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5thgen4runner
02-06-2012, 11:35 PM
I have a LTC and wondering something:


Hypothetical:
I live in the hills and i take back double lane, dark, lonely roads at night (i work late) to get home. No cell phone signal also. If someone where to follow me and start to ram me trying to run me off the road and possibly kill me (lots of trees and canyons) Can i draw my ccw weapon and with a clear shot (no innocent behind) fire into the other car to stop a threat?(I drive a suv that the rear window rolls down) Im asking because i've been followed a little too close for comfort and always pull over and let them pass. Usually the suspects always look like crackheads/tweekers driving old beat up cars. Im just wondering if it would be legal to stop a threat while in a moving vehicle. Because if they are that crazed to ram me, and i stop and pull over it would be a nastier situation. I can't speed up the roads are narrow and dark and that would be a bad situation also.

What would someone do in this kind of situation?

RRichie09
02-07-2012, 12:58 AM
I have a LTC and wondering something:


Hypothetical:
I live in the hills and i take back double lane, dark, lonely roads at night (i work late) to get home. No cell phone signal also. If someone where to follow me and start to ram me trying to run me off the road and possibly kill me (lots of trees and canyons) Can i draw my ccw weapon and with a clear shot (no innocent behind) fire into the other car to stop a threat?(I drive a suv that the rear window rolls down) Im asking because i've been followed a little too close for comfort and always pull over and let them pass. Usually the suspects always look like crackheads/tweekers driving old beat up cars. Im just wondering if it would be legal to stop a threat while in a moving vehicle. Because if they are that crazed to ram me, and i stop and pull over it would be a nastier situation. I can't speed up the roads are narrow and dark and that would be a bad situation also.

What would someone do in this kind of situation?

"I'll hit the brakes, he'll fly right by."

Get your gun ready, hit the brakes hard to get separation. Then handle the situation as it unfolds.

If you start shooting while driving I think you'll get in a lot of trouble and the BG might still continue to ram you, at which point you have 1 hand on the wheel.

Also, what if someone is trying to get around you because they want to go faster. They accidentally hit your car while trying to go around. You think they rammed you and start blasting at them. That won't end well either.

*This is theoretical and written by an arm-chair commando*

adrenaline
02-07-2012, 1:30 AM
I have an LTC as well. My goal would be diffuse it as much as possible. If that means signaling to get off the road (because they are anxious to pass), then I'll do so and they speed right by (thinking they are victorious). Let them have their victory.

Now, I would have my firearm (like I always do) by my center console fully ready to go in the case that they stop with me or plan some crazy drive by......

However, if they are idiots truly wanting to get by....let em...

The only scenario that I've ever played out in my head where I would fire from my car is being stopped at a stoplight and someone coming up to my car with gun in hand to jack my car (modified compact sportscar).

Edit: After thinking about it more, if they literally tried to ram me....I'd gun it get to a safe spot on the road where I can pull over (way way over)...and hit the brakes like RRichie09 said. I would NOT hit the brakes (brake check) when they were near by though...at least not in a manner that would be escalating it. Not sure about the letter of the law on this, but anytime you don't have a clear shot I'm guessing would be a risk to having the LTC. Just imagine that the person trying to run you off the road is a upset husband that is currently having an argument with his wife (kids in the back). How do you think your court trial would go if a stray hit wife or kids?

RRichie09
02-07-2012, 1:44 AM
If that means signaling to get off the road (because they are anxious to pass), then I'll do so and they speed right by (thinking they are victorious). Let them have their victory.


I thought it was common courtesy to let someone by if they want to go faster, especially on a one-lane road.

IntoForever
02-07-2012, 2:00 AM
Without any physical contact or visible firearm, I'd let them go by as soon as possible however the location I chose would be such that I could throw it in reverse quickly if they try to stop (keep an out). I leave the trailer hitch on for a reason, if they are in a caddy and ram me, their radiator is gone. I remember reading something saying it is a felony to discharge a firearm from a moving vehicle however if my life was in danger, the law would take a back seat. Hopefully I'll never be in that situation however I live by "pray for peace, prepare for war". Plan your avoidance, diffuse, escape, attack scenario.

adrenaline
02-07-2012, 2:34 AM
I thought it was common courtesy to let someone by if they want to go faster, especially on a one-lane road.Speed limit 45...you are doing 60...guy behind you wants to go even faster...barely any shoulder...lots of gravel.

