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View Full Version : DOJ going after Single Shot exemptions and Rebuild Kits?


Bobby Hated
02-09-2012, 1:03 PM
just got back from PPT my railgun to a fellow calgunner, and the guys at the gun store we did PPT at were saying how the DOJ inspector just spent 3 days there, when they usually spend one day.

they said the DOJ was making a special effort to go after Single Shot exemptions and Rebuild Kits. DOJ wanted all paperwork on single shot exemptions so they could follow up with gun owneres to make sure they had not been converted back.

and they were also going after dealers for selling rebuild kits. DOJ apparently has decided by fiat that these are mags if all the parts for a mag are sold together.

anyone know anything about this or can comment from an INFORMED perspective?

thanks

Bobula
02-09-2012, 1:13 PM
Nothing in law against either. Attempted underground regulation.

tenpercentfirearms
02-09-2012, 1:13 PM
just got back from PPT my railgun to a fellow calgunner, and the guys at the gun store we did PPT at were saying how the DOJ inspector just spent 3 days there, when they usually spend one day.

they said the DOJ was making a special effort to go after Single Shot exemptions and Rebuild Kits. DOJ wanted all paperwork on single shot exemptions so they could follow up with gun owneres to make sure they had not been converted back.

and they were also going after dealers for selling rebuild kits. DOJ apparently has decided by fiat that these are mags if all the parts for a mag are sold together.

anyone know anything about this or can comment from an INFORMED perspective?

thanks
Who is the dealer so we can contact them.

There is nothing the DOJ can do to you once you take possession of your handgun as long as you do not create an assault weapon.

Furhter, there is plenty of documentation that rebuild kits are legal, so the DOJ would probably want to sent a reverssed opinion of their already written explination that rebuild kits are legal.

At this time someone is spreading FUD. It is either the dealer or the DOJ and it needs to be addressed. Please let us know who it is so we can contact them.

AJAX22
02-09-2012, 2:53 PM
haha

yeah.... love to get more info on who that dealer was

Sounds like a bit of fud

halifax
02-09-2012, 2:58 PM
If the DOJ "has decided by fiat that these are mags if all the parts for a mag are sold together", then the dealer broke the law and needs to be cited or arrested. Did that happen?

alfred1222
02-09-2012, 3:06 PM
If the DOJ "has decided by fiat that these are mags if all the parts for a mag are sold together", then the dealer broke the law and needs to be cited or arrested. Did that happen?

Why would the dealer be cited or arrested?! if someone puts all of the parts of a 30rnd mag into a bag, and slaps a price tag on it saying that the parts are meant to rebuild pre-ban mags, he is legally selling parts.

rromeo
02-09-2012, 3:28 PM
Reread the post you quoted.

halifax
02-09-2012, 3:30 PM
Why would the dealer be cited or arrested?! if someone puts all of the parts of a 30rnd mag into a bag, and slaps a price tag on it saying that the parts are meant to rebuild pre-ban mags, he is legally selling parts.


If the DOJ "has decided by fiat that these are mags if all the parts for a mag are sold together", then the dealer broke the law and needs to be cited or arrested. Did that happen?

Well, if the DOJ decided they were magazines like the OP posted, then it follows that the dealer sold large capacity magazines to non-exempt people, doesn't it?

kemasa
02-09-2012, 3:45 PM
Well, if the DOJ decided they were magazines like the OP posted, then it follows that the dealer sold large capacity magazines to non-exempt people, doesn't it?

Only if that is actually illegal (read the actual law).

EBR Works
02-09-2012, 3:47 PM
Well, if the DOJ decided they were magazines like the OP posted, then it follows that the dealer sold large capacity magazines to non-exempt people, doesn't it?

So, you are saying that selling a bag of parts that would constitute a complete mag is not legal? Please elaborate how you came to this conclusion.

halifax
02-09-2012, 3:48 PM
:facepalm:

I am saying that if the DOJ is claiming that a bag of parts is indeed a complete magazine then they should have arrested the dealer or at least cited him. No?

They didn't which somewhat proves they are FOS.

freonr22
02-09-2012, 3:52 PM
Tag

EBR Works
02-09-2012, 3:58 PM
:facepalm:

I am saying that if the DOJ is claiming that a bag of parts is indeed a complete magazine then they should have arrested the dealer or at least cited him. No?

They didn't which somewhat proves they are FOS.

