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View Full Version : Question: Is a 9" AR15 pistol with a 9" suppressor still a handgun?


tenpercentfirearms
02-15-2012, 7:54 AM
Ok, so I am wanting to build a 9" .300 AAC BLK AR Pistol and I have a 9" long Thunder Beast Arms 30P-1 suppressor. Question, if I put the two together, I have an 18" long barrel/suppressor combo. Does going over 16"es put me in some CA SBR territory? Federally I should be good because the Feds don't recognize the muzzle attachment as barrel length since it isn't permanent.

What say you legal experts? I am researching it too, but it is always better to look at this collectively rather than solely. Thanks.

Edit: The State of California can go suck a big fat unit for changing the penal code numbers around. I can't find a damn thing anymore.

tenpercentfirearms
02-15-2012, 8:07 AM
Found the PC of SBR.

17170. As used in Sections 16530 and 16640, Sections 17720 to
17730, inclusive, Section 17740, Article 1 (commencing with Section
27500) of Chapter 4 of Division 6 of Title 4, and Article 1
(commencing with Section 33210) of Chapter 8 of Division 10 of Title
4, "short-barreled rifle" means any of the following:
(a) A rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in
length.
(b) A rifle with an overall length of less than 26 inches.
(c) Any weapon made from a rifle (whether by alteration,
modification, or otherwise) if that weapon, as modified, has an
overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less
than 16 inches in length.
(d) Any device that may be readily restored to fire a fixed
cartridge which, when so restored, is a device defined in
subdivisions (a) to (c), inclusive.
(e) Any part, or combination of parts, designed and intended to
convert a device into a device defined in subdivisions (a) to (c),
inclusive, or any combination of parts from which a device defined in
subdivisions (a) to (c), inclusive, may be readily assembled if
those parts are in the possession or under the control of the same
person.So basically without a buttstock, it isn't a rifle. So the question is, is there a limit to how long your pistol barrel can be?

Mesa Tactical
02-15-2012, 8:12 AM
Found the PC of SBR.

So basically without a buttstock, it isn't a rifle. So the question is, is there a limit to how long your pistol barrel can be?

Never heard of one. But that doesn't mean much.

I have an Erma .22 Luger target pistol somewhere with a crazy long barrel.

Blood Ocean
02-15-2012, 8:37 AM
You've gone title 1 long gun as long as there's no buttstock, you can run mags of any capacity and you wouldn't need a bullet button for that beast...I have an 80% lower destined for a similar project.

Zimz
02-15-2012, 8:38 AM
My first though is about the supressor. I didnt think those were legal in CA which would make the rest of your question moot...

Flopper
02-15-2012, 8:40 AM
My first though is about the supressor. I didnt think those were legal in CA which would make the rest of your question moot...

AFAIK OP is an 07 FFL so he can do it.

You've gone title 1 long gun as long as there's no buttstock, you can run mags of any capacity and you wouldn't need a bullet button for that beast...I have an 80% lower destined for a similar project.

Last I heard about this was "probably; tread LIGHTLY."

tenpercentfirearms
02-15-2012, 8:41 AM
You've gone title 1 long gun as long as there's no buttstock, you can run mags of any capacity and you wouldn't need a bullet button for that beast...I have an 80% lower destined for a similar project.

Wait a minute! This was not the intent of this thread, but let's keep it going.

First, I don't think it is an other since the physical barrel is only 9"es and the suppressor is not permanently attached. So the feds would still consider it a handgun right?

Further, CA still considers it a handgun since it was registered as a handgun and you cannot violate the handgun AW rules.

Farva
02-15-2012, 8:41 AM
My first though is about the supressor. I didnt think those were legal in CA which would make the rest of your question moot...

He is an authorized dealer.

Blood Ocean
02-15-2012, 9:00 AM
I didn't read closely enough, without permanence you still have a pistol. It all comes down to what you want out of it. If you don't mind a BB and 10 round mags the 9" will be a ton of fun (I have a 7.5 and can attest AR pistols are awesome) otherwise consider going full barrel, the extra weight out front with the suppressor will further encourage "spray fire from the hip."

Wait a minute! This was not the intent of this thread, but let's keep it going.

First, I don't think it is an other since the physical barrel is only 9"es and the suppressor is not permanently attached. So the feds would still consider it a handgun right?

Further, CA still considers it a handgun since it was registered as a handgun and you cannot violate the handgun AW rules.

bwiese
02-15-2012, 9:31 AM
Wes....

