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View Full Version : PC section needed for mag "parts kit"


Tyson
02-13-2012, 6:57 PM
Does anyone have a reference for a section in the PC about having hi cap parts kits ?

I'd like to pick up a couple for when I travel out of state and I would like paperwork referencing the area which covers this ?

Thanks.

hoffmang
02-13-2012, 7:25 PM
The Penal Code only tells you what you can't do - not what you can do.

See this: http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/DOJ-large-cap-magazines-2005-11-10.pdf

-Gene

five.five-six
02-13-2012, 7:26 PM
please don't give them any ideas, we already have enough PCs to navigate as it is :facepalm:

huntercf
02-13-2012, 8:29 PM
Someone correct me if I am wrong, but parts do not constitute a magazine they are only parts, so they don't fall under any PC. The PC that covers magazines references manufacturing, importing, buying and selling in the state of CA. Since they are parts they are not regulated, as long as they stay that way. Except it is not against the law to possess high cap magazines, it is against the law to put a mag over 10 rds into a rifle with evil features.

Mrbroom
02-13-2012, 8:33 PM
Someone correct me if I am wrong, but parts do not constitute a magazine they are only parts, so they don't fall under any PC. The PC that covers magazines references manufacturing, importing, buying and selling in the state of CA. Since they are parts they are not regulated, as long as they stay that way. Except it is not against the law to possess high cap magazines, it is against the law to put a mag over 10 rds into a rifle with evil features.

But that doesnt mean I can have my repair kits assembled??

Tyson
02-13-2012, 8:34 PM
This is starting to be too much of a grey area for my liking.

Ok I just want to play devils advocate. Who's to say I am not "importing" even if in a parts ? Where is the line draw for such a situation.




please don't give them any ideas, we already have enough PCs to navigate as it is :facepalm:

You mean I should'nt go out in public/Starbucks with hi cap mag parts strapped to my side. :D

huntercf
02-13-2012, 8:42 PM
But that doesnt mean I can have my repair kits assembled??

I wasn't alluding to that, if you bring (or buy) a high cap parts kit into CA and then assemble it you have violated the PC (IANAL) by importing and/or manufacturing. My recommendation is if you buy a high cap mag out of state is to disassemble it before you enter the state. If you owned a high cap mag before the ban then you can use the parts to repair it. If you have a featureless rifle you can use high cap mags in it as long as you 'owned' the mag before the ban.

Tyson
02-13-2012, 8:42 PM
The Penal Code only tells you what you can't do - not what you can do.

See this: http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/DOJ-large-cap-magazines-2005-11-10.pdf

-Gene


Awesome link Hoffmang!

Thank you Thank you! :hurray:

Mrbroom
02-13-2012, 8:49 PM
Awesome link Hoffmang!

Thank you Thank you! :hurray:

Agreed.. Awesome link.. But here is another question I have now.. What if you dont own any standard (I like standard over hi cap) capacity magizines prior to 2000.. Is it still ok to have repair kits for them? It is soooo grey!!

Mrbroom
02-13-2012, 8:56 PM
I understand that folks do buy repair kits with the intent of making them 10/20 or 10/30 magizines.. And I do believe that is legal.. But I also dont trust the 58 DA's in the state that could look at this in a whole different way.. Where does the burden of proof stand? They guy who has a bunch of repair kits and no magazine prior to 2000 claiming he was going to make 10 rnd capacity mags.. I dont know.. I am not comfortable about the whole issue.. Why I put my trust and faith into CGF...

Librarian
02-13-2012, 9:52 PM
Parts is parts.

Keep the kits in distinct bags, or keep the separate parts in separate bins of base plates, followers, bodies and springs. They're not 'ammunition feeding devices' until they are capable of use in a gun to actually feed ammunition - assembled.

Connor P Price
02-13-2012, 10:00 PM
I understand that folks do buy repair kits with the intent of making them 10/20 or 10/30 magizines.. And I do believe that is legal.. But I also dont trust the 58 DA's in the state that could look at this in a whole different way.. Where does the burden of proof stand? They guy who has a bunch of repair kits and no magazine prior to 2000 claiming he was going to make 10 rnd capacity mags.. I dont know.. I am not comfortable about the whole issue.. Why I put my trust and faith into CGF...

