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Blitzburgh
02-14-2012, 8:26 AM
As has been discussed here, a few of us from Southern Cal are heading up to Carmel to "compete" in the Swiss Match that will be held March 17th, 2012. I use the term "compete" loosely. I personally have never shot any kind of rifle match much less this Swiss match.

Here is a link to the Carmel Gun Club Website: http://carmelgunclub.com/

And here is a directly link to the page with the Swiss Match info: http://carmelgunclub.com/SWISS%20Matches.html

We plan on leaving from the Valley/Woodland Hills area on Friday night March 16th and driving up, checking into the motels/hotels, then while the significant others are out getting their nails done and the full Carmel Spa treatment on Saturday, we'll be shooting the match. We'll be coming home on Sunday.

Anybody who would like to come with us is more than welcome! There will be a few vehicles making the trip up and I will be taking my Suburban so I have more than ample room for extra bodies & gear. I will preface it with I smoke - like a chimney. SKSer45 will be riding up with me and possibly one of my other very close friends Jeff.

That being said we have a LOT of questions about this match and how it's all done. Jeff has been in contact with John Burky at the Carmel Gun Club but we are still pretty confused as to what exactly the rules are. A lot of the information is in German on the various sites and my German is horrible at best.

Here is a bunch of websites with info on the match:

Feldschiessen - 2012 Carmel Gun Club Swiss Shooting Season: http://feldschiessen.us/

Swiss Products, LLC - This is our own Latigo's website for the top notch products they make: http://www.swissproductsllc.com/

Graf & Sons - Direct link to the Swiss Products on Graf & Sons website: http://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/search/keywords/swiss+products?grafs_vendor_filter=159&grafs_sorting_flydown=popularity&_swat_form_character_encoding=%C3%A4%E2%84%A2%C2%A E&_swat_form_process=grafs_sorting_form&_swat_form_serialized__swat_form_process=auRBAfJoH pPQd2FWx7MVIQ%7Cs%3A18%3A%22grafs_sorting_form%22% 3B&_swat_form_hidden_fields=fDk71VXcXJddn45*bdDhwg%7C a%3A1%3A%7Bi%3A0%3Bs%3A18%3A%22_swat_form_process% 22%3B%7D

The Swiss Rifles Message Board: http://theswissriflesdotcommessageboard.yuku.com/

Swiss Rifles.com: http://www.swissrifles.com/

And a direct link to the Target specs on Swiss Rifles.com: http://theswissriflesdotcommessageboard.yuku.com/topic/8643

I wanted to get a thread up so any of us who plan on going or anybody that has questions about the match can chime in here. There has been a lot of discussion about it, but it's been broken into multiple threads so I thought it best to start a thread about the match and the match only.

And I want to thank Latigo for the wealth of information and knowledge that he's given us so far. He also has a sticky at the top of the forum on Swiss rifles and information pertaining to them. Thanks a TON Latigo! We could not have come this far without you!

Blitzburgh
02-14-2012, 8:30 AM
This is the info from the Carmel Gun Club about the Swiss match - I'm confused about how this actually works. Is it required to shoot the early stages before moving on? Are all 3 required for a Certificate or Ribbon? Any help on what exactly has to be done would be greatly appreciated!

There are three basic formats for Swiss Matches:

Obligatorisch - (required of all Swiss citizens; no medal awarded; may shoot rested)

sighters as required
5 rounds for record, A5 target, slow fire (1 round per minute)
5 sighters, B4 target, slow fire
5 rounds for record, B4 target, slow fire
2 rounds for record, B4 target, 30 seconds
3 rounds for record, B4 target, 30 seconds
5 rounds for record, B4 target, 60 seconds

Einselwettschiessen - (unrested, very challenging)

sighters as required
10 rounds for record, A10 target, slow fire

Feldschiessen - (NO sighters, rested)

6 rounds for record, B4 target, slow fire
3 rounds for record, B4 target, 60 seconds
3 rounds for record, B4 target, 60 seconds
6 rounds for record, B4 target, 60 seconds

Blitzburgh
02-14-2012, 8:36 AM
From the CGC Site:

All Swiss rifle shooting is done at a range of 300 meters, prone. For most of the shooting you may use a knapsack (or anything else you like) to rest your rifle on.

In communication with the club apparently "anything else you like" means anything that does not support the sides of the rifle is o.k. as a rest.

