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Steyr_223
03-26-2007, 3:30 PM
Hello all,

Working on AR build #2, with Cali legal evil feature. Number 1 is a U-15 with no evil features. For #2 I was going to do a Bullet-Button. However, my local AR expert says it's 1) legally not safe as U-15/MMG or a lock device that requires a allen wrench 2) is harder to install and may require modes to make work.

On the Calguns Shoot&Q thread there was a report of the RO hassling a shooter with a Bullet-Button setup.

http://calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=50777&page=19

"The RO asked me twice not to remove the mag even though I have a Bullet-Button release installed. Once while Xeno was there, who explained why it was not a detachable mag to the RO (thank you) and he seemed to agree. The second time he (RO) came back and said, " If you can take the mag out it's detachable and for your own legal safety please don't do that again."

I don't see the Prince50 Mag-Lock Kit as much different. Or should I use that old Sporting Conversions mag lock I have sitting since the dawn off the OLL movement?

I want to stay legal with my Cali evil featured AR..Bill, Xeno, Ted or anyone can you help a Calgunner out?


Thanks,

S

grammaton76
03-26-2007, 3:39 PM
However, my local AR expert says it's 1) legally not safe as U-15/MMG or a lock device that requires a allen wrench 2) is harder to install and may require modes to make work.

I personally feel it's LEGALLY as safe, but your "hassle potential" is far higher. In short, you're more likely to be a test case with a bullet button.

If that worries you a lot, then stick with the Sporting Conversion kit.

I personally run MMG's and (now) a U-15, simply because I prefer 30rd mags...

xenophobe
03-26-2007, 3:41 PM
It took me all of five seconds to search and find a few threads... :|

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=47642
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=50212

Hate to do this to you but...
http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/8398/pic24bd0.jpg

Technical Ted
03-26-2007, 3:51 PM
At the Chabot Shoot-n-Q last Saturday, I was shooting my 6.8 SPC with a Prince50 Bullet Button and I was leaving the mag out during the cease fire periods. I brought two 10 rd mags and I was swapping between the two (using my handy mag release tool that's disguised as the pen for my reloading notebook!). The line safety officer never had a problem with it.

I think I may even have left a mag in the well during one cease fire, but I had the bolt open and a chamber flag.

thmpr
03-26-2007, 3:55 PM
Which range was this? I had no issues with any bay area range: Chabot, Metcalf, Los Altos and etc...

thmpr
03-26-2007, 4:00 PM
Nevermind...Chabot gave you problems? Wow..I am a bit surprised. Did you get the ROs name?

Technical Ted
03-26-2007, 4:01 PM
Nevermind...Chabot gave you problems? Wow..I am a bit surprised. Did you get the ROs name?
It was the alternate. Curtis was off that day.

Steyr_223
03-26-2007, 4:12 PM
Thanks all. Xeno, it would helped if I spelled bullet right when I searched..

"It was the alternate. Curtis was off that day"

Oh that explains it..

So install in a BB is no less work then say a Prince50?

Technical Ted
03-26-2007, 4:27 PM
So install in a BB is no less work then say a Prince50?
Basically: "It's so easy, a caveman can do it". Prince50's instructions are pretty straight forward if you can't figure out installation just by looking at the parts.

One member has fabricated special tools where only a screw driver is really necessary.

Some fitting with a file may be required, but only if you feel hesitant about using a rubber mallet to install the soft aluminum button replacement in the magazine release button hole.

TMC
03-26-2007, 5:00 PM
At the Chabot Shoot-n-Q last Saturday, I was shooting my 6.8 SPC with a Prince50 Bullet Button and I was leaving the mag out during the cease fire periods. I brought two 10 rd mags and I was swapping between the two (using my handy mag release tool that's disguised as the pen for my reloading notebook!). The line safety officer never had a problem with it.

I think I may even have left a mag in the well during one cease fire, but I had the bolt open and a chamber flag.

I don't think this was read correctly

Steyr_223
03-26-2007, 5:14 PM
In the Calgun's Shoot&Q thread, the Calgunner "peepshowal" says he was hassled by the the RO last Saturday. Even my local AR expert is having 2nd thoughts about BB vs Prince50 /Shooting conversions..Many more "jurors" may agree that a allen wrench is a tool vs a bullet tip.

