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View Full Version : AR handling ?


icenix
02-14-2012, 10:05 PM
Okay, so just something that I have noticed in pictures, etc. is that a lot of people hold their ARs, and some other guns, with the stock on the outside of the elbow with the gun across their body.

For me, it is way more comfortable with the stock inside my elbow, under my arm. I feel like I can get into shooting position a lot quicker, plus it seems that if I hold it outside my elbow and try to get into the shooting position quickly the stock can get caught on my elbow/arm and slow me down.

Does the army, etc. train our soldiers to hold it outside the elbow? If so, does anyone know why? The stock possibly getting caught on the elbow and slowing a soldier down seems like it would be a reason not to hold it that way, but what do I know.

Any opinions on this?

hornswaggled
02-14-2012, 10:18 PM
I don't know, but that sling-held, outside the elbow, across the body hold definitely looks modern and bad-***.

Noah3683
02-14-2012, 10:29 PM
Damn i never even noticed i do this until reading this lol. To me it just feels normal which I suppose may not always be the best way

Noah3683
02-14-2012, 10:34 PM
To elaborate it feels more normal and quicker for me to swing the buttstock back over my elbow to shoulder it than it does to swing it from under with a more forward motion to clear the armpit. I am not sure i am wording this how i visualize it lol. Also I'm sure this could vary for me with a different sling or ride height on the body

peter95
02-14-2012, 10:36 PM
can we post some pics of what is being talked about? may keep this thread more interesting also

killshot44
02-14-2012, 11:03 PM
Well, there's the "hunters" hold.....
http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSXHbpUK95LyantLzJM-S3tIrLfsgmVrHUViPlriYOoiltJYGAm

and there's the hold he's referring to.....
http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTHqJkr4f-1osghYZrdY_1KKUYDY_Etk5Lin6Lphq4An92G0nph

Methinks the top is quicker to the shoulder...

/ain't Google Images just the ish?

KrzyAzn1093
02-14-2012, 11:24 PM
Well, there's the "hunters" hold.....
http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSXHbpUK95LyantLzJM-S3tIrLfsgmVrHUViPlriYOoiltJYGAm

and there's the hold he's referring to.....
http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTHqJkr4f-1osghYZrdY_1KKUYDY_Etk5Lin6Lphq4An92G0nph

Methinks the top is quicker to the shoulder...

/ain't Google Images just the ish?

The two main reasons for carrying a long rifle in the latter position are 1. Its more natural and relaxed when you have a 1, 2, or 3-point sling, and 2. With longer rifles like full-length AR15's with full stocks, pulling the rifle above your shoulder is much faster and more accurate than firing from under your armpit when a target pops up at close range.

The "hunter's hold" probably would be faster to shoulder, but when you don't have time to properly shoulder your rifle or if you're rifle is just very long, the latter version is probably better. Ex: Marines commonly lay their M16's over their shoulder at a 45 degree angle when going room-to-room.

NewbieDave
02-14-2012, 11:43 PM
Try doing the old hunter carry when you are wearing body armor with a full load-out of your LBV on top of that, then you'll understand why you see people holding their rifles that way. While it may have something to do with length of rifle, but you see the same for carbines. Too much stuff below chest line to get caught as you bring the stock upwards. Its easier to swing the stock downwards to the shoulder, where the area should be clear of any pouches, radio, mags, etc.

I'm assuming you're talking about this type of hold... where you are weapon hot, moving around until a target presents itself?

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2556/3787181286_9b88cee7f2_o.jpg

The expanded use of LBV for both mil & private has training steer that direction. So if you going to train with a LBV in mind, why bother teaching the old hunter elbow carry. Also, in a modern day of rifle art, it's assume you're carrying your rifle among friendlies and you're not out their solo. So if you're around friends, carrying with muzzle pointed at the 10-11 or 2-3 o'clock position of your feet (depending on which is your strong side) is better then having your muzzle pointed in front of you. You can also turn corners, move around buildings, etc without having a muzzle out in front of you to get grabbed.

For range fun... it doesn't matter. But since I always use my range session to train... I always stand at-ease with the rifle across my chest, with or without LBV on.

motorwerks
02-15-2012, 9:17 AM
I think the difference may be in the fact that the ergonomics have totally change with the pistol grip. My ARs get held kind of like picture 2 where my shot gun gets held kind of in the middle of the two.

voiceoftheright
02-15-2012, 9:58 AM
Yes, the military designates certain carrying positions. They don't tell you to keep the stock inside your elbow or not and I think most people (like the troops in the 2nd picture) are merely patrolling that way, but the "alert" carry (alert to the dirt, muzzle down) should be carried in a manner in which you can shoulder the weapon the fastest. That's why the magpul dudes above have the stock basically where it can come straight up into their shoulders.

SilverTauron
02-15-2012, 10:21 AM
The Air Force teaches a "low ready" position with the M4/M16 held at a 45 degree hold with the stock above the elbow crossing the body left or right as the column dictates.It's about the only way to comfortably carry a 20" barrel rifle for long periods of time wearing body armor and chem gear on your back.It doesn't have much bearing on a civilian walking 5 minutes from his car to the range,so I would close by stating you can carry as you wish as long as its safe.

killshot44
02-15-2012, 11:33 AM
I think the difference may be in the fact that the ergonomics have totally changed with the pistol grip.

This.....

Capybara
02-15-2012, 12:08 PM
For our military/tactical experienced members, can you answer on this carry position would also much more easily facilitate carrying your weapon through doorways when moving into an indoor situation? Carrying as the guys do in the big picture above represents a much more streamlined profile so that you don't bang the butt or muzzle of the rifle on the doorway?

Dan

icenix
02-15-2012, 5:15 PM
Everything above is exactly why I asked. Just something I curiously thought about, but all makes sense. However, even in the pictures, they are holding their stock more in front of their shoulder rather than, I guess, what I talking about. I don't have time to search for the right picture (if I come across one, I will come back and post it), but I have just seen where a guy holds the back of his stock on the outside of his arm/elbow area, where his arm crosses underneath between the back of the stock and the pistol grip. I think you would see this a lot more if they weren't holding their guns downward in the pictures, but more side to side across the body. As a result, if you try to get in the ready position the bottom back of the stock can easily get caught on your arm while crossing it over. I can see how this may be a better way to hold the gun when you have other gear on though.

voiceoftheright
02-15-2012, 5:51 PM
For our military/tactical experienced members, can you answer on this carry position would also much more easily facilitate carrying your weapon through doorways when moving into an indoor situation? Carrying as the guys do in the big picture above represents a much more streamlined profile so that you don't bang the butt or muzzle of the rifle on the doorway?

Dan

It is called "short-stocking" when making entry into a room where essentially you eliminate the stock from use at all to get a better angle at the doorway/entry point. No one in these pictures posted is doing it and each entry will be different depending on which angle you take. Short-stocking is done mostly when you buttonhook a doorway so as not to silhouette your weapon before you enter. The overall goal is to get your weapon's muzzle in-line with your eyesight as soon as your muzzle breaks the plane of entry so you can fire if needed.

FatalKitty
02-15-2012, 8:37 PM
having the weapon's stock outside the arm requires less movement to bring it to a firing position on target.

especially if you have web gear - try out a 2-4 day "tactical" course and you will quickly learn what works and what does not


ALSO: Semper Fi to another 1/1 Marine!!! ^^^