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gun toting monkeyboy
02-06-2012, 1:18 PM
Hey there. I have spent the past hour trying to get the information I need through the search function, and I can't seem to find it.

Does anybody have a link to the thread on making an AOW a la Frankin Arms? I have an 80% lower, and I am considering it, as I seem to recall that there was a ruling from the ATF stating that AOWs over a certain length didn't require all the regular ATF tax hoops to jump through. Am I remembering correctly? Or am I mixing things up somewhere. Any help would be appreciated.

-Mb

winnre
02-06-2012, 2:05 PM
AOWs require hopping.

gun toting monkeyboy
02-06-2012, 2:30 PM
Bugger.

Oh well. Maybe later on then. Do the Franklin Arms ones require that as well? I don't recall seeing anything on them needing that at Turner's, where they sell them.

winnre
02-06-2012, 2:34 PM
Bugger.

Oh well. Maybe later on then. Do the Franklin Arms ones require that as well? I don't recall seeing anything on them needing that at Turner's, where they sell them.

Turner's does not sell AOWs. Are we talking about the same thing? If you want to make a pistol out of your lower then it is a pistol, not an AOW. There are several AOW firearms out there, care to be more specific? And if you make your own prepare for a $200 tax stamp as opposed to buying from a maker and get only a $5 tax stamp.

ke6guj
02-06-2012, 2:37 PM
Bugger.

Oh well. Maybe later on then. Do the Franklin Arms ones require that as well? I don't recall seeing anything on them needing that at Turner's, where they sell them.

that is because the Franklin Arms units are not AOWs. Therefore they do not require the NFA hoops be jumped through.

gun toting monkeyboy
02-06-2012, 3:16 PM
Ok, that is what I am looking for. What are the requirements to set up a firearm like theirs without triggering the AOW problems then?

EBR Works
02-06-2012, 3:19 PM
Greater than 26" OAL with a forward grip would make it a non-AOW, other.

Here's the ATF letter:

http://www.franklinarmory.com/XO-26_Letter__c_.pdf

gun toting monkeyboy
02-06-2012, 4:51 PM
That is what I was looking for. So it is legal to put a VFG on a home-built lower provided that the overall length is greater that 26", correct? And with a bullet button and a 10 round magazine, it won't trigger any funky laws here in California? Does this preclude it from turning back into a pistol at some later time?

-Mb

EBR Works
02-06-2012, 5:26 PM
That is what I was looking for. So it is legal to put a VFG on a home-built lower provided that the overall length is greater that 26", correct? And with a bullet button and a 10 round magazine, it won't trigger any funky laws here in California? Does this preclude it from turning back into a pistol at some later time?

-Mb

It still is a pistol in California. The bullet button will keep you Cali compliant.

morrcarr67
02-06-2012, 5:28 PM
That is what I was looking for. So it is legal to put a VFG on a home-built lower provided that the overall length is greater that 26", correct? And with a bullet button and a 10 round magazine, it won't trigger any funky laws here in California? Does this preclude it from turning back into a pistol at some later time?

-Mb

And, the barrel needs to be less than 16".

gun toting monkeyboy
02-06-2012, 5:34 PM
There is no California law that says you can't have a forward vertical grip? Sorry for the seemingly redundant questions, but I want to make sure I have all the bases covered before I try this.

EBR Works
02-06-2012, 5:41 PM
The bullet button negates presence of the VFG as an evil feature.

ke6guj
02-06-2012, 5:42 PM
There is no California law that says you can't have a forward vertical grip? Sorry for the seemingly redundant questions, but I want to make sure I have all the bases covered before I try this.CA law only regulates VFGs on pistols if it is a semi-automatic pistol with a detachable magazine.

gun toting monkeyboy
02-06-2012, 8:10 PM
(grin) Mine measured 26.5 inches. Score. Something new to play with at the range.

morrcarr67
02-07-2012, 5:35 PM
(grin) Mine measured 26.5 inches. Score. Something new to play with at the range.