Is this o.k. as long as it does not touch or support the sides of the rifle? Frowned upon? I would think that it is included in "anything else you like" right?

http://www.dillonprecision.com/uimages/missing_images/10880_10883_protektor_front_bag_rifle_rest_m.jpg

SKSer45
02-14-2012, 9:02 AM
I will post up photos of our groups as well for 100 yards. Keep in mind though we were not using GP11 ammo due to Angeles no-steel rules. However we were using PRVI stuff and iron sights. Hopefully Latigo can point us in the right direction.

1-M-42
02-14-2012, 9:02 AM
I'm heading to Arizona for Spring Training, otherwise I'd be driving over from the Central Valley for this one. Hopefully, next time.

Good luck and have a good time.

Blitzburgh
02-14-2012, 9:04 AM
Good luck and have a good time.

Thanks! There are more matches coming up - check their website and maybe we can meet up there! :)

1911sr
02-14-2012, 10:22 AM
Hi guys! Lat won't be back till friday anyway, maybe not till saturday. The studio is on another deadline project and he's really running ragged.

If anyonw wants to try it, I'll tell you a real inside secret for open sights. The issue scope on the zfk55 has a sorta thick post like the front sight post on the k31, so everyone I know that shoots one lines up either the point of the left or right side of the post dead center bottom on the bullseye. That way you have an actual point to use. So if it works on the zfk55 scope post... :D It would work the same on the k31 front sight post, no? You just have to zero your front sight by moving it left or right. Right? :D

SKSer45
02-14-2012, 4:46 PM
Hi guys! Lat won't be back till friday anyway, maybe not till saturday. The studio is on another deadline project and he's really running ragged.

If anyonw wants to try it, I'll tell you a real inside secret for open sights. The issue scope on the zfk55 has a sorta thick post like the front sight post on the k31, so everyone I know that shoots one lines up either the point of the left or right side of the post dead center bottom on the bullseye. That way you have an actual point to use. So if it works on the zfk55 scope post... :D It would work the same on the k31 front sight post, no? You just have to zero your front sight by moving it left or right. Right? :D

right...and can we get one of those off your site? Because I really am trying to stick with Iron Sights and facing the fact every DIOPTER shooter is going to destroy me at 100 yards.

1911sr
02-14-2012, 5:59 PM
Get one of what SKSer? I mean use the sight blade that's already on your rifle. Instead of using the whole width and centering the target on top, use just one sharp corner of the blade. It sounds weird, but it works. :) Its easier to see just that corner than the whole blade, no? All you have to do is move the blade off center and use just the corner to sight in with.
Don't make me have to come down there cuz I'll bring a darning egg with me. :D

rojocorsa
02-14-2012, 6:05 PM
SKSer, tell me how that Prvi ammo turns out. Thinking of getting a little...

1911sr
02-14-2012, 6:09 PM
Its ok rojocorsa, but most of us pull the bullets and reload it with RE17 or 4064. :)
I'm going to bed. Nite guys!

rojocorsa
02-14-2012, 6:13 PM
Its ok rojocorsa, but most of us pull the bullets and reload it with RE17 or 4064. :)
I'm going to bed. Nite guys!

What's wrong with the standard powder?


And if its just for normal no-stress shooting, it should not matter, right?


Send our regards to Latigo from all of us Swiss rifle guys here.

SKSer45
02-14-2012, 8:31 PM
Get one of what SKSer? I mean use the sight blade that's already on your rifle. Instead of using the whole width and centering the target on top, use just one sharp corner of the blade. It sounds weird, but it works. :) Its easier to see just that corner than the whole blade, no? All you have to do is move the blade off center and use just the corner to sight in with.
Don't make me have to come down there cuz I'll bring a darning egg with me. :D

really??? hmmmm I think I know what your getting at. Any way you can take a photo of that? (Blade thing) PLease come down here! God Sakes we need your help...well at least I do because blitzy got his Diopter so I am sure he can dial it in real good.

I don't get it though 1911sr at 100 yards I was struggling yet at 300yards and 400 yards I was smashing an 12 inch steel target Iron sights.

rojocorsa
02-14-2012, 8:53 PM
She's saying to use the corner and use it as a precise aiming point.

