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blackrazor
02-15-2012, 8:14 AM
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Rockit
02-15-2012, 8:17 AM
I would say yes, but why would you?
Mags are cheap, buy some....or....
Make it featureless and go to town.

Ed_Hazard
02-15-2012, 8:19 AM
No, the hicap must be permanatntly altered to 10rds only to be legal.

Droc101
02-15-2012, 8:22 AM
No, the hicap must be permanatntly altered to 1ords only to be legal.

This

Ed_Hazard
02-15-2012, 8:28 AM
I would say yes, but why would you?
Mags are cheap, buy some....or....
Make it featureless and go to town.

Even if you build a featureless rifle now, you cant purchase magazine rebuild kits and assemble "hicap" mags. You would have to have owned them prior to the ban.

OP you might want to read this thread,

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=387409

Mstnpete
02-15-2012, 8:29 AM
Just my 2 cents.....

I would not bring heat upon myself and use one even converted to a 10 rounder on an OLL. To many undercover at outdoor ranges.
Be legal and buy a 10 rounder and use that in all outdoor ranges.

Ed_Hazard
02-15-2012, 8:30 AM
We're not talking about the high cap mag itself here, that's the interesting part. The mag is legal whether it can hold 10 rounds or 30. We're talking about using a mag that can, for the time being, only hold 10 rounds while being used in a BB equipped rifle. The BB isn't permanent either, so it seems that permanence isn't a requirement for the legal status of an OLL build. I don't see anywhere in the PC where it says that the 10 round cap mag that is used to build a semiautomatic, pistol grip equipped rifle must be *permanently modified* to hold 10 rounds or less. Yes with a few tools you could mod the mag to hold 30 rounds, but with the same tools you could remove the BB and install a real detachable magazine button.

The state will not see it that way. It will see a hicap magazine, as it still has the ability to hold more than 10rds, even if temporarily it can not. To be legal in a 10/30, 10/20 version the conversion to 10rds must be permanant.

Rockit
02-15-2012, 8:33 AM
No, the hicap must be permanatntly altered to 10rds only to be legal.
How is it permanently altered? Don't the p-mag 10 round limiters just slip in? Can't you just take it out?

I have never used one.

Ed_Hazard
02-15-2012, 8:33 AM
We're not talking about the high cap mag itself here, that's the interesting part. The mag is legal whether it can hold 10 rounds or 30. We're talking about using a mag that can, for the time being, only hold 10 rounds while being used in a BB equipped rifle. The BB isn't permanent either, so it seems that permanence isn't a requirement for the legal status of an OLL build. I don't see anywhere in the PC where it says that the 10 round cap mag that is used to build a semiautomatic, pistol grip equipped rifle must be *permanently modified* to hold 10 rounds or less. Yes with a few tools you could mod the mag to hold 30 rounds, but with the same tools you could remove the BB and install a real detachable magazine button.


Your correct, it states that you cannot use a mag that holds more than 10rds period. The state does not care what it looks like or might have been at one time. Once in state it must be permanantly fixed at 10rds to be legal, it cannot be reversible.

Ed_Hazard
02-15-2012, 8:34 AM
How is it permanently altered? Don't the p-mag 10 round limiters just slip in? Can't you just take it out?

I have never used one.

to be done correctly you must make it a permanant conversion, most people dealers will epoxy the block into place.

Rockit
02-15-2012, 8:34 AM
Even if you build a featureless rifle now, you cant purchase magazine rebuild kits and assemble "hicap" mags. You would have to have owned them prior to the ban.

I meant buy new 10 rounders.

Ed_Hazard
02-15-2012, 8:35 AM
We're not talking about the high cap mag itself here, that's the interesting part. The mag is legal whether it can hold 10 rounds or 30. We're talking about using a mag that can, for the time being, only hold 10 rounds while being used in a BB equipped rifle. The BB isn't permanent either, so it seems that permanence isn't a requirement for the legal status of an OLL build. I don't see anywhere in the PC where it says that the 10 round cap mag that is used to build a semiautomatic, pistol grip equipped rifle must be *permanently modified* to hold 10 rounds or less. Yes with a few tools you could mod the mag to hold 30 rounds, but with the same tools you could remove the BB and install a real detachable magazine button.

Yes you can, then you no longer have an OLL build, but an illegally built AW.

Rockit
02-15-2012, 8:36 AM
to be done correctly you must make it a permanant conversion, most people dealers will epoxy the block into place.
Did not know that! Thanks.

Ed_Hazard
02-15-2012, 8:37 AM
I meant buy new 10 rounders.

