags is not prohibited. Acquiring or importing those mags into CA as of 1/1/2000 is generally prohibited though.

sneaker pimp
02-15-2012, 3:18 PM
By "constructive possession" you mean having the parts is not equal to being guilty of possessing them assembled?

And the Glock could have >10 round magazines so long as it was bone stock without a threaded barrel?

ClarenceBoddicker
02-15-2012, 3:19 PM
The biggest problem with the AK is the model ID that is normally on the trunnion. Many are listed already. You can legally change all the markings except for the SN under federal law. Unknown about the CA DOJ. I've always wondered about just adding a prefix to a "bad" model ID like the AKS-47. Is a AAKS-47 OK. Stuff like that worked for the Fed Unsoeld/Bush 1st 922R import ban.

The Glock is easy, just swap out the barrel or cut or grind off the threads. If you want to keep the treads for future use, get or make a thread protector & Loctite it on. You would most likely have to remove it to strip the pistol down. Heat from a heat gun or lighter will loosen up the Loctite. You could piss off the CA DOJ & go with a 3 lug Glock extended barrel.

sneaker pimp
02-15-2012, 3:24 PM
The biggest problem with the AK is the model ID that is normally on the trunnion. Many are listed already. You can legally change all the markings except for the SN under federal law. Unknown about the CA DOJ. I've always wondered about just adding a prefix to a "bad" model ID like the AKS-47. Is a AAKS-47 OK. Stuff like that worked for the Fed Unsoeld/Bush 1st 922R import ban.

The Glock is easy, just swap out the barrel or cut or grind off the threads. If you want to keep the treads for future use, get or make a thread protector & Loctite it on. You would most likely have to remove it to strip the pistol down. Heat from a heat gun or lighter will loosen up the Loctite. You could piss off the CA DOJ & go with a 3 lug Glock extended barrel.

It is a Saiga receiver.

CSACANNONEER
02-15-2012, 3:31 PM
The biggest problem with the AK is the model ID that is normally on the trunnion. Many are listed already. You can legally change all the markings except for the SN under federal law. Unknown about the CA DOJ. I've always wondered about just adding a prefix to a "bad" model ID like the AKS-47. Is a AAKS-47 OK. Stuff like that worked for the Fed Unsoeld/Bush 1st 922R import ban.

The Glock is easy, just swap out the barrel or cut or grind off the threads. If you want to keep the treads for future use, get or make a thread protector & Loctite it on. You would most likely have to remove it to strip the pistol down. Heat from a heat gun or lighter will loosen up the Loctite. You could piss off the CA DOJ & go with a 3 lug Glock extended barrel.

:eek: I do not think you can change ANY LEGAL marking including manufacturer's info.

SJgunguy24
02-15-2012, 3:32 PM
It is a Saiga receiver.

What's the Importers name? KUSA is banned, RRA, Legion, Mercury (and something else) are all legal.

SJgunguy24
02-15-2012, 3:33 PM
:eek: I do not think you can change ANY LEGAL marking including manufacturer's info.

07 FFL with a BATFE approved variance can.

CSACANNONEER
02-15-2012, 3:35 PM
07 FFL with a BATFE approved variance can.

True. I don't think ClarenceBoddicker was talking about that though. I would hate to see someone read what he wrote an end up in prison because they thought he was correct.

ClarenceBoddicker
02-15-2012, 3:35 PM
"Constructive possession" is a grey area. With 2A stuff it's from the Fed Machine Gun ban & the Fed Suppressor parts kit ban from the same time period. It's a NFA thing for the feds. It's like possessing a Sten Mk-2 parts kit & a piece of pipe of the correct size at the same time. ATF has ruled that a collection of parts that can be assembled (unknown time frame) into a working Machine Gun is in fact a Machine Gun. Same thing with short barrels. If you own a short barrel that will fit a weapon, they can claim that you are in possession of an unregistered short barreled rifle or shotgun. AFAIK the ATF never tried that with the Clinton AWB. Not sure if the CA DOJ plays that game with non Machine Gun stuff.

CSACANNONEER
02-15-2012, 3:38 PM
"Constructive possession" is a grey area. With 2A stuff it's from the Fed Machine Gun ban & the Fed Suppressor parts kit ban from the same time period. It's a NFA thing for the feds. It's like possessing a Sten Mk-2 parts kit & a piece of pipe of the correct size at the same time. ATF has ruled that a collection of parts that can be assembled (unknown time frame) into a working Machine Gun is in fact a Machine Gun. Same thing with short barrels. If you own a short barrel that will fit a weapon, they can claim that you are in possession of an unregistered short barreled rifle or shotgun. AFAIK the ATF never tried that with the Clinton AWB. Not sure if the CA DOJ plays that game with non Machine Gun stuff.