Got it. Sorry, I misunderstood.

halifax
02-09-2012, 3:58 PM
...

winnre
02-09-2012, 4:00 PM
Funny how a bag of magazine parts are just parts but a bag of machine gun parts is a machine gun. Pick a lane!

seainc
02-09-2012, 4:02 PM
OP you can PM name of the dealer to "tenpercentfirearms" if you don't want to share it with public. Thanks

Ubermcoupe
02-09-2012, 4:05 PM
Funny how a bag of magazine parts are just parts but a bag of machine gun parts is a machine gun. Pick a lane!

Well, Constructive possession is a federal thing, but I get what youíre saying.

Moving Chicane
02-09-2012, 4:13 PM
Waiting to see/hear which dealer this was; especially since it is in my area!

winnre
02-09-2012, 4:15 PM
Hey, they started it with the stupid roster. I say if the gun fails sue the manufacturer. Technically now you can also sue the state since they signed off on it being safe enough to sell in CA.

Oceanbob
02-09-2012, 5:54 PM
Total FUD...bet that employee worked at McDonalds last year.

gant
02-09-2012, 5:56 PM
total bs, once the gun is yours, you can do whatever you want with it as long as you dont make it a assault weapon

Bobby Hated
02-09-2012, 8:11 PM
wow i sure stirred up the hornets nest. this is NOT my opinion. i am just repeating what the store told me. two employees participated in the conversation and relayed this information to me. yes i realize gun store employees are common spreaders of FUD, which is why i was incredulous when they told me this. i diligently questioned them about what they were telling me, like a good calgunner. and came on here asap to post it for discussion, like a good calgunner.

so dont kill the messenger please.

as for posting the name of the shop, is that ethical for me to do? my reservation is by posting the shop name, DOJ can go back there and give them a hard time or who knows what.

i'm going to PM the shop name to tenpercentfirearms since i know he's involved in CGF.

Bobby Hated
02-09-2012, 8:15 PM
tenpercentfirearms! you do not have a send private message option on your handle. how do i send you a PM? please PM me so i can reply with the shop name.

seainc
02-09-2012, 8:28 PM
you can go to his website www.tenpercentfirearms.com and contact him from there. Thanks

tenpercentfirearms! you do not have a send private message option on your handle. how do i send you a PM? please PM me so i can reply with the shop name.

Mssr. Elegantť
02-09-2012, 10:05 PM
One year ago...
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=384265

Eight months ago...
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=445943

Five months ago...
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=480403

tenpercentfirearms
02-10-2012, 5:49 AM
tenpercentfirearms! you do not have a send private message option on your handle. how do i send you a PM? please PM me so i can reply with the shop name.

e-mail me. sales@taftguns.com

Why would the DOJ go back and give them a hard time? If anything if the DOJ have been giving them a hard time, they will stop once we empower them with knowledge. Do you think the DOJ comes to my shop and gives me a hard time about anything? They do not. They come and we do our business and everyone is polite and moves on. They know I am not going to buy any of this nonsense, so they don't even try.

PolishMike
02-10-2012, 6:22 AM
Let me guess - dealer doesn't do single shot transfers?

I would be willing to bet it is the dealer making this up to scare customers from buying guns at competition. I have heard the same from my customers who have been to a local store.

jeferd
02-10-2012, 7:11 AM
There's a brand new gun shop in my area..Folsom, near Sacramento..STS Guns...they are saying the same thing, that DOJ is going after SSE so they would never consider doing it. He was adamant that they are going after SSE, although I pointed out it is perfectly legal. The guy said it is the intent to circumvent the law that they are going after...I told him that the can not do anything if you DID NOT BREAK the law. anyway, same thing being spread up here as well. Maybe they are checking to make sure all documentation is correct, so it's spread that they are cracking down, etc...typical on how FUD is spread.

SOCAL INFIDEL
02-10-2012, 7:20 AM
If dealer is selling a California Compliant Product, it's none of his/her business or responsibility with what the purchaser is doing with their OWN property after it legally leaves their shop. And to chime in with what others have said, as long as you don't make it an AW or other "illegal" things, you can do whatever you want to it.

PolishMike
02-10-2012, 7:27 AM
I don't get why dealers who don't do sse transfers can't just say that they don't want to do them.

Why start spreading complete crap and trying to scare a customer into buying a gun from you?

CSACANNONEER
02-10-2012, 7:32 AM
:facepalm:

I am saying that if the DOJ is claiming that a bag of parts is indeed a complete magazine then they should have arrested the dealer or at least cited him. No?

