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View Full Version : Wife just fired off a .40 round at the house 15 mins ago


winnre
02-15-2012, 8:35 AM
My wife called me screaming that a coyote was attacking out dog. The only weapons in the house are a 40 cal and my cooking. I told her to make noise and as a last resort go get the gun.

The gun is unloaded, she loaded the magazine and went to inspect to find that our dog was losing the fight. She fired a shot and the coyote ran away. She missed. Then she called me back to say she had fired a shot.

I told her put the gun down since the threat is gone, she said she was shaking from the experience. She dropped the magazine but is too shaky to unload the round from the chamber. I advised her to call 911 to report the shooting, though it is justified the neighbors may call 911 to report it. She did so, and they are sending an officer out to "inspect the weapon." Probably not a bad idea considering her shakiness. The gun is on the kitchen table and she is staying out of the kitchen. There are no other accessible firearms.

Her words of wisdom:
-Guns are LOUD in a backyard with no hearing protection.
-Shooting at a paper target in a controlled and well lit environment is nothing like shooting at a vicious moving animal that is trying to eat your dog.
-As bad as the "bad guy" may be in the situation, you never want anything dead in the end.

I told her we will get her trained up on a rifle or other firearm she is more comfy with to stop the coyote threat. Neighbors said they are roving in packs at night, stealing pets from houses as they go. We have heard them.

Well that's OUR excitement for the morning!

FatalKitty
02-15-2012, 8:40 AM
scary experience for her I am sure

this is why I always advocate stress training even for the ladies

winnre
02-15-2012, 8:59 AM
I guess I need to find the perfect self defense caliber for coyotes. I know a .22 will kill them, but when you need to drop them NOW, then what? I can break out other calibers but have neighbors around, eventually.

paul0660
02-15-2012, 9:02 AM
I guess I need to find the perfect self defense caliber for coyotes.

.40 will do it.

R1K
02-15-2012, 9:11 AM
I wish I have the luxury of shooting coyotes in my own backyard.

Makes a good justification to take your wife to train and shoot more often.

Just imagine if it was a "two legged varmint" attacking/sacking your property.

nitrofc
02-15-2012, 9:11 AM
.40 will definitely do it.

My wife owns 2 different size .40's and for her they work real well but she goes out and shoots at least once a month.

One thing she does is fire off a few 10 rnd. mags with no ear protection just as a mental reminder of the bang factor. Then finishes up her morning with the ear protection back on.

Glad to hear she was able to stop the Coyote from hurting your dog real badly.
Maybe this is a good thing to get her out shooting some....she might really enjoy it!

redhemi
02-15-2012, 9:12 AM
Well it sounds like she handled the situation ok. I hope your dog is ok.

DSB
02-15-2012, 9:16 AM
Is your dog okay? Other than being shaken up, I'm glad your wife's okay.

winnre
02-15-2012, 9:17 AM
Oh she enjoys shooting, she learned on my Kimber and also shot a full auto Uzi. But paper targets are way different.

My town is a mile long and has a population of 107. The closest neighbor cannot be hit with a bow and arrow. We're surrounded by national forest on all sides. But we have coyotes, bears, and a mountain lion. We had tons of mice some months ago, I was catching a dozen a night. Now there's no mice and plenty coyote.

I'm thinking of setting up the Ruger 10/22 for multiple taps for her, and the Winchester 30/30 for me. I may even carry it in the trunk.

Oh, and I'll get some bright orange hearing protection and put it with the gun for the times you can take 5 seconds to put them on.

The dogs are fine. :-)

nitrofc
02-15-2012, 9:21 AM
Oh she enjoys shooting, she learned on my Kimber and also shot a full auto Uzi. But paper targets are way different.

My town is a mile long and has a population of 107. The closest neighbor cannot be hit with a bow and arrow. We're surrounded by national forest on all sides. But we have coyotes, bears, and a mountain lion. We had tons of mice some months ago, I was catching a dozen a night. Now there's no mice and plenty coyote.

I'm thinking of setting up the Ruger 10/22 for multiple taps for her, and the Winchester 30/30 for me. I may even carry it in the trunk.

Oh, and I'll get some bright orange hearing protection and put it with the gun for the times you can take 5 seconds to put them on.

The dogs are fine. :-)

Sounds like you live in the same type of environment as I do.
Same creatures.......and Wild Donkeys to! Hahha Haaa.
(San Ber'do Mountains at 6,000 ft.)

Vlad 11
02-15-2012, 9:22 AM
Wow, sounds like an exiting morning. Hope your wife is OK

winnre
02-15-2012, 9:22 AM
(San Ber'do Mountains at 6,000 ft.)

5800. :p

winnre
02-15-2012, 9:23 AM
Had my .380 but didnt fire. Hitting a running coyote is not likely in the best of circumstances.


Maybe time for a Crimson Trace grip.

Below.Zero
02-15-2012, 9:24 AM
Glad to hear everything worked out...

LaLa
02-15-2012, 9:26 AM
Maybe get her a 9mm? I remember I was scared to death after using my .40 for the first time just because of its recoil... Not saying this is her first time but maybe something that kicks a lil less?

winnre
02-15-2012, 9:41 AM
Well the officer showed up. Interesting moment. Per my wife, the officer, as female, knocked on the door, when my wife opened the door the officer barged right on in, no hello or anything, just pushed her aside and walked in. The gun was in the kitchen and the officer asked if this was the one used, she said yes. The officer then said, "Since you discharged a firearm we will have to write a report, plus we have to run a background check on the gun, and we have to run a background check on you." The officer then walked around the kitchen seeing what she can see, such as papers on the counter and notes on the fridge, being a very nosy snoop. The officer asked questions about me and seemed satisfied with my background, yet still looked twice at my wife while getting the pistol information.

Then the officer left. Oddly enough, THE OFFICER DID NOT CLEAR THE WEAPON! It still has a round in the chamber and did through the entire investigation process.

I guess it all came back fine because the wife and the gun are still at the house.

I am unaware of police protocol in these matters. Is walking in uninvited some sort of tactic or procedure? I'd have not expected it for sure.

Sam
02-15-2012, 9:56 AM
If you are going to put hearing protection by the gun then make it electronic. Only another second to turn it on and you will be able to hear things around you.

paul0660
02-15-2012, 9:59 AM
winnre, what sort of officer showed up? This is getting............odd.

winnre
02-15-2012, 10:00 AM
winnre, what sort of officer showed up? This is getting............odd.

County Sheriff.

gumby
02-15-2012, 10:00 AM
My dept. doesn't work that way. I would get a copy of that report and show it to your attorney(cya) and if anything negative was written by the officer, contact her supervisor. Its people that count, the officer should have seen if your wife was ok and then unloaded the gun. Since a gun was involved, where was her back-up?

erik_26
02-15-2012, 10:00 AM
Unfortunately we live in a day and age where no one can be trusted.

Police have to expect the unexpected. Perhaps your wife shot and killed you. Then to keep the situation under control (cause the neighbors might report shots fired) your wife could call 911 to report the shot as self-defense against an animal thinking the police would think “oh… ok, that explains it. Moving on.”

It is sad but could and probably has happened.

I doubt the officer broke any protocol. It is not easy for good people to be treated like a low life scumbag by the police. There is just no way for the police to know who the good guys are vs. the dirt bags.

By the way, just because the police left without making an arrest or taking the weapon doesn’t mean she is free and clear. It is not likely, but still possible for a district attorney to review the incident and bring charges against her.

paul0660
02-15-2012, 10:02 AM
County Sheriff.

Which county, at what time, and did the deputy leave her card?

winnre
02-15-2012, 10:05 AM
Which county, at what time, and did the deputy leave her card?

San Berdoo, about 30-45 minutes ago. Don't know about a card, didn't ask the wife if she has one, will get more details later.

Californio
02-15-2012, 10:09 AM
10/22 with CCI Stingers would take care of Mr. Coyote, save your hearing, two hands are better than one under stress.

russ69
02-15-2012, 10:11 AM
...One thing she does is fire off a few 10 rnd. mags with no ear protection just as a mental reminder of the bang factor. Then finishes up her morning with the ear protection back on...


Not a good idea. That is more than enough to cause permanent hearing damage.

paul0660
02-15-2012, 10:12 AM
San Berdoo, about 30-45 minutes ago. Don't know about a card, didn't ask the wife if she has one, will get more details later.

Well, not only does the wife need to be able to clear a weapon (especially since she loaded and shot), she needs to get SERVICE out of her civil servants.

DVSmith
02-15-2012, 10:12 AM
911 call re: shots fired - caller claims to shoot at coyote to defend dog.

I wonder what the normal protocol for this is?

winnre
02-15-2012, 10:16 AM
She was still shaky and opted to clear the firearm once she calmed down. She thought the officer was going to do that actually. Anyway firearm is safe.

When she called me I heard the ruckus. She could easily be defending herself as well, with the dog being a short delay in the process. Coyote in my yard = dead coyote to me.

Quinc
02-15-2012, 10:17 AM
149$ at Walmart will get you a .22cal air rifle that will shoot 800+ ft per second. Or for 1200 you can get a .357 air rifle that will take down a hog. Could make for a good time in the back yard.

gl0ckc0ma
02-15-2012, 10:17 AM
It is not likely, but still possible for a district attorney to review the incident and bring charges against her.

