PDA

View Full Version : Ammunition and powder


Librarian
02-07-2012, 8:50 PM
Just added a new page to the wiki,
http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/Ammunition_and_Black_Powder

Missing live links to the code sections, because the site is very slow tonight.

Anything to add? Any needed edits?

ShootinMedic
02-07-2012, 10:08 PM
Very clear and well laid out. Great job as usual!

Scarecrow Repair
02-08-2012, 8:09 AM
It says the limit on black powder is one pound. What if one wants to have one pound each of 4f, 3f, 2f, and 1f?

Librarian
02-08-2012, 11:52 AM
It says the limit on black powder is one pound. What if one wants to have one pound each of 4f, 3f, 2f, and 1f?

Presuming those are designations for kinds of black powder, you would need a permit; law says ONE.

Scarecrow Repair
02-08-2012, 12:38 PM
Presuming those are designations for kinds of black powder, you would need a permit; law says ONE.

Yes; 4f is used for flintlock pan priming, 3f for handguns, 2f for long guns, and 1f for cannon. I have never seen it for sales in less than one pound cans. You can certainly use 3f for everything, but I suppose you'd want to cut back a bit for muskets since the pressure would build up faster, and priming probably wouldn't be as reliable, if flintlock priming can ever be called reliable.

ETA the higher the f number, the finer the grain.

GOEX FFF
02-08-2012, 12:50 PM
It could be helpful to side note that Pyrodex and 777, being a Black Powder substitute is not federally classified as an explosive being that it is not impact-sensitive as true BP is. Pyrodex and 777, even though used in cap n' ball and muzzle loaders, are considered a smokeless propellant. But I guess you got that covered under the smokless clause.

leadstorm
02-08-2012, 1:48 PM
Between HSC 5150, 5250, the sections outlined here, and I'm sure other sections, there is quite a bit of treachery afoot in the Health & Safety Code...

Is there any insight out there on the likelihood, expense, and procedure (for a private shooter/reloader) of obtaining a permit for possession/storage of powder greater than those amounts?

Librarian
02-08-2012, 2:04 PM
It could be helpful to side note that Pyrodex and 777, being a Black Powder substitute is not federally classified as an explosive being that it is not impact-sensitive as true BP is. Pyrodex and 777, even though used in cap n' ball and muzzle loaders, are considered a smokeless propellant. But I guess you got that covered under the smokless clause.

Do you know where the Fed classification is? I'll add it, just to distinguish Fed from CA law.

Librarian
02-08-2012, 2:05 PM
Between HSC 5150, 5250, the sections outlined here, and I'm sure other sections, there is quite a bit of treachery afoot in the Health & Safety Code...

Is there any insight out there on the likelihood, expense, and procedure (for a private shooter/reloader) of obtaining a permit for possession/storage of powder greater than those amounts?

I think CSACANNONEER really has a cannon... More than 1 Lb of powder for those.

16in50calNavalRifle
02-08-2012, 6:23 PM
Question about smokeless powder and the Wiki info.

The Wiki states "There is nothing in any California Code that regulates quantities for any of purchase, ownership, possession or storage."

Yet, just below that, CA law is cited thus: "12102. This chapter does not apply to any possession or use of 20 pounds or less of smokeless powder ..... "

So - doing the arithmetic here, doesn't the Code, in fact, through Section 12102, limit storage, possession etc. of smokeless powder to 20 lbs.? At quantities north of that, the various restrictions/permitting described in the earlier code sections would apply.

Please correct me here.

Of course there is also the question of local/county fire regulations. So far I cannot find anything in San Diego County or City information on the web relating to flammable solids (the classification, I believe, of smokeless powder). But that's another issue I suppose.

And by the way, thanks to Librarian and CalGuns for these wonderful Wikis and forums. It's horrendous enough navigating the disaster that is CA "law" and regulation, esp. WRT firearms - imagine doing so before this site was available as a resource.

Librarian
02-08-2012, 6:34 PM
The section title is: "California law does not address any limit to personal ownership or storage of ammunition"

But, I did change the text below the title to "There is nothing in any California Code that regulates quantities for any of purchase, ownership, possession or storage of ammunition or parts - primers, bullets, cases. "

I just can't find anything in fire regs anywhere for personal storage of ammo; there are things for commercial operations, but seemingly not for 'at home'.

Yankee Clipper
02-08-2012, 8:05 PM
The section title is: "California law does not address any limit to personal ownership or storage of ammunition"

But, I did change the text below the title to "There is nothing in any California Code that regulates quantities for any of purchase, ownership, possession or storage of ammunition or parts - primers, bullets, cases. "

I just can't find anything in fire regs anywhere for personal storage of ammo; there are things for commercial operations, but seemingly not for 'at home'.

Thanks for posting the legal issues in this, the appropriate forum, but as a practical matter an insurance company can also include, in their homeowner polices exceptions to coverage that would otherwise be legal in this state. I don't think any of us read our policies close enough to know if black powder or smokeless powder accelerates a fire in our homes whether our coverage is still enforce. For most of us that's our biggest asset and can be ruin us if not covered. Hopefully someone more knowledgeable regarding this issue can shed some light on this side issue.
Thanks for letting me interject here.

Librarian
02-08-2012, 8:25 PM
Thanks for posting the legal issues in this, the appropriate forum, but as a practical matter an insurance company can also include, in their homeowner polices exceptions to coverage that would otherwise be legal in this state. I don't think any of us read our policies close enough to know if black powder or smokeless powder accelerates a fire in our homes whether our coverage is still enforce. For most of us that's our biggest asset and can be ruin us if not covered. Hopefully someone more knowledgeable regarding this issue can shed some light on this side issue.
Thanks for letting me interject here.

That's a useful consideration, but I'm not sure there's a general solution; at a guess, each company might have its own rules.

If we can get some good, widely applicable info, I'll be happy to add it.

BTW, let me add that the wiki is by no means my 'personal property'. If any of you have a good idea of something that ought to be there, sign up as a member there and PM me with your user name - I can add you to the wiki authors group.

Supporting Calguns and the Calguns Foundation doesn't have to cost money (although that's good, too!).

Overbear
02-09-2012, 9:28 AM
One thing to add, and I will try to find the PC for it I did last time. But somewhere deep in the codes, CA does state that over 999,999 rounds of completed ammo, you must use a seperate storage container rated for fire for each 999,999 rounds.

GIve me a bit im at work, and need to try and find that link.

CCrawford
02-09-2012, 1:55 PM
It was kicked around about a couple of weeks ago here.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=528698

Scottie15
02-09-2012, 4:13 PM
Does 'personal use' mean by household, or by person within the household? Could I have my 20 lbs, and my roommate have their 20 lbs? HSC 12102 seems to apply to possession, so 20 lb per person possession limit seems legitimate. Thoughts?

A couple group buys of powder adds up to 20 lbs pretty quick...

Librarian
02-09-2012, 4:30 PM
It was kicked around about a couple of weeks ago here.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=528698

Thanks! More stuff to add....

Librarian
02-09-2012, 4:33 PM
Does 'personal use' mean by household, or by person within the household? Could I have my 20 lbs, and my roommate have their 20 lbs? HSC 12102 seems to apply to possession, so 20 lb per person possession limit seems legitimate. Thoughts?

A couple group buys of powder adds up to 20 lbs pretty quick...

The phrasing of 12101 starts "12101. (a) No person..." but I bet the legislature would be surprised by that. Can't say for sure, but looks like per-person.