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stitchnicklas
02-06-2012, 10:39 PM
i know in california you can't have a nvg scope on your weapon.

but what are the reg's and laws regarding other nvg type gear??

can i have nvg goggle and a ir designator laser http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/2LMXUNIIR-1.html

any law against possession of a nvg scope not mounted on a weapon???

gun toting monkeyboy
02-07-2012, 12:17 PM
Ummm... Yes you can have NV scopes on your weapons. But you can not have a NV device that magnifies AND illuminates the target with an artificial IR light source. So if your device has no magnification, you can have an IR light on it. If it has magnification, you can't. At least that is what I remember of this discussion last time through. I am sure somebody will be along to correct me if I am wrong.

-Mb

Markinsac
02-07-2012, 1:12 PM
Penal Code 468.

Any person who knowingly buys, sells, receives, disposes of, conceals, or has in his possession a sniperscope shall be guilty of a misdemeanor, punishable by a fine not to exceed one thousand dollars ($1,000) or by imprisonment in the county jail for not more than one year, or by both such fine and imprisonment.
As used in this section, sniperscope means any attachment, device or similar contrivance designed for or adaptable to use on a firearm which, through the use of a projected infrared light source and electronic telescope, enables the operator thereof to visually determine and locate the presence of objects during the nighttime.
This section shall not prohibit the authorized use or possession of such sniperscope by a member of the armed forces of the United States or by police officers, peace officers, or law enforcement officers authorized by the properly constituted authorities for the enforcement of law or ordinances; nor shall this section prohibit the use or possession of such sniperscope when used solely for scientific research or educational purposes.

jwkincal
02-07-2012, 1:30 PM
Yeah... "projected infrared light source" means only ACTIVE night vision devices are covered.

PASSIVE night vision devices such as a "starlight scope" (which uses ambient light amplification) or a thermal imaging scope (without an IR lamp, of course) would be legal according to the way the law is written.

DO NOT expect Barney Fife to know the difference...

gun toting monkeyboy
02-07-2012, 1:49 PM
"through the use of a projected infrared light source and electronic telescope"

The and is the key to this law. As written, the scope MUST have both a source of IR light, AND be a telescope. You can go with a regular ATN gen 1 scope, without the light source attached to it, and set up IR floodlights until they can see the site from orbit. It will still be legal per the law.

Librarian
02-07-2012, 2:41 PM
One of the two original questions was 'what about NVG NOT attached to a weapon?'

And I believe the answer is 'no regulation for ownership or use'.

Chosen_1
02-07-2012, 2:44 PM
nor shall this section prohibit the use or possession of such sniperscope when used solely for scientific research or educational purposes.

If you want a sniperscope (a scope with all of the follow features: magnification and IR illumination); you're using it for scientific research.

:shifty:

gun toting monkeyboy
02-07-2012, 3:40 PM
If you want a sniperscope (a scope with all of the follow features: magnification and IR illumination); you're using it for scientific research.

:shifty:

Testing the hypothesis that coyotes shot at night are just as vulnerable to bullets as those shot during the day? :rolleyes:

stitchnicklas
02-07-2012, 8:25 PM
so a non-magnifying nvg scope and a separate ir designator is considered ok setup then and legally possess is fine.

gun toting monkeyboy
02-07-2012, 9:03 PM
yes.

Quiet
02-07-2012, 11:01 PM
I posted this in the past and it comes from when I sold visible/IR lasers & night vision during the late-'90s.

Summary...
Active IR scope with magnification = illegal
Active IR scope with no magnification = legal
Passive IR scope with magnification = legal
Passive IR scope with magnification and an IR illuminator = illegal
Passive IR scope with no magnifcation = legal
Passive IR scope with no magnification and an IR illuminator = legal
Active IR goggles with magnification = legal
Active IR goggles with no magnification = legal
Passive IR goggles with magnification = legal
Passive IR goggles with magnification and an IR illuminator = legal
Passive IR googles with no magnification = legal
Passive IR goggles with no magnification and an IR illuminator = legal

freonr22
02-07-2012, 11:04 PM
You can use a regular scope and a separate illuminator..just not for hunting at night.. I think

motorhead
02-07-2012, 11:11 PM
pretty hard to find a weapon sight with no magnification.

m4coyotehunter
02-08-2012, 6:49 AM
I am currently talking with the top law enforcement people at the CA DFG about this exact thing. I am trying to clarify the legality of using a weapons mounted intensified scope with no IR illumination for coyote hunting. A couple quick points:

1. The laws that cover this were written by monkeys. The sentence structure and use of punctuation are so poor, a 4th grader could do better.