SKSer45
02-14-2012, 9:06 PM
ahhh I got ya. Well that PRVI stuff aint to bad. I mean I hit 600 yards with it and was dead on at 400, 300, 200 yards iron sights.

ok so here we goo

This was after me and Blitz figured out we were hitting the A-10 but couldn't see it on the Spotting scope.

First relay.http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj14/BBer45/IMG_0815.jpg
Point of aim was high.

2nd relay was my best and was aiming above the target. I was dancing around the Bully eye. http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj14/BBer45/IMG_0816.jpg

3rd Relay was my best/worst. I dunno if it was fatigue, wind, or something but I was aiming same spot but hitting high and consistent. http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj14/BBer45/IMG_0817.jpg

So what do you think Latigo and Latigo Sister?

rojocorsa
02-14-2012, 10:44 PM
Were all of those @ 100yds?

SKSer45
02-14-2012, 10:49 PM
Yeah pathetic hu? Yet at 200, 300, 400 I was shooting the nuts off a Nat.

1911sr
02-15-2012, 5:12 AM
What's wrong with the standard powder?
And if its just for normal no-stress shooting, it should not matter, right?
Send our regards to Latigo from all of us Swiss rifle guys here.

Good morning! There's nothing wrong with the powder, but there is load data that makes it perform even better with a different powder. :) Its good stuff for practice. We've seen some scoped targets that are pretty good with PRVI. I think it's just more that our family has the habit of squeezing all we can get from a rifle and cartridge, no? :D

SKSer you don't need my help. Those Carmel guys will give you all the help you need. Swiss rifle shooters aren't like other clubs. They're much closer in their interests and I've never heard of one that didn't do everything he could to keep that spirit alive and growing.

Besides that, we St.Marie women have the habit of tapping the guys at the base of their skulls with porcelain Darning Eggs when they don't pay attention to what we're saying. Just ask Dad. This is part of Mom's collection. :D

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v87/zfk3155/DarningEggs2.jpg

And this is the one Dad fears most! :D

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v87/zfk3155/IMG_1991.jpg

rojocorsa
02-15-2012, 5:18 AM
Yeah pathetic hu? Yet at 200, 300, 400 I was shooting the nuts off a Nat.

It's OK, my first two K-31 rifle targers suck too, but now at least I know how the damn thing is dead on! :43:


My best K-31 target is still the one I shot back in November, when was introduced to the dark side. Look at everything inside the yellow circle. This was with someone else's gun. The underlined cluster are 3 of the 6 rounds in the circle.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/381554_1626201592483_1759851430_828046_646895332_n .jpg

The rest is Lee-Enfield No.4 .303 bullet holes. I swear I don't know what happened with some of those shots. Probably bad trigger pulls/or I rushed it.

1911sr
02-15-2012, 5:25 AM
Oops! I forgot rojocorsa. Lat just blew by me here and I gave him your message and he said "Hi" back as he jogged oout into the shop. :D
They're headed for the last day of phase two of this project and everyone ('cept me) is in a mild panic. They never seem to give you all of the project requirements till the day before deadline.

m1:)

SKSer45
02-15-2012, 5:35 AM
Good morning! There's nothing wrong with the powder, but there is load data that makes it perform even better with a different powder. :) Its good stuff for practice. We've seen some scoped targets that are pretty good with PRVI. I think it's just more that our family has the habit of squeezing all we can get from a rifle and cartridge, no? :D

SKSer you don't need my help. Those Carmel guys will give you all the help you need. Swiss rifle shooters aren't like other clubs. They're much closer in their interests and I've never heard of one that didn't do everything he could to keep that spirit alive and growing.

Besides that, we St.Marie women have the habit of tapping the guys at the base of their skulls with porcelain Darning Eggs when they don't pay attention to what we're saying. Just ask Dad. This is part of Mom's collection. :D

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v87/zfk3155/DarningEggs2.jpg

And this is the one Dad fears most! :D

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v87/zfk3155/IMG_1991.jpg

wow don't know if that is scary or sexy...1) knowing you can crush my skull with those fine looking eggs...or 2) shoot my sexual reproduction organs at 600 yards...hmmm interesting.

Ok so looking at my groups what do you think? I think I am dead in the water at 100 but have a chance to make ground at 300 yards.

1911sr
02-15-2012, 5:49 AM
You're not dead in the water at all. Keep practicing and make very sure that the way you hold the rifle (without a death grip, no?) is comfortable and is the exact same prone / stance and postition that you use every single time. Same grip, same amount of pressure, same sight picture.
There's no reason you can't do 2 to 2.5 moa at 100 yards. That's very usual unscoped.