Sometimes on these roads, I don't want to even pull over until there is an obvious safe spot (shoulder)...so I'll speed up really fast signal...and get off.

Yes you are right...there is common courtesy. However, not everyone is just going to pull over as soon as someone kisses their behind in the case that there is either a rough or no shoulder. I sure as hell don't. I know it may piss people off at times, but.... my safety of self and property comes first before all idiots on the road. :D

zhyla
02-07-2012, 5:41 AM
:facepalm:

Jack L
02-07-2012, 6:21 AM
You cannot shoot across a road...........or so 'the book' says. I'd do whatever it took to save my life and explaiin it later in the court of law.

Foulball
02-07-2012, 6:24 AM
:facepalm:

Exactly!

:rolleyes:

r3dn3ck
02-07-2012, 6:42 AM
you always have the right to self defense. Period. You always have the responsibility to answer for the repercussions of your actions. Choose well.

Shooting from a car is stupid in most cases. You ruin your hearing, ain't gunna hit jack, can't call those bullets back, waste ammo. The car is a weapon of unthinkable power and a conveyance out of the path of danger and a steel safety cage and should be employed as such. Pick your battle, do maximum damage in minimum time and have zero mercy on your attacker. Once you've disabled their vehicle you decide if you can get away or if you need to push the response further to achieve unequivocal victory. if they're trying to kill you, kill em' right back.

Decoligny
02-07-2012, 7:22 AM
The best thing you can do is let them pass.

If they are intent on using their vehicle as a weapon, then your next best option is to pull over somewhere that the individual can't use their vehicle as a weapon. Pull over near the trees where he can't drive in after you. Take up a defensive postion with your weapon at the ready and if the individual gets out of their car to come after you, fire from cover.

I had a female supervisor when I was in the Air Force who was driving in Montana. She had a car with a male driver following her for about 40 minutes (middle of nowhere, pre-cell phone era). She finally saw an appropriate place where she could pull over. It afforded her large rocks for protection from the vehicle. She grabbed her .357 magnum revolver, took position behind a large rock, and waited. The guy saw the revolver pointed in his direction and took off tires squeeling to get the hell out of there.

Mesa Tactical
02-07-2012, 8:03 AM
What would someone do in this kind of situation?

Almost certainly go to jail.

Endless facepalms while the investigators are taking your statements . . . "they wanted to pass me, but there were no turnouts . . . I had no choice but to resort to deadly force!" If they found evidence on your bumper that someone was actually ramming you from behind, this might give them pause, but since this is pretty unlikely ever to happen, they would be going by your word alone. There are always brainless idiots following inches behind the car in front of them. We have all (including the investigators) experienced this, and we rarely need to resort to violence.

Besides, you aren't going to hit anything shooting from a moving vehicle, unless you are Tom Cruise.

Another case of road rage. Lock 'em up.




PS: on a personal note, I spend a lot of time driving in the mountains and though I am a pretty conservative driver on winding roads I have a weird aversion to anyone riding my ***, anyone at all. I don't care if it's a minivan full of nuns, if someone comes up behind me I pull over to let them pass at the next turnout (I don't wait for the legal maximum of five cars or whatever). I reckon that makes it take a little more time getting down the mountain, but it also keeps me out of trouble.

a1c
02-07-2012, 8:15 AM
I thought it was common courtesy to let someone by if they want to go faster, especially on a one-lane road.

Exactly. That's how it's done in rural California, especially mountainous areas.

In fact, I believe there is something to that effect in the VC.

5thgen4runner
02-07-2012, 8:28 AM
I don't get the face palm...however

thanks for everyone that posted your thoughts. i think i set up the hypothetical wrong:

your driving down the road minding your own business, dark, lonely, no cell signal, etc. your are situationally aware so no surprises. you see these headlights coming up fast so you try speed up a little. cant no room these roads i live on are 30-50 mph and a lot of them no turn outs. you keep driving and and look and you can see the car has turned off their lights and next thing you feel is a slam into you. not a accident slam continued like a person trying to run you off the road. Like a PIT maneuver......