Charges of what exactly?

nitrofc
02-15-2012, 10:20 AM
Not a good idea. That is more than enough to cause permanent hearing damage.

I tried to tell her that...but she never listens! :smilielol5:

We only shoot outdoors.....I live 15 minutes from BLM public lands

Helpful_Cub
02-15-2012, 10:20 AM
Sounds like you need a bigger dog and more of them.

erik_26
02-15-2012, 10:21 AM
Charges of what exactly?

Unlawful discharge of a firearm. Not sure defending a dog (which some argue is considered property) is legal.

winnre
02-15-2012, 10:26 AM
149$ at Walmart will get you a .22cal air rifle that will shoot 800+ ft per second. Or for 1200 you can get a .357 air rifle that will take down a hog. Could make for a good time in the back yard.

I have several air rifles, it's the one shot option I don't like.

Unlawful discharge of a firearm. Not sure defending a dog (which some argue is considered property) is legal.

Against a human, no. Against a wild animal... does anyone care?

nitrofc
02-15-2012, 10:29 AM
San Berdoo Sheriffs are fairly flexible here. Not at all like down the hill.
A lot of open land at 5,800 ft. elevation and wild animals are very abundant.

My personal opinion, not a big deal.

JMHO.

CAL.BAR
02-15-2012, 10:30 AM
Then the officer left. Oddly enough, THE OFFICER DID NOT CLEAR THE WEAPON! It still has a round in the chamber and did through the entire investigation process.


Cops (in general) have NO clue about firearms. 20 years ago my parent's home was burglarized. Stolen was my father's USGI .30 cal m1 Carbine as well as a few guns. They actually caught the guys. They actually recovered (some) of the firearms including the m1 which my father kept fully loaded. When my mother was called to the police station to pick up the firearms, the M1 was still fully loaded round in the chamber and mag inserted. (hi cap mag BTW - ah the old says)

Not a single officer ever bothered to check the weapon.

johnthomas
02-15-2012, 10:31 AM
.40 will definitely do it.

My wife owns 2 different size .40's and for her they work real well but she goes out and shoots at least once a month.

One thing she does is fire off a few 10 rnd. mags with no ear protection just as a mental reminder of the bang factor. Then finishes up her morning with the ear protection back on.

Glad to hear she was able to stop the Coyote from hurting your dog real badly.
Maybe this is a good thing to get her out shooting some....she might really enjoy it!
That is great that she trains with her guns, not a good idea to shoot without ear protection. Every round shot without it is doing damage. Please read the link or have her read it. There may be a time she will not hear the threat because of hearing loss.
http://www.nidcd.nih.gov/health/hearing/pages/noise.aspx

Coyotegunner
02-15-2012, 10:33 AM
Everything else aside.Sounds like she needs practice on live targets.I suggest taking her hunting.
A friend up here in my area discharged a shotgun at something getting into his garage.He went back in and started watching TV.No one showed up.
He has had them show up out of the blue,when someone else shot something at night.He got questioned about all the empty brass and hulls laying around the yard.We reload and shoot a lot in the desert.Stuff happens.
Hope your wife recovers and the dog is alright.My friend had his Brittany attacked by 4 of them 5 years ago and the vet alone was over $1300.Up here many small animals are missing.We have lost 2 cats to the food chain.This might happen again to you guys.
Good luck with the police.Hope you guys do not have them start showing up out of the blue.I would probably in your case file a complaint with animal control.They will not do a thing,but it will be on record.

paul0660
02-15-2012, 10:34 AM
Unlawful discharge of a firearm. Not sure defending a dog (which some argue is considered property) is legal.

You were asked about exactly which charges. Do you know if an unlawful discharge law exists?

nitrofc
02-15-2012, 10:35 AM
That is great that she trains with her guns, not a good idea to shoot without ear protection. Every round shot without it is doing damage. Please read the link or have her read it. There may be a time she will not hear the threat because of hearing loss.
http://www.nidcd.nih.gov/health/hearing/pages/noise.aspx

Thanks I'll do that.
Don't get me wrong.....she only does it occasionally....which I do agree...is not good for her ears.

Thanks.

erik_26
02-15-2012, 10:36 AM
Against a human, no. Against a wild animal... does anyone care?

Look, I am just playing devil’s advocate. I am not accusing your wife of committing a crime.

In my mind of logical thinking, if I was the LEO (which I am not a LEO) responding to the call, I would have said too bad you missed the Coyote. Helped her clear the weapon and been on my way to the next call.

We live in a state that is plagued with bad laws. Regardless of whether or not we agree with them, we cannot pick and choose which ones we are subject to.

Likely all is well and there will be nothing else that stems from this. But in the off chance there is, maybe you guys should plan for what to do if charges are brought.

supersonic
02-15-2012, 10:37 AM
Her words of wisdom:
-Guns are LOUD in a backyard with no hearing protection.
-Shooting at a paper target in a controlled and well lit environment is nothing like shooting at a vicious moving animal that is trying to eat your dog.


Words of wisdom? Sounds a lot more like everyday, common knowledge. Especially to someone who lives with firearms;)


I guess I need to find the perfect self defense caliber for coyotes.

There's no such thing as a "perfect self defense caliber."


Then the officer left. Oddly enough, THE OFFICER DID NOT CLEAR THE WEAPON! It still has a round in the chamber and did through the entire investigation process.

She left a gun locked and loaded on the table after she was through using it and the threat was gone? AND knowing strangers (the police) were going to be there in your house within minutes? Really? It sounds like both you & your wife need to take a firearms safety course. Like.........now.

One more question: Did she even alert the LEO(s) to the fact that the handgun on the table was, in fact, loaded with a live round in the chamber?:eek:

myblunt
02-15-2012, 10:43 AM
She left a gun locked and loaded on the table after she was through using it and the threat was gone? AND knowing strangers (the police) were going to be there in your house within minutes? Really? It sounds like both you & your wife need to take a firearms safety course. Like.........now.

One more question: Did she even alert the LEO(s) to the fact that the handgun on the table was, in fact, loaded with a live round in the chamber?:eek:

'bout a day late and a dollar short to this party. don't you know firearms are always loaded? :oji:

POLICESTATE
02-15-2012, 10:43 AM
Sounds to me like the deputy was busy and had better things to do with her time, barged in, took the report and left.

The barging in part seems a little odd to me though.

winnre
02-15-2012, 10:44 AM
Cops (in general) have NO clue about firearms.

HSC cards for everyone!

nitrofc
02-15-2012, 10:47 AM
Sounds to me like the deputy was busy and had better things to do with her time, barged in, took the report and left.

The barging in part seems a little odd to me though.

Given the Location..... IMO, that is most likely right.

erik_26
02-15-2012, 10:50 AM
You were asked about exactly which charges. Do you know if an unlawful discharge law exists?

Can I quote a law? No. I am also not trying to spread FUD.

If you are knowledgable as to a exemption to the law and can quote such exemption, then please do.

As far as I know (I have been wrong before) you can use up to leathal force to stop a threat of great bodily injury or possible death of yourself or another person.

Since the wife was in the house there was no threat to her.

Some argue a dog is considered property. The attacker was not another human.

How this all plays out is beyond me.


I understand the desire to protect your pets. But I also know that what most of us would conderser a reasonable action could be condemmed by the great state of california, the county or even the city.

winnre
02-15-2012, 10:52 AM
She left a gun locked and loaded on the table after she was through using it and the threat was gone? AND knowing strangers (the police) were going to be there in your house within minutes? Really? It sounds like both you & your wife need to take a firearms safety course. Like.........now.

One more question: Did she even alert the LEO(s) to the fact that the handgun on the table was, in fact, loaded with a live round in the chamber?:eek:


I was not there. Wife was shaken and scared, NOT the time to try to clear a weapon, you'll shoot your leg. Next best option is to get away from the gun, loaded or not. Even a police officer will have his gun taken from him right after a shooting. If she was not comfortable clearing the gun then I don't want her near it. She DID clear it when she calmed down. Never handle a gun when you are a bag of nerves!

She had planned to talk to the officer at the door first but the officer took charge and it was more of an interrogation. Oh well, officer messed up.

Matt C
02-15-2012, 10:52 AM
Just get one of these dogs, I don't think you would have any more coyote problems....

http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/images15/IrishWolfhoundFrankBrendan.JPG

Bruce
02-15-2012, 10:55 AM
FWIW

246.3. (a) Except as otherwise authorized by law, any person who
willfully discharges a firearm in a grossly negligent manner which
could result in injury or death to a person is guilty of a public
offense and shall be punished by imprisonment in a county jail not
exceeding one year, or by imprisonment pursuant to subdivision (h) of
Section 1170.
(b) Except as otherwise authorized by law, any person who
willfully discharges a BB device in a grossly negligent manner which
could result in injury or death to a person is guilty of a public
offense and shall be punished by imprisonment in a county jail not
exceeding one year.
(c) As used in this section, "BB device" means any instrument that
expels a projectile, such as a BB or a pellet, through the force of
air pressure, gas pressure, or spring action.

