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holiday
02-13-2012, 11:56 AM
hello,

i am in the market right now for a .308 rifle and i am on the fence here. i like these two models in particular but would like to hear what other fellow calgunner's/enthusiast's opinions, suggestions, and views. what better place to do that then here in the forums...and i have already searched and been researching.

i am open to pretty much anything, and my main concern here is the recoil. the rifle will be for all around battle rifle. something that can be used close in as well as reach out.

i already have a great ar15 that i really like so i am already set there. should i buy used or new? i always like new because you know what your getting but open to buying used and replacing parts as necessary to make new again.

anyways, thanks in advance. :)

HK Dave
02-13-2012, 11:58 AM
I prefer the Scout... and hate the Socom II. Socom 16 is nice, but I've read reports about its gas piston system being different and not as reliable? Don't know how true those reports are so I'd so some research if you're really looking to get the 16".

skark_burmer
02-13-2012, 12:22 PM
Deleted

Sumo99
02-13-2012, 12:25 PM
Between the 2, I prefer the scout squad. I really don't like the sights on the socom as I cant seem to hit anything past 200 yards with it. With the scout squad, I have no problem hitting steel plates out to 400 yards with irons.

However, if recoil is your main concern, then the socom would be better as it actually has less recoil than the scout squad.

Retzius
02-13-2012, 1:12 PM
The sights on the Socom are crude to say the least

H2O MAN
02-13-2012, 1:37 PM
i am open to pretty much anything, and my main concern here is the recoil. the rifle will be for all around battle rifle. something that can be used close in as well as reach out.

The Scout is probably the better choice, but a SOCOM equipped with SEI's SOCOM 16/II Kit (http://www.smithenterprise.com/imagesprod/socom_kit02.lg.jpg) is also a great choice.

Both will reach beyond 500 yards effectively.

Moonshine
02-13-2012, 1:48 PM
I once had a SOCOM... The rails add more weight than you'd think and unless you bullet button it, you can't really fully take advantage of the rails anyhow. Personally for the amount you're going to put up for a Springfield you could have an amazing AR-10 and enough money for some pretty top notch optics. Springfield is obscenely expensive but that's just my opinion.

Boltz
02-13-2012, 1:54 PM
I prefer the Scout... and hate the Socom II. Socom 16 is nice, but I've read reports about its gas piston system being different and not as reliable? Don't know how true those reports are so I'd so some research if you're really looking to get the 16".

The Socom does indeed have a modified gas system since the barrel is so short.

I have a scout and have never shot a Socom, but from everything I've seen and heard, the Socom has less muzzle climb because of the brake on it, which is also supposed to be much louder.

H2O MAN
02-13-2012, 2:10 PM
The Socom does indeed have a modified gas system since the barrel is so short.

Not true.

The barrel is 16.25" and the gas system is interchangeable with all other M14/M1A rifles.

The SOCOM does have a proprietary muzzle device.

slo5oh
02-13-2012, 3:47 PM
I had a scout, still miss it. dont let the recoil be an issue. At 180lbs I never had a problem. Of course a day at the range would always leave me bruised. I'm sure it has nothing to do with the fact I was blowing through 200 to 300 rounds.

gotshotgun?
02-13-2012, 5:19 PM
Pick the scout and don't look back. Also make sure it's wearing walnut!

Boltz
02-13-2012, 5:50 PM
Not true.

The barrel is 16.25" and the gas system is interchangeable with all other M14/M1A rifles.

The SOCOM does have a proprietary muzzle device.

I'm no expert on the M1A, but googling the Socom brings up plenty of references to the Socom's modified gas system. So I don't understand how my statement is not true :confused:

holiday
02-13-2012, 6:40 PM
awesome responses! as far as recoil, i am more referring to the effect of being able to get back on target quickly versus the shoulder.

totally agree on the II...really like the style but from what i have read these are super heavy...not my bag.

an ar 10 was considered, but although the sa's are pricey wouldn't i high quality ar 10 be about the same? as i mentioned, alreday have an ar style so i am looking for something different.

sights are important since i will probably keep them stock...maybe go with an optic...that could be the deal breaker.

thanks all thus far....please feel free to add in your comments

holiday out

BRO
02-13-2012, 6:58 PM
I have the Scout Squad and really enjoy it. My M1A was pricy but to me worth every penny. Mine shoots good at a 100yds but my eyes beyond that are no good, so I am putting a scope on it. I want to shoot the 300yd and the 500 yd line with mine.

