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50 Freak
03-29-2007, 11:02 AM
Have a question....lets just say you have a registered AW and the supporting DOJ paperwork in your wallet. So your completely legit.

Let's say you just went to the range and as you are driving back home you get pulled over. A LE asks the routine...."do you have any weapons in this car".

You know that saying "yes I do" will give him the right to "inspect your gun" for his safety (which is a bunch of crock). Then you will sit on the sidewalk in cuffs while he tears your car apart for the next hour.

You know that if you say "No I don't" and the LE pushes it more you can refuse to give him access to your car without PC. At that time, it's a 50/50 chance you drive off with no problems or he pushes it and you spend the next hour while he tears your car apart.

Other members on this board has suggested "No I do not have anything illegal in this car" approach which in my opinion raises a red flag for the LE and he will question you more on "do you have any firearms LEGAL or ILLEGAL in this car"....then you're back to square one.

So my question is. If you decide to chance it and say, I don't have any weapons in this car, but he decides to search anyways. The rifle is legal and that is not the point of contention. But the fact you lied to the LE, is there possibility in him busting you for that?

FreedomIsNotFree
03-29-2007, 11:05 AM
Lying to a police officer is not a crime in CA in and of itself.

If however, the Officer is investigating a crime then they could come up with something like hindering an investigation..something like that.

The question is, when asked during a traffic stop if you have any guns/drugs/etc.etc. in the car is the officer investigating a crime or merely asking a question?

I would argue that its an irrelevant question to the matter at hand and there is no current crime that is being investigated.

eje
03-29-2007, 11:13 AM
You can decline to answer if asked about weapons in the car. Why not do that? Declining to answer alone would not provide probable cause to search.

50 Freak
03-29-2007, 11:15 AM
Declining to answer opens up the door to more questioning. As I believe it will raise the LE's flags...and make him wonder "what's this guy hiding".

hoffmang
03-29-2007, 11:16 AM
You can generally lie to a LEO unless he's investigating a crime that has already occurred. You can always chose not to answer which is safer however.

Note that you can not lie to a Federal LEO at any point based on current jurisprudence (what 5th amendment?) and you should either not answer or refer all questions to counsel.

-Gene

bwiese
03-29-2007, 11:16 AM
You can decline to answer if asked about weapons in the car. Why not do that? Declining to answer alone would not provide probable cause to search.

That is true, and/or "There are no illegal items in this vehicle" statement.

I don't know if lying to local cops could be considered 'interfering in an investigation' - may depend on relevance of statements to any perceived crime.

Now, lying to the FBI is a crime - ask Martha Stewart. If an FBI agent asks you a question *NEVER* answer him. Refer to counsel, etc.

mstlaurent
03-29-2007, 11:18 AM
I've never been asked if I have any weapons in my car when I was pulled over for a routine stop. Is it just me?

eje
03-29-2007, 11:20 AM
Declining to answer opens up the door to more questioning. As I believe it will raise the LE's flags...and make him wonder "what's this guy hiding".

It might but if you're not answering questions and are otherwise "probable-cause proof" then you aren't going to get searched and don't have to worry about lying to an LEO.

FreedomIsNotFree
03-29-2007, 11:24 AM
There are obviously a myriad of ways this type of scenario could play out based on what was said and asked etc. etc.

The original question was...."the fact you lied to the LE, is there possibility in him busting you for that?"

We should stick to that question rather than going on and on about the thousands of different variables that could come in to play.

dfletcher
03-29-2007, 11:43 AM
As an amatuer when it comes to the law - but having a few LE friends - I think it is accurate to say that if the police want to arrest you for something they shall. It is my contention there are sufficient laws and the police have enough authority and leeway to arrest me for something as I merely walk from Market & 6th to Mission & 5th. Arrest, yes - make it to court & convict? No.

While the "Do you have any weapons in the car?" question may be routine and at the time clearly perfunctory, and no penalty attached for lying, I suspect if guns were subsequently found that the Officer would after the fact decide he had, after all, been conducting an investigation.

E Pluribus Unum
03-29-2007, 11:54 AM
You Say:
"I respectfully decline to answer that question"

Cop Hears:
"I am a poophead and I'm hiding something; harass me"

medic707
03-29-2007, 11:57 AM
you have any weapons in this car".


Other members on this board has suggested "No I do not have anything illegal in this car" approach which in my opinion raises a red flag for the LE and he will question you more on "do you have any firearms LEGAL or ILLEGAL in this car"....then you're back to square one.



Yeah ive read these threads in the past and always thought that tactic would work very well especially around where i live and work. Most the cops i know through work and outside of work have the attitude "your guilty till proven innocent" and trying to dodge a question is going to cause more suspicion. And i know that not all cops are like that but alot of the ones i know have that air about them. Also about declining a search as one sergeant told me at scene "theres ways around everything" although i know it might all ways be legal alot of times its going to be your word against his, and as the song goes "i fought the law and the law won" i feel its futile to argue with a cop

I feel a good offence is a good defense Dont get pulled over. Drive the speed limit and obey traffic laws but i know $#!T happens and im still wondering what i will do when confronted with that question.

WokMaster1
03-29-2007, 12:07 PM
I would love to hear from our LEO members here.

Bill, I have to try that with the FBI agents that come to my place for dinner? Agents: What's good on the menu tonite? Me: On the advise of counsel, I plead the fifth!:D

berg
03-29-2007, 12:08 PM
I have nothing to add to the question except to say a shooting buddy had this experience:

After shooting at Chabot he was pulled over by I think an Oakland PD officer. I believe he was still on Redwood Road in the park. He drove a mini-van with several pro-gun bumper stickers on the back, and inside the van (the last row of seats were removed) he had laying in plain view an uncased Yugo SKS, a bolt rifle and several ammo cans.

The officer saw all the stuff in back but didn't care. He was cited for speeding and then left. My friend is a guy in his 50's with an accent. He was real nervous about what the cop would do and it turned out it was no big deal.

ask80
03-29-2007, 12:37 PM
well officers normally don't ask you "if you have any weapons or drugs in the car?" unless they know you are on probation , parole, have had previous encounters with LE, you are acting shady or questionable( like coming from a high crime area or high narcotics area or it's late at night or you're a gang member, etc). most of the other times if you're pulled over for speeding or some other minor infraction, they won't ask that. most veteran officers know when to ask that questions. it's like a hunch.

and if you said said no to a consentual search, then the officer has to have some good PC to search. otherwise, there won't be no search.

Jicko
03-29-2007, 1:13 PM
I've never been asked if I have any weapons in my car when I was pulled over for a routine stop. Is it just me?

If you have some ammo cans in your back seat, or a rifle bag... or something like that..... (especially if your car do not have a trunk to store those items.... eg. SUV that don't have a cover in the back....)

Matt C
03-29-2007, 1:28 PM
I'm going to go with "there is nothing illegal in this car officer". If he asks something else, repeat that, or say nothing. Unless you have commited an arrestable offence, or your tags are not paid, or your vehicle is somehow not legal to drive, he will have to let you go. If he does not, he is opening himself up to an IA complaint. Most cops are not going to waste their time like that, the streets are full of much worse criminals than OLL owners, who DON'T know the law.

But yes, lying to LE can get you into trouble, and he will probably know if he has been around for a while, so why lie?

aileron
03-29-2007, 1:45 PM
I've never been asked if I have any weapons in my car when I was pulled over for a routine stop. Is it just me?

I have had a gun stuck into my back (92FS to be exact) while 3 other officers covered officer One with their sidearms from their cars. Then officer one handcuffed me and sat me down on the cold concrete for half and hour when my friend answered, "yes we are going shooting" to that question.

ViPER395
03-29-2007, 1:48 PM
In my dealings with cops, it goes two ways, and you can tell in the first 5 seconds.

1. Cop is a decent human being. You treat him with respect, you get respect and a speedy visit, maybe a ticket, maybe a "drive safe, sir"

2. Cop is an arsehole, and determines you to be either a threat, or a milquetoast. Either way, he's not going to stop pushing.

I've had my vehicle searched with NO PC. Basically I had five cop cars there blocking me in (I guess they'd thought i'd try and high speed escape from a gated apartment complex??), and being a naive 18 yr old I didn't know my rights or what to say. Basically they had my GF out of the passenger seat and were already searching under seats and in her purse. This reminds me I love Folsom Police. Kinda tough to say no to a search when you've got a cop laying on your passenger floor looking under your seats and dash.

Anyways, my point is that those cops are going to get what they want, regardless. There are no rights for you because they are cops, and you are not. Therefore you are the enemy until you prove yourself not.