After reading and search the other threads on the bullet button issue an update to the Calguns OLL FAQ is in order. I will also print out and carry the SB23 wording as sited by the others..

Thanks for everyones help..

peepshowal
03-26-2007, 5:38 PM
In the Calgun's Shoot&Q thread, the Calgunner "peepshowal" says he was hassled by the the RO last Saturday.

I would say hassled is too strong of a word, but he did ask me not to do that again(remove magazine) even after explanations from Xenophobe and myself about Bullet-Button. He seemed concerned that I would get in trouble especially since my daughter was shooting as well. He also told me that anyone under 18 cannot shoot a detachable magazine rifle. The range rules say children over 8 with parents can shoot rifles. The whole bullet-button idea with children present did not sit well with him. This may be why those of you with Bullet-Buttons and no children present received no attention.

M. Sage
03-26-2007, 5:41 PM
It was the alternate. Curtis was off that day.

There were two different ROs that day. One was a guy I don't remember seeing there before, if I have, it wasn't much. The one who came out later in the afternoon's an old hand. I'd guess it was the first one where the problem was.

Really, let's not look to Range Officers for legal advice, huh? :p

Ok, I wrote that before reading Peepshowal's post above... That HAD to be the RO that was there earlier.

Fjold
03-26-2007, 5:48 PM
It's all because there are too many people in this world with less than an adequate number of normally functioning brain cells.

Technical Ted
03-26-2007, 6:30 PM
There were two different ROs that day. One was a guy I don't remember seeing there before, if I have, it wasn't much.
I was on the line from 10:30AM until 4:30PM. Never had a problem. Neither RO was Curtis.

383green
03-26-2007, 9:00 PM
He also told me that anyone under 18 cannot shoot a detachable magazine rifle.


It sounds to me like this RO doesn't understand CA's gun laws too well. If the RO(s) on duty want you to leave the mag in during range breaks then do as they say (of course, lock the bolt open or prop it open with something, too!), but the opinion of one person who clearly doesn't understand CA's gun laws doesn't make it reasonable to worry about the legality of the bullet button style modification.

Many more "jurors" may agree that a allen wrench is a tool vs a bullet tip.

The law says that a bullet tip is a tool, and the armchair jurors' opinions don't matter. However, if you just want to shoot without getting hassled by the amateur lawyers, then use an Allen wrench to push your bullet button. ;)

Hey, Ted, why doesn't your post count increment past 666?

blacklisted
03-26-2007, 9:06 PM
I would say hassled is too strong of a word, but he did ask me not to do that again(remove magazine) even after explanations from Xenophobe and myself about Bullet-Button. He seemed concerned that I would get in trouble especially since my daughter was shooting as well. He also told me that anyone under 18 cannot shoot a detachable magazine rifle. The range rules say children over 8 with parents can shoot rifles. The whole bullet-button idea with children present did not sit well with him. This may be why those of you with Bullet-Buttons and no children present received no attention.

What he was thinking of is the fact that you can not let a minor shoot your registered assault weapon. He probably thought that an open magwell = assault weapon.

blkA4alb
03-26-2007, 9:11 PM
Hey, Ted, why doesn't your post count increment past 666?

Ted is special like that ;) .

ghost
03-26-2007, 9:20 PM
Ted is special like that ;) .


because he`s the devil! lmao:D

whats up blka4alb? sweet scope!

blkA4alb
03-26-2007, 9:23 PM
because he`s the devil! lmao:D

whats up blka4alb? sweet scope!

Same old same old, it is isn't it? :D

Hunter
03-26-2007, 9:24 PM
... He also told me that anyone under 18 cannot shoot a detachable magazine rifle....


What would this RO do with kids shooting MMG grips and detachable mags??? Nothing illegal or prohibited.

I took my preteen son to the range last week. Gave him the OLL with a MMG/A2 stock. I supplied him a large stack of preloaded 30rnd mags, and then I turned him loose on the tin can range. I stood by watching and loading his empty mags for him:D

ROs, like this guy, really need to understand the laws properly if they want to enforce the laws!

hoffmang
03-26-2007, 9:31 PM
I do believe that when Mr. Bill has a few more moments and less pending products to ship, we will all get to bask in the glory of updates to the memos and FAQs.