Im not looking for a Rambo answer and i know more then likely in a situation like this you won't get a clean shot at a threat(clean as in a hit, not if innocents are behind). But is there some Big NO NO trying to stop a threat while moving in a vehicle. Example "you could of ran away" or "your in a metal car(protection) why did you shoot to stop a threat he wasn't going to hurt you by ramming you" and you can keep going.

sorensen440
02-07-2012, 8:35 AM
Are you sure he isn't trying to warn you that there is a man in the back seat with a kitchen knife?

a1c
02-07-2012, 8:42 AM
I don't get the face palm...however

thanks for everyone that posted your thoughts. i think i set up the hypothetical wrong:

your driving down the road minding your own business, dark, lonely, no cell signal, etc. your are situationally aware so no surprises. you see these headlights coming up fast so you try speed up a little. cant no room these roads i live on are 30-50 mph and a lot of them no turn outs. you keep driving and and look and you can see the car has turned off their lights and next thing you feel is a slam into you. not a accident slam continued like a person trying to run you off the road. Like a PIT maneuver......

Im not looking for a Rambo answer and i know more then likely in a situation like this you won't get a clean shot at a threat(clean as in a hit, not if innocents are behind). But is there some Big NO NO trying to stop a threat while moving in a vehicle. Example "you could of ran away" or "your in a metal car(protection) why did you shoot to stop a threat he wasn't going to hurt you by ramming you" and you can keep going.

California has a "stand your ground" doctrine. Should you find yourself in this situation, you would be fine legally should you have to use your firearm if you fear for your life.

I think a lot of the reactions you see here are what you and what LTC applicants are told during their training, which is that drawing your gun is a last resort thing. Obviously, you should do your best to avoid a confrontational situation, or deescalate it as best as you can.

If that fails, then you can use your firearm. As I said, you can stand your ground. As to where you should keep your firearm, it all depends on your vehicle. I drive two and they both require a different way to secure the handgun should I want to reach for it quickly.

Decoligny
02-07-2012, 10:10 AM
I think the key issue is the fact that someone is using a multi-thousand pound vehicle as a weapon by ramming into the rear of your car.

1. How does blindly throwing small pieces of metal aid you in stopping the attack. Unless you completely luck out and hit the windshield in just the right spot, while swerving from side to side to avoid being hit by the car, then it is futile to shoot at a moving vehicle from a moving vehicle.

2. You are also driving a multi-thousand pound vehicle. Utilize this weapon as a defense to the best of your ability. Speed is not your ally here, slowing down to the point that the person behind you either passes you, or no longer has the ability to impact you at high speed.

3. If possible, take the vehicles out of the equation. If you truly believe that the individual ramming you intents to do you great bodily harm, then try to get both vehicles stopped. You stand a much greater chance of hitting a target that is on foot as opposed to in a moving vehicle. Use the stopped vehicle for cover and concealment.

5thgen4runner
02-07-2012, 10:14 AM
I think the key issue is the fact that someone is using a multi-thousand pound vehicle as a weapon by ramming into the rear of your car.

1. How does blindly throwing small pieces of metal aid you in stopping the attack. Unless you completely luck out and hit the windshield in just the right spot, while swerving from side to side to avoid being hit by the car, then it is futile to shoot at a moving vehicle from a moving vehicle.

2. You are also driving a multi-thousand pound vehicle. Utilize this weapon as a defense to the best of your ability. Speed is not your ally here, slowing down to the point that the person behind you either passes you, or no longer has the ability to impact you at high speed.

3. If possible, take the vehicles out of the equation. If you truly believe that the individual ramming you intents to do you great bodily harm, then try to get both vehicles stopped. You stand a much greater chance of hitting a target that is on foot as opposed to in a moving vehicle. Use the stopped vehicle for cover and concealment.

thank you thats makes sense.