Peter W Bush
02-15-2012, 11:01 AM
Words of wisdom? Sounds a lot more like everyday, common knowledge. Especially to someone who lives with firearms;)




There's no such thing as a "perfect self defense caliber."




She left a gun locked and loaded on the table after she was through using it and the threat was gone? AND knowing strangers (the police) were going to be there in your house within minutes? Really? It sounds like both you & your wife need to take a firearms safety course. Like.........now.

One more question: Did she even alert the LEO(s) to the fact that the handgun on the table was, in fact, loaded with a live round in the chamber?:eek:

I've picked up my loaded 30-06 when I suspected somebody was in my store after I closed. I called the police and told them I have a rifle. They walked up to my door, asked me to put the rifle down and let them in, and they cleared the store. One of the Sgts asked me if it was loaded and I said of course. He said "just do us a favor and don't even touch it until were a mile away." Nobody touched my rifle at all. And this was in Sherman Oaks.

paul0660
02-15-2012, 11:04 AM
If you are knowledgable as to a exemption to the law and can quote such exemption, then please do.

LOL eric, ME supply an exemption to a law YOU can't quote?

Good job Bruce. She didn't break the law you cited.

wikioutdoor
02-15-2012, 11:05 AM
The female sheriffs in san bernadino that I have met are almost always quite arrogant when it comes to firearms or most other things. I don't know if they are treated like grunts to do leg work or if the ones I know are all just short angry types. But I have seen them make alot of bad judgement calls and on occasion brag about them. Like one that arrested a kid in possession of an unloaded hi cap mag on her face book page of all places. Another one here likes to drive while texting and has almost cut down a few of my coworkers in the cross walk and apparently from what I am told almost ran over another cop too. I doubt they are all like this but I wouldn't know based on the ones I have met personally.

As far as the loaded weapon after what happened I can understand a lapse in judgment especially if she was scared. I am sure she won't do it again. But the cop is a professional and should have handled the situation professionally.

bloodhawke83
02-15-2012, 11:07 AM
Depends on your area, I'd get a can of bear spray for animals. I'll read the thread later.

winnre
02-15-2012, 11:07 AM
FWIW

246.3. (a) Except as otherwise authorized by law, any person who
willfully discharges a firearm in a grossly negligent manner which
could result in injury or death to a person is guilty of a public
offense and shall be punished by imprisonment in a county jail not
exceeding one year, or by imprisonment pursuant to subdivision (h) of
Section 1170.
(b) Except as otherwise authorized by law, any person who
willfully discharges a BB device in a grossly negligent manner which
could result in injury or death to a person is guilty of a public
offense and shall be punished by imprisonment in a county jail not
exceeding one year.
(c) As used in this section, "BB device" means any instrument that
expels a projectile, such as a BB or a pellet, through the force of
air pressure, gas pressure, or spring action.


Oh my that's quite something! She knows to be aware of her backstop, and in this case the backstop was the ground and a 50 foot hill behind that, all my property. But great find there on the law!

Javi
02-15-2012, 11:08 AM
I'm thinking of setting up the Ruger 10/22 for multiple taps for her, and the Winchester 30/30 for me. I may even carry it in the trunk.



I think that's an excellent idea. Maybe you both should get lever actions in either pistol or rifle ammo calibers. Glad your wife's okay, hope your dog is(haven't read the whole thread)

winnre
02-15-2012, 11:10 AM
Depends on your area, I'd get a can of bear spray for animals. I'll read the thread later.

We do have bear spray but don't exactly want to approach the animal to use it. That's more for when they are approaching us.

Now that she has calmed down she can look back and see that it is self defense for the entire household. She was indeed in fear.

nitrofc
02-15-2012, 11:14 AM
FWIW

246.3. (a) Except as otherwise authorized by law, any person who
willfully discharges a firearm in a grossly negligent manner which
could result in injury or death to a person is guilty of a public
offense and shall be punished by imprisonment in a county jail not
exceeding one year, or by imprisonment pursuant to subdivision (h) of
Section 1170.
(b) Except as otherwise authorized by law, any person who
willfully discharges a BB device in a grossly negligent manner which
could result in injury or death to a person is guilty of a public
offense and shall be punished by imprisonment in a county jail not
exceeding one year.
(c) As used in this section, "BB device" means any instrument that
expels a projectile, such as a BB or a pellet, through the force of
air pressure, gas pressure, or spring action.

San Bernardino County:
ORDINANCE NO. 4117
AN ORDINANCE OF THE COUNTY OF SAN BERNARDINO, STATE OF
CALIFORNIA, AMENDING CHAPTER 1 OF DIVISION 2 OF
TITLE 2 OF THE SAN BERNARDINO COUNTY CODE,
RELATING TO FIREARMS

22.0107 Exemptions

The provisions of this Chapter shall not apply to any peace officer in the regular discharge of his or her duties; nor to any officers or employees of the County of San Bernardino acting in their official capacity or within the scope of their employment upon County property in compliance with all applicable laws, rules and regulations governing the use of firearms and with the approval of the Board of Supervisors of the County of San Bernardino; nor to persons engaged in the protection of crops or livestock; nor to any
contest conducted by and under the supervision of a bona fide rifle or pistol organization at a public shooting gallery or rifle and pistol range; nor to discharge of bow and arrows at any archery course or rifles or pistols at any rifle or pistol range, provided that the location and construction of such public gallery or such rifle and pistol range or archery course
must first be approved by the Board of Supervisors of the County of San Bernardino, State of California, and provided further that approval of any such public shooting gallery or rifle and pistol range or archery course may be canceled by said Board whenever in its judgment public safety or welfare may require such cancellation; nor shall the provisions of this Chapter apply to any person in the due protection of life or property.

dogs are considered property under the law.

bloodhawke83
02-15-2012, 11:20 AM
We do have bear spray but don't exactly want to approach the animal to use it. That's more for when they are approaching us.

Now that she has calmed down she can look back and see that it is self defense for the entire household. She was indeed in fear.

She needs more practice and some self-defense classes like Taekwondo, she needs used to be attacked.

Once in a while, my brother will bump into the bedroom wall while he is sleeping and from my room it sounds like a break-in. As soon as I wake up, I am already clearing the house. Takes me hours to calm down, that adrenaline rush has me pumped up. I guess my point is, she needs to be used to that adrenaline rush and needs muscle memory of defending herself.

ubet
02-15-2012, 11:47 AM
Can I quote a law? No. I am also not trying to spread FUD.

If you are knowledgable as to a exemption to the law and can quote such exemption, then please do.

As far as I know (I have been wrong before) you can use up to leathal force to stop a threat of great bodily injury or possible death of yourself or another person.

Since the wife was in the house there was no threat to her.

Some argue a dog is considered property. The attacker was not another human.

How this all plays out is beyond me.


I understand the desire to protect your pets. But I also know that what most of us would conderser a reasonable action could be condemmed by the great state of california, the county or even the city.

I am not sure about coyotes, but she WOULD be in a world of $h!t if it had been a mountain lion. You can only kill mountain lions if they are attacking humans or livestock, dogs are classified as pets.

paul0660
02-15-2012, 11:48 AM
I am not sure about coyotes, but she WOULD be in a world of $h!t if it had been a mountain lion. You can only kill mountain lions if they are attacking humans or livestock, dogs are classified as pets.

Begs a citation quote. Meaning, prove what you say.

winnre
02-15-2012, 11:49 AM
She needs more practice and some self-defense classes like Taekwondo, she needs used to be attacked.


I searched YouTube and found no videos on using Taekwondo to protect against coyotes.

winnre
02-15-2012, 11:51 AM
I am not sure about coyotes, but she WOULD be in a world of $h!t if it had been a mountain lion. You can only kill mountain lions if they are attacking humans or livestock, dogs are classified as pets.

The County told us if it has fur you can kill it in defense of people, dogs, or cattle. The kill must be swift so no slow acting poison.

I'd never attack an animal minding its own business but I wonder about coyotes now.

nitrofc
02-15-2012, 12:03 PM
I am not sure about coyotes, but she WOULD be in a world of $h!t if it had been a mountain lion. You can only kill mountain lions if they are attacking humans or livestock, dogs are classified as pets.

Under a Federal Ruling "Pets" are property, under the Constitution.
That would apply to Dogs.
Look it up.

winnre
02-15-2012, 12:06 PM
That called hunting :) There is a reason the coytoe season is all year, all day and night. Just sayin.

But hunting in a residential area is probably not the norm. Then again I have never hunted for sport, hmmm time to look it up!

winnre
02-15-2012, 12:14 PM
Hunting rules where I live:

Closed to all shooting except shotguns firing shot no larger than 1/2 the diameter of the bore.

Well that sucks.

liketoshoot
02-15-2012, 12:30 PM
I'm in your area of the woods (big bear) we deal with the problem animals as needed, yotes and 'coons are all over and the bear lives up the street (he/she's never been a problem).
It's the damm tree huger that are more of an issue.

bloodhawke83
02-15-2012, 12:33 PM
I searched YouTube and found no videos on using Taekwondo to protect against coyotes.