-Gene

Steyr_223
03-27-2007, 12:40 PM
Thanks all! I just placed an order for a Prince50 with Ten Percent.

S

thmpr
03-27-2007, 12:50 PM
I am happy with the BB setup... It was the best next thing to have besides the MM and U15 stock.


Shot at all Santa Clara range with no issues as well as SAC Valley and Chabot. No issues there.

royta
03-27-2007, 1:41 PM
Many more "jurors" may agree that a allen wrench is a tool vs a bullet tip.

Just like 383green said, the juror's opinions of what a tool is will will not matter one bit. Each jury member will be handed a printout of "jury instructions" letting them know what they can use to make their decision. One of those instructions will tell them they will need to go by what the law says, not by their opinion of the law, or their opinion of the meaning. The law states a bullet tip is a tool. PERIOD

grammaton76
03-27-2007, 1:54 PM
Even my local AR expert is having 2nd thoughts about BB vs Prince50 /Shooting conversions..Many more "jurors" may agree that a allen wrench is a tool vs a bullet tip.

Ya know, I'm kinda surprised that, for folks like him, and other more paranoid folks, no one's come up with a smaller one that you'd HAVE to use a very small allen wrench to trigger.

383green
03-27-2007, 2:58 PM
Ya know, I'm kinda surprised that, for folks like him, and other more paranoid folks, no one's come up with a smaller one that you'd HAVE to use a very small allen wrench to trigger.

I think that's entirely unnecessary, because the hole is small enough and the "button" is recessed far enough to make it impossible for even a baby's finger to press the button. However, if anybody wanted to reduce the hole size further just for peace of mind, I think it would be pretty easy for anybody with a lathe to turn down a bit of aluminum to be a press fit into the button hole, drill a smaller hole through its center, and then cut it off such that after pounding it into the bullet button's hole it won't quite touch the button itself. In other words, a little aluminum washer that you pound into the end of the bullet button assembly after installing it in the receiver. A dab of Birtchwood-Casey Aluminum Black could substitute for anodization.

Doing this would also make it necessary to drill out the new piece in order to unscrew the magazine catch. Since the outer shell of the bullet button is press-fit into the receiver, it's not like the bullet button is something you might swap in and out at border crossings, anyway.

artherd
03-27-2007, 10:03 PM
Even my local AR expert is having 2nd thoughts about BB vs Prince50 /Shooting conversions..Many more "jurors" may agree that a allen wrench is a tool vs a bullet tip.
Is your AR expert unable to read the Penal Code or CCR?

California DOJ Firearms Division
State of California SENATE BILL (SB) 23
Chapter 12.8
Department of Justice Regulations for Assault Weapons and Large Capacity Magazines
Article 1. General
Article 2. Definitions of Terms Used to Identify Assault Weapons
978.20 Definitions
The following definitions apply to terms used in the identification of assault weapons pursuant to Penal Code section 12276.1:
(a) "detachable magazine" means any ammunition feeding device that can be removed readily from the firearm with neither disassembly of the firearm action nor use of a tool being required. A bullet or ammunition cartridge is considered a tool. Ammunition feeding device includes any belted or linked ammunition, but does not include clips, en bloc clips, or stripper clips that load cartridges into the magazine.
***SOURCE- "Department of Justice Regulations for Assault Weapons and Large Capacity Magazines," may be cited as such and are referred to herein as "these regulations." The provisions of these regulations shall apply to assault weapons as defined in Penal Code section 12276.1 and as specified pursuant to Penal Code section 12276.5, and large capacity magazines as defined in Penal Code section 12020(c)(25). These regulations do not apply to assault weapons as defined in Penal Code section 12276.
NOTE: Authority cited: Sections 12079, 12276.5(i) and 12285, Penal Code. Reference: Sections 12020, 12079, 12276.1, 12276.5, and 12285, Penal Code.

bwiese
03-28-2007, 1:44 AM
Folks,

Jurors do not determine matters of law (i.e, is a bullet tip a tool? is it a 'detachable magazine', etc.)