You can buy all the 10rd mags you like, some people like the "look" of a 10/30 or the functionality or ease of use over a stubby 10rd mag.

Ed_Hazard
02-15-2012, 8:40 AM
I already own lots of them before the ban (not that there's any law against purchasing high cap mags anyway, just saying).



But here's the question: how does this logic not apply to the BB equipped rifle? The rifle is not permanently altered to never use a detachable magazine, it can easily be converted back and forth in a few seconds with the right tools. And in this case, what we're talking about is the construction of an "assault weapon" not the construction of a high-cap mag. So where in the PC does it state that the mag portion of the "assault weapon" must be permanent, but then say that the mag catch/BB portion can be temporary?

A OLL or featureless rifle cannot by definition be an AW. To be Ca. compliant the OLL/featureless rifle is required to have a fixed mag. The BB is an ingenious way to stay legal and make ones life a little easier.

Ed_Hazard
02-15-2012, 8:41 AM
I already own lots of them before the ban (not that there's any law against purchasing high cap mags anyway, just saying).



But here's the question: how does this logic not apply to the BB equipped rifle? The rifle is not permanently altered to never use a detachable magazine, it can easily be converted back and forth in a few seconds with the right tools. And in this case, what we're talking about is the construction of an "assault weapon" not the construction of a high-cap mag. So where in the PC does it state that the mag portion of the "assault weapon" must be permanent, but then say that the mag catch/BB portion can be temporary?

Magazines yes, rebuild kits no. ;)

Mstnpete
02-15-2012, 8:47 AM
I already own lots of them before the ban (not that there's any law against purchasing high cap mags anyway, just saying).



But here's the question: how does this logic not apply to the BB equipped rifle? The rifle is not permanently altered to never use a detachable magazine, it can easily be converted back and forth in a few seconds with the right tools. And in this case, what we're talking about is the construction of an "assault weapon" not the construction of a high-cap mag. So where in the PC does it state that the mag portion of the "assault weapon" must be permanent, but then say that the mag catch/BB portion can be temporary?

Simple solution:

Hi-caps for RAW no BB needed.
OLL with BB- Fixed 10 rounders.

I have both.

Ed_Hazard
02-15-2012, 8:57 AM
Technically buying high cap mags is 100% legal in the state of CA... unless something has changed recently in the PC (please let me know where it says it's illegal if it's changed!).

I think the point of my question is this: Why do you all believe that the mag-lock feature can be temporary, but the mag-block feature must be permanent? Is there some text or ruling to back this up, or is this just a "best guess"?


A mag lock is not temporary, it is the magazine retention device of an OLL.


Here you go on the permanat part.

(emphasis mine)

12020 (c)(25) As used in this section, "large-capacity
magazine" means any ammunition feeding device with the capacity
to accept more than 10 rounds, but shall not be construed to
include any of the following:
(A) A feeding device that has been permanently altered so
that itcannot accommodate more than 10 rounds.
(B) A .22 caliber tube ammunition feeding device.
(C) A tubular magazine that is contained in a lever-action
firearm.

Librarian
02-15-2012, 4:23 PM
Technically buying high cap mags is 100% legal in the state of CA... unless something has changed recently in the PC (please let me know where it says it's illegal if it's changed!).

I think the point of my question is this: Why do you all believe that the mag-lock feature can be temporary, but the mag-block feature must be permanent? Is there some text or ruling to back this up, or is this just a "best guess"?

The mag lock requires tools to disassemble it from the lower. But the cruft coming out of DOJ while attempting to create regs did not succeed in adding any element of permanence to the magazine locking device. From the wiki (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/Non_detachable_magazines) In 2006, DOJ attempted a rulemaking that subsequently was withdrawn to add the concept of permanence to "detachable magazine." A memo that expressed the attempted rulemaking remained on the DOJ website after the rulemaking was abandoned. Members of Calguns.net challenged the memo as an underground regulation and DOJ agreed not to attempt to use the proposed permanence rule as rule of general applicability.
That is NOT the case with magazines - the PC itself (http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/16740.html) uses 'permanent' : As used in this part, "large-capacity magazine" means any
ammunition feeding device with the capacity to accept more than 10
rounds, but shall not be construed to include any of the following:
(a) A feeding device that has been permanently altered so that it
cannot accommodate more than 10 rounds.
(b) A .22 caliber tube ammunition feeding device.
(c) A tubular magazine that is contained in a lever-action
firearm.
The rule-making there, however, never gave a definition of 'permanently', but did state that 'irreversible' and 'permanent' were not synonyms.