Constructive possession is not a grey area. The OP is asking about CA AW laws and there is NO constructive possession there. If he were talking about NFA laws, then CP is prohibited period. Still no "grey area" though.

bigcalidave
02-15-2012, 3:39 PM
Take the barrel out of the glock immediately. Don't run a 3-lug, or anything designed to attach devices to the barrel.

Be very careful that the AK isn't on the named list in the flowchart, and don't just change the name if it is.

SJgunguy24
02-15-2012, 3:43 PM
"Constructive possession" is a grey area. With 2A stuff it's from the Fed Machine Gun ban & the Fed Suppressor parts kit ban from the same time period. It's a NFA thing for the feds. It's like possessing a Sten Mk-2 parts kit & a piece of pipe of the correct size at the same time. ATF has ruled that a collection of parts that can be assembled (unknown time frame) into a working Machine Gun is in fact a Machine Gun. Same thing with short barrels. If you own a short barrel that will fit a weapon, they can claim that you are in possession of an unregistered short barreled rifle or shotgun. AFAIK the ATF never tried that with the Clinton AWB. Not sure if the CA DOJ plays that game with non Machine Gun stuff.

Any supressor parts are the same thing as a complete can. Baffels, tubes, end caps, it's all considered a supressor. That's why your supposed to send your cans to the manufacturer for service. That FFL address will cover all of those parts under their "umbrella" of the SOT. If you own a can that stamp is good for that 1 part and that only.
If you have MG parts, modify them or get rid of them, easy enough. I have yet to find any LEO or state agent who has a full working knowledge of how MG's work and what all the parts look like.

SJgunguy24
02-15-2012, 3:45 PM
Take the barrel out of the glock immediately. Don't run a 3-lug, or anything designed to attach devices to the barrel.

Be very careful that the AK isn't on the named list in the flowchart, and don't just change the name if it is.

With a mag lock he can run a threaded barrel. I've come up with mag locks so we could shoot the FNP tactical with a can.

ClarenceBoddicker
02-15-2012, 3:51 PM
True. I don't think ClarenceBoddicker was talking about that though. I would hate to see someone read what he wrote an end up in prison because they thought he was correct.

Well I do in fact have a letter from ATF tech branch saying that this non licensed individual (me) can do just that to his own weapons. I asked about the model ID (AKS-47), importer (Clayco), manufacture (Norinco) country of origin (China) & even the caliber (7.62x39 mm) markings. Everything but the serial number is OK to remove or change. I did not ask them about required NFA markings like Name, City & State. I'm talking about normal weapons. I would recommend that anyone who wants to change the markings to get their own letter from ATF tech branch.

How about using a non scanable barcode for a CA model marking? I bet the CA DOJ would love that.

CSACANNONEER
02-15-2012, 3:55 PM
Well I do in fact have a letter from ATF tech branch saying that this non licensed individual (me) can do just that to his own weapons. I asked about the model ID (AKS-47), importer (Clayco), manufacture (Norinco) country of origin (China) & even the caliber (7.62x39 mm) markings. Everything but the serial number is OK to remove or change. I did not ask them about required NFA markings like Name, City & State. I'm talking about normal weapons. I would recommend that anyone who wants to change the markings to get their own letter from ATF tech branch.

How about using a non scanable barcode for a CA model marking? I bet the CA DOJ would love that.

"Normal weapons" are covered by the NFA act. In fact, the NFA act of 1968 is what required SNs, name and location of the manufacturer to be put on all guns manufactured for sale. If you have a letter, I'd be very interested in seeing it. I can't believe that it would be OK to remove the make and model of a firearm and just leave a SN. There would sure be a lot of SN #000001 without any other identifying make on them if this was the case. Is there any way you could black out your personal info and post a copy of the letter? Thanks.

Librarian
02-15-2012, 4:01 PM
By "constructive possession" you mean having the parts is not equal to being guilty of possessing them assembled?

Yes, that's the definition of constructive possession

And the Glock could have >10 round magazines so long as it was bone stock without a threaded barrel?
IF you are either exempt from the Roster or had the magazines in CA before 1 Jan 2000. Threaded barrel is an 'assault weapon' thing, along with magazine locking device. Large-capacity mags are their own issue.