They would only determine if you were/weren't guilty of having an unreg'd AW, if it got that far. For that to happen, the judge would have to first rule in spite of a lotta history & regulation on the detachable mag issue.

Steyr_223
03-28-2007, 10:26 AM
"Is your AR expert unable to read the Penal Code or CCR?"

He has and still leans towards a Prince50 or SC..However, with the inputs of the others, I plan to get a BB sometime in the future. Build 1 is U15(done), Build 2 will be a Prince50, build 3 MMG and build 4 will be BB..

BTW, thanks again Ben for the Milpitas OLL efforts back in the day..Builds 1 and 2 will be using the OLL you help get..

S

artherd
03-28-2007, 10:44 AM
"Is your AR expert unable to read the Penal Code or CCR?"

He has and still leans towards a Prince50 or SC..However, with the inputs of the others, I plan to get a BB sometime in the future. Build 1 is U15(done), Build 2 will be a Prince50, build 3 MMG and build 4 will be BB..

BTW, thanks again Ben for the Milpitas OLL efforts back in the day..Builds 1 and 2 will be using the OLL you help get..

S

Glad to have helped out! Man that brings back distant memories, thanks for being one of the first!

All PC reading asside, you still have to decide wether you feel OK doing 64MPH or would rather do 55, and I respect anyone's decision to err on the side of caution; so long as they do not preach said personal decision as law.

edwardm
03-28-2007, 2:58 PM
The regulation specifically says a bullet is a tool.

You ask the court to take judicial notice of that piece of regulation and it's a non-issue for the jury. They have to take it as fact in the properly-written jury instructions.

In the Calgun's Shoot&Q thread, the Calgunner "peepshowal" says he was hassled by the the RO last Saturday. Even my local AR expert is having 2nd thoughts about BB vs Prince50 /Shooting conversions..Many more "jurors" may agree that a allen wrench is a tool vs a bullet tip.

After reading and search the other threads on the bullet button issue an update to the Calguns OLL FAQ is in order. I will also print out and carry the SB23 wording as sited by the others..

Thanks for everyones help..

ZenMastaT
03-28-2007, 3:27 PM
Just for a bit of clarification (I'd hardly consider myself well informed on a topic as complex as this) - I was talking to a friend about this bullet button concept and how a bullet was defined as a tool by the laws quoted above. He mentioned to me that the law itself demanded magazines be removed via the usage of an "uncommon tool" which I suppose a bullet would not be, when considered in relation to a firearm.

Is there a clear answer here?

hoffmang
03-28-2007, 3:38 PM
There is nothing in the law that requires anything other than a tool:

Penal Code 12276.1. says:

(a) (1) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and any one of the following:

It does not say:

(a) (1) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has the capacity to accept an attachable or detachable magazine and any one of the following:

The phrase "Detachable Magazine" is a specific defined term:
CCR 5469.
(a) "detachable magazine" means any ammunition feeding device that can be removed readily from the firearm with neither disassembly of the firearm action nor use of a tool being required. A bullet or ammunition cartridge is considered a tool…

And the reason the term is defined that way is the SKS issue. In the 2000 Rulemaking that implemented SB-23. This is what they had to say about the SKS:

Comment

A1.12 - The SKS rifle with a detachable magazine cannot be changed without using a bullet tip as a tool, thus the regulations conflict with the specific listing of SKS rifles with detachable magazines in the Roberti-Roos Assault Weapons Control Act. DOJ has no authority to contradict existing law.

DOJ Response

The Department disagrees with the comment because any magazine that requires the use of a bullet or any other tool for its removal is a fixed magazine, not a detachable magazine. The SKS with a true detachable magazine does not require a bullet or any other tool to remove and is a controlled assault weapon under Penal Code section 12276. Identifying a bullet as a tool allows for the proper categorization of an SKS with a fixed magazine. Therefore, the SKS referred to in the comment has a fixed, not detachable magazine.
From http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/regs/fsor.pdf

383green
03-28-2007, 4:05 PM
Just for a bit of clarification (I'd hardly consider myself well informed on a topic as complex as this) - I was talking to a friend about this bullet button concept and how a bullet was defined as a tool by the laws quoted above. He mentioned to me that the law itself demanded magazines be removed via the usage of an "uncommon tool" which I suppose a bullet would not be, when considered in relation to a firearm.