Hopefully you get to deal with respectable/respectful cops... I think they're a dying breed.. I have a few times, and they were good to go with little trouble, and much respect, sometiems a little chit chat.

I have to say Sac Cty Sheriffs Deputys are some of the nicest LEOs i've dealt with.

SkyStorm82
03-29-2007, 2:01 PM
Wow.....sure is a lot of "us vs. them" in this thread. Funny how there's no cops posting here that had contributed to that mentality.

ETA: ...contributed to that mentality on this thread.

Matt C
03-29-2007, 2:11 PM
Wow.....sure is a lot of "us vs. them" in this thread. Funny how there's no cops posting here that had contributed to that mentality.

That mentality is the biggest problem in LE today IMO, community policing has vanished to be replaced with gestapo policing. My problems with that are the reason I'm banned from the O.com board, that place is nothing but "we are cops and we are better". Barf.

50 Freak
03-29-2007, 3:20 PM
I've never been asked if I have any weapons in my car when I was pulled over for a routine stop. Is it just me?

Must be as I for one was pulled over for speeding...(no problem, I was cruising downhill on the grapevine doing 10-15 over the posted speed limit as was everyone else).

Anyways, never gave the Chiper a hard time or anything. But was handcuffed and made to sit by the side of the freeway and had my car search...

When it was all done, I asked the LE what made him do that. His answer "your T-Shirt"....I was wearing a black T-shirt with a small logo on the front that looked like this.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v309/JustaBlokeAnywhere/browning_logo.jpg

Then you wonder why I ask a question about lieing to an LE.

I honestly have an immense respect for the LE community. Just seems like the shift has been lately that there are more A-holes than good guys. Wasn't always that case though.

Guns R Tools
03-29-2007, 3:30 PM
When asked "Any weapons in the car?"

How about "I don't think so." Would that be lying if you have some in the car? all legal rifles/guns of course.

Richie Rich
03-29-2007, 3:43 PM
It is an "us against them" mindset in the LEO community. All "citizens" are below LEOs, all "citizens" are liars, thieves and guilty of something.

Trust me, most cops think that anyone not connected to law enforcement are turds. There are a few exceptions but they are very rare.

How do I know? I grew up in a family full of LEOs.

mstlaurent
03-29-2007, 3:55 PM
Must be as I for one was pulled over for speeding...(no problem, I was cruising downhill on the grapevine doing 10-15 over the posted speed limit as was everyone else).

Anyways, never gave the Chiper a hard time or anything. But was handcuffed and made to sit by the side of the freeway and had my car search...

When it was all done, I asked the LE what made him do that. His answer "your T-Shirt"....I was wearing a black T-shirt with a small logo on the front that looked like this.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v309/JustaBlokeAnywhere/browning_logo.jpg

Then you wonder why I ask a question about lieing to an LE.

I honestly have an immense respect for the LE community. Just seems like the shift has been lately that there are more A-holes than good guys. Wasn't always that case though.

Yeah, I guess I'm a little more "under the radar" when I'm driving with guns. When I'm going to the range I probably look like I could just as well be going to Home Depot. And my ammo is usually in the back footwell in some Walmart bags, so unless he looks really closely he isn't going to see anything unusual. Plus I can count on one hand the number of times I've been pulled over in my life.

Dont Tread on Me
03-29-2007, 3:57 PM
The ACLU has an excellent video on surviving police encounters.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqMjMPlXzdA

"Yes that is my current addres", "I don't consent to searches" and "no comment" is about all I will say to a LEO without a lawyer.

Bill is right on with Martha. Turns out her stock dealings were legal. Her lying about them were not.

Dont Tread on Me
03-29-2007, 4:32 PM
You Say:
"I respectfully decline to answer that question"

Cop Hears:
"I am a poophead and I'm hiding something; harass me"

No the cop has is a hunch but he does not have suspicion and certainly not probable cause unless you give it to him either by opening your mouth or leaving gun stuff in plain sight in your vehicle.

Remember if you're not a crack head who spent half his life in jail you have a lot of credibility when testifying in court.

You can read our very own Department of Homeland Security's training material for LEOS on this. The staircase metaphor is very useful.

http://www.fletc.gov/training/programs/legal-division/podcasts/transcripts/4th-amendment-transcripts/probable-cause-i-podcast-transcript.html


Miller: What if he refuses to stop or to be searched?

Solari: Whichever step your standing on determines the legal action you can take. Since we’re at the bottom of the staircase, all we have is a hunch. There’s not much else the officer or the agent can do, aside from maybe trying to convince this person to stick around for a little bit longer; but at the end of the day, the agent is going to have to let that person walk away if that’s what the person wants to do.

AJAX22
03-29-2007, 5:33 PM
Answering 'I dont think so' or 'I don't know' is a BAD idea

it's like saying 'It's my friends car and I don't know whats in it'

It's probably the biggest red flag you can trip short of snorting a line of coke off of the officers ticket book.

triggerhappy
03-29-2007, 5:53 PM
Must be as I for one was pulled over for speeding...(no problem, I was cruising downhill on the grapevine doing 10-15 over the posted speed limit as was everyone else).

Anyways, never gave the Chiper a hard time or anything. But was handcuffed and made to sit by the side of the freeway and had my car search...

When it was all done, I asked the LE what made him do that. His answer "your T-Shirt"....I was wearing a black T-shirt with a small logo on the front that looked like this.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v309/JustaBlokeAnywhere/browning_logo.jpg

Then you wonder why I ask a question about lieing to an LE.

I honestly have an immense respect for the LE community. Just seems like the shift has been lately that there are more A-holes than good guys. Wasn't always that case though.

umm, so having a shirt means it's OK to be treated like cattle? I have a nice answer for that...

And while I'm at it, why the respect for the cops? Seriously. Do you respect the waitress on her feet all day? The gardener? The accountant?

Matt C
03-29-2007, 6:02 PM
And while I'm at it, why the respect for the cops? Seriously. Do you respect the waitress on her feet all day? The gardener? The accountant?

Are you going to call any of those folks when your kid does not come home from school? When you elderly grandparent calls you while you are on vacation to say there is someone in the house? When someone is ripping off the bank which way are those folks running?

Dont Tread on Me
03-29-2007, 6:10 PM
I'm not sure why we are talking about being respecting LEOs. Is asserting one's fourth and fifth amendment amendment rights disrespectful? I don't think it is.

triggerhappy
03-29-2007, 6:13 PM
Interestingly enough, I don't call the cops. Ever. Out of the pitiful number of decent humans with badges, there are scores of worthless thugs who I wouldn't trust as far as I could throw the collective lot of 'em.

Case in point. http://rense.com/general76/del.htm

Yeah, if my granny needed a hand, I'd call a biker group instead. At least they have a code of ethics.

KenpoProfessor
03-29-2007, 6:24 PM
Interestingly enough, I don't call the cops. Ever. Out of the pitiful number of decent humans with badges, there are scores of worthless thugs who I wouldn't trust as far as I could throw the collective lot of 'em.

Case in point. http://rense.com/general76/del.htm

Yeah, if my granny needed a hand, I'd call a biker group instead. At least they have a code of ethics.


All I can say is EEEEEEEEKKKKKK, this is happening more and more frequently all over the US and it scares the hell outta me.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

midnitereaper
03-29-2007, 6:40 PM
Please give some thought into what you all are saying about cops here. Do you really think they are thugs and anti-american? Hope not! They do their JOB to the best of their ability. They are trained how to do that job and thats all they learn is their job. It is up to all of you to properly educate the officer on freedom, liberty and justice for all. Every time I see a cop in a store or on the streets I will ask them for a bit of their time. I will ask them if they know about the OLL sitiuation here in CA. Do they understand it and if not I try to explain it to them. I would rather educate the cops on their job than have it be us against them. Little of this comes from personal experience too. In the Marines we are trained to fight and follow orders. Gov tells us to go fight and we obey. It is up to all of you to make sure we fight the right fight!

I understand were most of you are coming from with the mentality of cops as I have had troubles with them(freakin rookies) also. If they flip you an attitude then explain that this is not the proper way in dealing with citizens and he or she is not above the law. If they still insist on giving attitude then simply write down their badge number and call their sgt and report them. After a certain amount of reports against the officer they should be fired.

24_minutes_to_1000
03-29-2007, 6:50 PM
That mentality is the biggest problem in LE today IMO, community policing has vanished to be replaced with gestapo policing. My problems with that are the reason I'm banned from the O.com board, that place is nothing but "we are cops and we are better". Barf.

I find your observation to be extremely accurate. With the militarization of police forces all over, the gestapo tactics and mentality are ever more prevalent.