2. The DFG is confused. I am receiving some level of cooperation. But, they are not the sharpest tools in the shed. Many of my answers so far show they do not understand the law, basic english, or current night vision technology. They also don't care very much.

There are two sections in the legal code that deal with this subject.

1. 2005(c) It is unlawful to use or possess at any time any infrared or similar light used in connection with an electronic viewing device or any night vision equipment, optical devices, including, but not limited to, binoculars or scopes, that use light-amplifying circuits that are electrical or battery powered, to assist in the taking of birds, mammals, amphibians, or fish.

The text clearly states that IR light is what is illegal. "Used in connection with" is the key term. It does not make night vision illegal. This is found in the section dealing with lights.

X is illegal used in connection with Y.

X = IR lights
Y = List of various items

The phrase "including, but not limited to, binoculars or scopes, that use light-amplifying circuits that are electrical or battery powered.." modifies the term "optical devices". These optical devices are not illegal in and of themselves. They are only illegal when used with an IR light.

This is in the section concerning "lights".


2. Penal Code 468. As used in this section, sniperscope means any attachment, device or similar contrivance designed for or adaptable to use on a firearm which, through the use of a projected infrared light source and electronic telescope, enables the operator thereof to visually determine and locate the presence of objects during the nighttime.

In the above wording, sniperscope or similar contrivance is defined as a device that uses PROJECTED INFRARED LIGHT AND AN ELECTRONIC TELESCOPE. A modern image intensified scope does not project infrared light. Therefore, it is not limited by this section for Varmint hunting.

Other points:

1. Magnification by itself has no bearing on legality. It only makes a difference if projected IR light is present.
2. A PVS14 would be illegal because it has an IR reading light.
3. No lasers can be used on the weapon for targeting because they are a light. Lights can't be attached to a gun.

It is all about IR light in both sections. No projected IR light and the device is legal. My goal is to get it in writing that a scope similar to

http://www.tnvc.com/shop/d-740-4x-gen3-pinnacle-night-vision-rifle-scope/

without an IR light source is legal. Why? Because one poster summed it up perfectly. Don't expect the average DFG agent to have a clue.

HBrebel
02-08-2012, 7:38 AM
what is the justification for this law? Only military or LE GET TO HAVE THE POWER OF NIGHT VISION?

vandal
02-08-2012, 7:58 AM
My logical but non-lawyerly read of 2005(c) says this restriction is only about hunting. "It is unlawful to use [x or y] to assist in the taking of birds, mammals, amphibians, or fish."

The main question on PC 468 is "is an aimpoint an electronic telescope?"

Regardless, from my reading a head-mounted monocular and IR laser is preferable to a weapons mount for fighting (but for hunting I guess it's a different story.)

m4coyotehunter
02-08-2012, 8:16 AM
Penal code 468 is a general law.
FCG 2005 covers the use of lights for hunting.

California sucks bad enough already. It is even worse when government agencies enforce things that the law does not stipulate.

If the device does not contain or project IR light, it is legal according to the way the laws are (poorly) written. 468 only matters for your Aimpoint if it were to project IR light. It doesn't. So, you are okay.

mdimeo
02-08-2012, 8:26 AM
One of the two original questions was 'what about NVG NOT attached to a weapon?'

And I believe the answer is 'no regulation for ownership or use'.

Hmm. I read the PC three times before daring to question anything Librarian wrote, but I'd be careful about active NVG adaptable for attachment to a firearm. If it's got rail mounts, or even a threaded bipod mount, I'd stay away even if it wasn't mounted to a rifle.

motorhead
02-08-2012, 9:49 AM
the confusion arises, i think, from the term "electronic telescope". "tele" INFERS magnification, although they may have been trying to say something else.
the law was passed to outlaw gen 0 devices, like the thrush guns on man from uncle. that'll give you an idea of how old this is. passive tech was NOT available to civilians at the time.
i tested my an/pvs-4 last night, just came in yesterday. didn't see any black zepplins in my a.o., although they may have been grounded due to the rain.

m4coyotehunter
02-08-2012, 10:15 AM
There should not be confusion. The phrase is "PROJECTED INFRARED LIGHT AND AN ELECTRONIC TELESCOPE".