SKSer45
02-15-2012, 6:02 AM
You're not dead in the water at all. Keep practicing and make very sure that the way you hold the rifle (without a death grip, no?) is comfortable and is the exact same prone / stance and postition that you use every single time. Same grip, same amount of pressure, same sight picture.
There's no reason you can't do 2 to 2.5 moa at 100 yards. That's very usual unscoped.

Right with out a death grip. I am very relaxed and smooth when I shoot. I squeeze the trigger after after my natural-point of rest, sight picture and sight alignment. Well that's the thing...me and blitzs rifles are night and day. He Has to shoot below the target for him to hit black and I have to shoot high (so I think). That doesn't sound right to me does it?

I mean call me crazy but after we had enough we started shooting 98k mauser and as sure as our Furher's birthday it was shooting dead on at 100 yards same stance, conditions and everything. My theory is because the mauser was already combat zeroed.

I mean is there a set way to zero a k31? I was reading what latigo and others put. 100 yards, aim below target and that should give me my zero.

1911sr
02-15-2012, 6:23 AM
Something not quite right. It may be the height of your front sight, and it sure sounds like it. You should be very close to "on" at the 100 meter setting on your rear sight. There are different front blade heights. The 1911 and k11 are notorious for having blades that are too short, but the k31 usually isn't a problem. There should be no hold-over or under required at all.
Go here, read it and then and check with Guisan. He has different height sight blades.

http://theswissriflesdotcommessageboard.yuku.com/search/text/forum/5?q=front+sight+blades

rojocorsa
02-15-2012, 10:00 AM
SKSer, what she said. Every time you shoot, do it the exact same way for consistency.


Normally, the K-31 is "on" at 100 and 200 meters, and you 6 oclock hold at 300m and further.

I've shot a total of two different K-31s, a 1946 and my personal 1953. The '46 was shooting high, so I had to hold the post low. You can see the results in the target I posted above, because I shot that one with the 1946.

When I first took out my own 'K, I thought it was going to shoot high too (like all other military rifles), but it turns out the thing was dead on, once I got more comfortable with the stock and remembered to do the trigger pull correctly.

I was so excited, a military rifle that's already zeroed at @ 100 in windage and elevation! Woohoo!

Blitzburgh
02-15-2012, 11:37 AM
O.k. - the sling on the K31 is making me crazy! Bites me in the cheek every single shot! I thought maybe at first that would be a good thing... make me skootch up on the stock more, I have a habit of getting a long ways back from the sights... but hope... still bites me every time.

I've turned the metal clip around backwords on the sling to see if that would help - nope.

The front of the sling is sewn on - any suggestions on how to not get bitten or how to take the sling completely off?

In other news recived my Diopter from Grafs that Latigo and Swiss Products made - niiiiiiice! I just have to get working with it now. Trigger time... trigger time... trigger time...

1911sr
02-15-2012, 11:41 AM
Blitzy you can remove the metal keeper. The whole thing can be disassembled. Maybe I can take a picture later today.:)

Blitzburgh
02-15-2012, 11:42 AM
Something not quite right. It may be the height of your front sight, and it sure sounds like it. You should be very close to "on" at the 100 meter setting on your rear sight. There are different front blade heights. The 1911 and k11 are notorious for having blades that are too short, but the k31 usually isn't a problem. There should be no hold-over or under required at all.
Go here, read it and then and check with Guisan. He has different height sight blades.

http://theswissriflesdotcommessageboard.yuku.com/search/text/forum/5?q=front+sight+blades

I'm also having an issue with my sights - for me to hit the center of the target my hold is about 8" BELOW the Target! Wow... something is just not right here... I figured it would be a little off... but 8" below the target - NOT the bull, but the bottom of the paper on the target... somethings whacky. SKSer45 and I were having quite the time getting things figured out at first - once we found where each of our rifles shot the groups tighten up each string... but still... wow... something's not right with my rifle....

1911... I'll get the extra wool Swiss army blankets out so you can sleep on my couch while you are here to test my rifle and get us on track. We really need the help and the match is only a month away. We are going to get our ****** handed to us. Bad.