1. We've been recommending on SSE conversions etc. to NOT extend
the barrel to 16" or longer - i.e., keep it below 16" long.

This length of course means barrel and any perm. attached devices.

This way there's no worry about the gun crossing OUT of handgun
territory. The worrry, from the broadness of *California's* SBR
constructive possession definition based on the history of the gun, is
that a handgun that goes beyond 16" may change into a nonhandgun a
nd that if we "come back" from that status we might trigger SBR status
.

Avoiding bbl length goiing over 16" avoids risk of that drama.

[This is why the recent happy BATF memo now allowing various pistol->rifle->pistol transitions
does not really help us in CA since we have a separate relatively untested body of SBR law and
few agency opinions or real court cases other than the [I]Rooney case on overall length that went
sideways for Rooney [even though he followed ATF standard.]

2. The suppressor is such a separate major device in its own right that I do wonder if that would
move from being just considerable as a barrel extension, to whether it would maybe NOT be regardable
as part of the barrel even when perm. affixed. Probably not, but just sayin'...


But if the can is not perm affixed to the barrel then I see the gun still as having a shorty pistol
barrel and separate can, and you are in fact still a pistol with no 16" handwaving...

Serpentine
02-15-2012, 10:53 AM
I was questioned on having a 23" bbl. on a Thompson Contender G2 pistol at our local range; yes, there was a specific need for this particular hog gun. The local ATF authorities said it was legal and advised the range master. The question of whether it was a single shot, semi-automatic, or whether or not it included any type of barrel shroud, extension, suppressor, counter boring, muzzle brake, etc., never came into play.

tenpercentfirearms
02-15-2012, 11:39 AM
Wes....

1. We've been recommending on SSE conversions etc. to NOT extend
the barrel to 16" or longer - i.e., keep it below 16" long.Oh no questions about it. No SSE pistols are being sold with suppressors and are most certainly under 16"es. This is all about end user and company demo use.

But if the can is not perm affixed to the barrel then I see the gun still as having a shorty pistol
barrel and separate can, and you are in fact still a pistol with no 16" handwaving...There will be nothing permanent about it. Sometimes it will have a can on it, sometimes it won't.

I had realized I could permanently attach a can to it and just make it a rifle, but really, it isn't necessary. Having a 16" with a removable can for many rifles isn't that horrible.

Falstaff
02-15-2012, 1:26 PM
My first though is about the supressor. I didnt think those were legal in CA which would make the rest of your question moot...

self appointed Calguns safety monitors and FUD spewers; dontcha' jus' luv'em!

CHS
02-15-2012, 1:43 PM
If you permanently attach the suppressor, then you have a Title 1 "Other", or "Pistol grip only" firearm.

Otherwise, CA and Federal law would still consider it a pistol with a large barrel attachment.

goodlookin1
02-15-2012, 7:05 PM
Why does it even matter? Doesn't having to 07 FFL SOT license enable you to make/buy/build practically whatever you want by ATF form filing for SBR/suppressor/post sample MG? What CA law is keeping you from building whatever you want here?

In any case, none of this makes sense to me because a citizen/subject of CA is not allowed to own a suppressor without the unobtainium "dangerous weapons" permit, so this whole exercise is pointless.

Tenpercent.....do you still have to follow CA firearms laws as a dealer selling to Mil/LEO even though you are federally licensed for all the NFA stuff? I'm sure I have something wrong here...Just seems strange that you can get suppressor but cant build a simple "Assault Weapon"!!

ke6guj
02-15-2012, 7:22 PM
Why does it even matter? Doesn't having to 07 FFL SOT license enable you to make/buy/build practically whatever you want by ATF form filing for SBR/suppressor/post sample MG? What CA law is keeping you from building whatever you want here?no, an SOTin CA can not make an SBR or MG without having a DW permit.

Tenpercent.....do you still have to follow CA firearms laws as a dealer selling to Mil/LEO even though you are federally licensed for all the NFA stuff? I'm sure I have something wrong here...Just seems strange that you can get suppressor but cant build a simple "Assault Weapon"!!he is federally licensed for this NFA stuff, but is not CA registered to deal in AW or DW weapons.

Connor P Price
02-15-2012, 7:38 PM
I can see this thread getting really interesting. Is this just a fun demo gun?

SoCal Gunner
02-15-2012, 8:14 PM
self appointed Calguns safety monitors and FUD spewers; dontcha' jus' luv'em!