No, no for animals but overcome fear factor of something bigger then you are. You can just skip Taekwondo and go straight to firearm defense classes.

ubet
02-15-2012, 12:39 PM
Begs a citation quote. Meaning, prove what you say.
This is the first thing I found using google
http://www.dfg.ca.gov/keepmewild/docs/lionbrochure.pdf

Second item found
§ 4807. Immediate taking of mountain lion encountered while injuring or killing livestock or domestic animals; Report

(a) Any mountain lion that is encountered while in the act of pursuing, inflicting injury to, or killing livestock, or domestic animals, may be taken immediately by the owner of the property or the owner's employee or agent. The taking shall be reported within 72 hours to the department. The department shall investigate the depredation, and, if the mountain lion was captured, injured, or killed, the mountain lion or the entire carcass of the mountain lion which has been recovered shall be turned over to the department. Upon satisfactorily completing the investigation and receiving the mountain lion or the carcass, if recovered, the department shall issue a permit confirming that the requirements of this section have been met with respect to the particular mountain lion taken under these circumstances.

(b) The department shall undertake a complete necropsy on any returned mountain lion carcass and report the findings to the commission. The commission shall compile the reported findings and prepare an annual written report that shall be submitted to the Legislature not later than the January 15 next following the year in which the mountain lion was taken.

CREDIT(S)

(Added by Initiative Measure (Prop. 117, § 6), approved June 5, 1990.)

http://www.animallaw.info/statutes/stuscacalfishgcode4800.htm#4807

It says you can shoot if they are killing livestock, and domestic animals I dont know if that means pets or not. I just tried calling fish and game and asking them about it, but just got answering machines.

The first link does say you shoot them for killing pets, but a depredation permit has to be issued first, but you can shoot before you have a depredation permit if its taking livestock.

ubet
02-15-2012, 12:43 PM
The County told us if it has fur you can kill it in defense of people, dogs, or cattle. The kill must be swift so no slow acting poison.

I'd never attack an animal minding its own business but I wonder about coyotes now.

The hold up I had always heard was dogs. Shooting coyotes, no one is gonna care about either way, as long as you arent in downtown SF.

nitrofc
02-15-2012, 12:51 PM
Ubet...

A Dog is first on the list of Domestic Animals.

paul0660
02-15-2012, 12:53 PM
Ubet, thank you for finding that citation.

Pets are domestic animals, so it seems this is would be a good shoot even if it were a mountain lion. Mountain lions certainly do enjoy more protection than the average predator, but the main point of that statute is that the killing be reported, I think.

winnre
02-15-2012, 12:55 PM
Just googled Depredation permits for my county and got this:

LEGAL STATUS
Coyotes and feral dogs are classified as nongame mammals by the Department of Fish and Game and may be taken at any time using approved methods.

nitrofc
02-15-2012, 1:03 PM
I'm in your area of the woods (big bear) we deal with the problem animals as needed, yotes and 'coons are all over and the bear lives up the street (he/she's never been a problem).
It's the damm tree huger that are more of an issue.

I think I know of the Bear your talking about.
On the far east part of town right near S.L.?

Mikeb
02-15-2012, 1:05 PM
'bout a day late and a dollar short to this party. don't you know firearms are always loaded? :oji:

They taught me that when looking at guns with other folk the "polite routine" is I clear the weapon and hand it to you, then you clear it to make sure.
Take care
Mike

ElvenSoul
02-15-2012, 1:08 PM
+1 on a 22! I have killed a lot of yotes with just that. Get a good 22 Single Action Revolver. When I lived out in Yucca Valley used to keep 22 Mini Mag Cylinder loaded just outside the gun. Took but a second to snap in.

paul0660
02-15-2012, 1:08 PM
They taught me that when looking at guns with other folk the "polite routine" is I clear the weapon and hand it to you, then you clear it to make sure.
Take care
Mike

I look at it like making change. Once out of a hundred times the cashier makes a mistake. I point it out, he/she apologizes, I say "that is why there are two of us".

bambam8d1
02-15-2012, 1:11 PM
San Berdoo Sheriffs are fairly flexible here. Not at all like down the hill.
A lot of open land at 5,800 ft. elevation and wild animals are very abundant.

My personal opinion, not a big deal.

JMHO.

ha Im from the IE, and down the hill... LEOs definately not so flexible out there. Although gunshots in neighborhoods are more common probably. And usually not at wild animals.

bambam8d1
02-15-2012, 1:16 PM
I searched YouTube and found no videos on using Taekwondo to protect against coyotes.

I know have my weekend activity... :43:
now I only need two buddies to help, someone to do the coyote call and one to film...

winnre
02-15-2012, 1:18 PM
Well with a 12g that includes 00 buck and my fave #4 buck. You don't have to be in your neighborhood either, if they are close to you in the national forest thin the numbers there and encourage your pack to take that freed up space.

Odd but I feel better walking around with a lever action than a shotgun. At least I can camouflage both.

nitrofc
02-15-2012, 1:20 PM
ha Im from the IE, and down the hill... LEOs definately not so flexible out there. Although gunshots in neighborhoods are more common probably. And usually not at wild animals.

You have to mind your P's & Q's from both directions.
No doubt about that.

pc_load_letter
02-15-2012, 1:33 PM
Interesting thread. I am in the El Cajon area of San Diego and have seen coyotes running around our neighborhood as late as 9-10am. I think there is a den in the ditch behind our house.

Wondering what I should get for my wife. We have two small dogs but thankfully they are not out at night. THey do go out late and early to go potty.

winnre
02-15-2012, 1:35 PM
I realize I live in coyote country and accept that. I don't really care when the bears eat the trash either. But when they come onto my built up property they have crossed a line.

supersonic
02-15-2012, 2:02 PM
'bout a day late and a dollar short to this party. don't you know firearms are always loaded? :oji:

I won't even answer that ridiculous question. However, there was still no excuse for that gun to be locked & loaded out in the open and nobody was even made aware of that fact.

The barging in part seems a little odd to me though.

Yeah, that seemed a little "far-fetched" to me as well. ;)

I was not there. Wife was shaken and scared, NOT the time to try to clear a weapon, you'll shoot your leg. If she was not comfortable clearing the gun then I don't want her near it.


Then maybe pepper spray would be a much safer alternative in this particular household. Just sayin'.

winnre
02-15-2012, 2:20 PM
see below
However, there was still no excuse for that gun to be locked & loaded out in the open and nobody was even made aware of that fact.

The officer started throwing questions, she simply answered them. I really though the officer would check the firearm in any case!

Yeah, that seemed a little "far-fetched" to me as well. ;)

No idea what was in the officer's mind. Next time I'll have her wait on the front porch and have the house doors locked. If there is a next time.

Then maybe pepper spray would be a much safer alternative in this particular household. Just sayin'.

It is possible to have a threat more than 8-10 feet away from you. I may think of pepper spray with people or the bear spray with bears, and there is dog spray for dogs, and the powers that be don't like you messing with using the wrong sprays. Enough pepper spray to zap a coyote can also do a number on my dog, who has asthma and is a very small puppy. Sometimes the cure can be worse than the symptoms.

cxr
02-15-2012, 2:27 PM
Well the officer showed up. Interesting moment. Per my wife, the officer, as female, knocked on the door, when my wife opened the door the officer barged right on in, no hello or anything, just pushed her aside and walked in. The gun was in the kitchen and the officer asked if this was the one used, she said yes. The officer then said, "Since you discharged a firearm we will have to write a report, plus we have to run a background check on the gun, and we have to run a background check on you." The officer then walked around the kitchen seeing what she can see, such as papers on the counter and notes on the fridge, being a very nosy snoop. The officer asked questions about me and seemed satisfied with my background, yet still looked twice at my wife while getting the pistol information.

Then the officer left. Oddly enough, THE OFFICER DID NOT CLEAR THE WEAPON! It still has a round in the chamber and did through the entire investigation process.

I guess it all came back fine because the wife and the gun are still at the house.

I am unaware of police protocol in these matters. Is walking in uninvited some sort of tactic or procedure? I'd have not expected it for sure.

i Thought i read a thread on here if you wer at home cleaning your gun and you had a ND.

instead of making a big fuss about it. take a look around to make sure you did not hit anyone through a wall. put all your guns away aand then act like nothing has happened.

whats the difference here? did you really need to call 911. im guessing she did not hit the coyote.

winnre
02-15-2012, 2:30 PM
did you really need to call 911. im guessing she did not hit the coyote.

Probably not, looking back. But what if cops came snooping around, guns drawn, because the shot was reported coming from my house? Lie? Play dumb?

I can see ignoring an AD if possible but this was an intentional and arranged discharge of a firearm. I stand behind the decision and don't see any negligence or irresponsibility.

Librarian
02-15-2012, 3:35 PM
Not a good idea. That is more than enough to cause permanent hearing damage.

+1 - no need to do that repeatedly. Really, no need to do that deliberately at all. This is one of the things I believe one should accept from the experience of others.

waho
02-15-2012, 3:36 PM
That's when you tell them about the coyote. No sense in broadcasting something which may have gone unrecorded.

cannon
02-15-2012, 3:54 PM
Probably not, looking back. But what if cops came snooping around, guns drawn, because the shot was reported coming from my house? Lie? Play dumb?