Ron-Solo
02-07-2012, 10:51 AM
You want to use deadly force for bad driving? Go turn in your CCW and sell your guns. You are going to end up in prison with this line of thinking.

You've been watching too much TV if you think you are going to stop a moving vehicle with a handgun. More than likely, you won't even penetrate the windshield.

Ultimate FAIL.

5thgen4runner
02-07-2012, 12:14 PM
You want to use deadly force for bad driving? Go turn in your CCW and sell your guns. You are going to end up in prison with this line of thinking.

Yuve been watching too much TV if you think you are going to stop a moving vehicle with a handgun. More than likely, you won't even penetrate the windshield.

Ultimate FAIL.

Typical Ron-solo answer....WTF are you talking about. Turn in my ccw? Deadly force for Bad driving? NO! For attempting to hurt and cause serious injury or death by using their vehicle. Im not wondering if i can stop a car with a handgun. It was a legal question if their is a specific law regarding firing a weapon from car in the use of self defense.

Anti-Hero
02-07-2012, 12:28 PM
You'll be very hard pressed to articulate just cause for deadly force in the VERY UNLIKELY situations you outlined. Not to mention just the act of firing a weapon from a moving vehicle brings it's own PC violations.

This is just another case of "can I shoot if ..." masturbatory thinking.

5thgen4runner
02-07-2012, 12:33 PM
You'll be very hard pressed to articulate just cause for deadly force in the VERY UNLIKELY situations you outlined. Not to mention just the act of firing a weapon from a moving vehicle brings it's own PC violations.

This is just another case of "can I shoot if ..." masturbatory thinking.

Bolded: true. Now the pc I've read for firing a weapon from a moving vehicle only is directed towards hunting from a vehicle, or is there a different pc?

Anti-Hero
02-07-2012, 1:12 PM
Bolded: true. Now the pc I've read for firing a weapon from a moving vehicle only is directed towards hunting from a vehicle, or is there a different pc?

I don't have time to research it at the moment, but I believe it's along the lines of: "Any missile fired from a moving vehicle, i.e. thrown, shot, ejected, etc." was a crime.

Anti-Hero
02-07-2012, 1:20 PM
Looks like I may have it backwards: I may have been thinking of the laws about throwing things "AT" vehicles, not from them.

http://www.bestattorney.com/throwing-objects-23110.html

But this also applies to firing from a vehicle, although I think there are exemptions such as self defense. http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/12034.html

5thgen4runner
02-07-2012, 1:26 PM
Looks like I may have it backwards: I may have been thinking of the laws about throwing things "AT" vehicles, not from them.

http://www.bestattorney.com/throwing-objects-23110.html

But this also applies to firing from a vehicle, although I think there are exemptions such as self defense. http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/12034.html

excellent i don't see a exemption for self defense maybe the wise ones know if there is one....thank you sir!

RRichie09
02-07-2012, 1:30 PM
Speed limit 45...you are doing 60...guy behind you wants to go even faster...barely any shoulder...lots of gravel.

Sometimes on these roads, I don't want to even pull over until there is an obvious safe spot (shoulder)...so I'll speed up really fast signal...and get off.

Yes you are right...there is common courtesy. However, not everyone is just going to pull over as soon as someone kisses their behind in the case that there is either a rough or no shoulder. I sure as hell don't. I know it may piss people off at times, but.... my safety of self and property comes first before all idiots on the road. :D

I wasn't suggesting that you endanger yourself to let them by. I said what I said because you called the people going faster than you idiots and you suggested it was about winning or losing. It sounds like you hold negative feelings towards anyone going faster than you. If your going 60 in a 45 the person going 50 may have the same thoughts towards you, but imo thats the wrong attitude to have.

If someone wants to go faster then I just let them by as soon as I can with no ill feelings towards them. Its not like I'll be paying their speeding ticket nor will they slow me down.

If they get mad because you are waiting for a turn out to let them pass then f'em. However, I had so many people drive right by a turn off or speed up when you try to pass. I just dont understand the logic.

D Harry
02-07-2012, 1:59 PM
Rig an oil drop under the back of your car.