They didn't which somewhat proves they are FOS.

Selling complete magazines is only a crime if you do not have a high cap permit. AFAIK, anyone can legally buy from a dealer with a high cap permit but, DOJ will revoke their permit if they do.

greasemonkey
02-10-2012, 7:56 AM
I don't get why dealers who don't do sse transfers can't just say that they don't want to do them.

Why start spreading complete crap and trying to scare a customer into buying a gun from you?

Because they *think* it makes them look better when they can say "those guys are gonna get arrested and you'll lose your guns and go to prison, if you don't want to be a criminal, buy from me." I know it doesn't make sense but that's what I've run into at a lot of the FFL's around here. Except all the shops around here are getting worried because they're losing so much business to PRK...who have been saying the above about them since PRK opened; and yet no charges, arrests or confiscations to date.

A fun story to tell people that talk about PRK's evil "gray area" is the last time they had a major audit, they had their "BOFfers are harassing us" sale and one guy from the team of once agitated agents out for legal blood ended up DROSing a personal firearm from them at the end of the audit.

I've been told RECENTLY by a couple local FFL's the same thing about field agents telling them they'd better not start doing SSE's because "they WANT to go after the FFL's who are doing them." But then there's the issue of want in one hand, crap in the other and see which one has substance.

curvejunkie
02-10-2012, 8:18 AM
I don't get why dealers who don't do sse transfers can't just say that they don't want to do them.

Why start spreading complete crap and trying to scare a customer into buying a gun from you?

This ^.

Absolutely nothing is gained from talking chit about your competition.

beetle
02-10-2012, 8:20 AM
I think its a case of the stores that don't do SSE making up stories about those that do. appears to be happening all over. I ran into a very similar situation in the SF Bay Area. Went to a store that I usually don't go to because it was closer to the buyer (was doing a PPT). During the course of the PPT buyer asked me how I got the gun, etc because he had been looking for one for awhile. I explained that I bought it via SSE at which point the store employee immediately branded me as a criminal, the gun as illegal, and that the buyer would go to jail. Needless to say the buyer got freaked out and cancelled the sale wasting my time and his.

keenkeen
02-10-2012, 8:26 AM
There's a brand new gun shop in my area..Folsom, near Sacramento..STS Guns...they are saying the same thing, that DOJ is going after SSE so they would never consider doing it. He was adamant that they are going after SSE, although I pointed out it is perfectly legal. The guy said it is the intent to circumvent the law that they are going after...I told him that the can not do anything if you DID NOT BREAK the law. anyway, same thing being spread up here as well. Maybe they are checking to make sure all documentation is correct, so it's spread that they are cracking down, etc...typical on how FUD is spread.

One of the newer shops in CenCal is saying the same thing when asked about doing SSE. Basicly this:

"The local DOJ rep told me that doing SSEs is 'risky' and that they are getting ready to 'go after' the main shop in the area that does them"

Beacuse of this, he is not doing SSE pistols.

Seems to be a standard tactic with the DOJ and new FFLs...

keenkeen
02-10-2012, 8:31 AM
:cool2:I think its a case of the stores that don't do SSE making up stories about those that do. appears to be happening all over. I ran into a very similar situation in the SF Bay Area. Went to a store that I usually don't go to because it was closer to the buyer (was doing a PPT). During the course of the PPT buyer asked me how I got the gun, etc because he had been looking for one for awhile. I explained that I bought it via SSE at which point the store employee immediately branded me as a criminal, the gun as illegal, and that the buyer would go to jail. Needless to say the buyer got freaked out and cancelled the sale wasting my time and his.

Oh man, that is the pits. I would have been ticked off at the FFL for sure. (ps you should name the store so we can avoid them)

I guess the next time an FFL asks me how I got an off roster pistol I should have a "cover story" ready...



:cool2:

halifax
02-10-2012, 8:32 AM
Although I've never met her, I understand there is a BOF agent that likes to spread FUD and intimidation during inspections. She is probably more anti-gun than over zealous.

Just sayin

kemasa
02-10-2012, 9:10 AM
Selling complete magazines is only a crime if you do not have a high cap permit. AFAIK, anyone can legally buy from a dealer with a high cap permit but, DOJ will revoke their permit if they do.

Incorrect, take a look at the actual law. It used to be 12020, but has since changed numbers and format, but the main points are the same.