Is there a clear answer here?

The clear answer is that your friend is mistaken. The word "uncommon" is not used, and the law specifically states that a bullet tip is considered to be a "tool" for purposes of magazine removal.

Surveyor
03-28-2007, 4:13 PM
The law on this is so clear that this topic is annoying. The A-holes that wrote this law spelled out in no uncertain terms the definition of detachable and what a tool is. If they had defined detachable as:
CCR 1234.
(a) "detachable magazine" means any ammunition feeding device that has a bright yellow "D" on the upper left side of said magazine and a thing that tells time on it...

then that would be the law we had to obey. All other magazines would be fine so long as they didn't have the dreaded "Yellow D". Consequently we would have products designed to follow that law (If it were real). I bet CWS and 10% would be selling mags with compliant red "D"'s on them.

They made the rules, we're just playing the game. Obviously the people who wrote the law wouldn't like the bullet button, but that's too bad.

Don't avoid the Bullet Button just because "Somebody" told you it's illegal. That's like driving 5 mph below the speed limit just because the cop next to you is. The law says you can't drive faster than the posted limits, not the slow moving cop in the next lane.

The law also says that a bullet tip is a tool.;)

Gunwriter
06-04-2012, 9:51 PM
Update:
I spoke to a person at CA DOJ on 06/01/2012 and she told me that the DOJ "has no opinion" on the legality of the new Colt 6720CA (factory installed bullet button).

taperxz
06-04-2012, 10:02 PM
Update:
I spoke to a person at CA DOJ on 06/01/2012 and she told me that the DOJ "has no opinion" on the legality of the new Colt 6720CA (factory installed bullet button).

No opinion because a fixed mag with 10 rounds or less, no matter what, does not meet the definition of a CA AW. (except as listed in roberti Roos)

They only tell you what's illegal, not legal.

dantodd
06-04-2012, 10:06 PM
Update:
I spoke to a person at CA DOJ on 06/01/2012 and she told me that the DOJ "has no opinion" on the legality of the new Colt 6720CA (factory installed bullet button).

CA DoJ no longer gives "opinions" on such things.

However; the DoJ's firearms experts admitted that bullet buttons are legal in sworn testimony in Haynie v. Pleasanton see: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=429902

NiteQwill
06-04-2012, 11:05 PM
Update:
I spoke to a person at CA DOJ on 06/01/2012 and she told me that the DOJ "has no opinion" on the legality of the new Colt 6720CA (factory installed bullet button).

This thread is over 5 years old...

motorhead
06-04-2012, 11:49 PM
yet another outbreak. the zombie apocalypse is indeed upon us.

alfred1222
06-04-2012, 11:56 PM
This thread is over 5 years old...

No sh*t... I think everyone knows that the bullet button is legal if used properly.

ARShooterCA
06-11-2012, 12:29 PM
I agree it is super important to keep your gun legal to avoid a felony or confiscation of your entire gun collection. That is why I did a major search and found a number of tools that work with a bullet button. A magnetic button has the problem that is could fall off and get lost, as well as attaching something to your gun is illegal. I found a really simple clip drop tool called a "ThumBee". You slide it on your thumb and when you push the pen into the recess of the bullet button, the magazine releases right into your hand. This is the best product I have found so far and is 100% legal because it is an external tool.

stix213
06-11-2012, 1:17 PM
I agree it is super important to keep your gun legal to avoid a felony or confiscation of your entire gun collection. That is why I did a major search and found a number of tools that work with a bullet button. A magnetic button has the problem that is could fall off and get lost, as well as attaching something to your gun is illegal. I found a really simple clip drop tool called a "ThumBee". You slide it on your thumb and when you push the pen into the recess of the bullet button, the magazine releases right into your hand. This is the best product I have found so far and is 100% legal because it is an external tool.

Welcome to Calguns.

unusedusername
06-12-2012, 12:53 PM
http://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/gallery/files/6/7/3/HolyNecroPost_759032.jpg

5 years? Is this a record?