PDA

View Full Version : Do I have this right?


DeanC
02-10-2012, 8:14 AM
Dear Calguns collective wisdom,
I'm a new shooter and gun owner and hoping you all can verify my understanding of the law wrt. loaning my Browning Buckmark to my wife.

Here's the background:
Me: HSC & first handgun purchase last month. New shooter, enjoying the heck out of it.
Wife: No HSC. Has come to range with me a few times, enjoys shooting the Buckmark, but really enjoyed shooting that one that "made the BIG boom" (rental P226 in .40, and yes, she's a keeper...) :-).

She wants to be able to borrow the Buckmark to go hit the range on her own when I'm at work and the kids are in school. My reading of the CPC and the various Wikis, FAQ's, etc seems to say that it's okay for her to use my gun without a HSC as long as I'm physically present but she needs to get a HSC if she wants to take it from the house to the range on her own. Is my understanding correct?

The folks at the LGS/Range swear up and down that she doesn't need the HSC, but I've read enough Calguns to know not to listen to LGS employees for that kind of stuff. They're very nice and helpful but they've also told me that if I mounted a GunVault MicroVault to the floor of the trunk, it would become another "glove box" and be illegal to carry a handgun in...

Thanks,
Dean

Blood Ocean
02-10-2012, 8:18 AM
From http://oag.ca.gov/firearms/hscfaqs#a2

Do I have to carry my Handgun Safety Certificate (HSC) with me whenever I possess or transport my handgun?
No. Mere possession/ownership of a personally-owned handgun does not require a Handgun Safety Certificate (HSC). However, you do have to present your HSC to the firearms dealer at the time you begin a transaction to purchase/acquire a handgun.

CaliB&R
02-10-2012, 8:20 AM
Yes, to receive the Buckmark (even when borrowing), your wife needs the HSC.

As for the MicroVault, no one is 100% sure the courts won't see it as another utility compartment of the vehicle.

ETA: #13 and 15 apply from the posted FAQs

davbog44
02-10-2012, 8:27 AM
She should not need to acquire her own HSC unless she intends to purchase her own handgun, and IIRC a handgun can be "loaned" to a spouse (or parent or adult child) for lawful purpose like going to the range, without need for any further documentation.

There are folks here who can quote the relevant statutes chapter and verse, and hopefully someone who fits that description will be along shortly.

But in addition to my own firearms, I have taken and shot several of my father's handguns at the range and never been asked to produce anything other than my Range ID card and CDL. I have never been asked to produce an HSC at any range unless purchasing a handgun.

a1c
02-10-2012, 9:26 AM
She should not need to acquire her own HSC unless she intends to purchase her own handgun, and IIRC a handgun can be "loaned" to a spouse (or parent or adult child) for lawful purpose like going to the range, without need for any further documentation.

There are folks here who can quote the relevant statutes chapter and verse, and hopefully someone who fits that description will be along shortly.

But in addition to my own firearms, I have taken and shot several of my father's handguns at the range and never been asked to produce anything other than my Range ID card and CDL. I have never been asked to produce an HSC at any range unless purchasing a handgun.

Some ranges will require the HSC.

But ironically, they will also lease guns and sell ammo to non-immigrants who don't have a hunter's license.

Then again, I don't blame them for ignoring or circumventing the meanders of this country's inadequate immigration laws.

CHS
02-10-2012, 9:35 AM
Since the Buckmark is dual-property now, I don't see why your wife would need an HSC. It's already half hers.

Now, if it was a girlfriend, technically by the law she would need an HSC before you could loan her a gun.

sholling
02-10-2012, 9:35 AM
Dear Calguns collective wisdom,
I'm a new shooter and gun owner and hoping you all can verify my understanding of the law wrt. loaning my Browning Buckmark to my wife.

Here's the background:
Me: HSC & first handgun purchase last month. New shooter, enjoying the heck out of it.
Wife: No HSC. Has come to range with me a few times, enjoys shooting the Buckmark, but really enjoyed shooting that one that "made the BIG boom" (rental P226 in .40, and yes, she's a keeper...) :-).

She wants to be able to borrow the Buckmark to go hit the range on her own when I'm at work and the kids are in school. My reading of the CPC and the various Wikis, FAQ's, etc seems to say that it's okay for her to use my gun without a HSC as long as I'm physically present but she needs to get a HSC if she wants to take it from the house to the range on her own. Is my understanding correct?

The folks at the LGS/Range swear up and down that she doesn't need the HSC, but I've read enough Calguns to know not to listen to LGS employees for that kind of stuff. They're very nice and helpful but they've also told me that if I mounted a GunVault MicroVault to the floor of the trunk, it would become another "glove box" and be illegal to carry a handgun in...

Thanks,
Dean

I'll let the experts answer the HSC question but the micro vault is unnecessary and it is generally agreed that you cannot permanently attach a gun vault to the passenger compartment of a car. The easiest solution is a gun rug ($10) designed for use with a padlock, or a small range bag with a compartment that can be secured. If you want it secured to the car you can use a Gunvault NanoVault ($25-35) which is secured to the car via a cable.

wazdat
02-10-2012, 9:41 AM
They're very nice and helpful but they've also told me that if I mounted a GunVault MicroVault to the floor of the trunk, it would become another "glove box" and be illegal to carry a handgun in...


Horsefeathers. The trunk counts as a "locked container". You could toss the handgun unloaded on a beach towel in the trunk and be in compliance with the law.

Now mounted in the passenger compartment might be another thing. IANAL and will defer to those that know the law.