ClarenceBoddicker
02-15-2012, 4:33 PM
"Normal weapons" are covered by the NFA act. In fact, the NFA act of 1968 is what required SNs, name and location of the manufacturer to be put on all guns manufactured for sale. If you have a letter, I'd be very interested in seeing it. I can't believe that it would be OK to remove the make and model of a firearm and just leave a SN. There would sure be a lot of SN #000001 without any other identifying make on them if this was the case. Is there any way you could black out your personal info and post a copy of the letter? Thanks.

By normal weapons I meant non NFA weapons. The NFA (as amended by the 1968 GCA) requires special markings for all non pre 1968 import or manufacture NFA weapons. That's why most will have the Name or Company, City & State markings, as it's required. Same thing if you take a registered MG that was a DEWAT & was re-registered as non-functing during the amnesty. When the price of MG's jumped in the 90's many old DEWAT's were "rewatted". They had to pay the $200 "making" tax & do all the new post '68 form 1 markings. Pretty lame for the old C&R guns.

No problem with posting up that letter, as long as the Mods won't have a problem with it. I'll ask a Mod about it before posting it. It may take me a few days to dig it out.

sneaker pimp
02-15-2012, 5:14 PM
Thank you. All of my questions were answered.

I do find it odd though that folding stocks are legal.

sneaker pimp
02-23-2012, 1:25 PM
One more question about the threaded barrel on the Glock. Is there a way to permanently affix a thread protector to exempt it legally but in a way that it could be reversed with some tinkering at a later time when I can move?

I'm thinking thread lock slathered on.

Also, I just want to double check that vertical foregrip and a folding stock are legal if the gun is >30" folded.

stix213
02-23-2012, 1:41 PM
One more question about the threaded barrel on the Glock. Is there a way to permanently affix a thread protector to exempt it legally but in a way that it could be reversed with some tinkering at a later time when I can move?

I'm thinking thread lock slathered on.

Also, I just want to double check that vertical foregrip and a folding stock are legal if the gun is >30" folded.

Forward vertical grip and a folding stock are just fine, as long as the total length of the rifle cannot be configured to less than 30" and be fired. That also assumes you've installed a mag lock (aka bullet button).

Thread lock won't cut it, but red loctite might be acceptable based on this previous thread:
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=339826

I'd seriously recommend just getting an unthreaded Glock barrel. You can keep the threaded one as long as its not installed in the Glock, or you can sell it to recoup your costs. Reason being that even if you can win in court with red loctite, that doesn't mean you won't get arrested and have to fight your way to freedom (way more expensive than buying a new barrel). What type of adhesives bring a threaded barrel into unthreaded status for CA AW law is uncharted territory with very little info coming from the CA DOJ on it to guide us. No one wants to be the test case to settle this.

Decoligny
02-23-2012, 2:02 PM
The biggest problem with the AK is the model ID that is normally on the trunnion. Many are listed already. You can legally change all the markings except for the SN under federal law. Unknown about the CA DOJ. I've always wondered about just adding a prefix to a "bad" model ID like the AKS-47. Is a AAKS-47 OK. Stuff like that worked for the Fed Unsoeld/Bush 1st 922R import ban.

The Glock is easy, just swap out the barrel or cut or grind off the threads. If you want to keep the treads for future use, get or make a thread protector & Loctite it on. You would most likely have to remove it to strip the pistol down. Heat from a heat gun or lighter will loosen up the Loctite. You could piss off the CA DOJ & go with a 3 lug Glock extended barrel.

Loctite is not enough. To legally have a threaded barrel it has to be permanent. You pretty much need to use silver solder or have it pinned to make it legal.

They don't want you to be able to heat it up with a lighter, unscrew the thread protector and screw on a suppressor.

Flopper
02-23-2012, 2:22 PM
I'd seriously recommend just getting an unthreaded Glock barrel. You can keep the threaded one as long as its not installed in the Glock, or you can sell it to recoup your costs. Reason being that even if you can win in court with red loctite, that doesn't mean you won't get arrested and have to fight your way to freedom (way more expensive than buying a new barrel). What type of adhesives bring a threaded barrel into unthreaded status for CA AW law is uncharted territory with very little info coming from the CA DOJ on it to guide us. No one wants to be the test case to settle this.

This.

Make it easy on yourself. Glock barrels are from expensive.