1911sr
02-15-2012, 11:52 AM
Ok, so the rear sight is all the way down, no? Completley down. There isn't an adjuster under that rear sight on yours, is there? Flip the sight all the way up and look.
8" below the bull means your sight is too tall. Here's what to do. Take a piece of beige masking tape long enough to go around the muzzle and double back on itself. Join the two ends at the top next to your sight. First cut off 1/16" and use it to sight on the target. Keep cutting it off in small pieces till you're right on the bull center at 100 yards.
Now take a file and file down your front sight even with the top of the tape. :D Easy, no?

1911sr
02-15-2012, 11:55 AM
Wait! I read it wrong! Your sight is already too short. You'll have to get Guisan to send you one. Oof!:facepalm:
But maybe I can find one for you here in the US

1911sr
02-15-2012, 11:58 AM
Ok, so look at all the different ones he has down below. I'll check in the US in the meantime.

1911sr
02-15-2012, 12:05 PM
Never mind. I have it here.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v87/zfk3155/2.jpg

From left to right is lowest to tallest and the middle one is a standard height.
Standard K31 1.8 blades are all down the picture and up are the wider "old-eyes" variants.

Heights are 5.9, 6.2, 6.5 (standard), 6.8 and 7.1 mm. Changing out a blade by one step moves the POI at 300 meters by 7" (18cm) for a K11 and 6.3" (16cm) for a K31.

The lower row are the normal 1.8mm wide blades, the other rows are the wider ones as used for the senior shooters and for the ZfK55.

Cost;
New $ 12
used $ 6 (do not have the tallest basic ones no more).
Extra-tall aftermarket $ 22 for as well the K11 shorties as the 1911 series long rifles as both have a rear sight that starts at 300 meters !

Shipping from Europe included, average delivery time is 2 weeks.

Guisan.

Blitzburgh
02-15-2012, 12:59 PM
Ok, so the rear sight is all the way down, no? Completley down. There isn't an adjuster under that rear sight on yours, is there? Flip the sight all the way up and look.

First cut off 1/16" and use it to sight on the target. Keep cutting it off in small pieces till you're right on the bull center at 100 yards.
Now take a file and file down your front sight even with the top of the tape. :D Easy, no?

Yep - I should have put that in my post - I checked, then re-checked, then got a flashlight and checked again... nothing under the sight...

I filed and filed on it.. and now it's shooting 42 feet off! What have you done! Oh... nevermind ;)

Don't worry... the whole "back is true - front is reversed" gets me too... I have to hold my fingers out there and play it out physically to "see" it in my mind. :)

I see that there is markings on my front sight... I'll get a flashlight and see if my old eyes can determine what the number is then get ahold of Guisan and order a few different heights and get this thing shooting close.

Maybe I'll get SKSer45 to do the same and maybe we can order a few of them together and get both rifles real close.

As soon as I'm done fondling my P/S Diopter... oh man it's nice!

And 1911... Thanks SO much for the help! SKSer and I would be lost without some of the info you and Latigo and others have posted. :)

Blitzburgh
02-15-2012, 1:15 PM
Heights are 5.9, 6.2, 6.5 (standard), 6.8 and 7.1 mm. Changing out a blade by one step moves the POI at 300 meters by 7" (18cm) for a K11 and 6.3" (16cm) for a K31.

Even after years of trying to beat this into my brain, for some reason I'm still confused by front sight/rear sight adjustments.

So this is what I'm thinking, and I could be WAY off, but I just looked at my front sight - it has, in the upper right hand corner, a "1-". So if "one step" moves my POI my 6.3" at 300m, and my rifle appears to be about 7-8" off at 100 yards, should 3 steps bring it close at 300m? One step at 100y roughly equals 3 steps at 300?

I know yards/meters, etc. - I'm just trying to "rough it in" to get an idea, then I'll tighten it up once I'm close.

Being my rifle seems to be shooting high, meaning I'm aiming at the bottom of the target to get near the bulls eye, then my front blade needs to go up, right? 3 steps up?

Once I get it a little clearer in my brain I'll probably order the one I think I need, then one on each side of it - lower & higher. Maybe the same for SKSer so we can get his rifle closer. He's going to be shooting open sights at the match so he needs this adjustment a lot more than I do - I plan on using my beautiful new P/S Diopter from the wonderful Swiss Products, LLC :)

Blitzburgh
02-15-2012, 1:21 PM
Another quick question 1911... who else sells your Diopter other than Graf's? I see Grafs is out and Brownells does not have it listed on their site.