I can see ignoring an AD if possible but this was an intentional and arranged discharge of a firearm. I stand behind the decision and don't see any negligence or irresponsibility.

One shot is a backfire. Folks pause for a moment and wait to see if there are more. If no other shots they shrug and go on about what they were doing.

If police do show up then explain what happened telling the truth.

Glad to hear the wife and dog are O.K.

mag360
02-15-2012, 4:01 PM
holy over reaction by your wife batman! 1 shot? Go inside, put the gun away, make a sandwich, go shopping, huh? What discharge, di'int hear nuthin.

paul0660
02-15-2012, 4:11 PM
But what if cops came snooping around, guns drawn, because the shot was reported coming from my house? Lie? Play dumb?

Well, yeah.

Tarn_Helm
02-15-2012, 4:13 PM
Well the officer showed up. Interesting moment. Per my wife, the officer, as female, knocked on the door, when my wife opened the door the officer barged right on in, no hello or anything, just pushed her aside and walked in. The gun was in the kitchen and the officer asked if this was the one used, she said yes. The officer then said, "Since you discharged a firearm we will have to write a report, plus we have to run a background check on the gun, and we have to run a background check on you." The officer then walked around the kitchen seeing what she can see, such as papers on the counter and notes on the fridge, being a very nosy snoop. The officer asked questions about me and seemed satisfied with my background, yet still looked twice at my wife while getting the pistol information.

Then the officer left. Oddly enough, THE OFFICER DID NOT CLEAR THE WEAPON! It still has a round in the chamber and did through the entire investigation process.

I guess it all came back fine because the wife and the gun are still at the house.

I am unaware of police protocol in these matters. Is walking in uninvited some sort of tactic or procedure? I'd have not expected it for sure.

The way that was handled is very slipshod and haphazard.

If I were you I would ask for a copy of the report, just to make sure that there is some correspondence between it and reality.

:rant:

GrizzlyGuy
02-15-2012, 4:41 PM
Just googled Depredation permits for my county and got this:

LEGAL STATUS
Coyotes and feral dogs are classified as nongame mammals by the Department of Fish and Game and may be taken at any time using approved methods.

Coyotes can be taken at any time by someone with a hunting license or a depradation permit. If your wife has neither and the DA is a real arse, he could come after her for hunting without a license (http://www.fgc.ca.gov/regulations/current/mammalregs.aspx#700):

(b) Possession of Hunting License: Every person, while engaged in taking any bird or mammal Shall have on their person or in their immediate possession a valid hunting license.

liketoshoot
02-15-2012, 4:45 PM
I think I know of the Bear your talking about.
On the far east part of town right near S.L.?

nope, we got a mama and 2 cubs right now, but as it is snowing they aren't bothering us right now, I'm near the middle school.

nitrofc
02-15-2012, 4:56 PM
nope, we got a mama and 2 cubs right now, but as it is snowing they aren't bothering us right now, I'm near the middle school.

Ahhh! Our Building inspector mentioned his daughter has a daily visitor in her backyard in the S.L. area. No threat...just hangs out.

Pushing 4-5" of new on my end of town.
Over by Meadowbrook off Hwy 38.

I do have a small herd of Wild Donkeys that roam the streets.
Real Characters!

theduece
02-15-2012, 7:28 PM
I am really not understanding the people who are getting upset over the weapon remaining loaded. These are the same folks who say that they always are locked and loaded...

Your wife did the right thing. She shot, got nervous, put it down when the threat was done. It is not going to just go off by itself. Why would the SO clear it? Your gun you legally own. It can be locked and loaded. IMHO unless you have kids around, when you and/or your wife are home that is exactly the way it should be.

stitchnicklas
02-15-2012, 8:21 PM
i am out of town now too..

my wife had me chamber both my sig 40 cal equinox and my xd45 before i left so she had ready to go defense,no one else is around to endanger themselves....
i feel sorta sorry fur anyone that comes to my house now...

707electrician
02-15-2012, 9:24 PM
I won't even answer that ridiculous question. However, there was still no excuse for that gun to be locked & loaded out in the open and nobody was even made aware of that fact.

I fail to see what the problem is with having a loaded gun in your house

dmcag69
02-15-2012, 9:43 PM
Since we can't have suppressors, Crossbow with red dot and expanding arrows would be better than bear spray on private property. Practice. Silent and deadly. Personally, just bury the dead coyote if you do take its life, don't call anybody, every dept has it's Barney Fifes. Sometimes doing the law abiding thing is sometimes not the best thing. Dogs are family, they should not be labeled as property if we pay the government for their dog tags every year.

831Shooter
02-16-2012, 12:04 AM
Coyotes can be taken at any time by someone with a hunting license or a depradation permit. If your wife has neither and the DA is a real arse, he could come after her for hunting without a license (http://www.fgc.ca.gov/regulations/current/mammalregs.aspx#700):

100% NOT TRUE!

Coyotes are considered non-game mammals.

The Fish and Game Code regarding licenses is 3007:

3007. Except as provided in this code or regulations adopted
pursuant thereto, every person who takes any bird or mammal shall
procure a license or entitlement therefor.

There is a clear exception to this for non-game mammals (and some other species) when doing damage to crops and property:


4152. (a) Except as provided in Section 4005, nongame mammals and
black-tailed jackrabbits, muskrats, subspecies of red fox that are
not the native Sierra Nevada red fox (Vulpes vulpes necator), and red
fox squirrels that are found to be injuring growing crops or other
property may be taken at any time or in any manner in accordance with
this code and regulations adopted pursuant to this code by the owner
or tenant of the premises or employees and agents in immediate
possession of written permission from the owner or tenant thereof.
They may also be taken by officers or employees of the Department of
Food and Agriculture or by federal, county, or city officers or
employees when acting in their official capacities pursuant to the
Food and Agricultural Code pertaining to pests, or pursuant to
Article 6 (commencing with Section 6021) of Chapter 9 of Part 1 of
Division 4 of the Food and Agricultural Code. Persons taking mammals
in accordance with this section are exempt from Section 3007, except
when providing trapping services for a fee. Raw furs, as defined in
Section 4005, that are taken under this section, shall not be sold.


There are some exceptions regarding game animals as well, but I am too lazy to look them up.

I have spoken with Fish and Game at length about this and was told I was perfectly fine to take the mammals that were causing damage to my property.

winnre
02-16-2012, 12:16 AM
Okay home now and have more information for the saga here.

1. Officer was told the gun was still loaded, she did not care, even picked up the gun and flipped it over to get the serial number. When she flipped it, the barel pointed right at my wife who thought "This dumb bunny is going to kill me."

2. Officer was a huge woman with her bra strap holding her together and a coat that could not close no matter what. We're talking Large Marge.

3. No business card was left.

4. When my wife said she was scared of the coyote the officer said "Well what do you expect. You live in the mountains."

5. When the officer left she griped about the steep driveway. It's about 85 feet long and climbs about 25 feet in the process.

6. Looking at the animal prints it was not a coyote. Going through images of various animals fitting the description it appears the animal was a gray wolf. If so, they are endangered and I have no idea if self defense is still a good reason per this tree hugger state.

Bobby Ricigliano
02-16-2012, 2:43 AM
1. Glad wife and dog are o.k.

2. There should be no 'charges'. This doesn't sound like negligent discharge to me. Your wife could easily articulate that SHE felt threatened by the coyote. If the round caused collateral damage to someone else's property you would be responsible civilly. If the round went into your yard harmlessly you have no issue.

3. Running a check on people and firearms at a call is pretty standard. The particular department's policy and field
supervisors would detrrmine whether a report was needed.

supersonic
02-16-2012, 6:58 AM
I fail to see what the problem is with having a loaded gun in your house

No, what you are failing to see is why there is a problem with leaving a loaded gun out in the open and unsecured in your house. BIG difference here.

GrizzlyGuy
02-16-2012, 7:00 AM
There is a clear exception to this for non-game mammals (and some other species) when doing damage to crops and property:

Good info, I wasn't aware of F&G 4152 (http://law.onecle.com/california/fish/4152.html). One more item to add to my 500+ page notes file regarding firearm laws.

winnre
02-16-2012, 7:11 AM
No, what you are failing to see is why there is a problem with leaving a loaded gun out in the open and unsecured in your house. BIG difference here.

And you seem to think that touching a gun while in a tizzy is better than simply leaving it in a room and leaving the room.

theduece
02-16-2012, 8:54 AM
No, what you are failing to see is why there is a problem with leaving a loaded gun out in the open and unsecured in your house. BIG difference here.

What exactly is the problem of leaving a gun out in the open inside of one's house? Are not all gun's presumed loaded? And other than a fancy rock what good is an unloaded gun?

And you seem to think that touching a gun while in a tizzy is better than simply leaving it in a room and leaving the room.

IMHO she did the best possible thing. Took care of the threat, SAFELY put gun down INSIDE of HER OWN HOME.

With the adrenaline dump that was going through her that was a very wise choice she made.

If she was leaving for the day I could see that locking things back up would be the prudent thing to do.

masameet
02-16-2012, 9:20 AM
I was not there. Wife was shaken and scared, NOT the time to try to clear a weapon, you'll shoot your leg. Next best option is to get away from the gun, loaded or not. Even a police officer will have his gun taken from him right after a shooting. If she was not comfortable clearing the gun then I don't want her near it. She DID clear it when she calmed down. Never handle a gun when you are a bag of nerves!