I have greater than ten round parts kits which I have no intention of using to repair existing mags with, nor will I neuter them to a ten round capacity. If I'm shooting outside of California I assemble them once I've crossed the border, use them in their 15 round configuration and take apart before coming back. No grey area involved.

CHS
02-13-2012, 10:31 PM
But that doesnt mean I can have my repair kits assembled??

That would be a felony. Thanks for playing.

NotEnufGarage
02-13-2012, 10:41 PM
I have high cap mags for my Mini-14. Can I rebuild them into high caps for a featurless AR-15, since the mags for both do have some common parts (springs, followers, floorplates)?

Steve1968LS2
02-13-2012, 10:51 PM
I have a ton of standard cap 50-round PS90 parts kits.. they stay as parts until I get to NV.. then I assemble them and shoot.. then I take them apart BEFORE going back to CA.

I don't even shoot the poor gun in CA because it's so sad.. lol

Having standard-cap mags isn't worth the felony.. sure 10 rnds sucks, but going to prison sucks more.. so don't get cutsie with trying to skate the law.

Steve1968LS2
02-13-2012, 10:53 PM
I have high cap mags for my Mini-14. Can I rebuild them into high caps for a featurless AR-15, since the mags for both do have some common parts (springs, followers, floorplates)?

I would say no since a Mini-14 mag is not designed to work in an AR.. it would be like turning a BHP mag into a 92fs mag.

The risk of doing these things just isn't worth the reward.. besides, I heard the 10-round ban will be lifted in...

wait for it..

Two Weeks! :p

1911_sfca
02-13-2012, 10:56 PM
There is no PC for "parts kit"... it involves some back and forth in terms of opinion requests to the Cal DOJ (AG) a few years back. Since then, some on Calguns have taken a couple of very specific opinions and extrapolated those letters into a whole area of supposed law that doesn't actually exist. Tread at your own risk.

Connor P Price
02-13-2012, 11:04 PM
There is no PC for "parts kit"... it involves some back and forth in terms of opinion requests to the Cal DOJ (AG) a few years back. Since then, some on Calguns have taken a couple of very specific opinions and extrapolated those letters into a whole area of supposed law that doesn't actually exist. Tread at your own risk.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean here. What "supposed law" do you speak of? In what circumstance do you believe people should tread at their own risk?

dantodd
02-14-2012, 12:27 AM
There is no PC for "parts kit"... it involves some back and forth in terms of opinion requests to the Cal DOJ (AG) a few years back. Since then, some on Calguns have taken a couple of very specific opinions and extrapolated those letters into a whole area of supposed law that doesn't actually exist. Tread at your own risk.

Specifically what do you think people are advocating that is outside the law based on the letter Gene posted?

SJgunguy24
02-14-2012, 6:58 AM
I have boxes of mags for guns I don't own, I just bought em because eventually i'll get the guns to go with them. I actually had a cop tell me I needed to carry receipts for my mags.
This is aftet we went round and round that possession wasn't legal.
I put to him this way, would you carry a paper receipt for cash purchase from gun show 15 years ago?
His answer, well that's just insane, who would keep that around.

Well that's what you just asked me to do.

Steve1968LS2
02-14-2012, 7:11 AM
I have boxes of mags for guns I don't own, I just bought em because eventually i'll get the guns to go with them. I actually had a cop tell me I needed to carry receipts for my mags.
This is aftet we went round and round that possession wasn't legal.
I put to him this way, would you carry a paper receipt for cash purchase from gun show 15 years ago?
His answer, well that's just insane, who would keep that around.

Well that's what you just asked me to do.

Same here.. I've been buying and selling guns since the early 80s.. given the laws at the time why would I even have thought to keep the receipts since who could forsee our sad and pathetic current laws?

But the yahoo with an XDm or other new pistol is going to have a hard time explaining his standard cap mags.

1911_sfca
02-14-2012, 10:52 PM
Specifically what do you think people are advocating that is outside the law based on the letter Gene posted?

The letter answers specific questions about importing new parts "to repair a legally obtained hi-cap magazine."

Many people extrapolate this to mean it's legal to disassemble a newly manufactured magazine into parts, regardless of whether they already own a legally obtained large capacity feeding device that could be repaired with those parts. This is very gray area, subject to interpretation, and not addressed by this letter. The letter only talks about disassembled parts in the context of replacing parts from another magazine.