Anybody else have them?

Thanks!

1911sr
02-15-2012, 1:33 PM
Hi Blitzy. :D Graf's should have their new order by tomorrow at the latest. Here in the US we think that Simpson's ltd will carry them pretty soon too. Brownells used to carry them but the finding them there was almost impossible. Dad tried many times to get them to post the correct information and even the fact that they had them. Whoever is in their website design department isn't too knowledgeable.
After a year of not selling even one Diopter they gave up. During that same period Graf's sold over 100 of them that year.

I'll see if I can find a diagram of how sight elevations work for you.
I'll be back!! :D

SKSer45
02-15-2012, 1:35 PM
ok so took some photos and see what you think 1911. Plus I checked the sights for tape, anything irregular nothing.

http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj14/BBer45/IMG_0825.jpg

this has 1 * on it like the one in your photo but has no number at the bottom left.
http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj14/BBer45/IMG_0824.jpg

http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj14/BBer45/IMG_0823.jpg

This was my setting at 100 yards.

http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj14/BBer45/IMG_0821.jpg

Bout as close as I can get for sight picture and alignment.
http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj14/BBer45/IMG_0818.jpg

Blitzburgh
02-15-2012, 1:40 PM
Good work SKSer!

I think 1911sr and Latigo just might keep us from being totally embarassed at this match. Not that we will place in the top 90%, but at least not be the absolute bottom of the results! My buddy Jeff that is going with us I can easily rattle being that I've known him for so long and know just what gets under his skin... we'll make sure he's on the absolute bottom! ;)

SKSer45
02-15-2012, 1:43 PM
Good work SKSer!

I think 1911sr and Latigo just might keep us from being totally embarassed at this match. Not that we will place in the top 90%, but at least not be the absolute bottom of the results! My buddy Jeff that is going with us I can easily rattle being that I've known him for so long and know just what gets under his skin... we'll make sure he's on the absolute bottom! ;)

well **** might as well shoot your mauser at 100 and do the rest with the k31 to be honest with you. I mean I am not feeling to good at a 100 yards with this. Hell my para and Romy SKS can do better than that! It has to be something up for the rifle right?

Blitzburgh
02-15-2012, 1:47 PM
It has to be something up for the rifle right?

That's what confounds me. When something is this far off, I usually tend to believe it's the operator and not the tool. But we both were there, both went over and over and over it in our heads and in our notes. I would think that if it was the operator, one of us would have caught it, or seen it, or?

I'm still having a hard time believing my rifle is really that far off. We'll see... and with the diopter in place we'll have another point of reference soon.

1911sr
02-15-2012, 1:50 PM
I saw the problem right away SKSer. What's your name anyway??
There's a receiver imbalance cuz there's a toe sticking out of the left side!! :D

Is it just the photo or is the top of your sight blade filed at an angle?
First, I need you to draw me a simple sketch of your sight picture, then based on that picture, I need to see an x showing POI on a sketched target.

1911sr
02-15-2012, 1:59 PM
While I'm trying to find the one Lat has archived, look at these anyway.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v87/zfk3155/aiming.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v87/zfk3155/targ2.jpg

SKSer45
02-15-2012, 2:04 PM
I saw the problem right away SKSer. What's your name anyway??
There's a receiver imbalance cuz there's a toe sticking out of the left side!! :D

Is it just the photo or is the top of your sight blade filed at an angle?
First, I need you to draw me a simple sketch of your sight picture, then based on that picture, I need to see an x showing POI on a sketched target.

oooo I am horrible at drawing!!! Hehe yes that is my toe :P

ok let me see what I can do here....because in that photo I was just off.

SKSer45
02-15-2012, 2:13 PM
http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj14/BBer45/IMG_0828.jpg

http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj14/BBer45/IMG_0827.jpg

was using the score sheet as a target point in this photo. However at the range I was aiming above the target point and I mean above.

SKSer45
02-15-2012, 2:16 PM
and one more. I purposely did this at an angle. http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj14/BBer45/IMG_0826.jpg

rojocorsa
02-15-2012, 2:19 PM
A.D.I.D.A.S

All day I dream about shooting [my Karabiner], it's true.


Can you guys clear something up---are both your rifle and Blitz's shooting off?

SKSer45
02-15-2012, 2:21 PM
A.D.I.D.A.S

All dream about shooting [my Karabiner], it's true.