Between the Socom and the Scout, you have to make that decision. But between the AR-10 and an M1A, buy both- one at a time.

Tack425
02-13-2012, 9:39 PM
I have had a SOCOM 16 and now a SCOUT. Both are great guns in their own right.
First SOCOM16: The sights suck. The rear sight you can drive a bus through and the front sight with the Tritium is fat and somewhat short. The synthetic stock IMO is trash, unless you want a gun you can beat up a little. The muzzle break is all one piece with the sight and gas system, while shooting is effective. I would recommend the SEI SOCOM break system. I was able to shoot it well and got 1.5" groups at 100yds. With that said remember what is is designed around, a "CQB" rifle.
The Scout: NM sights, ALL parts interchangeable with the standard M1A's. The walnut stock is awesome and just feels right to me. You can use any muzzle break you want on it, not the SA SOCOM16 (unless you spend $225 for the SEI SOCOM muzzle break like I did, then use anything you like).
BOTH rifles are great firearms and will out shoot most guys, like myself. Some guys talk about the loss of muzzle velocity due to the short barrels, so shooting past 500 is harder to do. Also the SOCOM and Scouts have less barrel whip with the shorter barrels so are possibly "more" accurate? To tell you the truth, If I start getting good groups at 500yds, Ill pat myself on the back and drink a few beers. You won't go wrong on either gun. Oh and by the way, buy used, save yourself some $$ on the gun and buy more ammo!

jeffrice6
02-13-2012, 10:35 PM
Scout!

H2O MAN
02-14-2012, 3:39 AM
I'm no expert on the M1A, but googling the Socom brings up plenty of references to the Socom's modified gas system. So I don't understand how my statement is not true :confused:

It's a common mistake, but rest assured that it's not modified.

Legasat
02-14-2012, 11:49 AM
I have the Scout Squad and am very pleased with it's performance.

rdubya
02-14-2012, 12:45 PM
I've been shooting my Scout Squad for about 4 years. I shoot it in Heavy Metal class 3 gun competition so I sent the trigger group to GunDoc and the pull is now down to a very smooth 3-4 lbs. Ocasionally I'll mount a Tripower or Aimpoint but normaly it is what it is.
Everyone who has shot it wonders why there isn't any recoil, for a 308, I guess it's the comp.
I also have a JD built 308 AR, it seems heavy and not as forgiving as the Scout about ammo. My vote, the Scout, especially if you already have an AR platform.

mocos
02-14-2012, 4:22 PM
I prefer the Scout... and hate the Socom II. Socom 16 is nice, but I've read reports about its gas piston system being different and not as reliable? Don't know how true those reports are so I'd so some research if you're really looking to get the 16".

gas systems are identical....I have both....and I prefer the socom....the two inch difference in the barrel lengths is ultimately neglible imho...and if you want a .308 caliber thumper, the recoil is there but with can be reduced with certain modifications that won't break the bank.

HK Dave
02-14-2012, 4:25 PM
How cool, never knew that. Guess its time to pick up a 16 and red dot it. :D

mocos
02-14-2012, 4:35 PM
I'm no expert on the M1A, but googling the Socom brings up plenty of references to the Socom's modified gas system. So I don't understand how my statement is not true :confused:

depends on if the reference includes the muzzle treatments as part of the gas system..otherwise from the compensators and gas locks back, the gas cylinder and gas pistons are the same.

H2O MAN
02-14-2012, 4:36 PM
Guess its time to pick up a 16 and red dot it. :D

That's a great plan!

This is my CQB-16 EBR with a red dot, she's one of my favorite M14s

http://www.athenswater.com/images/CQB-16-T1-HK660.a.jpg

mocos
02-14-2012, 5:15 PM
I have had a SOCOM 16 and now a SCOUT. Both are great guns in their own right.
First SOCOM16: The sights suck. The rear sight you can drive a bus through and the front sight with the Tritium is fat and somewhat short. The synthetic stock IMO is trash, unless you want a gun you can beat up a little. The muzzle break is all one piece with the sight and gas system, while shooting is effective. I would recommend the SEI SOCOM break system. I was able to shoot it well and got 1.5" groups at 100yds. With that said remember what is is designed around, a "CQB" rifle.
The Scout: NM sights, ALL parts interchangeable with the standard M1A's. The walnut stock is awesome and just feels right to me. You can use any muzzle break you want on it, not the SA SOCOM16 (unless you spend $225 for the SEI SOCOM muzzle break like I did, then use anything you like).
BOTH rifles are great firearms and will out shoot most guys, like myself. Some guys talk about the loss of muzzle velocity due to the short barrels, so shooting past 500 is harder to do. Also the SOCOM and Scouts have less barrel whip with the shorter barrels so are possibly "more" accurate? To tell you the truth, If I start getting good groups at 500yds, Ill pat myself on the back and drink a few beers. You won't go wrong on either gun. Oh and by the way, buy used, save yourself some $$ on the gun and buy more ammo!