Listen, I find this thread very interesting as it treads through the legalese of both CA and FED law. However, for you to throw this out isn't called for. Does every Calgun member know what a 07 FFL SOT is let alone who here is one?

His assertion is correct; suppressors in CA are illegal for the regular folks. Yet you come in here to throw stones. Thanks for your support!

tenpercentfirearms
02-17-2012, 5:44 AM
I'm not an 07. I am an 01 with an SOT. I cannot deal in assault weapons, non-C&R SBRs or SBSs, MGs, or DDs. I can possess silencers for sales to LEO and military. This is a LEO demo model.

If it weren't legal for my company to possess suppressors, then I wouldn't be talking about them. Clearly it is legal for my company to possess suppressors.

Thank you for all of your concern. I just need to know if a 9"+9" pistol barrel is anything special. It appears not.

goodlookin1
02-17-2012, 11:51 AM
no, an SOTin CA can not make an SBR or MG without having a DW permit.

he is federally licensed for this NFA stuff, but is not CA registered to deal in AW or DW weapons.

And

I'm not an 07. I am an 01 with an SOT. I cannot deal in assault weapons, non-C&R SBRs or SBSs, MGs, or DDs. I can possess silencers for sales to LEO and military. This is a LEO demo model.

If it weren't legal for my company to possess suppressors, then I wouldn't be talking about them. Clearly it is legal for my company to possess suppressors.

Thank you for all of your concern. I just need to know if a 9"+9" pistol barrel is anything special. It appears not.

Doesnt CA require a DW permit in order make/sell/possess sound suppressors? Because if you have one, why would it not cover the other types of DW's?

Are there individual DW permits for different types of "DW's"???

ke6guj
02-17-2012, 12:06 PM
Doesnt CA require a DW permit in order make/sell/possess sound suppressors? Because if you have one, why would it not cover the other types of DW's?no, CA does not require a DW permit for suppressors. They don't even offer one. There is no way for Joe Pulblic to own a silender since there is no DW permit that can be issued to him. however, if you are an FFL with an SOT, CA exempts you from the suppressor law.

Are there individual DW permits for different types of "DW's"???yes.

http://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/pdfs/firearms/forms/FD030DWapp.pdf?

CHS
02-17-2012, 12:06 PM
Doesnt CA require a DW permit in order make/sell/possess sound suppressors? Because if you have one, why would it not cover the other types of DW's?

Are there individual DW permits for different types of "DW's"???

California doesn't require anything special at all for suppressors. You just have to be federally licensed.

EBR Works
02-17-2012, 8:56 PM
So Wes, won't that 9" barrel potentially trash the can? After some research I was under the impression that ARs with under 11" barrels were particularly susceptible to baffle strikes due to lack of bullet stability.

Connor P Price
02-17-2012, 9:44 PM
So Wes, won't that 9" barrel potentially trash the can? After some research I was under the impression that ARs with under 11" barrels were particularly susceptible to baffle strikes due to lack of bullet stability.

I don't believe that to be an issue with 300blk.

SouthCoastTargets
02-17-2012, 9:55 PM
So Wes, won't that 9" barrel potentially trash the can? After some research I was under the impression that ARs with under 11" barrels were particularly susceptible to baffle strikes due to lack of bullet stability.

not necessarily, the AAC honey badger (in .300 blk out) has a 6" barrel with a can on the end. seems to be working fine so far, keep in mind the rifle has not gone into full production yet.

EBR Works
02-17-2012, 10:14 PM
Ahh, got it. Sounds like a cool project. Gotta do something like this myself soon.

goodlookin1
02-18-2012, 10:47 AM
Wow, learning new stuff all the time. Being in CA, I'm not well versed in anything NFA. I was always under the impression that suppressors fell under the CA dangerous weapons licensing.

My guess as to Ten's original question would be that the rifle would be legal so long as the suppressor is permanently affixed to the barrel and the end result was 16"+ longer. If you are licensed for Suppressor possession/use, I dont see why it would be any different than buying a 14.5" barrel and permanently pinning a 1.5"+ flash hider....

But what do I know....

Connor P Price
02-18-2012, 10:56 AM
Wow, learning new stuff all the time. Being in CA, I'm not well versed in anything NFA. I was always under the impression that suppressors fell under the CA dangerous weapons licensing.


Your tellin me. I recently started shopping for NFA items a bit and realized I knew almost nothing about this stuff. Its taken a lot of reading to get caught up from behind the iron curtain here.