IMO, municipal police departments are THE definition of a standing army, the bane of Thomas Jefferson and so many of the great men who founded this once great and free republic, now a shell of it's former self with the attendant lip service to "freedom" and obligatory wet eyes at the sight of a flag and the sound of the Star Spangled Banner, but little of the true substance of a nation of free people.

MedSpec65
03-29-2007, 7:03 PM
I've been a licensed CA driver for 46 years. I'm a Registered Process Server and drive close to 300 miles on busy days. I've had the usual speeding tickets that go along with using the roads this much, but have never been asked if "I have guns in the car" or "anything illegal". I'm a completely sober-looking guy in his sixties. The question I have for other members here is this: I've heard that the fact you are a legal gun owner shows up on LEO monitors when they call in your plate prior to pulling you over. Do your legal gun purchases show up on your plate or your driver's license? Or do they show up at all on a routine traffic stop?

Bolt2Bounce
03-29-2007, 7:45 PM
I've never been asked...but I'd lie about a firearm in the car if I had been asked. If you admit you've got a gun legal or not, they are going to search... if the gun a gray area gun your going to get a arrested... if you lie and they search and find your gun you can always fight the search as being not a legal search... just my opinion. I don't have anything against cops I have friends that are copers and most cops are good people....but the bad apples always spoil the whole lot.... B2B

Matt C
03-29-2007, 7:48 PM
I've been a licensed CA driver for 46 years. I'm a Registered Process Server and drive close to 300 miles on busy days. I've had the usual speeding tickets that go along with using the roads this much, but have never been asked if "I have guns in the car" or "anything illegal". I'm a completely sober-looking guy in his sixties. The question I have for other members here is this: I've heard that the fact you are a legal gun owner shows up on LEO monitors when they call in your plate prior to pulling you over. Do your legal gun purchases show up on your plate or your driver's license? Or do they show up at all on a routine traffic stop?

Generally, no. NCIC type stuff is actually pretty restricted in my experience.

6172crew
03-29-2007, 8:10 PM
I keep hearing how the Police are becoming more military like but the LE have always been a "Para-military" organization.

Go take a Police dept test and that is what the job title says....been that way for a long time and is why they like folks who have served in the defense dept. The fact is the citizens have become more military and the cops have responded to the threat.

Look at the hollywood shootout, that was straight up military as well as some others that started in the 60's....nope nothing has changed about the policies of the police deptartments across the US as far as I can tell.

SWAT has been around for a long time and they are always trying to stay one step ahead with tactics and gear.

SunshineGlocker
03-29-2007, 8:25 PM
Lieing to an LEO is a terrible idea as everyone has said. You can decline to answer the question, or you can give a non-answer like, "I don't have any dangerous objects in the passenger compartment of this vehicle" or something like that. An answer like that is your best answer.

Raising red flags is fine. If he wants to ask more questions that's fine. Whatever. I want to ask Bill Gates why he doesn't get a better haircut. We all want something.

tman
03-29-2007, 8:35 PM
SWAT has been around for a long time and they are always trying to stay one step ahead with tactics and gear.
I recommend this film to anyone: http://etspictures.com/urbanwarrior/

It does a really good job detailing the history of the SWAT unit.

The SWAT unit is basically the governments detour around the Posse Comitatus Act, or anything else that prevents the military from being used as a police force in the United States.

SWAT teams are basically military units. Same gear, same weapons, same training, same mentality, etc.




Getting back on topic...


An approach similar Bolt2Bounce's is likely the one I would take. Just don't answer the questions, don't consent to a search or give any reason for a search. If they perform a search anyway, they are breaking the law.

After they do the illegal search, you can turn around and fight it. From what I understand, even if they did find illegal items in your car, if the search was unconstitutional, nothing found can be held against you. People whom are knowledgeable in this area might be able to confirm this.

How successful and how much time and $$$ would it take to fight and be successful? That's the real question.

HowardW56
03-29-2007, 8:49 PM
I've never been asked if I have any weapons in my car when I was pulled over for a routine stop. Is it just me?


Neither have I.....

Rhys898
03-29-2007, 8:54 PM
It is up to all of you to properly educate the officer on freedom, liberty and justice for all.

If they flip you an attitude then explain that this is not the proper way in dealing with citizens and he or she is not above the law. If they still insist on giving attitude then simply write down their badge number and call their sgt and report them. After a certain amount of reports against the officer they should be fired.

Dude, I've been pulled over lots of times, and I'm always respectful and have frequently been let off with a warning, even when by law the cops should have impounded my car (tags more than 6 months out of date). But, The couple of times I've tried to talk to cops about legalities of things the nice cop went out the friggin window to be replaced by pissed off cop who can't believe a "civilian" is going to try to teach "him" about the law.

It's NOT our job to teach the police what is legal and how to act, it's the police academy and senior/training officers jobs.

Jer

eta34
03-29-2007, 9:05 PM
I guess I should chime in here from the LEO perspective. First, there is a ton of misinformation floating around here. When we pull a car over, nothing alerts us to your gun ownership. In fact, we are fairly restricted as to that information (which I agree with). We aren't able to find out if you have been arrested before (your "rap sheet") without good cause. Believe it or not, this stuff is audited and departments get in major trouble for violations.

Second, I have never asked a citizen on a routine traffic stop if he/she has any weapons in his possession. Frankly, I really don't care if you do or you don't, as long as you aren't pointing it at me. I will ask the probationer or parolee who I am taking out of a car for a search that question...obvious reasons why.

Third, I don't agree with the "us vs. them" mentality. I think it exists at a much smaller level than some people on this board portray. I see certain cops that I can't stand to work with; ones who think they are better than "the average citizen." However, the vast majority of us believe we are "the average citizen" and try to make a difference in our jobs. I don't think it is accurate to paint the entire profession as arrogant jerks because a few of us are idiots. I don't think you would do the same to doctors, mechanics, waitresses, or any other profession.

Fourth, I am 100% behind gun rights. I believe that every non-felon and sane person should be able to buy the firearm of his/her choice. Heck, carry it on your hip for all I care...just don't point it at me and we will be fine. If you have a gun in your car and I ask about it for some strange reason, tell me the truth, lie to me...I really don't care. If you are not on probation or parole, don't have an arrest warrant, or aren't commiting a crime, I am not going to search your car anyway.

Finally, I ask those very few people who have little or no respect for LEOs to put their money where there mouth is. Since you believe we are arrogant jerks who only hassle you, please do not call us for any reason. When your child goes missing, don't call me. I won't put out a BOLO or Amber Alert and try to help you. I won't ask all neighboring police agencies to help look.

Please understand that I believe the vast majority of the public are hard-working, decent folks, just like me.

Matt C
03-29-2007, 9:13 PM
Please understand that I believe the vast majority of the public are hard-working, decent folks, just like me.

In case you did not notice, I am an LEO myself, and I disagree, at least as far as not haveing the US vs. THEM mindset. I would really like to know what dept. you work for, only because I want to visit this utopia myself, go for a ride along, and maybe even put in an application. I am guessing it's a very small dept., but you tell me. PM me if you don't want to post it.

midnitereaper
03-29-2007, 9:13 PM
Dude, I've been pulled over lots of times, and I'm always respectful and have frequently been let off with a warning, even when by law the cops should have impounded my car (tags more than 6 months out of date). But, The couple of times I've tried to talk to cops about legalities of things the nice cop went out the friggin window to be replaced by pissed off cop who can't believe a "civilian" is going to try to teach "him" about the law.

It's NOT our job to teach the police what is legal and how to act, it's the police academy and senior/training officers jobs.

Jer

If you leave the training of cops to the cops then you will soon have your war of cops versus civilians. Understand this. The academy and training officers teach cops the law and only the law. You need to teach them liberty! And yes it is YOUR job along with EVERY American to properly teach cops and military their function in this country. Freedom isn't free! You have to always work for freedom by teaching people what freedom is about.

eta34
03-29-2007, 9:21 PM
I work for a small department in LA county...I stand by what I say. I don't think I am better than any citizen I encounter. That certainly doesn't make my department a "utopia."

Matt C
03-29-2007, 9:23 PM
I work for a small department in LA county...I stand by what I say. I don't think I am better than any citizen I encounter. That certainly doesn't make my department a "utopia."

Compared to say, LAPD, it certainly does. And there are hundreds of small Depts. in LA, maybe you are LAX police?:p

tman
03-29-2007, 9:24 PM
eta34 - From your post above, I think there should be a LOT more police officers like you.