here's a site with a woodstocked socom SEI gaslock with a Battle Comp brake and kickeeze butt pad....hopcousa.com

H2O MAN
02-14-2012, 5:55 PM
The SOCOM gas system is the same as the gas system found on all M1As.

The SOCOMs proprietary 1-piece gas lock/muzzle brake and it's threading are what's different.

fcr
02-15-2012, 10:45 AM
I'm no expert on the M1A, but googling the Socom brings up plenty of references to the Socom's modified gas system. So I don't understand how my statement is not true :confused:

He's right, SAI was going to change out my friends barrel for him in his SOCOM. I forget what was to be changed but it was minimal.

GillaFunk
02-15-2012, 10:56 AM
Scout!

Spend the bucks and get the Walnut. Fiberglass is nice, but accuracy fails.

Get the gas system unitized, and unless you are going to use it remove the front rail (disrupts barrrl harmonics/accuracy).

My Scout is BY FAR my favorite shooter:
- Semi-auto .308
- No bullet button
- Looks and feels bad arse
- NO BULLET BUTTON
- Not to mention semi-auto .308 WITHOUT A BULLET BUTTON

holiday
02-15-2012, 12:57 PM
are all of the scouts and socoms ca compliant? i don't want to get put out if i pick one up here soon.

Sicarius
02-15-2012, 1:21 PM
I have a loaded and socom 2. I bought the socom 2 because I had 1500 in SA credit and already had the loaded so the most rediculious M1a was ordered. Yes it is heavy but weight aids with recoil... not that the recoil is bad on an M1a. Socom is a fun gun. I know it catches a lot of flack here but I see nothing wrong with it. It is heavy but the lower rail comes off in 2 seconds. There is something to love about a stumpy M1a...
Kevin

H2O MAN
02-15-2012, 3:53 PM
I'm no expert on the M1A, but googling the Socom brings up plenty of references to the Socom's modified gas system.
So I don't understand how my statement is not true :confused:

There were some other differences with the very early SOCOM models and I
remembered reading about them, but didn't have all of the details until now.

This information is courtesy: Lee Emerson (Different)

New in 2004, the M1A SOCOM 16 model had a 16.25 " 1:11 twist six groove non-plated molybdenum-chromium alloy barrel and black hand guard and synthetic stock. The overall length was reduced about 7 " from the standard model to 37.25 ". The syntheticstock had a steel hinged butt plate. The hand guard was cut out to accommodate the installed M1A Scout Squad scope mount. This model was given a gas cylinder with a slightly enlarged gas port and proprietary design combination muzzle brake and gas cylinder lock assembly and gas cylinder plug. The SOCOM 16 gas system was designed by Dale Rader and first tested in 2003. The visible portion of the operating rod was stamped SOCOM 16 on 2004 production M1A SOCOM 16 models. The front sight was an XS Sight Systems 24/7 stripe post and the rear sight aperture had been enlarged to 0.125 ". This change in the sights was done to facilitate faster target acquisition at Close Quarters Battle ranges. The pre-production design gas cylinder plug was flush with the gas cylinder end. It was removed and installed with a hex head wrench. Between February and April 2004 the gas cylinder plug design was changed. Production models of the SOCOM 16 use a proprietary gas cylinder plug that can be removed and installed using a M14 combination tool. After the gas cylinder plug is removed, the combination muzzle brake and gas cylinder lock assembly can be unthreaded from the barrel. The barrel used on the SOCOM models has a proprietary muzzle thread, 43/64 " diameter with a pitch of 40 right hand threads per inch.