She had planned to talk to the officer at the door first but the officer took charge and it was more of an interrogation. Oh well, officer messed up.

Ask your wife instead of feeling scared the next time, if she could get angry and determined to kill that varmint. She needs to take charge instead of react.

paul0660
02-16-2012, 9:24 AM
to get the serial number

stop right there...........WHY?

mag360
02-16-2012, 9:52 AM
i am out of town now too..

my wife had me chamber both my sig 40 cal equinox and my xd45 before i left so she had ready to go defense,no one else is around to endanger themselves....
i feel sorta sorry fur anyone that comes to my house now...

she can't "chamber" a gun on her own? Does she know the end with the hole in it goes toward the bad guy?

831Shooter
02-16-2012, 10:42 AM
Good info, I wasn't aware of F&G 4152 (http://law.onecle.com/california/fish/4152.html). One more item to add to my 500+ page notes file regarding firearm laws.

Tell me about it..

I came upon this issue when we had some pest management issues.. We live in the unincorporated part of the county, but still in a no-shoot zone. My county does however allow for the discharge of air guns in the unincorporated county. I do hunt and have my hunting license and it took going through a slew of F&G employees before I could get an answer..

I can not "hunt" on my property because of the F&G code regarding discharging a "firearm or other deadly weapon" within 150 yards of a residence". However, the head warden stated that any taking done as pest management is not hunting and not done under the authority of my hunting license. It falls under 4152. As long as there were no county regulations against the discharge of air guns, I was good to go..

Another silly CA code.. So I can legally shoot my air rifles all I want at targets. I can take pest animals with my air rifles. But I can not "hunt" any animals on my property, because that would be unsafe.. :rolleyes:

Literally, even the same animal. If a ground squirrel is causing damage I can legally shoot and kill it with my air rifle. If that same ground squirrel is being "hunted" all of a sudden I can not shoot and kill it. The safety issue does not change because of the reason for taking.

winnre
02-16-2012, 10:57 AM
Ask your wife instead of feeling scared the next time, if she could get angry and determined to kill that varmint. She needs to take charge instead of react.

She knows that now. It's her first home defense shooting, I guess there is no teacher like experience!


stop right there...........WHY?

I have no idea, it's not like the wolf filed a complaint. Teaches me to NOT call the cops in this case!

paul0660
02-16-2012, 11:16 AM
Teaches me to NOT call the cops in this case!

Well, yeah. See post #95.

btw the appearance of the officer had nothing to do with it. Her actions did.

Vanguard
02-16-2012, 11:32 AM
I don't know if I would have called to report the shot. You're only inviting trouble by inviting the cops to come to your house.

I probably would have went back in and acted like nothing happened. It could have been a firecracker for all the neighbors knew.

theduece
02-16-2012, 11:46 AM
she can't "chamber" a gun on her own? Does she know the end with the hole in it goes toward the bad guy?

I know and have met many women who do not have the necessary grip strength to rack a slide. They all know which end to point at the bad guy. Also they have been instructed IF threatened, point, squeeze, and continue to squeeze and release untill the point you are at is either:

A: no longer feel threatened by the bleeding carcass or
B: the squeeze and release does NOT make a BIG boom.
If occurance A happens simply lay the weapon down on the table. Call PD and lawyer. In that order. Say nothing of any relevance other than I was attacked. Attacker is bleeding out on my floor. To anyone without speaking to counsel. If occurance B happens and the threat is still immediate use gun as a blunt object beating other person. then RUN away.

Teaches me to NOT call the cops in this case!

In your shoes, I would not have. there was no crime. There was no need for a response.

winnre
02-20-2012, 8:44 AM
Last night the wolf came back, That sucker is HUGE!!! I have never seen such a massive (and beautiful) animal in my life. It tried to jump the 6-foot fence from the hill side and of course running up a hill to jump a fence is not the way to do it. Had he walked around there is a 3-foot gate he can easily leap. My wife was upset that she had not killed it the last time it came by. The animal has no fear of sprinklers or lights with sensors.

I came in and got my 30-30 rifle, when I went back out he was gone. LOTS of footprints in the snow around the house. He has been walking around a while. I will call animal control tomorrow and let them know.

The wife agreed that it is time to get cozy with a firearm. Today I will empty the safe and let her get touchy feel with unloaded guns to see what fits her hand and fits her comfort level. if she finds nothing then we will go to Turner's and look at other options.

Last night we did look at rifles and shew likes the S&W MP15 the best with it's Eotech site, forward grip, and ease of operation. Sadly the addition of the BULLET BUTTON makes it something that I do not recommend for home defense as if she runs out of ammo it can be drama enough to change a magazine never mind try a tiny tool on a black rifle in the dark.

I'm thinking a 20ga semiauto may do the trick for her, one of the youth-sized models with a shorter stock. She held my Mossberg 500 and her left hand was stretched all the way forward to just barely reach the foregrip. Even if all she can carry is a .32 I'd rather have her have that than nothing.

She says now when the kids are climbing trees she will need to watch them. She does anyway but not so much for defense as for falling down and other kid stuff. I let hr know I am always looking at her and the kids in a defensive measure. Home invasion, drive-by, you name it, I am aware. This is all new to her. She is willing to accept it but she wishes to be properly prepared.

We reviewed the CA laws regarding possession of a firearm on public streets in case she is out for a walk or getting the mail and such and she wishes to stay legal. It's a bit confusing but she will tend to be conservative. we are not going out on the hunt but after seeing the size of the animal I'll have something more than a .45 at arm's reach while it is still out there.

QRAZON
02-20-2012, 8:56 AM
Wow that's pretty crazy hopefully your dog is ok

mjmagee67
02-20-2012, 8:58 AM
I searched YouTube and found no videos on using Taekwondo to protect against coyotes.

That is the funniest thing I have seen in a while!!!:43:

Hope the dog was fine too, pets are family and people too, just ask them!!

Nathan Krynn
02-20-2012, 9:14 AM
The officer then said, "Since you discharged a firearm we will have to write a report, plus we have to run a background check on the gun, and we have to run a background check on you."


I guess it all came back fine because the wife and the gun are still at the house.



Here is what drives me nuts working in the industry and around police.

The "background check" on the gun is called a trace. They traced it from the manufacturer to each transfer to you. For instance from S&W to the local gun dealer to you.

Now that trace is what the Brady campaign and other anti-gun organizations use as the basis for their guns committed in a crime and other stats which if you look are false (like this as this was not a crime but a trace was done).

What makes it worse is that some states/counties have made it policy to trace all of one kind of weapon or incident to increase the trace numbers.

Now the BATFE has said numerous times not to use these traces as crime indicators but these anti-gun organizations do anyway.

Kruzr
02-20-2012, 9:18 AM
A wolf? If so, you have made only the second sighting of a wild wolf in Calif. since 1924. Quick, alert CNN.

You may want to give the folks at the Wolf Center in Julian a call.

winnre
02-20-2012, 9:24 AM
A wolf? If so, you have made only the second sighting of a wild wolf in Calif. since 1924. Quick, alert CNN.

You may want to give the folks at the Wolf Center in Julian a call.

Picture a Siberian husky. Huge haunches. Rounded ears. Gray and white coat. Now make him bigger and bushier. What else do I have here, a bigfoot? If it tries to get in my yard again it'll get lead poisoning.

anthonyca
02-20-2012, 9:27 AM
I thought the only wolf in California was the one that crossed in from the north. Is it recognized by fish and game that wolves are still here?

I'm not doubting you, it's a serious question.

winnre
02-20-2012, 9:35 AM
I have bears, raccoons, coyotes, squirrels, even a mountain lion hangs out up here. Time to charge the camera too!

Turbinator
02-20-2012, 9:45 AM
My town is a mile long and has a population of 107. The closest neighbor cannot be hit with a bow and arrow. We're surrounded by national forest on all sides. But we have coyotes, bears, and a mountain lion. We had tons of mice some months ago, I was catching a dozen a night. Now there's no mice and plenty coyote.

Given this, just curious, in hindsight, was it really necessary to call 911 to report the discharge of the firearm? Seems like folks in your area might be target shooters anyway, and shooting on your own land is likely no big deal. Right?

Turby

winnre
02-20-2012, 9:52 AM
Given this, just curious, in hindsight, was it really necessary to call 911 to report the discharge of the firearm? Seems like folks in your area might be target shooters anyway, and shooting on your own land is likely no big deal. Right?

Turby


The officer who responded was perturbed so we will not call the cops again for using a firearm any more than for using a blender. We had a murder here some years ago an with our low population do you have any idea what that does to our per capita murder rate? I even heard a LA disc jockey on KFI radio refer to us as a "town full of murderers." That's fine, it keeps traffic down.

zfields
02-20-2012, 10:02 AM
Wow this thread got crapped on by a few people hard.


OP. I think you wife did just fine. It was safer for her to leave the firearm loaded in her condition. She notified the officer it was loaded, she kept it away from her to keep show she wasnt a threat to the officer. Sham on the cop for point it at her like a 'tard.