Can you guys clear something up---are both your rifle and Blitz's shooting off?

lol nice one ROJO. Yes both pending I can be free that weekend and do it. However we would be spotting buddies and go on the opposite relay. Think of it was twiddle-dee and twiddle-dumb.

rojocorsa
02-15-2012, 2:28 PM
So your gun is just not on at 100, but Blitz's is way the ___ off, correct?

SKSer45
02-15-2012, 2:30 PM
So your gun is just not on at 100, but Blitz's is way the ___ off, correct?

both of us ours at 100. however 200 and above its money. I mean that's crazy.

rojocorsa
02-15-2012, 2:33 PM
http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/005/545/OpoQQ.jpg

SKSer45
02-15-2012, 3:57 PM
http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/005/545/OpoQQ.jpg

I know I was actually getting frustrated at first. I calmed down a bit but still. I don't shoot garbage like that. Who knows maybe its a simple fix or something.

Blitzburgh
02-15-2012, 4:10 PM
http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/005/545/OpoQQ.jpg

That was exactly the look we were giving each other while shooting.

We would each shoot 6 rounds at a clean target while the other spotted. At first we were really confused because the rifles were WAY off! So during a cease fire we would put out clean targets, we covered every single hole on the target, cardboard backer, everything and try it again. Once we started to get a picture of what was going on then we could start getting onto the paper.

On my rifle, I had to aim at the bottom of the paper target to start showing up. Then I'd inch it down little by little and walk the shots into the bull. My camera is at work but I'll try to remember to bring it home and take pictures of my targets.

I had a sharpie and would write all over my targets when we pulled them. As each of us shot and the other spotted - we would mark the notes (the A10 target on a score card) and towards the end it was one shot, go over and look through the spotting scope, take another shot, etc.

When I finally started getting into the center of the target I was aiming below the bottom of the target. My final target has a note and an arrow written on it "Aim Point 7-8" below".

My front sight must be WAY off...

Once we were done we both picked up my K98 and shot a new target dead center over and over and over... so we somewhat ruled out operator error...

semperfaux
02-15-2012, 4:11 PM
That's what confounds me. When something is this far off, I usually tend to believe it's the operator and not the tool. But we both were there, both went over and over and over it in our heads and in our notes. I would think that if it was the operator, one of us would have caught it, or seen it, or?

I'm still having a hard time believing my rifle is really that far off. We'll see... and with the diopter in place we'll have another point of reference soon.

Trust me; In this case it is the operator. (or do I have to put another "magic" cartridge in your K31 like I did your Glock to prove it to you?)

Blitzburgh
02-15-2012, 4:30 PM
Trust me; In this case it is the operator. (or do I have to put another "magic" cartridge in your K31 like I did your Glock to prove it to you?)

Oh my word... look who it is.

Stinky... trust me on this one... we fired round after round... I had a few flinches and pulled it off a few times... but I definately "let it happen" and still shot 8" off. Heck... when it went off it scared the heck out of me a few times...

And I have a witness to prove it...

Then on top of it all, we punched the center out of a target with my K98, which has a much worse trigger than the K31...

Blitzburgh
02-15-2012, 4:33 PM
SKSer, 1911sr, Latigo, et all... let me introduce you to my very best friend in the world... now known as Semperfaux...

This is one of the few people in the world I would take a bullet for...

Oh no... I just remembered... I made a comment about him in this thread didn't I.... hahahahahahahahahaha ;)

1911sr
02-15-2012, 5:47 PM
Blitzy, please do something for me and then we'll talk about it afterwards.
Make me two targets, one at 25 yards and one at 50 yards. 6 shots on just the first target, and 5 shots on the second. No more. The first shot is to determine your point of aim. It it's to high or too low, then use a black paster to show you your true point of aim. Don't even think about where they group. I'll tell you why later.
If you have a bench where you shoot, please use it and sandbag the rifle.

This time, don't go to the end of the first stage, hesitate and squeeze. Forget about the trigger, focus on the target and slowly pull all the way through both stages. Don't look at where your hits are. Just focus on your sight picture, make sure each is the same picture, take a breath, let half of it out and don't hesitate, Slowly pull right through the trigger.
This is stuff my Dad taught me a long time ago, and it does work. I'll tell you why after you post your two targets.