Early production SOCOM

http://i815.photobucket.com/albums/zz74/geepee3/GAsocom_012306E.jpg


In 2005, Springfield Armory, Inc. upgraded the M1A SOCOM 16 design with the introduction of three new models, the SOCOM II, the SOCOM II LE, and the SOCOM 16 Urban (AA9628). These new M1A rifles were debuted at the 2005 SHOT Show. The M1A SOCOM II LE is based on the 2004 M1A SOCOM 16 but with significant differences. It is equipped with a Vltor Weapons Systems (Tucson, AZ) supplied collapsing butt stock, a pistol grip and an aluminum rail mount system that surrounds the black color synthetic stock (see Folding and Telescoping Commercial Stocks and Rail System Mounts). The M1A SOCOM II LE is marketed to government agencies and military forces so it is not listed in the firm’s retail catalog or on its web site. The M1A SOCOM II is the same as the M1A SOCOM II LE but sports a traditional black color synthetic stock with steel hinged butt plate. The M1A SOCOM 16 models come in a choice of black color or black and gray camouflage pattern synthetic stock. The M1A SOCOM series models have been outfitted with the steel hinged butt plate or a rubber butt pad on the stock. The M1A SOCOM II operating rod is marked SOCOM II. The M1A SOCOM II and M1A SOCOM II LE models lose the front sling swivel because of the rail system mount. Additionally, these models retain the M1A SOCOM 16 rear and front sights but revert back to a USGI design gas cylinder plug.




Also, the SOCOM 16 actually started as a project for the military to find a short 7.62x51mm rifle but the project was dropped when the military complained about the muzzle flash and noise.

This and all other issues were resolved early in 2011 when Smith Enterprise, Inc. introduced their CQB-16 EBR at SHOT SHOW 2011.
Lee Emerson released the 1st pictures of the new rifle to the world... SEI shipped it to me a month later and it has become one of my favorite M14s.



.

holiday
02-15-2012, 3:53 PM
thats true...those with the II can remove the rail...but i think that is what cost the extra $ so if your not going to use it then why purchase it...just my thoughts. i am leaning towards the socom right now...probably because they are a little cheaper and i will most likely go with an optic anyways so the stock sites won't matter. i do like the walnut stock on the scout and from my research everyone is really happy with the scout but the same is not true with the socom....errr what to do. the socom would look nice with a walnut stock on it. anyways, thanks for the input guys.

holiday
02-15-2012, 4:13 PM
This and all other issues were resolved early in 2011 when Smith Enterprise, Inc. introduced their CQB-16 EBR at SHOT SHOW 2011.

Lee Emerson released the 1st pictures of the new rifle to the world... SEI shipped it to me a month later and it has become one of my favorite M14s.

checked out their site...looks quite pricey for a complete rifle

H2O MAN
02-15-2012, 5:51 PM
checked out their site...looks quite pricey for a complete rifle

High quality is never cheap in the M14 world...

plankowner
02-15-2012, 6:31 PM
I have a scout and would never trade it.great shooter

gorenut
02-15-2012, 6:50 PM
Wish I reloaded. I'd get an M1A in a heartbeat.

45R
02-15-2012, 7:38 PM
Scout

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v176/forty5r/IMG_9383.jpg

mcisniper
02-15-2012, 8:30 PM
I have the SOCOMII. LOVE IT! She is a cannon and every one at the range will stop and look. I shoot with flight gloves and the lower rail gives me something to grip (yes I know i need a sling but...)

Michael

cwin
02-15-2012, 8:37 PM
+1 for the Scout Squad. The Socom II is an even heavier version of an already heavy rifle. Unless you plan on putting a bunch of stuff on the rails, I'd probably go for the lighter one. Just my .02. Also, the recoil isn't bad at all.

colossians323
02-16-2012, 3:51 AM
Not many are saying this and you may only be looking for one, but I started with the scout, moved down to the socom, and moved back up to the M1A. I have had about 10 M14 rifles from different mfg in different configs and love the platform. I would suggest that you start with the scout and follow the same progression that I followed. I have whittled it down to 6 and that is just about right. I just saw a scout sell with the amega ranges rail sell for $1,100 in the classifieds. Someone got a real deal steal.

H2O MAN
02-16-2012, 4:32 AM
Not many are saying this and you may only be looking for one, but I started with the scout, moved down to the socom, and moved back up to the M1A. I have had about 10 M14 rifles from different mfg in different configs and love the platform. I would suggest that you start with the scout and follow the same progression that I followed. I have whittled it down to 6 and that is just about right. I just saw a scout sell with the amega ranges rail sell for $1,100 in the classifieds. Someone got a real deal steal.


You and I have traveled a similar path, about the same quantity with about
the same results... my favorite M14 type rifles have 18.0" barrels on them.