You say that the vast majority are the same as you described, and I hope that is true. Please understand that many of us here have had experiences with officers who are very different.

Personally, I've had experiences with both. I've had experiences with officers that seemed to be too concerned with actually fighting crime than to waste time harassing normal people. I was respectful to them, they returned that respect, and life went on. Also, recently, had an experience with an officer who was harassing me and trying to get me to incriminate myself with slick questions and intimidation for something I didn't do - all for no apparent reason.

Since you're a "good cop", maybe all your "bad cop" colleagues hide their true colors around other officers like yourself.

jerryg1776
03-29-2007, 9:31 PM
And while I'm at it, why the respect for the cops? Seriously. Do you respect the waitress on her feet all day? The gardener? The accountant?

Actually yes, I show respect to everybody until they show me they are not entitled to it regardless of occupation. I am thinking that the statement you made did not come out as intended..everybody deserves to be treated respectfully.

As to what to say to that question. I would have to inquire why that line of questioning came up and what exact relevance it has to the situation at hand and go from there.

Dr. Peter Venkman
03-29-2007, 9:47 PM
The officer already would know that you have a registered AW after he runs your 1028 or 1027 from dispatch. If you are coming from the range, go ahead and tell him that you have your AW in the car and show him the paperwork. Lying to LE never helps. Lying usually means you are trying to cover up something illegal, which the majority of perps LEOs come in contact with do; they start making up lies and stories. When you tell the truth you don't have to remember what you said.

The department I am an explorer for (Morgan Hill, obviously) for the most part is very lax and easy-going, and a good lot of them are gun guys. So in my opinion, tell the truth. If you don't, it might cause some problems:

"Do you have any guns in the car?"

"No, sir."

"Where are you coming from?"

"The rifle range..."

24_minutes_to_1000
03-29-2007, 10:20 PM
The officer already would know that you have a registered AW after he runs your 1028 or 1027 from dispatch. If you are coming from the range, go ahead and tell him that you have your AW in the car and show him the paperwork. Lying to LE never helps. Lying usually means you are trying to cover up something illegal, which the majority of perps LEOs come in contact with do; they start making up lies and stories. When you tell the truth you don't have to remember what you said.

The department I am an explorer for (Morgan Hill, obviously) for the most part is very lax and easy-going, and a good lot of them are gun guys. So in my opinion, tell the truth. If you don't, it might cause some problems:

"Do you have any guns in the car?"

"No, sir."

"Where are you coming from?"

"The rifle range..."


Why would you feel a need to answer either of those questions if posed to you by a LEO?

grammaton76
03-29-2007, 11:24 PM
Why would you feel a need to answer either of those questions if posed to you by a LEO?

He never said you needed to answer them - only that you shouldn't lie. Silence is an option...

jdberger
03-29-2007, 11:53 PM
I have a friend (who is a girl but not a girlfriend) who when asked a question that makes her a little uncomfortable or that she doesn't want to answer, tilts her head, bats her lashes and replies, "My, you're pretty.".

It sure is distracting.

Much better than:

LEO: "Do you have any weapons in the car?"

YOU: "Look, a bunny!"

hitnrun
03-30-2007, 12:19 AM
I've never been asked if I have any weapons in my car when I was pulled over for a routine stop. Is it just me?

No it's not.

Some people are EXTREMELY paranoid and even afraid of what they don't understand. Especially around here.:rolleyes:

hitnrun
03-30-2007, 12:26 AM
The officer already would know that you have a registered AW after he runs your 1028 or 1027 from dispatch.

In CA, neither a 10-28 (DMV Registration check of a vehicle) or a 10-27 (DMV records check of driving status) will show a listing for any AWs. In my experience, the only way to check the registration info on a firearm is to run the serial number through CLETS (10-29 since you're big into codes). If it is a long gun, it will not show a registered owner. However, an AW will show a hit for an R/O and an address.

I have only done this twice. Nobody got cuffed, or had there car searched. Nobody went to jail and nobody got a ticket. Standard procedure really. If you had reported your firearm stolen and a LEO came across a vehicle with a bunch of firearms in it...wouldn't you like the weapons checked to possibly get your guns back?? Yes, you would, but not if that meant having to answer the cops questions during a traffic stop?!?! I suppose some of you guys only consider it harassment when it doesn't help you or work to your advantage, BUT if we find your gun, then we were just doing our jobs...right? :rolleyes:

hitnrun
03-30-2007, 12:34 AM
I've heard that the fact you are a legal gun owner shows up on LEO monitors when they call in your plate prior to pulling you over.

No.

Do your legal gun purchases show up on your plate or your driver's license?

No.

Or do they show up at all on a routine traffic stop?

No.

hitnrun
03-30-2007, 12:37 AM
I guess I should chime in here from the LEO perspective. First, there is a ton of misinformation floating around here. When we pull a car over, nothing alerts us to your gun ownership. In fact, we are fairly restricted as to that information (which I agree with). We aren't able to find out if you have been arrested before (your "rap sheet") without good cause. Believe it or not, this stuff is audited and departments get in major trouble for violations.

Second, I have never asked a citizen on a routine traffic stop if he/she has any weapons in his possession. Frankly, I really don't care if you do or you don't, as long as you aren't pointing it at me. I will ask the probationer or parolee who I am taking out of a car for a search that question...obvious reasons why.

Third, I don't agree with the "us vs. them" mentality. I think it exists at a much smaller level than some people on this board portray. I see certain cops that I can't stand to work with; ones who think they are better than "the average citizen." However, the vast majority of us believe we are "the average citizen" and try to make a difference in our jobs. I don't think it is accurate to paint the entire profession as arrogant jerks because a few of us are idiots. I don't think you would do the same to doctors, mechanics, waitresses, or any other profession.

Fourth, I am 100% behind gun rights. I believe that every non-felon and sane person should be able to buy the firearm of his/her choice. Heck, carry it on your hip for all I care...just don't point it at me and we will be fine. If you have a gun in your car and I ask about it for some strange reason, tell me the truth, lie to me...I really don't care. If you are not on probation or parole, don't have an arrest warrant, or aren't commiting a crime, I am not going to search your car anyway.

Finally, I ask those very few people who have little or no respect for LEOs to put their money where there mouth is. Since you believe we are arrogant jerks who only hassle you, please do not call us for any reason. When your child goes missing, don't call me. I won't put out a BOLO or Amber Alert and try to help you. I won't ask all neighboring police agencies to help look.

Please understand that I believe the vast majority of the public are hard-working, decent folks, just like me.

I see you beat me to it. I would have saved time if I had read through everything first.

Instead, +1 this. :)

rorschach
03-30-2007, 12:38 AM
In CA, neither a 10-28 (DMV Registration check of a vehicle) or a 10-27 (DMV records check of driving status) will show a listing for any AWs. In my experience, the only way to check the registration info on a firearm is to run the serial number through CLETS (10-29 since you're big into codes). If it is a long gun, it will not show a registered owner. However, an AW will show a hit for an R/O and an address.


I dont know if this is policy for some departments (I know it was for CHP) or if it is statute, but my old department's policy was not to transmit AW info over the air. Had to be either MDT (which we had very few of at the time) or land line. Is this the same at your dept??

hitnrun
03-30-2007, 12:43 AM
I've had my vehicle searched with NO PC. Basically I had five cop cars there blocking me in (I guess they'd thought i'd try and high speed escape from a gated apartment complex??), and being a naive 18 yr old I didn't know my rights or what to say. Basically they had my GF out of the passenger seat and were already searching under seats and in her purse. This reminds me I love Folsom Police. Kinda tough to say no to a search when you've got a cop laying on your passenger floor looking under your seats and dash.



Do you recall whether or not you had your current registration card in the vehicle?;)









































Of course you did.:rolleyes:

But if you did not...


That's a little insider tip for you honest law abiding folk. :)

The vehicle code can be your friend...or your enemy. Learn it and use it to your advantage. Afterall, that is what we get paid to do.

hitnrun
03-30-2007, 12:44 AM
I dont know if this is policy for some departments (I know it was for CHP) or if it is statute, but my old department's policy was not to transmit AW info over the air. Had to be either MDT (which we had very few of at the time) or land line. Is this the same at your dept??

This is true. I had to use a cellphone both times to confirm the R/O. However, only when it is an AW registration check (unless there is some bizarre exigency). It is not necessary on a stolen firearm check. You can check an assault weapon to see if it stolen over the air, however, to confirm the R/O, it has to be done off air via MDT or phone or what have you. Good point.

eta34
03-30-2007, 7:09 AM
I will second what has been said. When I pull over a car, dispatch tells me if the registration is current, the make/model of the vehicle, and the registered owner information. In addition, if there is a warrant attachment or if the car is stolen/wanted in a crime/or listed as a missing person vehicle, they will tell me that. Unless I forgot something minor, that is all. No gun info, no criminal history of the driver, nothing else.

heycorey
03-30-2007, 7:24 AM
umm, so having a shirt means it's OK to be treated like cattle? I have a nice answer for that...