:useless:

Just saying :rolleyes:

gun toting monkeyboy
02-07-2012, 10:06 PM
Sorry for the crappy cellphone picture. This is the QD lower that I built the other weekend. The finish is the hard anodized natural from A to Z. I'm also trying out the Magpul MOE K grip to see how it works.

http://i864.photobucket.com/albums/ab208/gun_toting_monkeyboy/ARpistol2.jpg

-Mb

morrcarr67
02-08-2012, 6:33 AM
Sorry for the crappy cellphone picture. This is the QD lower that I built the other weekend. The finish is the hard anodized natural from A to Z. I'm also trying out the Magpul MOE K grip to see how it works.

http://i864.photobucket.com/albums/ab208/gun_toting_monkeyboy/ARpistol2.jpg

-Mb

Very Nice

gun toting monkeyboy
02-08-2012, 11:47 AM
Thanks. This upper gets rebuilt and tinkered with more than any other AR that I own. There are probably half a dozen posts on here with pictures of it in various states of evolution. I am curious to see what happens now with the added VFG. I figure this is about as close as I am ever likely to get to an SBR in this state. The one problem I see in the future is when the bullet button goes away. Because once it does, won't I run into all of the things that would make this illegal on any other pistol with a detachable magazine? e.g. The magazine outside of the pistol grip, the threaded barrel, the VFG, etc... It would really suck if we won that battle, and then ended up having to get rid of a lot of the features that make AR pistols so attractive to us.

-Mb

ke6guj
02-08-2012, 1:37 PM
Thanks. This upper gets rebuilt and tinkered with more than any other AR that I own. There are probably half a dozen posts on here with pictures of it in various states of evolution. I am curious to see what happens now with the added VFG. I figure this is about as close as I am ever likely to get to an SBR in this state. The one problem I see in the future is when the bullet button goes away. Because once it does, won't I run into all of the things that would make this illegal on any other pistol with a detachable magazine? e.g. The magazine outside of the pistol grip, the threaded barrel, the VFG, etc... It would really suck if we won that battle, and then ended up having to get rid of a lot of the features that make AR pistols so attractive to us.

-Mb
what do you mean by " the bulllet button goes away"? do you mean that the AW laws are overturned and you don't "need" to use a maglock anymore? If so, then why would anything you mentioned after that be illegal?

gun toting monkeyboy
02-08-2012, 1:47 PM
what do you mean by " the bulllet button goes away"? do you mean that the AW laws are overturned and you don't "need" to use a maglock anymore? If so, then why would anything you mentioned after that be illegal?

Because the AW law may or may not go away in the future. But depending on how it is gotten rid of, we may still be stuck with some of the other restrictions that already existed prior to it. IIRC, threaded barrels were a no-no here in CA before the AW ban. SO even if the ban is given a cement kimono and dumped into the San Francisco Bay but the CGF legal team, the prior laws may still be in place. And if that is the case, I may not be able to lose the BB and keep the threaded barrel and VFG.

-Mb

ke6guj
02-08-2012, 1:54 PM
you recall incorrectly. threaded pistol barrels, VFGs, detachable mag outside the grip, etc, were never regulated per state law before the CA AW feature laws were implemented.

chillincody
02-08-2012, 2:06 PM
Sorry for the crappy cellphone picture. This is the QD lower that I built the other weekend. The finish is the hard anodized natural from A to Z. I'm also trying out the Magpul MOE K grip to see how it works.

http://i864.photobucket.com/albums/ab208/gun_toting_monkeyboy/ARpistol2.jpg

-Mb

so wait this is still considered a pistol thought it had to be oal 6"- 16" to be a pistol ??

gun toting monkeyboy
02-08-2012, 2:08 PM
you recall incorrectly. threaded pistol barrels, VFGs, detachable mag outside the grip, etc, were never regulated per state law before the CA AW feature laws were implemented.

That is entirely possible. I just remember a friend getting busted for having a threaded Makarov barrel back in college in the early 1990s. No idea what the actual charges were, or what happened long term.

-Mb

mdimeo
02-08-2012, 2:12 PM
... a lot of the features that make AR pistols so attractive to us.

What *are* those features, anyway? I'm not being a wiseass; I just don't know what people see in them. They seem like a worst-of-both-worlds kinda deal.

gun toting monkeyboy
02-08-2012, 2:51 PM
What *are* those features, anyway? I'm not being a wiseass; I just don't know what people see in them. They seem like a worst-of-both-worlds kinda deal.

Short barrel, flash hider, general cool factor. I know they aren't all that useful, but they are a lot of fun. :D

morrcarr67
02-09-2012, 10:07 AM
so wait this is still considered a pistol thought it had to be oal 6"- 16" to be a pistol ??

Yes it is under CA law. Under Federal Law it is classified as a Title 1 Firearm.

Nope, under your thinking this would not be a pistol

http://www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore/SmWesson2/upload/images/firearms/zoom_lg/109380_01_lg.jpg

It's OAL is only 5.25". What would you call this?

gvazquez
02-22-2013, 9:15 PM
This was the only thread I could find in regards to creating an AOW/Pistol/Other from an 80% receiver, and I have some questions now that I am starting my 80% build soon.