You need to meet both conditions to be a sniperscope. This phrase is the defines what a sniperscope is in the text.

If it were not so, any magnified scope with a battery powered reticle would be considered a so-called sniperscope because they contain magnification that helps you see in the dark and electronics.

It has to have IR light. If the text said "OR" instead of "AND", it would mean something entirely different.

gun toting monkeyboy
02-08-2012, 10:39 AM
1. The laws that cover this were written by monkeys.


For the record, I had NOTHING to do with writing this law...

-Mb

spiderpigs
02-08-2012, 10:52 AM
I had no idea there were nightvision laws at all. Why in the world would there be such a thing.

RivCoFireman
02-08-2012, 11:20 AM
2. A PVS14 would be illegal because it has an IR reading light.



You're speaking of DFG regs only correct? My PVS-14 has a 1x magnification, which is ZERO magnification. I can have and shoot it with my EOTech right?

m4coyotehunter
02-08-2012, 11:24 AM
RivCo, 2005c only effects hunting. For hunting 2005c bans the use of this device because it contains an IR light. Your PVS14 has a small IR light for reading maps that makes it illegal for hunting. It falls under the

infrared or similar light used in connection with an electronic viewing device

portion of 2005c.

For general use

Penal Code 468. As used in this section, sniperscope means any attachment, device or similar contrivance designed for or adaptable to use on a firearm which, through the use of a projected infrared light source and electronic telescope, enables the operator thereof to visually determine and locate the presence of objects during the nighttime.

Even here, the gun mounted scope has to have BOTH projected IR light + be an electronic telescope. "AND" is the key term. If it were "OR", there would be problems. You bring up a good point, if you put a 3x lens on a PVS14 and then mounted it to your rifle, it would be considered a sniperscope by this law. It would have IR + be a telescope. I had not thought of that.

A PVS14 that had the IR reading light (without magnification) on your head or gun would not appear to be illegal under 468.

P.S. My head hurts. I hate this state.

spiderpigs
02-08-2012, 11:36 AM
RivCo, 2005c only effects hunting. For hunting 2005c bans the use of this device because it contains an IR light. Your PVS14 has a small IR light for reading maps that makes it illegal for hunting. It falls under the

infrared or similar light used in connection with an electronic viewing device

portion of 2005c.

For general use

Penal Code 468. As used in this section, sniperscope means any attachment, device or similar contrivance designed for or adaptable to use on a firearm which, through the use of a projected infrared light source and electronic telescope, enables the operator thereof to visually determine and locate the presence of objects during the nighttime.

Even here, the gun mounted scope has to have BOTH projected IR light + be an electronic telescope. "AND" is the key term. If it were "OR", there would be problems. You bring up a good point, if you put a 3x lens on a PVS14 and then mounted it to your rifle, it would be considered a sniperscope by this law. It would have IR + be a telescope. I had not thought of that.

A PVS14 that had the IR reading light (without magnification) on your head or gun would not appear to be illegal under 468.

P.S. My head hurts. I hate this state.

so like....why do these laws exist and how is a scope able to be regulated at all?

gun toting monkeyboy
02-08-2012, 11:43 AM
Actually, the way it is written, it appears that the magnification has to be part of the electronic scope. Using a magnifier that is separate from the night vision device does not appear to be covered by the law the way it is written.

-Mb

SFgiants105
02-08-2012, 11:56 AM
what is the justification for this law? Only military or LE GET TO HAVE THE POWER OF NIGHT VISION?

Probably has more to do with the same reason you aren't allowed to hunt with an m2 mounted on an ATV. It's just unfair.
:D

gun toting monkeyboy
02-08-2012, 12:38 PM
That, and you aren't supposed to hunt game animals for more than 1/2 hour before/after sunup or sundown. If you have a NV scope, it is too easy for people to say that they were "only hunting coyotes" or some other BS line like that during game season. Remember, hunting has to be sporting. It can't be a non-stop, 24-hour a day pressure on game animals. We have a roughly 10% success rate with deer here in San Diego. Imagine what that would drop to if we had a couple of years where people could hunt with NV.