And while I'm at it, why the respect for the cops? Seriously. Do you respect the waitress on her feet all day? The gardener? The accountant?


There are a half-dozen cops in my family too ... and I'm generally not one for flames, but

Ask the gardner about the last time he had to clean up the puke (from some drunk *******) out of the back seat of his car ... or would you rather have the drunk ******* not get arrested, but keep driving till he plows into you in a head-on car crash?

Ask your accountant about how much money he has to pay out of his own pocket in medical expenses for the lower back injury he sustained while chasing down and struggling with a felon - because his medical insurance coverage ran out - or perhaps you'd rather the next time a cop sees a wanted felon, maybe he should think twice about the pursuit(?).

The only time anyone ever calls a cop is when there's problem so crappy or dangerous they don't want to deal with it themselves. There are *******s in every profession, including policework. But most cops are just decent folks trying to do a pretty thankless job that few people ever give them credit for.

Seriously.


Oh, and if you tell a big enough lie to a cop or otherwise give him an itch he really wants to scratch, as a cop I know once said ... you may beat the wrap, but you're going to take the ride.

elsolo
03-30-2007, 7:37 AM
Maybe some of us are just harassment magnets.

If you have never had the pleasure of being pulled over and accused of engaging in illegal activities, count your lucky stars.

Multiple times I have been pulled over for no reason, ordered out of the car and onto the curb, asked dozens of questions, consented to a quick vehicle search (nothing in it) just to speed up the process, and let go without any tickets or warnings. It seems that after 10pm, some cops like to go on fishing expeditions. I do fear what would occur if this happened when I had a trunk full of guns going to the range.

FWIW: I am a clean cut white guy in my 30's, no tats, short hair, freshly shaved, shirt tucked in, respectfull "yes sir" "no sir" kind of guy, and I drive a Buick. I don't think I am begging for harassment, but I get it anyhow.

SkyStorm82
03-30-2007, 7:50 AM
Maybe some of us are just harassment magnets.

If you have never had the pleasure of being pulled over and accused of engaging in illegal activities, count your lucky stars.

Multiple times I have been pulled over for no reason, ordered out of the car and onto the curb, asked dozens of questions, consented to a quick vehicle search (nothing in it) just to speed up the process, and let go without any tickets or warnings. It seems that after 10pm, some cops like to go on fishing expeditions. I do fear what would occur if this happened when I had a trunk full of guns going to the range.

FWIW: I am a clean cut white guy in my 30's, no tats, short hair, freshly shaved, shirt tucked in, respectfull "yes sir" "no sir" kind of guy, and I drive a Buick. I don't think I am begging for harassment, but I get it anyhow.


You wouldn't be driving around Lynwood...Compton...South LA after 10 PM would you. Guy fitting your description in those areas at night....something is strange. Of course it's your right to, but it will raise eyebrows.

I doubt this is your situation though so take it for what it's worth.

mstlaurent
03-30-2007, 7:51 AM
So, the cops are twitchy because they see stories all the time about cops getting shot during routine traffic stops by perps with an axe to grind. Gun owners are scared because they think LEOs see them as perps until proven otherwise, and they don't want to be on the receiving end of excessive force. Everyone is at least a little afraid that even a routine law enforcement encounter can turn to harassment, or even to violence.

So what can we do to defuse this? How can a law-abiding gun owner approach an encounter in a way that will put the officer at ease and let the encounter pass smoothly and without harassment, without being deceitful or dishonest? Any suggestions from either side of the aisle?

KenpoProfessor
03-30-2007, 7:57 AM
So, the cops are twitchy because they see stories all the time about cops getting shot during routine traffic stops by perps with an axe to grind. Gun owners are scared because they think LEOs see them as perps until proven otherwise, and they don't want to be on the receiving end of excessive force. Everyone is at least a little afraid that even a routine law enforcement encounter can turn to harassment, or even to violence.

So what can we do to defuse this? How can a law-abiding gun owner approach an encounter in a way that will put the officer at ease and let the encounter pass smoothly and without harassment, without being deceitful or dishonest? Any suggestions from either side of the aisle?

Damn, why didn't I think of writing this?:)

Great question, now let's see the answers.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

KenpoProfessor
03-30-2007, 8:00 AM
You wouldn't be driving around Lynwood...Compton...South LA after 10 PM would you. Guy fitting your description in those areas at night....something is strange. Of course it's your right to, but it will raise eyebrows.

I doubt this is your situation though so take it for what it's worth.


So here's the bigger question, why would it raise eyebrows? Basically, this is just profiling, no different than finding an old hoopdie in Beverly Hills or Bel Air with a tatooed Hispanic or Black driver at that time of night right?

I'm with you, it would raise eyebrows though.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

battlehatch
03-30-2007, 8:05 AM
Whenever I get pulled over I just do what I can to make the officer more comfortable. I usually turn my dome light on so he can see inside, keep my hands on the wheel. I don't scrounge around for my paperwork, I wait until I am asked for it. When asked, I let the officer know that my licence is in my wallet in my back pocket and my registration is in the glove box and that I am going to get them in that order. I don't move fast, everything is deliberate, just how I'd like it to be if I were a cop and on the other side of that car door. I don't give any more information that he asks for, I just answer "yes, sir." and "no, sir". Being that I don't have anything to hide, if they ask to search my vehicle, I usually consent. I see alot of folks here argue that they don't have a right to search my vehicle or whatever but I really don't mind. I figure they are just doing their job. The only time I have ever been searched was when I was in highschool and was involved in an altercation after school. I was pulled over, searched for weapons, questioned, and since there were witnesses saying it was self defense, I was let go. I do understand that people want to exercise their rights, good for them, I prefer to comply and move on.

Matt C
03-30-2007, 8:15 AM
I guess I kinda thought everyone knew this stuff already. Ok, here is Blackwater's Guide to getting stopped by the Law:

1. As soon as you see the blue lights hit your right blinker, reduce your speed (don't slam on the brakes please) and pull over as soon as it is safe to do so. Stop in an area that id safe for the officer/deputy/patrolperson ("him" from here on) to approach you vehicle. If possible, angle your vehicle slightly toward traffic (this will allow him to see you better, not really that important).

2. When you stop, do not get anything out of the glovebox, your wallet, ect, keep your hands on the steering wheel. If it is dark, turn on your interior light. Wait. (if he is taking a long time, he is probably just as annoyed as you are, the NCIC computers are horrible).

3. When he approaches your vehicle make sure your window is down. Move deliberately and calmly, no rapid nervous movements. If he asks you for paperwork or ID, let him know where it is, and ask if it is OK for you to reach and get it out. Do not make any excuses, argue, ect. You don't need to ask why you were stopped, he should inform you shortly and he may have been trained not to tell you right away.

3. If he asks any questions you are not comfortable answering, tell him as much, TONE goes a LONG way here, if you are frank and polite about it chances are he will be as well.

4. If you do all this and the guy still seems to be on some sort of fishing expedition, and is repeating questions at you, then being nice is not working. Ask if you are free to go. If yes, then go. If no, than ask for a supervisor. Continue asking until one arrives. Explain to the supervisor that you would like to know why you are being held and possibly arrested. Be POLITE, not confrontational. If they still won't let you go, well, you have that lawyer on speed dial right?

blackberg
03-30-2007, 8:56 AM
You wouldn't be driving around Lynwood...Compton...South LA after 10 PM would you. Guy fitting your description in those areas at night....something is strange. Of course it's your right to, but it will raise eyebrows.

I doubt this is your situation though so take it for what it's worth.

My sister's boyfriend gets that, always gets pulled over after leaving the house if he runs in to a cop on the way to freeway after 10pm, like he said, clean looking guy with no tats/record/etc

Ill be around later than him and I have had no issues...

elsolo
03-30-2007, 9:01 AM
You wouldn't be driving around Lynwood...Compton...South LA after 10 PM would you. Guy fitting your description in those areas at night....something is strange. Of course it's your right to, but it will raise eyebrows.

I doubt this is your situation though so take it for what it's worth.

I know what you mean, but I don't frequent those specific areas.
I may be driving through drug selling areas, I don't know. I'm not really in-the-know on where to score dope.