If I understand this correctly, according to the ATF, you can build an AR pistol with a vertical grip as long as the minimum overall length is at least 26". Because it is no longer concealable, it is not classified as a pistol by the ATF.

However, when I was looking at the Franklin Armory website I noticed they refer to California 12001 PC which still defines this configuration as a pistol even though ATF states that it is NOT a pistol or an AOW. Because California would consider this configuration a "pistol" under 12001 PC, does that mean that it would void the legality of the vertical grip since pistols cannot have a vertical grip?


From Franklin Armory:
As many industry insiders are aware, the addition of a secondary vertical grip to a pistol creates a class of firearm called an “AOW,” or any other weapon and requires an NFA tax stamp. Franklin Armory management made the argument to ATF that the XO-26 configuration above is not readily concealable and therefore should not be classified as an AOW even though it has a secondary grip. ATF agreed.

On March 14, 2011, the Chief of The Firearms Technology Branch of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives, authorized the sale of the above configuration without the need for any NFA permits! What is shocking is that it was also defined as a non-pistol. The 4473 would only need to be filled out with “other” checked off. Franklin Armory is proud to be the first company in the nation to be able to shepherd this project into fruition.

California residents will find that 12001 PC will still define this firearm as a pistol, but thankfully there is not an analog to the AOW classification in state law. California buyers will have to be at least 21 years of age, and the DROS form will require one to check “Pistol.”

And this is what California Says:

CA 12001 PC
12001. (a)(1) As used in this title, the terms "pistol," "revolver," and "firearm capable of being concealed upon the person" shall apply to and include any device designed to be used as a weapon, from which is expelled a projectile by the force of any explosion, or other form of combustion, and that has a barrel less than 16 inches in length. These terms also include any device that has a barrel 16 inches or more in length which is designed to be interchanged with a barrel less than 16 inches in length. (2) As used in this title, the term "handgun" means any "pistol," "revolver," or "firearm capable of being concealed upon the person." (b) As used in this title, "firearm" means any device, designed to be used as a weapon, from which is expelled through a barrel a projectile by the force of any explosion or other form of combustion. (c) As used in Sections 12021, 12021.1, 12070, 12071, 12072, 12073, 12078, 12101, and 12801 of this code, and Sections 8100, 8101, and 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code, the term "firearm" includes the frame or receiver of the weapon. (d) For the purposes of Sections 12025 and 12031, the term "firearm" also shall include any rocket, rocket propelled projectile launcher, or similar device containing any explosive or incendiary material whether or not the device is designed for emergency or distress signaling purposes. (e) For purposes of Sections 12070, 12071, and paragraph (8) of subdivision (a), and subdivisions (b), (c), (d), and (f) of Section 12072, the term "firearm" does not include an unloaded firearm that is defined as an "antique firearm" in Section 921(a)(16) of Title 18 of the United States Code. (f) Nothing shall prevent a device defined as a "handgun," "pistol," "revolver," or "firearm capable of being concealed upon the person" from also being found to be a short-barreled shotgun or a short-barreled rifle, as defined in Section

So looking at the California law, is this configuration still good to go since the ATF has deemed it incapable of being concealed since the minimum is 26"?

My plan (if legal) is to build an 80% receiver into a pistol with a minimum overall length of 26" and attaching a vertical grip like the above poster has done. In the end it should be neither an AOW or Pistol based on the letter.

ke6guj
02-22-2013, 11:25 PM
federal pistol definitions are separate from CA pistol definitions. As a firearm over 26" OAL, the feds have stated that it is not a pistol.

however, CA law says that if it has a barrel <16" that it is considered a pistol. CA does not care if the feds think it is a pistol or not, you still have to comply with CA's pistol regs.

So, in the end, Franklin Armory's firearm is not a federally defined pistol, is not an illegal AOW, and is considered an Other, so it can have a VFG an not violate federal law. Then, we look at CA law, CA considers it a pistol, so the pistol AW regs apply. But with a magazine lock, it can have the CA evil features and can therefore have a VFG without violating CA law.

freetelecon
03-20-2013, 11:17 PM
So no bullet button is OK? Or what I really want to know are pre2000 hicap mags OK?

ke6guj
03-21-2013, 7:14 AM
So no bullet button is OK? Or what I really want to know are pre2000 hicap mags OK?
state AW regs still apply to semi-auto firearms that happen to be federally registered as an AOW.