Jack L
02-09-2012, 8:15 AM
I am currently talking with the top law enforcement people at the CA DFG about this exact thing. I am trying to clarify the legality of using a weapons mounted intensified scope with no IR illumination for coyote hunting. A couple quick points:

1. The laws that cover this were written by monkeys. The sentence structure and use of punctuation are so poor, a 4th grader could do better.

2. The DFG is confused. I am receiving some level of cooperation. But, they are not the sharpest tools in the shed. Many of my answers so far show they do not understand the law, basic english, or current night vision technology. They also don't care very much.

There are two sections in the legal code that deal with this subject.

1. 2005(c) It is unlawful to use or possess at any time any infrared or similar light used in connection with an electronic viewing device or any night vision equipment, optical devices, including, but not limited to, binoculars or scopes, that use light-amplifying circuits that are electrical or battery powered, to assist in the taking of birds, mammals, amphibians, or fish.

The text clearly states that IR light is what is illegal. "Used in connection with" is the key term. It does not make night vision illegal. This is found in the section dealing with lights.

X is illegal used in connection with Y.

X = IR lights
Y = List of various items

The phrase "including, but not limited to, binoculars or scopes, that use light-amplifying circuits that are electrical or battery powered.." modifies the term "optical devices". These optical devices are not illegal in and of themselves. They are only illegal when used with an IR light.

This is in the section concerning "lights".


2. Penal Code 468. As used in this section, sniperscope means any attachment, device or similar contrivance designed for or adaptable to use on a firearm which, through the use of a projected infrared light source and electronic telescope, enables the operator thereof to visually determine and locate the presence of objects during the nighttime.

In the above wording, sniperscope or similar contrivance is defined as a device that uses PROJECTED INFRARED LIGHT AND AN ELECTRONIC TELESCOPE. A modern image intensified scope does not project infrared light. Therefore, it is not limited by this section for Varmint hunting.

Other points:

1. Magnification by itself has no bearing on legality. It only makes a difference if projected IR light is present.
2. A PVS14 would be illegal because it has an IR reading light.
3. No lasers can be used on the weapon for targeting because they are a light. Lights can't be attached to a gun.

It is all about IR light in both sections. No projected IR light and the device is legal. My goal is to get it in writing that a scope similar to

http://www.tnvc.com/shop/d-740-4x-gen3-pinnacle-night-vision-rifle-scope/

without an IR light source is legal. Why? Because one poster summed it up perfectly. Don't expect the average DFG agent to have a clue.

If these folks are confused, just think what a Ranger or LEO would do if they caught you with one mounted. They would no doubt have zero clue.

m4coyotehunter
02-09-2012, 9:35 AM
My interest is for coyote hunting. I am trying to get a statement in writing from DFG right now clarifying this. I fully expect the officer in the field that stops me to be clueless. Heck, the top DFG people I am dealing with are clueless.

I am amazed at the complete lack of reading skills.

X is illegal used in connection with Y.

X = IR lights
Y = List of various items

They think the list of various items are illegal. A 9th grade English class and some sentence diagramming would show them otherwise. Another hint is that it is in the section related to the use of LIGHTS!

spiderpigs
02-09-2012, 10:13 AM
That, and you aren't supposed to hunt game animals for more than 1/2 hour before/after sunup or sundown. If you have a NV scope, it is too easy for people to say that they were "only hunting coyotes" or some other BS line like that during game season. Remember, hunting has to be sporting. It can't be a non-stop, 24-hour a day pressure on game animals. We have a roughly 10% success rate with deer here in San Diego. Imagine what that would drop to if we had a couple of years where people could hunt with NV.

are you being serious?

Saym14
02-09-2012, 12:08 PM
One of the two original questions was 'what about NVG NOT attached to a weapon?'

And I believe the answer is 'no regulation for ownership or use'.

unless he attaches it to or adapts it to be attachable to his rifle?

AvyDriver
02-09-2012, 12:33 PM
Subscribed


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

alfred1222
02-09-2012, 12:49 PM
OK, so a few questions. lets say i have a night vision scope with no IR, and 3x magnification. and than i have an IR illuminator seperate from the scope. is that legal? and just to be clear, what product can we actually own in california?? anyone have a link?

gun toting monkeyboy
02-09-2012, 1:08 PM
are you being serious?

What part doesn't seem serious?
:confused:

TempleKnight
02-09-2012, 3:08 PM
I had no idea there were nightvision laws at all. Why in the world would there be such a thing.