Blackhawk556
02-10-2012, 9:27 AM
One of the newer shops in CenCal is saying the same thing when asked about doing SSE. Basicly this:

"The local DOJ rep told me that doing SSEs is 'risky' and that they are getting ready to 'go after' the main shop in the area that does them"

Beacuse of this, he is not doing SSE pistols.

Seems to be a standard tactic with the DOJ and new FFLs...

this is the same thing that is happening with " we the people firearms"in Clovis. they have a FFL 07 license but don't want to get into SSE stuff because their rep told them the same thing. this store sells ARs and AKs, I don't get why they are worried. I bet when OLL were new to this state, reps would tell gun store owners the same crap. now look at how many stores sell lowers.

Sent from Los Alamos Nuclear Facility

kemasa
02-10-2012, 9:39 AM
If you call the CA DOJ and ask about it, they say all sorts of things, but they also tend to backdown when you tell them that it is legal. It appears that they are just trying to scare people.

I called about a pistol which was designed after a firearm before 1899 and the claim of a customer who said that other FFLs were doing the transfer due to this "exemption" (which does not actually exist, but I wanted to confirm that, not that the DOJ would admit it).

AJAX22
02-10-2012, 9:45 AM
Although I've never met her, I understand there is a BOF agent that likes to spread FUD and intimidation during inspections. She is probably more anti-gun than over zealous.

Just sayin

I've seen video of her in that raid they did on PRKarms...

it was kind of funny, she got her *** handed to her by Jason Davis.

Seems like PRK is still open ;)

franklinarmory
02-10-2012, 9:51 AM
Incorrect, take a look at the actual law. It used to be 12020, but has since changed numbers and format, but the main points are the same.
+1


Why would the DOJ go back and give them a hard time? If anything if the DOJ have been giving them a hard time, they will stop once we empower them with knowledge. Do you think the DOJ comes to my shop and gives me a hard time about anything? They do not. They come and we do our business and everyone is polite and moves on. They know I am not going to buy any of this nonsense, so they don't even try.
+1 Professionalism is the way to go. ...and be able to quote chapter and verse on each issue. I'd love to be a fly on the wall during your inspections. :)

Bobby Hated
02-10-2012, 10:26 AM
email sent 10%.

if the ahop told me this to try to scare me then i should post their name to punish them for unethical business practice. but i dunno, i was adamant that there was no legal basis for what they were telling me and they were like, well thats what DOJ inspector told us.

that the shop doesnt do SSE or sell rebuilds tends to push me in one direction of course.

lets take a vote: should i post the shop name or not?

i wanna do the right thing, just trying to decide what the right thing is.

joefreas
02-10-2012, 10:32 AM
that the shop doesnt do SSE or sell rebuilds

That is all I needed to know.

weekend_plinker
02-10-2012, 10:39 AM
Post the names of the shops

wildhawker
02-10-2012, 11:10 AM
email sent 10%.

if the ahop told me this to try to scare me then i should post their name to punish them for unethical business practice. but i dunno, i was adamant that there was no legal basis for what they were telling me and they were like, well thats what DOJ inspector told us.

that the shop doesnt do SSE or sell rebuilds tends to push me in one direction of course.

lets take a vote: should i post the shop name or not?

i wanna do the right thing, just trying to decide what the right thing is.

The right thing is for you to vote with your wallet.

-Brandon

A-J
02-10-2012, 11:12 AM
Maybe the shops actually ARE being told this because they know that it is a workaround to the safe list, and they're (based on my readings here) powerless to do jack squat about it. Wouldn't be the first time a person or persons in a position of power spread BS to make themselves feel less impotent.

keenkeen
02-10-2012, 11:18 AM
Maybe the shops actually ARE being told this because they know that it is a workaround to the safe list, and they're (based on my readings here) powerless to do jack squat about it. Wouldn't be the first time a person or persons in a position of power spread BS to make themselves feel less impotent.

^^^^ This sounds like the case to me...

CSACANNONEER
02-10-2012, 12:08 PM
Incorrect, take a look at the actual law. It used to be 12020, but has since changed numbers and format, but the main points are the same.

Just did a little research on my phone and, I was wrong. But, now I have more questions than ever about high cap permits,I'll have to do a little more research when I have a full sized screen to look at.

halifax
02-10-2012, 12:11 PM
Maybe the shops actually ARE being told this because they know that it is a workaround to the safe list, and they're (based on my readings here) powerless to do jack squat about it. Wouldn't be the first time a person or persons in a position of power spread BS to make themselves feel less impotent.