NytWolf
02-07-2012, 2:15 PM
To the OP (and the answer to the facepalm questions above):

Since when did LTC limit you to your home or business, or a stationary platform?

CSACANNONEER
02-07-2012, 2:22 PM
:facepalm:
+1


Let's just say this, if you think of a hypothetical senerio and don't know if you have the right to use deadly force to defend yourself in said senerio, maybe you shouldn't. Only use deadly force when you are forced to in order to save your life or well being (or someone else's). The fact that you even had to ask about this shows me that you probably should take Ron Solo's advice and at least stop carrying and don't touch a firearm until you are mature enough to know when to and when not to use it to defend yourself.

Coded-Dude
02-07-2012, 2:28 PM
This is why when I travel backroads, I keep a .50 mounted on a roof turret..........never can tell when you're going to cross those dirt road vigilante car gangs that we always hear about.

Ron-Solo
02-07-2012, 2:29 PM
If you can defend yourself from a charge of 26100 PC or 245 PC or 664/187 PC, go for it.

But like I said, if you don't understand when you can and can't use deadly force, you shouldn't be carrying, because you could very likely land in prison.

winnre
02-07-2012, 2:34 PM
I have had road rage drivers on my tail, following 12 inches away at 60mph, you pull over and they follow, not fun. So drive to a police station. Drive to a place that's well lit. Do not drive home, duhh! And yes I have held a firearm in my hands in case it turns into a drive-by (if they shoot first of course).

Drive slow, they will eventually tire of you, or say you are sorry if that helps and acknowledge their vast intellect and superiority.

Your firearm is a LAST resort. Think of ways OUT of your situation before drawing it.

5thgen4runner
02-07-2012, 3:18 PM
I have had road rage drivers on my tail, following 12 inches away at 60mph, you pull over and they follow, not fun. So drive to a police station. Drive to a place that's well lit. Do not drive home, duhh! And yes I have held a firearm in my hands in case it turns into a drive-by (if they shoot first of course).

Drive slow, they will eventually tire of you, or say you are sorry if that helps and acknowledge their vast intellect and superiority.

Your firearm is a LAST resort. Think of ways OUT of your situation before drawing it.

Yes agreed

5thgen4runner
02-07-2012, 3:28 PM
+1


Let's just say this, if you think of a hypothetical senerio and don't know if you have the right to use deadly force to defend yourself in said senerio, maybe you shouldn't. Only use deadly force when you are forced to in order to save your life or well being (or someone else's). The fact that you even had to ask about this shows me that you probably should take Ron Solo's advice and at least stop carrying and don't touch a firearm until you are mature enough to know when to and when not to use it to defend yourself.

If you can defend yourself from a charge of 26100 PC or 245 PC or 664/187 PC, go for it.

But like I said, if you don't understand when you can and can't use deadly force, you shouldn't be carrying, because you could very likely land in prison.

Next time I'll think twice to ask a legal question because of people on the forum like you both. I ask a honest to God legal question of use of deadly force and pc regarding shooting from a vehicle and get met with "turn in your ccw" and "don't touch a firearm until your mature". Anybody with a LTC knows the burden of what rest on their shoulder carrying a concealed weapon. A little clarification or insight from people that have better knowledge of code. Thanks for nothing and welcome to my ignore list again...

Mesa Tactical
02-07-2012, 3:31 PM
Rig an oil drop under the back of your car.

http://images.wikia.com/jamesbond/images/0/0e/Sean_Connery_with_1964_Aston_Martin_DB5.jpg

a1c
02-07-2012, 3:38 PM
Next time I'll think twice to ask a legal question because of people on the forum like you both. I ask a honest to God legal question of use of deadly force and pc regarding shooting from a vehicle and get met with "turn in your ccw" and "don't touch a firearm until your mature". Anybody with a LTC knows the burden of what rest on their shoulder carrying a concealed weapon. A little clarification or insight from people that have better knowledge of code. Thanks for nothing and welcome to my ignore list again...

I'm sorry, but you got those replies because you are the one who suggested a rather far-fetched scenario where a lot of factors can come in and come into equation.