For the same reason we can't have suppressors; so THRUSH agents can't sneak up on the Man from U.N.C.L.E.

Librarian
02-09-2012, 3:45 PM
unless he attaches it to or adapts it to be attachable to his rifle?
But that would no longer be 'not attached'.

That's like saying "If you're not speeding, you probably will not be cited for speeding" and getting back "Unless you're speeding, right?"

Quiet
02-10-2012, 2:42 AM
OK, so a few questions. lets say i have a night vision scope with no IR, and 3x magnification. and than i have an IR illuminator seperate from the scope. is that legal? and just to be clear, what product can we actually own in california?? anyone have a link?

So, you have a passive IR scope with magnification, which is legal.
But, when you add an IR illuminator to the mix, than that combination (passive IR scope with magnification + IR illuminator) makes it illegal.

Summary...
Active IR scope with magnification = illegal
Active IR scope with no magnification = legal
Passive IR scope with magnification = legal
Passive IR scope with magnification and an IR illuminator = illegal
Passive IR scope with no magnifcation = legal
Passive IR scope with no magnification and an IR illuminator = legal
Active IR goggles with magnification = legal
Active IR goggles with no magnification = legal
Passive IR goggles with magnification = legal
Passive IR goggles with magnification and an IR illuminator = legal
Passive IR googles with no magnification = legal
Passive IR goggles with no magnification and an IR illuminator = legal

I keep re-posting this summary, because that's what I've learned when selling lasers & night vision during the late-90s. This was pretty much what the DA's Office in Los Angeles, Orange, Riverside and San Bernardino Counties were going by. The night vision law has not changed since it was created, so the summary should still apply unless the DA's Office have changed how they determine what a "sniperscope" is. Also, this has nothing to do with hunting, it's about mere possession.

m4coyotehunter
02-10-2012, 4:36 AM
Quiet, your list is not accurate for hunting. There are two applicable laws. One general set and one hunting set.

IR is an instant illegal activity if used with night vision regardless of magnification for hunting. In addition, the passive/active comments are not really valid for either. The thing that makes a scope active or passive is the projection of IR radiation. And, there is no such thing as an "IR" scope. There are intensified scopes.

Librarian
02-10-2012, 10:19 AM
Also, this has nothing to do with hunting, it's about mere possession.

Quiet, your list is not accurate for hunting.


I think he knows that, and 'possession' was the topic as introduced.

But you are correct about hunting: F&G 2005 2005. (a) Except as otherwise authorized by this section, it is
unlawful to use an artificial light to assist in the taking of game
birds, game mammals, or game fish, except that this section shall not
apply to sport fishing in ocean waters or other waters where night
fishing is permitted if the lights are not used on or as part of the
fishing tackle, commercial fishing, nor to the taking of mammals, the
taking of which is governed by Article 2 (commencing with Section
4180) of Chapter 3 of Part 3 of Division 4.
(b) It is unlawful for any person, or one or more persons, to
throw or cast the rays of any spotlight, headlight, or other
artificial light on any highway or in any field, woodland, or forest
where game mammals, fur-bearing mammals, or nongame mammals are
commonly found, or upon any game mammal, fur-bearing mammal, or
nongame mammal, while having in his or her possession or under his or
her control any firearm or weapon with which that mammal could be
killed, even though the mammal is not killed, injured, shot at, or
otherwise pursued.
(c) It is unlawful to use or possess at any time any infrared or
similar light used in connection with an electronic viewing device or
any night vision equipment, optical devices, including, but not
limited to, binoculars or scopes, that use light-amplifying circuits
that are electrical or battery powered, to assist in the taking of
birds, mammals, amphibians, or fish.
(d) The provisions of this section do not apply to any of the
following:
(1) The use of a hand-held flashlight no larger, nor emitting more
light, than a two-cell, three-volt flashlight, provided that light
is not affixed in any way to a weapon, or to the use of a lamp or
lantern that does not cast a directional beam of light.
(2) Headlights of a motor vehicle operated in a usual manner where
there is no attempt or intent to locate a game mammal, fur-bearing
mammal, or nongame mammal.
(3) To the owner, or his or her employee, of land devoted to the
agricultural industry while on that land, or land controlled by such
an owner and in connection with the agricultural industry.
(4) To those other uses as the commission may authorize by
regulation.
(e) A person shall not be arrested for violation of this section
except by a peace officer.