I, too, believe they are being told this but they aren't powerless to do jack squat about it. They have the actual law and some very gun savvy lawyers here on their side.

Bobby Hated
02-11-2012, 3:33 AM
off topic. but do you do civil war battle reenactments? i would love to take my Godson to see one. i went to a number of them with my grandfather and with boy scouts when i was a kid and it was a great experience for a boy. is there some kind of schedule of when and where they go on? thanks.

Just did a little research on my phone and, I was wrong. But, now I have more questions than ever about high cap permits,I'll have to do a little more research when I have a full sized screen to look at.

CSACANNONEER
02-11-2012, 6:15 AM
off topic. but do you do civil war battle reenactments? i would love to take my Godson to see one. i went to a number of them with my grandfather and with boy scouts when i was a kid and it was a great experience for a boy. is there some kind of schedule of when and where they go on? thanks.

Thread jack complete. PM sent with some info.

kemasa
02-11-2012, 9:55 AM
Just did a little research on my phone and, I was wrong. But, now I have more questions than ever about high cap permits,I'll have to do a little more research when I have a full sized screen to look at.

Yep :-). The problem is what the law is vs. how it is viewed, plus a lack of funds to push the issue.

CSACANNONEER
02-11-2012, 10:03 AM
Yep :-). The problem is what the law is vs. how it is viewed, plus a lack of funds to push the issue.

I haven't got back to researching this but, it seems to me that ANYONE can SELL +10 round mags to an exempt person without a high cap permit. Yet, DOJ also wants all sales logged and IDs copied????? It appears that the permit is only for the importing and exporting?????? I really need to read an actual permit again instead of the FUD on DOJ's site. Anyone want to post a copy of a permit or PM one to me with all personal info blacked out????

kemasa
02-11-2012, 10:22 AM
Yes, if the person is exempt, the transaction is exempt. Take a look at the FFL exemption :-).

The permit says:


This is to certify the above-named licensee(s) is/are permitted by the Department of Justice pursuant to Penal Code section 12079 to engage in the lawful importation and exportation of large capacity magazines and the activities associated thereto as specified in Penal Code section 12020. This permit is valid throughout its term provided the permittee(s) Centralized List dealership status remains active.


One funny issue is that 12078 and 12020 does not exist anymore.


32310. Except as provided in Article 2 (commencing with Section
32400) of this chapter and in Chapter 1 (commencing with Section
17700) of Division 2 of Title 2, commencing January 1, 2000, any
person in this state who manufactures or causes to be manufactured,
imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for
sale, or who gives, or lends, any large-capacity magazine is
punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year or
in the state prison.

32315. Upon a showing that good cause exists, the Department of
Justice may issue permits for the possession, transportation, or sale
between a person licensed pursuant to Sections 26700 to 26915,
inclusive, and an out-of-state client, of large-capacity magazines.

32410. Section 32310 does not apply to the sale or purchase of any
large-capacity magazine to or by a person licensed pursuant to
Sections 26700 to 26915, inclusive.

CSACANNONEER
02-11-2012, 10:50 AM
Yes, if the person is exempt, the transaction is exempt. Take a look at the FFL exemption :-).

The permit says:



One funny issue is that 12078 and 12020 does not exist anymore.

Thanks for posting the text! I probably have an old copy or two of the one from the shop I worked at around here somewhere but, I have no idea where.

So, no permit is needed to SELL magazines to exempt individuals. I guess that includes " offer or expose for sale" too. Since no permit is required to do this, how does DOJ expect that all "dealers" will keep copies of IDs, letters on Dept. head, etc.? Also, the way the permit is worded, it does not expressly include "manufacturing" in the text. So, can those with permits assemble parts kits?

franklinarmory
02-12-2012, 8:41 AM
If you look at 12078 (or now 32315,) you'll notice that the only people REQUIRED to have the "Large Capacity Magazine License" are actual state recognized dealers. (e.g. those 12071 dealers with a DROS account.) However, there are a lot of exemptions under 12020(b). One of them is the sale of magazines "soley" to law enforcement. The new number for that appears to be 32440, yet the word "importation" seems to be missing. So technically, you could have Joe's Corner Liquor store offering magazines to local coppers even though Joe doesn't have a dealers license or L-Cap Permit.