I have figured out that three guys in the same car gets pulled over a whole lot more than one guy. I used to pull designated driver duty for friends quite frequently, and that was often when it would happen.

It concerns me about the searches/guns because I work graveyard shift and go shooting right after work at 8am, so the previous night at 11pm I drove to work with a trunk full of guns/ammo.

mstlaurent
03-30-2007, 9:11 AM
I guess I kinda thought everyone knew this stuff already. Ok, here is Blackwater's Guide to getting stopped by the Law:

1. As soon as you see the blue lights hit your right blinker, reduce your speed (don't slam on the brakes please) and pull over as soon as it is safe to do so. Stop in an area that id safe for the officer/deputy/patrolperson ("him" from here on) to approach you vehicle. If possible, angle your vehicle slightly toward traffic (this will allow him to see you better, not really that important).

2. When you stop, do not get anything out of the glovebox, your wallet, ect, keep your hands on the steering wheel. If it is dark, turn on your interior light. Wait. (if he is taking a long time, he is probably just as annoyed as you are, the NCIC computers are horrible).

3. When he approaches your vehicle make sure your window is down. Move deliberately and calmly, no rapid nervous movements. If he asks you for paperwork or ID, let him know where it is, and ask if it is OK for you to reach and get it out. Do not make any excuses, argue, ect. You don't need to ask why you were stopped, he should inform you shortly and he may have been trained not to tell you right away.

3. If he asks any questions you are not comfortable answering, tell him as much, TONE goes a LONG way here, if you are frank and polite about it chances are he will be as well.

4. If you do all this and the guy still seems to be on some sort of fishing expedition, and is repeating questions at you, then being nice is not working. Ask if you are free to go. If yes, then go. If no, than ask for a supervisor. Continue asking until one arrives. Explain to the supervisor that you would like to know why you are being held and possibly arrested. Be POLITE, not confrontational. If they still won't let you go, well, you have that lawyer on speed dial right?

A lot of the stuff in 1 through 3 is stuff that, to me at least, is obvious (but we should never assume, right?). Angling the car and the computer issues are new, and good to know. I'm just a little more casual about the whole process, I guess. I mean, when the officer asks to see my license and registration I would think he would assume that my license is in my wallet and my registration is in the glovebox without me telling him, and that if I say, "Sure," and reach for my wallet that everything will be fine. Am I reading too much into that?

I guess I'm more interested in what happens after the LEO starts asking uncomfortable questions, because it seems like that is the most likely point for things to start escalating. Is it reasonable that if the officer asks if I have firearms in the vehicle and I say, "Yes," that I should be removed from my vehicle and cuffed? If I were breaking the law, or planning on breaking the law, why would I admit I have weapons in the car? I'm not trying to confront, I'm just trying to understand the logic.

eta34
03-30-2007, 9:34 AM
I'm curteous and respectful to all citizens until given a reason not to be. Please extend the same courtesy to me. Exercising your rights in a respectful tone is not something that will get me upset in any way.

Dont Tread on Me
03-30-2007, 9:42 AM
"Do you have any guns in the car?"
"No, sir."
"Where are you coming from?"
"The rifle range..."

LEO Do you have guns in the car?
Me: no comment
LEO: where are you comming from?
Me: no comment

I've not shown any disrespect and I've not opened a crack for the LEO to drive a wedge into. Don't lie. Just don't talk. LEOs think several questions ahead and will quickly expose a lie or detect that you are thinking too hard about your answers. This is their job and I'm honestly glad that they are good at it.

Please watch the ACLU video!

SkyStorm82
03-30-2007, 9:56 AM
LEO Do you have guns in the car?
Me: no comment
LEO: where are you comming from?
Me: no comment

I've not shown any disrespect and I've not opened a crack for the LEO to drive a wedge into. Don't lie. Just don't talk. LEOs think several questions ahead and will quickly expose a lie or detect that you are thinking too hard about your answers. This is their job and I'm honestly glad that they are good at it.

Please watch the ACLU video!


Yeah....that doesn't make it sound like you've been up to no good and possibly hiding something.

Why don't you ask the ACLU about the 2nd amendment...they've seem to have forgetton about that one.

Dont Tread on Me
03-30-2007, 10:04 AM
Yeah....that doesn't make it sound like you've been up to no good and possibly hiding something.


Ok, but where can the cop take it? You've not given him PC. If he searches what is he going to write down as the PC? Ok, he can lie but that is risky for a LEO. Get caught in a lie once and your credibility in future and past cases is in questioned.

Why don't you ask the ACLU about the 2nd amendment...they've seem to have forgetton about that one.

The ACLU gives good advice on handling police interactions. Their support/lack of support for the 2nd amendment has nothing to do with the validity of that advice.

FreedomIsNotFree
03-30-2007, 10:18 AM
Ok, but where can the cop take it? You've not given him PC. If he searches what is he going to write down as the PC? Ok, he can lie but that is risky for a LEO. Get caught in a lie once and your credibility in future and past cases is in questioned.



The ACLU gives good advice on handling police interactions. Their support/lack of support for the 2nd amendment has nothing to do with the validity of that advice.

Oh but it does...it shows an obvious lack of credibility....to ignore the 2nd Amendment when you claim to be an organization that defends the Constitution and our Liberty's shows a lack of integrity.

The ACLU supports selective portions of the Constitution that further their goals of communism. Dont believe me.....just ask Roger Baldwin, one of the co-founders of the ACLU who wrote......

"I am for Socialism, disarmament and ultimately, for the abolishing of the State itself ... I seek the social ownership of property, the abolition of the propertied class and sole control of those who produce wealth. Communism is the goal."

SkyStorm82
03-30-2007, 10:31 AM
Oh but it does...it shows an obvious lack of credibility....to ignore the 2nd Amendment when you claim to be an organization that defends the Constitution and our Liberty's shows a lack of integrity.

The ACLU supports selective portions of the Constitution that further their goals of communism. Dont believe me.....just ask Roger Baldwin, one of the co-founders of the ACLU who wrote......

"I am for Socialism, disarmament and ultimately, for the abolishing of the State itself ... I seek the social ownership of property, the abolition of the propertied class and sole control of those who produce wealth. Communism is the goal."


Thank you....you get it. The ACLU can go hell.

Astig Boy
03-30-2007, 12:03 PM
I really like the comment, "Theres nothing illegal in this car." I will use that. And if he asks if I have guns, I will lie. If he believes me, I will be on way. As mentioned earlier, it is not illegal to lie. If he searches and sees that I was lying, I can be truthful afterwards and state "just to avoid all this hassle". They can do all the investigating they want...I still have not done anything illegal or have anything illegal...I will be on my way sooner or later just the same. Being straight forward about having guns in the car will get your car searched and get your guns checked out just the same anyways. Being silent shows uncooperation and you have something to hide...they will ask more questions and possibly turn the nice respectable cop in to dirty harry robocop. Even if they dont search your car, it still is a hassle to deal with a cop who doesnt get answers. And what if they do find the guns while properly locked, you can still remain silent all you want...just know they are not going to let you go until you give a well enough explanation...remain silent all you want, it is your right, but you will get taken in and you will be calling your lawyer...all for what, to waste your time, tax payers time and money, your lawyers time, only to be let off for doing something legal all because you didnt want to talk to a cop? Sure, cops have no right to your personal business... but if you look at the other side, they do feel it is a public safety issue when they come across a car with a weapon in it and a person driving gives no reason or says nothing about where they are heading with it.



Maybe some of us are just harassment magnets.

If you have never had the pleasure of being pulled over and accused of engaging in illegal activities, count your lucky stars.

Multiple times I have been pulled over for no reason, ordered out of the car and onto the curb, asked dozens of questions, consented to a quick vehicle search (nothing in it) just to speed up the process, and let go without any tickets or warnings. It seems that after 10pm, some cops like to go on fishing expeditions. I do fear what would occur if this happened when I had a trunk full of guns going to the range.

FWIW: I am a clean cut white guy in my 30's, no tats, short hair, freshly shaved, shirt tucked in, respectfull "yes sir" "no sir" kind of guy, and I drive a Buick. I don't think I am begging for harassment, but I get it anyhow.

And Im with you on this. Some of you are really lucky. Ive been pulled over several times and have been asked, "you got any guns, knives, BOMBS in the car??"