If you have been paying attention to your LTC training, you should already have a clear answer to your question. Whether you are in your vehicle, in your home or in a store is irrelevant.

Now if you're asking whether or not you can shoot at someone trying to kill you with their vehicle, the answer is probably yes, but seriously, are they really trying to kill you, or just trying to pass you?

Pull over when you can, let them pass, go home, kiss your loved ones, have a sip of brandy, and go to bed.

And if they're really going to go Mad Max on your butt for some random reason, then I doubt a gun will be that useful unless they managed to get you off road, in a ditch, got out and are now going to try to kill you like in some bad horror movie.

Coded-Dude
02-07-2012, 3:40 PM
http://gifs.gifbin.com/092010/1284543188_machine-gun-intimidation.gif

:hide:

lowk_18
02-07-2012, 3:45 PM
If you can legally defend yourself from within a stationary car at a stop light, then it seems to logically follow that one can legally defend themselves from within a car period.

CSACANNONEER
02-07-2012, 5:45 PM
Next time I'll think twice to ask a legal question because of people on the forum like you both. I ask a honest to God legal question of use of deadly force and pc regarding shooting from a vehicle and get met with "turn in your ccw" and "don't touch a firearm until your mature". Anybody with a LTC knows the burden of what rest on their shoulder carrying a concealed weapon. A little clarification or insight from people that have better knowledge of code. Thanks for nothing and welcome to my ignore list again...

I will still suggest that you do not carry a firearm until you completely understand the answer to your question. You should not have been able to get a LTC if you don't already know the answer to your question. The mere fact that you feel that you have to ask this question only proves our point. Do you know why you received a LTC in the first place? BEFORE you carry a firearm, you are supposed to already know under what circumstances you can legally use it. You can play all the "what if" games you want to but, the bottom line is that you should only use a firearm when there is no other option. At that point, you should only be worried about staying alive and stopping the threat to you. If you have time to be worried about anything else, don't pull your gun out in the first place. Got it?


But, but, what if I accidently forget to remove my gun and TSA doesn't find it. Then, I board a commercial flight and, in mid flight the whole crew turns into zombies. Would it be legal for me to discharge my gun while the plane is in flight?

jimx
02-07-2012, 7:18 PM
You want to use deadly force for bad driving? Go turn in your CCW and sell your guns. You are going to end up in prison with this line of thinking.

Yuve been watching too much TV if you think you are going to stop a moving vehicle with a handgun. More than likely, you won't even penetrate the windshield.

Ultimate FAIL.




This is just another case of "can I shoot if ..." masturbatory thinking.

The more I read this forum the more I realize that some people should not have guns, let alone a CCW.

Mesa Tactical
02-08-2012, 6:32 AM
But, but, what if I accidently forget to remove my gun and TSA doesn't find it. Then, I board a commercial flight and, in mid flight the whole crew turns into zombies. Would it be legal for me to discharge my gun while the plane is in flight?

Hmm, this is a frightening scenario. I suggest folks carry Glaser safety slugs for just such an eventuality.

Jack L
02-08-2012, 7:18 AM
If you can defend yourself from a charge of 26100 PC or 245 PC or 664/187 PC, go for it.

But like I said, if you don't understand when you can and can't use deadly force, you shouldn't be carrying, because you could very likely land in prison.

Agreed. And prison is basically hell on earth if you ask me from what I see on TV.

jdouglas
02-08-2012, 4:13 PM
The more I read this forum the more I realize that some people should not have guns, let alone a CCW.

I'm totally with you. I'm writing a letter to Obama right now; hopefully we can get rid of the 2nd Amendment. Or at least we should regulate guns a little more, so crazy people don't wind up with them. Maybe even make a two year waiting period before you can go in to pick up new firearm purchases.

;)

RRichie09
02-08-2012, 4:33 PM
I'm totally with you. I'm writing a letter to Obama right now; hopefully we can get rid of the 2nd Amendment. Or at least we should regulate guns a little more, so crazy people don't wind up with them. Maybe even make a two year waiting period before you can go in to pick up new firearm purchases.

;)

No, the wait period needs to be something more random or the dems will never go for it. I propose a 700 day wait period. :D