While bringing this up, I would encourage folks to be ultra responsible if they jump into this. Double check my work. (...The new numbers suck by the way.) And don't be a yahoo that gets a business license just because you might then offer mags for sale to LEOs. If you can't produce a bunch of actual invoices demonstrating sales to LEOs/LEAs, then you will probably get prosecuted.

CSACANNONEER
02-12-2012, 8:57 AM
I vaguely remember a few comments about the corner liquor store not needing a permit because they were not a recognized dealer. So, doesn't this create a special class of people (recognixed dealers) who are then held to extra restrictions and permitting that others are not? I know my wording isn't the greatest here but, y'all should get what I'm saying and, if that's the case, wouldn't this be a great legal arguement for doing away with the need for L Cap permits in the first place?

franklinarmory
02-12-2012, 9:07 AM
Dealers will always be held to a higher standard of responsibility. To some degree, I think we will always want that. But it's just silly how the law was written to harrass dealers while not doing anything about exemptions contained in 12020. It's probably better to just let sleeping dogs lie on this one. If you raise too much of a concern, they may just "fix" the exemption, and then we'll be worse off.

CSACANNONEER
02-12-2012, 9:14 AM
Dealers will always be held to a higher standard of responsibility. To some degree, I think we will always want that. But it's just silly how the law was written to harrass dealers while not doing anything about exemptions contained in 12020. It's probably better to just let sleeping dogs lie on this one. If you raise too much of a concern, they may just "fix" the exemption, and then we'll be worse off.

Yep, we sure don't need a bunch of yahoos screwing things up like the UOCs did. I'll just put another log on the fire so thatmy dog stays warm right where she's at, for now.

tonelar
02-12-2012, 9:16 AM
just got back from PPT my railgun to a fellow calgunner, and the guys at the gun store we did PPT at were saying...

you had me at "guys at the gun store... were saying."

FUD or CADOJ is asking for an ***** kicking.

greasemonkey
02-12-2012, 9:22 AM
That's what this thread is trying to get to the root of, whether it's just gun shop FUD or if DOJ agents actually are going around to other FFL's and misinforming them. Obviously that crap won't fly with most of the FFL's here who know what the law is and know how to professionally, politely reject the FUD with a request to go pound sand.
you had me at "guys at the gun store... were saying."

FUD or CADOJ is asking for an ***** kicking.

anthonyca
02-12-2012, 9:41 AM
I've seen video of her in that raid they did on PRKarms...

it was kind of funny, she got her *** handed to her by Jason Davis.

Seems like PRK is still open ;)

I would pay to see that video. Is it private?

brianm767
02-12-2012, 10:47 AM
Typical gun shop FUD, I've heard this numerous times by shops who do not do SSE, I've been told by folks at "The Range" in Fresno that if I ever got pulled over with my LCP I could be arrested.

Bottom line is, yes the DOJ probably doesn't like the whole SSE thing , but if it was illegal, they would have shut it down , same as with the whole OLL thing, seeing as how they don't even try, proves there's nothing illegal about it as the laws are currently written.

Since they cant do any thing about SSE they'll just look at every thing else about the dealers operation and try to find a mistake on their books to go after them in that way. but there's nothing illegal about the sell and reconversion of SSE pistols.

I remember when most of the dealers in Fresno said the same thing about OLL's, even Gylman & Mayfield would say it's only a matter of time before the local dealers who would sale OLL's were shut down by the DOJ and they would loose their license, now every one sales them, including Mayfields.

I bet in a year or two, the dealer who spread this FUD will be doing SSE's.

Direct Action Solutions
02-13-2012, 4:22 PM
We asked our DOJ agent what his thoughts were while he was auditing us. He response was, " It is not illegal, but some folks just don't like it"

Take it for what it is, but we wanted to make sure everyone was on the same page during our audit.

Direct Action Solutions
02-13-2012, 4:22 PM
...

notme92069
02-13-2012, 6:14 PM
Typical gun shop FUD, I've heard this numerous times by shops who do not do SSE, I've been told by folks at "The Range" in Fresno that if I ever got pulled over with my LCP I could be arrested.

Bottom line is, yes the DOJ probably doesn't like the whole SSE thing , but if it was illegal, they would have shut it down , same as with the whole OLL thing, seeing as how they don't even try, proves there's nothing illegal about it as the laws are currently written.

Since they cant do any thing about SSE they'll just look at every thing else about the dealers operation and try to find a mistake on their books to go after them in that way. but there's nothing illegal about the sell and reconversion of SSE pistols.