Id consider a lever gun in 38/357, or a 9mm carbine. Both moderate recoil, easy shooting.
Best of luck keeping you family (yourself, wife, and the pups!) safe.

Got Stuff?
02-20-2012, 10:54 AM
The officer who responded was perturbed so we will not call the cops again for using a firearm any more than for using a blender. We had a murder here some years ago an with our low population do you have any idea what that does to our per capita murder rate? I even heard a LA disc jockey on KFI radio refer to us as a "town full of murderers." That's fine, it keeps traffic down.

Ya, your wife did good.
How close are your neighbors? They might could care less about a single shot at a yote or other animal. If I was in a situation like that, I'd might even call the neighbors just to say....hey I just fired a shot at some animal attacking my dog...might wanna keep a watch over your pets :) Might even prevent a call to report it.

Intimid8tor
02-20-2012, 11:03 AM
Picture a Siberian husky. Huge haunches. Rounded ears. Gray and white coat. Now make him bigger and bushier. What else do I have here, a bigfoot? If it tries to get in my yard again it'll get lead poisoning.

Sounds like one based on the pics I have seen. Wonder if it is some kind of crossbreed or the bloodlines started as someone's pet. I vaguely remember hearing that some people had wolves as pets.

A pic would be cool.

winnre
02-20-2012, 11:09 AM
Ya, your wife did good.
How close are your neighbors? They might could care less about a single shot at a yote or other animal. If I was in a situation like that, I'd might even call the neighbors just to say....hey I just fired a shot at some animal attacking my dog...might wanna keep a watch over your pets :) Might even prevent a call to report it.

There are houses but too far to hit with a bow and arrow. A bullet can reach that far though of course. Most of the houses are unoccupied.


Sounds like one based on the pics I have seen. Wonder if it is some kind of crossbreed or the bloodlines started as someone's pet. I vaguely remember hearing that some people had wolves as pets.

A pic would be cool.

Oh you bring up a darn good point. Wolf hybrids are rather common I believe. One of those designer dogs. He has no collar however.

Hey if it is a wolf and it is very rare, then if I shoot it with a very rare gun does that equalize the rarity factors?

Kruzr
02-20-2012, 11:26 AM
It isn't a wolf unless one escaped from Julian. That's why you need to call them.

http://www.californiawolfcenter.org/about/contact/

If you really believe it is a wolf, you better let someone else handle the situation and get ready for the news crews since it will make national news.

raddogz
02-20-2012, 11:27 AM
Wow - just reading up on this thread.

I think you wife's words of wisdom are applicable. As a woman starting out with firearms practice is never the same as real life situations. As for the police officer well...

It's good that the two of are in agreement to some some training in, and hopefully will decide on something she's comfortable with.

A few weeks back a friend of mine were talking and she said that everybody should learn how to use a gun whether or not you plan on owning a gun.

NYsteveZ
02-20-2012, 11:43 AM
I dont think assuming that canine to be a wolf is crazy at all. I live in Oceanside, near Camp Pendleton. I work some crazy hours, and one night after a shift (about 4am) I was smoking a cigarette on my balcony. Out in the street, I seen three very large husky like dogs, and a fourth one lagging behind limping badly, either shot, hit by a car...whatever. These were NOT coyotes, but either wolf hybrid or full blown wolf. When I was a Marine stationed at Pendleton, they had buffalo roaming around (Horno area if memory serves) so anything is possible, especially people who breed wolf hybrids, maybe letting them go-see Florida and their Python problem.
On a good gun for the wife-Mini 14's are on sale at Turners, and from the forums I read here, is the coyotes nemesis.

5shot
02-20-2012, 11:44 AM
If it's not a coyote, it's probably a feral dog, or wolf hybred that's been allowed to run loose.
There are no wolves in the San Bernardino mountains, except at the Moonridge Zoo, and the Wolf Mountain Sanctuary. You may want to call them and see if they have had any escapees recently.
Feral dogs can be just as mean and wild as coyotes and wolves, but being from domestic stock, they have no fear of people.

winnre
02-20-2012, 11:44 AM
Kruzr, thanks for the link. I told them to come get the wolf before it gets a 30-30 slug in it. We shall see.

BKinzey
02-20-2012, 11:54 AM
Sounds like the wife needs more practice on handling firearms. She relied on someone else to properly clear the firearm and got swept with a loaded firearm.:(

You've also experienced a lesson on not letting LEO into your home if you can avoid it. She should have left the gun, unloaded, slide open, in the backyard on a table, chair, etc and gone out front and waited (or watched from a window and exited as soon as LEO arrived) for the responding officer. Then she should have led them around the side of the house to the backyard where the gun is and the incident occurred.

All in all though it didn't turn out bad. Things could have been better, but they could have been much worse.

If you truly think you have a wolf visiting you should contact someone. If it is a wild wolf it's important information.

Intimid8tor
02-20-2012, 11:55 AM
Kruzr, thanks for the link. I told them to come get the wolf before it gets a 30-30 slug in it. We shall see.

I bet they are all spazzing out now wondering if one of their's got loose or if there was a wild one all along.

Once it is caught or shot we want pics. And it better not turn out to be a chihuahua. :43::p:)

IrishPirate
02-20-2012, 11:56 AM
My wife called me screaming that a coyote was attacking out dog. The only weapons in the house are a 40 cal and my cooking. I told her to make noise and as a last resort go get the gun.

The gun is unloaded, she loaded the magazine and went to inspect to find that our dog was losing the fight. She fired a shot and the coyote ran away. She missed. Then she called me back to say she had fired a shot.

I told her put the gun down since the threat is gone, she said she was shaking from the experience. She dropped the magazine but is too shaky to unload the round from the chamber. I advised her to call 911 to report the shooting, though it is justified the neighbors may call 911 to report it. She did so, and they are sending an officer out to "inspect the weapon." Probably not a bad idea considering her shakiness. The gun is on the kitchen table and she is staying out of the kitchen. There are no other accessible firearms.

Her words of wisdom:
-Guns are LOUD in a backyard with no hearing protection.
-Shooting at a paper target in a controlled and well lit environment is nothing like shooting at a vicious moving animal that is trying to eat your dog.
-As bad as the "bad guy" may be in the situation, you never want anything dead in the end.

I told her we will get her trained up on a rifle or other firearm she is more comfy with to stop the coyote threat. Neighbors said they are roving in packs at night, stealing pets from houses as they go. We have heard them.

Well that's OUR excitement for the morning!

hopefully your dog is ok! no matter what you have to shoot at, HAVING to shoot is a stressful situation. Sounds like she handled it ok (even if her nerves were fried afterward). Good of you to recognize the need for training too and not give her any crap about the situation. Hopefully it never happens again, but if it does, i'm sure she'll appreciate being ready.

BOLD: sounds like the neighborhood watch needs to issue AR's and night vision. If it were me, i'd be out poaching those bastards for attacking my dog.

BassNut
02-20-2012, 12:08 PM
Just curious, Why did you have her call 911 in the first place? Heck, My neighbors must of let off about 200 rounds yesterday. No police called. Me and my boys shoot clays about once a month right out of my back door and I have a 100 yard range for my rifles.

Are you in a no shoot zone? Even so, I wouldn't have called 911.

tanda10506
02-20-2012, 12:21 PM
I haven't seen this yet and although some may agree, I will probably get some heat over it, but I'm going to say it anyway: avoid getting the police involved in any situation possible. Of course if you shoot someone or your house was burglarized you call, but in cases like this, and many other cases similar or not, there is no benefit of getting the police involved. Before I make my case with a few points, I will say that a good friend of mine is a SB County sheriff and a great guy, my ffl is also a SB County sheriff and a great guy, both these guys think logically and of course there are many other officers that do too. Problem is there are more of them that don't.