Night guys! :)

1911sr
02-15-2012, 5:49 PM
Oops! I forgot my manners, no?
Very glad to meet you, Semperfaux:D

Nite!

rojocorsa
02-15-2012, 5:51 PM
Blitzy and SKSer, I'm still going like this:

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/005/545/OpoQQ.jpg

SKSer45
02-15-2012, 5:51 PM
yeah Gray Hair is right. We both spotted and we both had extremely different results but the 8inches above or below the target to aim was it. I mean we were like wtf? We are so dead in the tourney.

After shooting hundreds of rounds off swiss we bust out the old 98k and boom. I fired 4 shots and key holed them. Blitz was next and even with a sore shoulder I spotted him and boom. Key holed the paper. I mean that's pretty damn good considering going cold with the mauser and having to adjust to an entire trigger.

SKSer45
02-15-2012, 5:54 PM
Blitzy, please do something for me and then we'll talk about it afterwards.
Make me two targets, one at 25 yards and one at 50 yards. 6 shots on just the first target, and 5 shots on the second. No more. The first shot is to determine your point of aim. It it's to high or too low, then use a black paster to show you your true point of aim. Don't even think about where they group. I'll tell you why later.
If you have a bench where you shoot, please use it and sandbag the rifle.

This time, don't go to the end of the first stage, hesitate and squeeze. Forget about the trigger, focus on the target and slowly pull all the way through both stages. Don't look at where your hits are. Just focus on your sight picture, make sure each is the same picture, take a breath, let half of it out and don't hesitate, Slowly pull right through the trigger.
This is stuff my Dad taught me a long time ago, and it does work. I'll tell you why after you post your two targets.

Night guys! :)

well I actually did this at 50 yards to warm up...and holy **** I was grouping High! I was like ok is that good? Has to be right because its a long range rifle. I was aiming dead center and cutting the target in half just like in the photos you put up earlier.

Good advice from your dad that's what I do :)

SKSer45
02-15-2012, 5:54 PM
Blitzy and SKSer, I'm still going like this:

hmmm Rojo all I can say is play with your 98k mauser :) hehe

rojocorsa
02-15-2012, 5:57 PM
I don't have one, remember. I got the K-31 instead.

SKSer45
02-15-2012, 6:00 PM
I don't have one, remember. I got the K-31 instead.

o yeah du...hmmm well I all I an say is your shoots better than ours at 100 yards. I mean I dunno what to say pal. I should just forfeit the 100 yards part and go for broke at 300 because I was shooting so good at it.

Blitzburgh
02-15-2012, 6:21 PM
Blitzy, please do something for me and then we'll talk about it afterwards.
Make me two targets, one at 25 yards and one at 50 yards. 6 shots on just the first target, and 5 shots on the second. No more. The first shot is to determine your point of aim. It it's to high or too low, then use a black paster to show you your true point of aim. Don't even think about where they group. I'll tell you why later.
If you have a bench where you shoot, please use it and sandbag the rifle.

This time, don't go to the end of the first stage, hesitate and squeeze. Forget about the trigger, focus on the target and slowly pull all the way through both stages. Don't look at where your hits are. Just focus on your sight picture, make sure each is the same picture, take a breath, let half of it out and don't hesitate, Slowly pull right through the trigger.
This is stuff my Dad taught me a long time ago, and it does work. I'll tell you why after you post your two targets.

Night guys! :)

I will do exactly that. But it will be a few days before I get back to the range... I don't get to LIVE at a range! ;)

But I will do so and post the results. I apprecite the help! :)

rojocorsa
02-15-2012, 6:54 PM
This is a weird issue, SKSer,

Send me your 7.5x55 ammo and just shoot the Mauser, I guess... :43:

rojocorsa
02-15-2012, 6:55 PM
This is a weird issue, SKSer,

Send me your 7.5x55 ammo and just shoot the Mauser, I guess... :43:

Latigo
02-17-2012, 3:30 PM
I see my know-it-all(most) sister has been here. :D Actually, she knows a lot, so I'll wait for the results she asked you for. She really did have good reason to ask for what she did.
We'll pick it up from there. Long week. Must eat. Must sleep. Must....zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Blitzburgh
02-17-2012, 7:07 PM
Go eat and sleep... I plan on putting the Diopter on and sighting it in on Sunday, then I'll do as she asked and she can tell me how she thought I was jerking the trigger ;)