I remember when most of the dealers in Fresno said the same thing about OLL's, even Gylman & Mayfield would say it's only a matter of time before the local dealers who would sale OLL's were shut down by the DOJ and they would loose their license, now every one sales them, including Mayfields.

I bet in a year or two, the dealer who spread this FUD will be doing SSE's.


I had a gun store Owner tell me last week that the bullet button isn't legal because "they never changed the law" He also tried to tel me that there is a part of the AW ban that says these rifle are still illegal even if the offending features are removed. He then told me DOJ was going to go door to door to confiscate all of these bullet button rifles. (How since long guns aren't registered?) His source was CADOJ. Two excellent sources of FUD. I decided to keep my mouth shut and not argue with him. He was pissing me off.

TKM
02-13-2012, 7:11 PM
We can't annoy these people with facts if we don't know who they are.

glockwise2000
02-13-2012, 9:06 PM
:popcorn:

tagged

SOCAL INFIDEL
02-13-2012, 9:55 PM
We can't annoy these people with facts if we don't know who they are.

+1
who are these people?!

Baconator
02-14-2012, 5:29 AM
This is why i only go to shops who know wtf they are talking about.

intensefab
02-15-2012, 12:32 PM
I don't mind saying the name of the shop...

My buddy just called me and told me he was in Gun World in Burbank and they told him that the DOJ inspector was just in and told them that doing a SSE and returning it to its original condition after the DROS was illegal. He brought the SSE up because I have one in DROS with someone else and he was interested in it as well.

They told hime that the DOJ would come after me and the FFL for allowing me to return it back to it's original condition.

paul0660
02-15-2012, 12:42 PM
Funny how a bag of magazine parts are just parts but a bag of machine gun parts is a machine gun. Pick a lane!

It is irritating to me that you can ***** your finger all you want in public, but finger your ***** once.....................Jail Time.

halifax
02-15-2012, 12:47 PM
I don't mind saying the name of the shop...

My buddy just called me and told me he was in Gun World in Burbank and they told him that the DOJ inspector was just in and told them that doing a SSE and returning it to its original condition after the DROS was illegal. He brought the SSE up because I have one in DROS with someone else and he was interested in it as well.

They told hime that the DOJ would come after me and the FFL for allowing me to return it back to it's original condition.

Bone up on your Greek and give em a big "μολὼν λαβέ" (Molon Labe)

EBR Works
02-15-2012, 12:50 PM
I don't mind saying the name of the shop...

My buddy just called me and told me he was in Gun World in Burbank and they told him that the DOJ inspector was just in and told them that doing a SSE and returning it to its original condition after the DROS was illegal. He brought the SSE up because I have one in DROS with someone else and he was interested in it as well.

They told hime that the DOJ would come after me and the FFL for allowing me to return it back to it's original condition.

PAGING the right people.... Time for an "adjustment".

CSACANNONEER
02-15-2012, 1:05 PM
I don't mind saying the name of the shop...

My buddy just called me and told me he was in Gun World in Burbank and they told him that the DOJ inspector was just in and told them that doing a SSE and returning it to its original condition after the DROS was illegal. He brought the SSE up because I have one in DROS with someone else and he was interested in it as well.

They told hime that the DOJ would come after me and the FFL for allowing me to return it back to it's original condition.

They will also go after the gas station attendant for "allowing you to" go faster than the maximium speed limit while burning the gas they sold you. Anyone who told your buddy that "they" can go after anyone for complying with the law is a fool.

intensefab
02-15-2012, 1:05 PM
I'm in, tell me where and when!!

Ha!

bruss01
02-17-2012, 6:57 AM
So since the info has been relayed to Ten Percent, has a verification taken place?

Is this gun shop promulgating this info as the OP claims, or was it a simple misunderstanding?

If they were making these claims, was it because that is what they actually believe, or was it just because they want to steer customers away from what they see as the legal "edge" in the interest of being legally "safe"?

If it was a misunderstanding by the FFL, have they been re-educated in the correct state of things? Were they willing to accept correction?

Is there any confirmation from DOJ that their inspectors are laying down this line when they do a site check on an FFL?

I think this is important enough that we all deserve to have it checked out and the info posted publicly.