I had two really bad pull overs. Two cops had their guns drawn on me while approaching my car for speeding on the freeway. They drew their guns all because I had my tinted windows up and they couldnt see me. I didnt make a fuse about it and they told me their reasoning, and they were actually good respectable cops afterwards...how ever they still gave me a speeding ticket and a fix it ticket. I actually shut my car off, roll down my windows, and turn on the dome light now because of this. Ever been pulled over for gang activity? Now that is no walk in the park. "Put your hands on the roof, put your hands out the car!" Nothing like having an entire unit surrounding you. Feels good having 6-8 cops with their guns pointing at you knowing your life can end in a split second if you make some type of funny move. Even walking slowly out the car with my hands up..Ive been wrestled to the ground by 3 cops, arm twisted every which way, with a knee on my back, and another knee on my neck. These cops told us our car matched the description of a car that just pulled off a drive by.

Just the other month I was riding passenger to AZ. My friend(a 90lbs petite girl) was pulled over for going 45 in a 35. First thing the cop asked, "you have any guns in the car?" I actually forgot to tell her about the handgun I had locked in the trunk, so that made me laugh and I just kept my mouth shut. But nothing more was said and she got a ticket. I thought it was odd he asked that from a conservative looking girl in sweats and a sweat shirt. I dont think it had anything to do with me either, being the cop couldnt see my face and I couldnt see his face. I hate getting pulled over.

Dont Tread on Me
03-30-2007, 1:57 PM
Oh but it does...it shows an obvious lack of credibility....to ignore the 2nd Amendment when you claim to be an organization that defends the Constitution and our Liberty's shows a lack of integrity."

I'm not a fan of the ACLU at all. I do like the material they put on knowing your rights with police encounters. I don't contribute a penny to them but I make use of their material. I call this having my cake and eating it:-)

FreedomIsNotFree
03-30-2007, 2:20 PM
I'm not a fan of the ACLU at all. I do like the material they put on knowing your rights with police encounters. I don't contribute a penny to them but I make use of their material. I call this having my cake and eating it:-)

I understand where you are coming from and was in no way trying to call you out as an ACLU fan-boy. My point is just that they cant be trusted.

triggerhappy
03-30-2007, 3:09 PM
I'm curteous and respectful to all citizens until given a reason not to be. Please extend the same courtesy to me. Exercising your rights in a respectful tone is not something that will get me upset in any way.

Ok, what needs to happen, is you need to get reported about in the news. All we ever hear about are the rogues and b*****ds that do nothing but collect their ill-gotten paycheck, and abuse those whose taxes pay those checks.

For what it's worth (since I started the whole Calguns cop-bash here), I truly wish that you were typical of Peace Officers. You and all the ones like you, I support and appreciate what you do for others.

For the CHiP in this case, or other wanna-be human with a badge, that makes a guy sit on the side of the road (in 'cuffs) while he searches said guys' car, well, hope you never need my assistance...

triggerhappy
03-30-2007, 3:12 PM
I'm curteous and respectful to all citizens until given a reason not to be. Please extend the same courtesy to me. Exercising your rights in a respectful tone is not something that will get me upset in any way.

By the way, if you ever pull me over (for going too slow, seriously) just introduce yourself as eta34 from Calguns. I'll buy you a coffee while you write up the ticket :)

Have a good day, and thanks for your efforts.

KDOFisch
03-30-2007, 3:46 PM
By the way, if you ever pull me over (for going too slow, seriously) just introduce yourself as eta34 from Calguns. I'll buy you a coffee while you write up the ticket :)

Have a good day, and thanks for your efforts.

Amen. I'm a mild-mannered guy who lives in Weho. I've been pulled over in CA three times and issued a moving violation once (I don't count the BS girdlock ticket I got on Sunset Blvd once cuz it's no points). Each time has been a pretty simple in/out, just-the-facts Ma'am experience. BUT I was once asked by an LASD deputy if I had anything 'illegal he should know about' in the vehicle (I didn't).

Maybe I'm still waiting on some bad experience to make me think otherwise, but it seems that every few months this question comes up and people are one way or the other about it. I have a close friend who's LASD and he says that even though his instinct can't be PC, it can definitely change the way he acts around someone. The ACLU vid is great because it's respectful and stays within the 'nice average citizen' realm. But it doesn't encourage the silent treatment, which I've seen several times in the postings here. I feel like the silent treatment can really get someone in trouble a lot more than exercising your 3rd,4th, & 5th Amndt rights. I know my rights, but I'm not going to act skiddish to defend them, or mute.

MedSpec65
03-30-2007, 6:33 PM
In case you did not notice, I am an LEO myself, and I disagree, at least as far as not haveing the US vs. THEM mindset. I would really like to know what dept. you work for, only because I want to visit this utopia myself, go for a ride along, and maybe even put in an application. I am guessing it's a very small dept., but you tell me. PM me if you don't want to post it.Thanks for straightening me out about NCIC info appearing on LEO monitors on routine traffic stops. I think the information you and eta34 provided can be trusted and I'm frankly inspired by era34's "live and let live" attitude about law-abiding gunowners in California. I just wish more local Chiefs and County Sheriffs shared his opinion. Many years ago I was transporting an empty Hi-Standard 12 ga pump late at night in San Francisco and it was summarily confiscated by two officers who noticed it under the seat on a traffic stop. I was not cited for anything but was given the "We'll look into it" response when I called Mission Station the next Monday AM about getting my gun back. I think that experience has caused me to lean towards hysteria and distrust and I've had a tendency to believe negative stories about California LEO's since then. Knowing ALMOST ANYBODY will call the police when they get in a situation over their head, I think it is irrational to harbor a general distrust of law enforcement and I'd just as soon let it go. Thanks.

MedSpec65
03-30-2007, 6:52 PM
Thank you....you get it. The ACLU can go hell.I second that emotion about the ACLU. I've seen the video. It's all about beating a felony possession charge in court by tricking the LEO into making a shaky arrest. The ACLU doesn't care about your "rights" They care about de-stabilizing this Nation by undermining the criminal justice system. By the way I was 1Bn, 2nd Brigade 502 PIR 101 ABN "Strike Force" at Ft. Campbell in 1960 when I was 18 years old. I went on to Ft. Sam Houston, became a Medic and did 2 tours with MAAG and MACV. Made it out alive in '65. I was actually issued a WWII model M1 Carbine with the wire stock during Airborne School. I've been looking around for one lately...might get one of those from the Civilian Marksmenship Program. Happy Trails Sky Soldier. Geronimo!

Bad Voodoo
03-31-2007, 11:33 AM
I'm not a fan of the ACLU at all. I do like the material they put on knowing your rights with police encounters. I don't contribute a penny to them but I make use of their material. I call this having my cake and eating it:-)

Hmmm, ACLU supports the disarmament of ordinary citizens in this country yet supplies public "tips and tricks" to defeat LEO contact tactics. Who's side do you think they're really on here, ca_brit??

I second MedSpec's view that "the ACLU doesn't care about your "rights." They care about de-stabilizing this Nation by undermining the criminal justice system." He's about right on the money.

-voodoo

Dont Tread on Me
03-31-2007, 12:17 PM
Hmmm, ACLU supports the disarmament of ordinary citizens in this country yet supplies public "tips and tricks" to defeat LEO contact tactics. Who's side do you think they're really on here, ca_brit??


If you watch the video they are all about letting people smoke pot in their homes and drive around with the stuff in the car. Not something I support but I'll use the same tips and tricks to keep the cops out of my home and car so they don't take my perfectly legal guns in just to be on the safe side....

berto
03-31-2007, 12:37 PM
I second that emotion about the ACLU. I've seen the video. It's all about beating a felony possession charge in court by tricking the LEO into making a shaky arrest.

There shouldn't be any need to trick a LEO into making a shaky arrest if the LEO actually follows the law instead of trying to trick a suspect into giving up constitutional rights.

Dr. Peter Venkman
03-31-2007, 1:50 PM
In CA, neither a 10-28 (DMV Registration check of a vehicle) or a 10-27 (DMV records check of driving status) will show a listing for any AWs. In my experience, the only way to check the registration info on a firearm is to run the serial number through CLETS (10-29 since you're big into codes). If it is a long gun, it will not show a registered owner. However, an AW will show a hit for an R/O and an address.


Yeah I know. But it is routine to always run clearance (1027 and 1029) on the guy after you get his driver's license. So any registered AW is going to pop up.

Matt C
03-31-2007, 2:12 PM
Yeah I know. But it is routine to always run clearance (1027 and 1029) on the guy after you get his driver's license. So any registered AW is going to pop up.

Routine for which agency?:confused:

rorschach
03-31-2007, 3:00 PM
Yeah I know. But it is routine to always run clearance (1027 and 1029) on the guy after you get his driver's license. So any registered AW is going to pop up.