451040
02-16-2012, 9:29 AM
are all of the scouts and socoms ca compliant? i don't want to get put out if i pick one up here soon.

From the factory? Yes.

Muzzle brake = compliant
Flash suppressor = not compliant

holiday
02-16-2012, 10:11 AM
From the factory? Yes.

Muzzle brake = compliant
Flash suppressor = not compliant

thanks for the clarification.

this is a really tough decision. i have done the progression path with other firearms and this time i don't have the luxery of doing that...lots of time and money ( albiet well spent ;) )

ideally, i would like to make the right choice my first choice so i am going to really put more time into my research. i know that can only take you so far but hopefully that will eliminate or reduce the amount of uncertainty.

Sumo99
02-16-2012, 10:44 AM
Even though the scout is my personal favorite, if I could only have 1 M1a, I would get a 22" barrel in with a wood stock. Something about the original design with that long barrel in a wood stock just looks so good.

Sicarius
02-16-2012, 10:53 AM
My piece of advice, Get what you want at heart. When comparing these two, they are so close that there is really no wrong or uneducated choice. Your gut feeling will be your best in this situation. If one is more attractive or feels better, just do it. If you don't you will always look back and contemplate if you made the right decision. Treat this weapon as if it were your last and do not compromise. Whatever guidance people may give you, take it into consideration but you are the one paying for the firearm and you will have to live with it. Do not have buyers remourse in short.
Kevin

duc748bip
02-16-2012, 3:53 PM
Scout.. unless you like the "rail estate" to hang stuff on an already heavy gun..
BTW I been wanting to get rid on my Vltor cluster rail on my SOCOM as soon i can find a good stock and handguard. reason been the previous owner has drilled holes in the stock under the cluster rail. So PM me if you know where to find a drop in stock that I don't have to bed, and a replacement handguard.

Sicarius
02-16-2012, 3:57 PM
Check out ARF's marketplace. They have a M1a/M14 section that a lot of parts like stock and handguards pop up on.
Kevin

Andric
02-16-2012, 9:59 PM
I think you should go for the Scout, I have a Socom 16 and love it, but I also have an AR15. In my head now the AR is good for the 200 yards or less for accuracy & stopping power. The Socom can maybe go to 300 yards (yes, some will say more and we can argue that for days.)
So I say Scout because now you have a rifle that with some optics can reach out to 400 yards and drop something, it helps fill a hole in your capabilities.
But, the 16 is a great rifle which is why I haven't gotten rid of it. Multiple shots are not a problem the gun stays lined up perfectly and it gets noticed at the range for sure.

However, I will be adding an AR10 or M1 loaded into my inventory when possible.

joefrank64k
02-16-2012, 11:31 PM
I love my SOCOM 16...the sights, the reduced muzzle-climb, the weight. No problems, no issues.

I bought mine second-hand here on the boards, ANIB. They seem to sell for a good bit less than new. There always seems to be a SOCOM 16 or two in the F/S section. Great way to save a little $$$ for optics, mags, and a sling!

GiggleSwitch
02-17-2012, 12:19 PM
Although there has been some great advice given thus far, I think it really boils down to what you plan on doing with the rifle. Since these rifles aren't cheap I would start there and work backwards. Do yourself a favor and take a minute to do an honest assessment of what kind of "duty" you realistically foresee for this rifle. By "duty" I am referring to things such as: 25yd indoor ranges, 300+yd outdoor ranges, Carbine courses, etc. By doing so you might just save yourself the headache of buying the wrong one the first time around. That is pretty much the dilemma that I am currently facing except that my choices are between the Scout and the Loaded model. Hope this helps.
Cheers,
Ryan

nyc71
02-17-2012, 2:43 PM
I had the same dilema as you so I started with the Scouts then bought the SOCOM 16. I find myself shooting the SOCOM because I don't want to oil up the walnut stock & ruining it.


"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety"- Benjamin Franklin

sammy
02-17-2012, 4:05 PM
You need to look at the velocity loss going with a 16" barrel in the .308. The rails on the Socom are ridiculous and very heavy (IMO). After owning the Scout and shooting the Socom I am not a fan of Springfield rifles. I had lots of problems with mine, replaced extractors, receiver ect..

In my opinion take the cry once approach and look at the LRB 18" rifles. The best M14 type rifles on the market. http://www.lrbarms.com/

You can get chrome lined barrels as well!!