Some members of Calguns play very fast and loose with this, such as selling a gun with a "parts kit', regardless of whether the buyer owns a magazine for that gun which they would use the "parts" to replace.

Like I said, be careful. Use your head and read the letter Gene posted, not what people on Calguns interpret it, by extension, to mean.

Librarian
02-15-2012, 12:32 AM
The letter answers specific questions about importing new parts "to repair a legally obtained hi-cap magazine."

Many people extrapolate this to mean it's legal to disassemble a newly manufactured magazine into parts, regardless of whether they already own a legally obtained large capacity feeding device that could be repaired with those parts. This is very gray area, subject to interpretation, and not addressed by this letter. The letter only talks about disassembled parts in the context of replacing parts from another magazine.

Some members of Calguns play very fast and loose with this, such as selling a gun with a "parts kit', regardless of whether the buyer owns a magazine for that gun which they would use the "parts" to replace.

Like I said, be careful. Use your head and read the letter Gene posted, not what people on Calguns interpret it, by extension, to mean.


You're free to evaluate what might be a risk, and to accept whatever risk you choose.

That said, I think your apparent evaluation of parts kits as high risk is misplaced. In California, it is probably unwise to assign zero risk to anything related to guns. Errors by assorted levels of law enforcement can lead to arrest and legal costs, even when in fact no crime has been committed.

It IS legal to leave California and buy a large-capacity magazine out of state. Such a buyer, unless exempt, may not bring such a magazine back into California - that would be importing, and if detected, likely would be charged as a felony. Similarly, if reassembled inside California, that appears to be 'manufacturing', and again, if detected, likely would be charged as a felony.

But, disassembled, such a magazine is a collection of parts. It cannot be used as an 'ammunition feeding device' per PC 16740 - it may not seat in a magazine well, it will not retain rounds (because they'll fall out without a baseplate) and the rounds won't feed without a spring or follower.

This is distinctly different from firearms themselves (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/Definition_of_a_firearm/gun), which are defined in a way that does not allow inoperability to change their essential character.

cmichini
02-15-2012, 6:05 AM
I have boxes of mags for guns I don't own, I just bought em because eventually i'll get the guns to go with them. I actually had a cop tell me I needed to carry receipts for my mags.
This is aftet we went round and round that possession wasn't legal.
I put to him this way, would you carry a paper receipt for cash purchase from gun show 15 years ago?
His answer, well that's just insane, who would keep that around.

Well that's what you just asked me to do.

Talking with a cop. there's your problem right there. The genesis of F U D whose only equal is a Fudtard at a gunshop.
They have to enforce the laws but have no responsibility to know or understand them.
You just can't make this stuff up. It it wasn't so pathetic it'd be funny.

SJgunguy24
02-15-2012, 3:28 PM
Talking with a cop. there's your problem right there. The genesis of F U D whose only equal is a Fudtard at a gunshop.
They have to enforce the laws but have no responsibility to know or understand them.
You just can't make this stuff up. It it wasn't so pathetic it'd be funny.

First off I talk to a lot of cops and I try to steer them to CGN in hopes of them educating themselves. If you come to the shop I work at sometimes you'll NEVER HEAR FUD FROM ME PERIOD. I know the laws and if there is a question I don't have the answer for, I have a smart phone and the a few CGF board members on speed dial, along with our lawyers.
Educating is part of being an active member of this movement.

Mac7504
02-15-2012, 4:52 PM
I would say no since a Mini-14 mag is not designed to work in an AR.. it would be like turning a BHP mag into a 92fs mag.

The risk of doing these things just isn't worth the reward.. besides, I heard the 10-round ban will be lifted in...

wait for it..

Two Weeks! :p

Bahaha really?

GM4spd
02-15-2012, 5:24 PM
Some members of Calguns play very fast and loose with this, such as selling a gun with a "parts kit', regardless of whether the buyer owns a magazine for that gun which they would use the "parts" to replace.


This goes on for sure. Bad practice to say the least. Pete

mdimeo
02-15-2012, 5:32 PM
you come to the shop I work at sometimes you'll NEVER HEAR FUD FROM ME PERIOD. I know the laws and if there is a question I don't have the answer for, I have a smart phone and the a few CGF board members on speed dial, along with our lawyers.

Since you're here, I believe you. But I bet the FUD spreaders at all the *other* gunshops would say exactly the same thing with equal vehemence. Just sayin'. :)