Huh???:confused:

Dr. Peter Venkman
03-31-2007, 3:09 PM
Routine for which agency?:confused:

You mean to tell me you guys don't run clearance on everyone? :confused:

Matt C
03-31-2007, 3:20 PM
You mean to tell me you guys don't run clearance on everyone? :confused:

First off, we don't use 10 codes anymore, in fact I've never used them, so you lost me there. Also, I have never run anything more than a wants/warrants check on someone unless they were being arrested.

hitnrun
03-31-2007, 3:54 PM
Yeah I know. But it is routine to always run clearance (1027 and 1029) on the guy after you get his driver's license. So any registered AW is going to pop up.

Wrong...and you don't know. It's people like you who are GUILTY of spreading so much of the misinformation about law enforcement. You should know better and check your facts, especially if you're an explorer. :rolleyes:

We run people at our discretion during a traffic stop. If it is someone I know from a previous stop, or someone who forgot to turn there lights on and are driving with just there parking lights, I just pull them over to tell them and once I make sure than everything is ok, they're gone. 45 seconds...TOPS. Others, I run, it depends.

As for the AW, if you go back and read carefully, 10-27 is ONLY a DMV check for driving status and the 10-29 is a wants/warrants check for the person with whose 10-27 I just ran. Nothing regarding AW ownership/registration will come up. Even if it did, it couldn't be transmitted over the air anyways.

If I want to check for a stolen gun/property/wanted items/etc. I would say, over the air, "10-29 on a firearm." Or, "10-29 on a Sony CD player." Or, "10-29 all systems," for a complete NCIC rundown of a person including DVROS, Parole, probation, warrants, in state and out of state. If I wanted to check on an AW to see if it was stolen I would say, "10-29 on an UZI." Then I would read off the serial numbers. Dispatch would check the serial numbers against a list in a database of hot guns, and either I either get a match or I don't. If the guy says it his, then I would call dispatch and have them check the AW reg. database and confirm that Joe Blow is the legal owner and that the firearm is being transported legally. After that, he'd be free to go. If he says that it's his "buddy's," I would still check the gun to confirm it wasn't registered to Joe Blow, and then book the firearm until the R/O could pick it up. It's actually quite simple.

eta34
03-31-2007, 5:11 PM
I second what hitnrun just said. AW information is not readily available to us. We don't run a wants/warrants check on someone and magically obtain AW info. It doesn't happen in my agency or any other for that matter. Please stop spreading misinformation.

Matt C
03-31-2007, 5:16 PM
I second what hitnrun just said. AW information is not readily available to us. We don't run a wants/warrants check on someone and magically obtain AW info. It doesn't happen in my agency or any other for that matter. Please stop spreading misinformation.

I'm going to have to agree. Not only would it be an absurd policy to run that info everytime, I think it would actually break a number of laws relating to putting AW info over the air, and accessing that kind of personal information without any cause (routine).

Dr. Peter Venkman
03-31-2007, 5:49 PM
First off, we don't use 10 codes anymore, in fact I've never used them, so you lost me there. Also, I have never run anything more than a wants/warrants check on someone unless they were being arrested.

It might be standardized in Santa Clara County and MHPD uses them everyday. MHPD always runs clearance on someone whenever ID is taken prior to filling out a ticket as well. That policy might be just for the department or SCC wide. I'll ask.


Wrong...and you don't know. It's people like you who are GUILTY of spreading so much of the misinformation about law enforcement. You should know better and check your facts, especially if you're an explorer.


Guilty of spreading misinformation? None of it is made up from my end. An officer can run your DL information on the computer in his squad car and pop up the AFS, DMV Records, et cetera right onto the monitor, or by running the plate and finding the registered owner and running the RO's information. This same thing can be done over the radio (checking stolen property, etc.) as you state later.

We run people at our discretion during a traffic stop. If it is someone I know from a previous stop, or someone who forgot to turn there lights on and are driving with just there parking lights, I just pull them over to tell them and once I make sure than everything is ok, they're gone. 45 seconds...TOPS. Others, I run, it depends.

Of course officers have their own discrection when pulling people over. I have never said otherwise. MHPD always will run clearance after the officer has decided to issue some sort of citation. As I have said before, I do not know if that is just for this particular department or county wide. I assumed it was county because all of the codes are standardized as well and I incorrectly assumed this was the same for the entire state.

As for the AW, if you go back and read carefully, 10-27 is ONLY a DMV check for driving status and the 10-29 is a wants/warrants check for the person with whose 10-27 I just ran. Nothing regarding AW ownership/registration will come up. Even if it did, it couldn't be transmitted over the air anyways.

No, it will not be transmitted over the air. I don't believe I ever said it would be. If I did however, I recant that statement. AW registration will come up on the computer if the officer decides to run your name and D.O.B. at his discretion via the AFS. The majority of the squad cars for the MHPD have this computer in place. The cars that do not are slowly being phased out.

If I want to check for a stolen gun/property/wanted items/etc. I would say, over the air, "10-29 on a firearm." Or, "10-29 on a Sony CD player." Or, "10-29 all systems," for a complete NCIC rundown of a person including DVROS, Parole, probation, warrants, in state and out of state. If I wanted to check on an AW to see if it was stolen I would say, "10-29 on an UZI." Then I would read off the serial numbers. Dispatch would check the serial numbers against a list in a database of hot guns, and either I either get a match or I don't. If the guy says it his, then I would call dispatch and have them check the AW reg. database and confirm that Joe Blow is the legal owner and that the firearm is being transported legally. After that, he'd be free to go. If he says that it's his "buddy's," I would still check the gun to confirm it wasn't registered to Joe Blow, and then book the firearm until the R/O could pick it up. It's actually quite simple.

Yes it is simple. But what I am saying is that an officer can run anyone's name in the computer and AFS will show any AW that has been registered. An officer can pull up your records like I have stated above by typing in your name and D.O.B .

I am not "trying" to spread misinformation about law enforcement and I apologize if I have, but I believe I have not. All that I can tell you is that if an MHPD LEO as a computer in his squad car and he runs your information via the computer, he will know every single firearm you have registered because of the AFS. As I said earlier, I incorrectly assumed this was the same for the entire state.

Matt C
03-31-2007, 5:53 PM
It might be standardized in Santa Clara County and MHPD uses them everyday.

I did not mean to say no LE agencies use 10 codes anymore, I know many still do despite Federal "suggestions" to stop. My agency is federal, thus no 10 codes.

eta34
03-31-2007, 6:33 PM
Again, I can't speak for MHPD, but I highly doubt AFS just pops up when you run someone. I have never seen that. We are certainly able to run an individual to find out if any firearms are registered to him/her, but that is not a routine procedure.

Matt C
03-31-2007, 6:40 PM
Again, I can't speak for MHPD, but I highly doubt AFS just pops up when you run someone. I have never seen that. We are certainly able to run an individual to find out if any firearms are registered to him/her, but that is not a routine procedure.

Nor could it be, it my understanding.

Dr. Peter Venkman
03-31-2007, 6:49 PM
AFS pops up whenever an officer types in information to run someone from their own squad car. I see it all the time.

Matt C
03-31-2007, 7:00 PM
AFS pops up whenever an officer types in information to run someone from their own squad car. I see it all the time.

That's actually pretty disturbing to me. The system is only supposed to exist to track lost/stolen firearms and to link them to a person when an investigation is being conducted in connection to a firearm related crime. It really bothers me that when I get pulled over by the local yokel PD for an equipment violation they know I am a gun nut. Considering CFIS data is copied to AFS everytime I buy a gun, it probably looks like I own 30+ guns...

Still don't think someone is going to ask "Any firearms in the vehicle sir?"...

Dr. Peter Venkman
03-31-2007, 7:39 PM
Still don't think someone is going to ask "Any firearms in the vehicle sir?"...

Yeah, I don't see that really ever happening on a common basis. But the thread was started on what LE knows about your firearms and I said what I knew...

Matt C
03-31-2007, 7:59 PM
Hell, if I stopped somebody and a computer just told me they owned 30+ firearms, I would ask. It would be hard to ignore that fact. Besides, I would want to see the toys..

anotherone
03-31-2007, 9:54 PM
There has only been one time a law enforcement officer ever asked me a question like this.

My answer: "I cannot give you an answer until I speak with my attorney".

DO NOT speak with law enforcement officers without first speaking to an attorney. If an officer ever asks you a question give him your attorney's name and number. Law Enforcement cannot force you to answer any questions and any that you do answer can be used against you.

In this particular scenario though I can hardly see why you wouldn't just let him take a look at your lawfully possessed rifle and registration though.

Matt C
03-31-2007, 9:55 PM
Mainly because I don't want some rookie's pistol pointed at my head.