There are plenty of stupid and ticky tack laws as it pertains to guns and gun owners in California. Are some of the laws completely ridiculous, yes, but will they still arrest you for them, hell yeah. You can think your completely legal and next thing you know they are hauling you away and thousands of dollars in firearms along with it, all because you thought you were doing the right thing. I understand you had her call 911 because neighbors may have heard, but the odds of someone calling in being able to pinpoint where the noise came from is pretty rare, if it's a close next door neighbor sure, but someone in the neighborhood, I highly doubt they will know which house/field/store etc. that it came from. On top of ignorant gun laws there are plenty of ignorant laws on self defense. It was mentioned that nobody would care because it's a wild animal, but regardless of that, if a person is trying to harm/steal my dog, especially in a vicious manner, they will be shot as if they were harming me. That's my best friend out there and I'm not about to let some street scum harm him because some stupid *** law. That being said, I could possibly be charged in that situation as could your wife in this situation for something extremely petty and warranted by anybody with common sense. I know by now people may think that I'm anti LEO or anti-law, but I'm not, you just have to understand the way things actually take place is different from the way they should. I know it sounds harsh, but the second your wife called 911 and said she discharged a firearm she automatically admitted guilt. I know it sounds stupid but I have seen things like that play out first hand. Unfortunately laws are exactly as they are written and often leave no exemptions for common sense situations, I don't want to sound like I'm saying laws are meant to be broke, but some prohibit you from acting logically like in your situation. Should you let your dog get killed because some liberal up in Sacramento said you should, hell no. As in your case, most LEO's agree and would make little to no fuss about the situation, but know that there are plenty that will want to prosecute you to the fullest extent. All I'm saying is worst case scenario if you don't call the police is they find out it was you and you tell them what happened, much like your wife did anyway. The worst case scenario if you call them is they get petty, arrest your wife and abolish her gun rights while taking the firearm used and if they see fit, the rest of your firearms also. Just doesn't sound like a scenario I would wan't to create. OP, I mean no disrespect and I'm not trying to insult your intelligence or your wife's, I just try to make this point in these types of situations so your better aware of the things that could happen by getting LEO involved. I have had one case where I fired a shot at my house, it too was at a pretty furocious dog, but it was just a warning shot into the ground after spraying it with the hose and throwing rocks (even hitting it once lol) did nothing. I went to my direct neighbors and informed them what happened and all was well. As I mentioned though, I've seen first hand the things that can happen when LEO is involved. A family friend actually was arrested and didn't get his gun back for almost a year for firing a warning shot at 2 pit bulls that were trying to dig in to his yard to get after his dog, three days in jail and unarmed for a year for using logic. My grandpa had a similar situation. After reading this, the majority (maybe not) will probably agree with you that you did the right thing, and you did do the "right" thing technically, but we live in a society where no good deed goes unpunished, and Kalifornia is the poster child of that unfortunately.

winnre
02-20-2012, 6:33 PM
Today we went to Turner's and the wife fell in love with a Mossberg 500 20ga Youth Model. It's in jail now. It is a much better fit for her than the 12ga and rifles that I have. In the meantime she will be rather extra aware of the surroundings. At this rate she may very well get a sling and carry the shotgun across her back where ever she goes just to be safe.

And the cops will only get called if we shoot vermin of the 2-legged variety.

BassNut
02-20-2012, 6:42 PM
A wolf? If so, you have made only the second sighting of a wild wolf in Calif. since 1924. Quick, alert CNN.

You may want to give the folks at the Wolf Center in Julian a call.


There is a Wolf in California right now. Came down form Oregon.

The CDFG is even tracking him as he has a collar on.

http://www.dfg.ca.gov/wildlife/nongame/wolf/docs/OR7-Map.pdf

SWalt
02-20-2012, 7:27 PM
They taught me that when looking at guns with other folk the "polite routine" is I clear the weapon and hand it to you, then you clear it to make sure.
Take care
Mike

Not only is it polite, it is the proper way to ensure a weapon you have is truly unloaded. Always check, never assume. Someone hands you a weapon and tells you its unload, don't believe it, check it yourself. I was taught that decades ago and still practice it. Its a shame I don't hear it more often.

den888
02-20-2012, 7:39 PM
I have trained without hearing protection and yes, even a .38 special is LOUD.

SWalt
02-20-2012, 9:09 PM
It would be very interesting if it was a wolf, I lean more to the thought it was a large feral dog actually. But experts can be wrong. Were wolfs ever indigenous to the San Gabriels? Many moons ago there was a sighting of a mountain lion in a very urban area that had a wild life corridor that led to the San Gabriels about 15 miles away. A very narrow corridor at that, surrounded by homes. This was before the ban on hunting lions. The city, LASD, and experts all poo pawed it. "Mountain lions are very leary of people, too many homes around, theres no food source, no human has ever been killed by a mountain lion..." Someone got a picture of it and up went the signs. Hope you get a pic of the creature.

Kruzr
02-20-2012, 9:29 PM
There is a Wolf in California right now. Came down form Oregon.

The CDFG is even tracking him as he has a collar on.

http://www.dfg.ca.gov/wildlife/nongame/wolf/docs/OR7-Map.pdf

That is why this would be the second sighting of a wild wolf since 1924 in the state and why it would be so rare since the one being tracked crossed the border into No. Cal. from Oregon. It's been even longer since a sighting of a wild wolf in So. Cal.

ColdDeadHands1
02-20-2012, 10:01 PM
I never would have called the cops! You are just asking for someone to get arrested or your stuff rifled through. I strongly recommend SS. It should be SSS but your wife missed... :)

winnre
02-20-2012, 10:42 PM
SS? SSS?

Vlad 11
02-20-2012, 10:56 PM
Turtles

winnre
02-20-2012, 11:02 PM
Luvit!

tonelar
02-20-2012, 11:11 PM
... Is walking in uninvited some sort of tactic or procedure? I'd have not expected it for sure.

Your wife's 9-1-1 call wasn't an invitation?

Databyter
02-20-2012, 11:24 PM
Wondering if the OP lives in an unincorporated area, i.e. the Sheriff, not the police show up.

The reason for my curiosity is that I believe that dogs are considered property legally and you are prevented by law from discharging a weapon to protect property within the jusisdiction of most cities (please correct me if I am wrong).

I am 100% in agreement with the OP and wife, and totally agree it was reasonable to protect a family member from a predator, but would like to hear some clarification.

Also, what if it had been another dog, and not a coyote.

City vs County jurisdiction

Private Property vs Family member.

I just know if I did anything like this in Chula Vista they would probably confiscate my gun (or try to), and charge me with unlawful discharge or worse.

Maybe I am wrong, but then again I am baised, last time I called CVPD which was over a decade ago, for an assault on ME by somebody else, I got arrested and my assailant was let go, and I never broke any laws, was non agressive, and obeyed the commands of the responders THAT I CALLED, including SHUT UP and you will get an opportunity to tell your side. They never mentioned that my turn would be the next day, after being removed from my house, leaving the assailant IN my house. So ya, I am baised, but CVPD aside, curious about the actual law here. (rant off, it still hits me sometimes).

Any contact that leaves the gun on the table seems to be an acceptable one, even though it appears certain procedures (clearing the gun) were not employed.

winnre
02-20-2012, 11:26 PM
Very unincorporated. About 20 minutes to the nearest stop sign.

Databyter
02-20-2012, 11:33 PM
Very unincorporated. About 20 minutes to the nearest stop sign.

I'm jealous. That used to be me, and it is a lot better than living in a city.

NoJoke
02-21-2012, 6:44 AM
Time to repost, as a reminder, that video of a law school instructor regarding: "Don't Talk to the Police" :cool:

Anyone have a link?

BassNut
02-21-2012, 7:40 AM
That is why this would be the second sighting of a wild wolf since 1924 in the state and why it would be so rare since the one being tracked crossed the border into No. Cal. from Oregon. It's been even longer since a sighting of a wild wolf in So. Cal.

I guess since one did come all the way from Washington into California, It is possible that one could roam all the way from New Mexico or Arizona into So. Cal.

Highly unlikely but possible.

Fishslayer
02-21-2012, 9:38 AM
Not only is it polite, it is the proper way to ensure a weapon you have is truly unloaded. Always check, never assume. Someone hands you a weapon and tells you its unload, don't believe it, check it yourself. I was taught that decades ago and still practice it. Its a shame I don't hear it more often.

That's how I was taught, too.



Also, what if it had been another dog, and not a coyote.


If it's on your property, fair game. Especially if it is attacking your animals. That is the only way I would shoot a coyote OR another dog. Outside my fence I leave 'em alone.

S
S
S

Kruzr
02-21-2012, 10:08 AM
I guess since one did come all the way from Washington into California, It is possible that one could roam all the way from New Mexico or Arizona into So. Cal.

Highly unlikely but possible.

I'd say impossible since the one that crossed into Calif. last month has a tracking device.

EvoXRiley
02-21-2012, 10:23 AM
what city you reside in if you dont mind me asking.

winnre
02-21-2012, 4:25 PM
I'm jealous. That used to be me, and it is a lot better than living in a city.

We had a crime wave in 2004. Someone put a quarter in the newspaper machine and took ALL the newspapers.


what city you reside in if you dont mind me asking.

Angelus Oaks. You can actually write me a letter with my first name and zip code only and I'll get it.

ArmyMedicMoose
02-21-2012, 4:38 PM
picked up a 20ga?

Irish Gunner
02-21-2012, 4:59 PM
This is very strange indeed. Given the area shooting at a coyote seems reasonable, so why didn't the encounter go like this...

Hello Mrs. X, I am officer Y and you called reporting that you shot at a coyote that was attacking your dog, can I come in?

Sure.

Are you ok, do you need any medical attention or is there a friend we can call? May I inspect the weapon and secure it?

OK

I am going to get some information and file a report just to document the incident, do you mind answering some questions.

.....You get the idea. This could have been handled much better by SBCSO. I would probably write it up and report it to her superior. Her actions need to have consequences too.

5shot
02-21-2012, 6:28 PM
We had a crime wave in 2004. Someone put a quarter in the newspaper machine and took ALL the newspapers.




Angelus Oaks. You can actually write me a letter with my first name and zip code only and I'll get it.

The female deputy that responded to your house was probably from the Yucaipa Station down the hill.
The resident deputy (Paul Franklin) for Angeles Oaks is also one of our county Fish & Game commissioners. He's a hunter, shooter, Hunter Safety Inst, etc. When he's off, deputies from Yucaipa fill in for him. You probably would have had a different experience with him.