Librarian
02-10-2012, 10:59 AM
I'll let the experts answer the HSC question but the micro vault is unnecessary and it is generally agreed that you cannot permanently attach a gun vault to the passenger compartment of a car. The easiest solution is a gun rug ($10) designed for use with a padlock, or a small range bag with a compartment that can be secured. If you want it secured to the car you can use a Gunvault NanoVault ($25-35) which is secured to the car via a cable.

I'll dispute the bolded part. We don't know either way whether attaching is a problem.

Letter of the law: must have an HSC to receive a loan: 31615. (a) No person shall do either of the following:
(1) Purchase or receive any handgun, except an antique firearm,
without a valid handgun safety certificate.
(2) Sell, deliver, loan, or transfer any handgun, except an
antique firearm, to any person who does not have a valid handgun
safety certificate.

Whether that provision applies in the case of presumptively community property is open. My opinion: no.

ETA: 31610. It is the intent of the Legislature in enacting this article
to require that persons who obtain handguns have a basic familiarity
with those firearms, including, but not limited to, the safe
handling and storage of those firearms. It is not the intent of the
Legislature to require a handgun safety certificate for the mere
possession of a firearm.
Places/LEO/whatever asking for an HSC outside the requirements of 31615 are doing so wrongly.

Peter W Bush
02-10-2012, 11:22 AM
I've realized that the only places that care about HSCs are gun stores. No police officer has EVER asked me for my HSC. The officers I know don't even know what it is lol

Kalderis40
02-10-2012, 1:32 PM
So as far as the HSC goes, does that mean that I go to the range with my fiance with my own firearm (handgun) and I have an HSC, she can shoot my hangun as long as i'm with her or does she need an HSC as well?

CaliB&R
02-10-2012, 2:23 PM
Kalderis40, if your present then shes ok, for up to a 3 days loan.

Kalderis40
02-10-2012, 2:26 PM
Kalderis40, if your present then shes ok, for up to a 3 days loan.

Thanks! I thought she wouldn't need one.

CHS
02-10-2012, 2:45 PM
Kalderis40, if your present then shes ok, for up to a 3 days loan.

If he's present, it's not a loan.

If he's not present, then he can loan for up to 30 days, but she would need to have an HSC.

Again though, we're talking about a married couple which means community property. You don't need an HSC for handguns that are already your property. So in this case no HSC should be needed anyways because she's not actually borrowing the gun; She's taking a gun that's already partly hers out to the range.

Kalderis40
02-10-2012, 2:53 PM
Thanks for the clarification, CHS.

DeanC
02-12-2012, 8:24 AM
Thanks for all the responses guys. When I read the PC I didn't see a carve out for married couples, so I assumed she'd need the HSC for a loan with me not present. I guess I hadn't considered the community property angle.

Thanks again!

bigcalidave
02-12-2012, 8:29 AM
Yeah, being the wife overrules everything else right?


Question then, to stray OT... Could your wife borrow and legally transport a RAW registered in your name?

RP1911
02-12-2012, 8:42 AM
^^no. She needs to be a registered co-owner. Unless, you passed away and she is the Executor.

JTecalo
02-12-2012, 10:40 AM
any reason she can't take the HSC test and solve the issue once and for all?

no flame....just curious

Andy Taylor
02-12-2012, 3:40 PM
First I am not a lawyer and the following should not be considered legal advice.
HSC applies only to purchasing and borrowing the firearm. When your HSC expires, you do not need to get a new one in order to continue to own/use the firearms you already own.
The Buckmark, is your wife's gun, through community property laws. She does not need an HSC to use her own property.

Librarian
02-12-2012, 4:28 PM
First I am not a lawyer and the following should not be considered legal advice.
HSC applies only to purchasing and borrowing the firearm. When your HSC expires, you do not need to get a new one in order to continue to own/use the firearms you already own.
The Buckmark, is your wife's gun, through community property laws. She does not need an HSC to use her own property.

What is or is not community property is usually outside the scope of Calguns; sometimes it's simple to determine, sometimes not.

DeanC
02-12-2012, 4:43 PM
any reason she can't take the HSC test and solve the issue once and for all?

no flame....just curious

Nope, and she probably will soon, if her reaction to the rental 9mm P229 last night was any indication... :-)

CHS
02-12-2012, 6:02 PM
any reason she can't take the HSC test and solve the issue once and for all?

No reason to waste $25 if you don't need to.

taperxz
02-12-2012, 6:15 PM
I'll dispute the bolded part. We don't know either way whether attaching is a problem.

Letter of the law: must have an HSC to receive a loan:

Whether that provision applies in the case of presumptively community property is open. My opinion: no.

ETA: Places/LEO/whatever asking for an HSC outside the requirements of 31615 are doing so wrongly.

But yet during a divorce their assets can be split evenly. (so to speak)

Not to mention and unregistered handgun and community property????

I would think community property would circumvent the situation BUT IANAL

edit: i could have read the whole thread

taperxz
02-12-2012, 6:19 PM
Yeah, being the wife overrules everything else right?


Question then, to stray OT... Could your wife borrow and legally transport a RAW registered in your name?

Obviously not however that law is very specific. Handguns and registration/not registered, not so much.

cmichini
02-13-2012, 5:31 AM
Horsefeathers. The trunk counts as a "locked container". You could toss the handgun unloaded on a beach towel in the trunk and be in compliance with the law.

Now mounted in the passenger compartment might be another thing. IANAL and will defer to those that know the law.

Careful, if you can fold the back seat down, the trunk may no longer be a locked container.
Have her get the hsc anyway.That way she can buy you Guns!!