FeuerFrei
02-17-2012, 9:27 AM
I hesitate to blame the FFL for FUD regarding what is legal and what is illegal.
During an audit, the "agent" tells the FFL "if you sell Saiga shotguns w/mag lock I will shut you down!". Shotguns with magazines are verboten! Dosen't matter if it is locked mag or not.
Do the agents have the power to shut down a FFL on a whim and CAN they get away with it? What recourse do they have if they can't make money during a temporary shut down for selling legally configured weapons?
When has "because I say so" become law?
Sound like blackmail to me.

efillc
02-17-2012, 9:40 AM
Do the agents have the power to shut down a FFL on a whim and CAN they get away with it?
At the federal level, no, there's an administrative hearing first if the ATF auditor finds so many problems that they determine one is needed. No, I've never had to go through a hearing as the three inspections so far have all gone very well.

gixxerfitz
02-17-2012, 11:19 AM
:popcorn:

retep66
02-17-2012, 5:21 PM
So glad this discussion is taking place. I plan on selling a gun purchased back in the early 90's. I have 5, 15 round mags. I get a sense that it is somehow legal that I can break these things down and sell them as Mag Kits? I am talking about a non-LEO PPT.

Is this really a legal loophole? I don't want to be made an example of. Is it safe/legal to advertise as: Gun + 5 Mag kits?

Let me know if I should start as separate thread. Any direction you can provided is appreciated. Thanks!

keenkeen
02-17-2012, 5:53 PM
So glad this discussion is taking place. I plan on selling a gun purchased back in the early 90's. I have 5, 15 round mags. I get a sense that it is somehow legal that I can break these things down and sell them as Mag Kits? I am talking about a non-LEO PPT.

Is this really a legal loophole? I don't want to be made an example of. Is it safe/legal to advertise as: Gun + 5 Mag kits?

Let me know if I should start as separate thread. Any direction you can provided is appreciated. Thanks!

Gun + 5 Mag kits should be good. What type of gun?

Ubermcoupe
02-17-2012, 6:40 PM
Is this really a legal loophole? I don't want to be made an example of. Is it safe/legal to advertise as: Gun + 5 Mag kits?


Itís not really a loop hole as the person you sell it to cannot legally reassemble them in state until the ban is lifted and/or s/he becomes an exempted person.

Itís the same as if you sell the gun + a bag of plastic and springs.

Joe
02-17-2012, 6:58 PM
Total FUD...bet that employee worked at McDonalds last year.

The employee likely worked at the DOJ last year..

retep66
02-17-2012, 8:34 PM
Gun + 5 Mag kits should be good. What type of gun?

Sig P226

retep66
02-17-2012, 9:08 PM
Itís not really a loop hole as the person you sell it to cannot legally reassemble them in state until the ban is lifted and/or s/he becomes an exempted person.

Itís the same as if you sell the gun + a bag of plastic and springs.

Makes sense. Thank you for the response.

Bestguns
02-19-2012, 7:05 PM
I believe Cal DOJ sends advisory bulletins to Cal FFL's on issues like the SSE and mag rebuild kits (MRK). It's their way of broadcasting to try to establish a certain level of voluntary compliance, amongst those FFL's inclined to voluntarily comply. Has there been a bulletin? If not, DOJ should send one instead of (as others have asserted) having field agents tell FFL's that DOJ will be moving against another FFL in the future. That tactic is stupid policy; compromise an ongoing investigation of one FFL to influence another FFL not to SSE or MRK. Just my $.02 and maybe worth $1.25.

wildhawker
02-19-2012, 7:39 PM
Best, they can't bulletin something wherein they admit to an official policy of enforcing underground regulations and harassment.

quiet-wyatt
02-19-2012, 8:01 PM
It's their way of broadcasting to try to establish a certain level of voluntary compliance, amongst those FFL's inclined to voluntarily comply.

Voluntarily comply with what? Their underground regulations?

greasemonkey
02-19-2012, 8:48 PM
Yes, exactly that...ridiculous, isn't it? That's why we're not likely to see a bulletin, just verbal instructions to FFL's, either over the phone or in person.

All, not being an FFL myself, is there any reason at all to ask a question of an agent over the phone or believe anything they say over the phone (or in person, for that matter)? After having seen a thinslice of all the shenanigans the DOJ has pulled in the last decade, shouldn't any sort of important question be asked/answered in writing?
Voluntarily comply with what? Their underground regulations?

kemasa
02-20-2012, 9:30 AM
The people on the phone seem to back down with the SSE when the reality is presented to them, which tends to indicate to me that they know exactly what they are doing.

As to getting it in writing, good luck on that. They won't answer what they don't want to and I think you would need to go to court to force them to respond.