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View Full Version : Unloaded concealed carry of long guns. legal/illegal?


longshot28
02-05-2012, 3:37 AM
So i was wondering if i can conceal carry my mossberg 500. Lets say more specificly pistol grip, 7+1, 20 inch barrel on a one point sling,under a trench coat and unloaded. I know sounds a bit weird LOL but its been bugging me that i don't have a solid answer. I saw a thread about this a while back but no one really had an answer. THANKS!!! :D

Sleighter
02-05-2012, 3:46 AM
You're right... that does sound a bit weird, especially for a first post. If you've been lurking here than you know that people usually introduce themselves before asking about concealing shotguns... good luck friend and I hope you have better intentions than it looks like.

So i was wondering if i can conceal carry my mossberg 500. Lets say more specificly pistol grip, 7+1, 20 inch barrel on a one point sling,under a trench coat and unloaded. I know sounds a bit weird LOL but its been bugging me that i don't have a solid answer. I saw a thread about this a while back but no one really had an answer. THANKS!!! :D

ShootinMedic
02-05-2012, 3:52 AM
My understanding from other similar threads is that non handguns are not legally considered concealable so it would not be "concealed" just out of sight. I believe you would be would be restricted only by things like the fed GFSZ. Im sure the open carry movement will take care of that though. I do not believe there is a requirement to have longarms in a locked case like handguns during transport.

Please correct me if im spewing FUD though!

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk

Chaos47
02-05-2012, 3:54 AM
Honestly do you think this is a good idea?


http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/Defining_Concealed

12025. (a) A person is guilty of carrying a concealed firearm when
he or she does any of the following:
(1) Carries concealed within any vehicle which is under his or her
control or direction any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable
of being concealed upon the person.
(2) Carries concealed upon his or her person any pistol, revolver,
or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person.
(3) Causes to be carried concealed within any vehicle in which he
or she is an occupant any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable
of being concealed upon the person.

12001. (a) (1) As used in this title, the terms "pistol,"
"revolver," and "firearm capable of being concealed upon the person"
shall apply to and include any device designed to be used as a
weapon, from which is expelled a projectile by the force of any
explosion, or other form of combustion, and that has a barrel less
than 16 inches in length. These terms also include any device that
has a barrel 16 inches or more in length which is designed to be
interchanged with a barrel less than 16 inches in length.
(2) As used in this title, the term "handgun" means any "pistol,"
"revolver," or "firearm capable of being concealed upon the person."

Those sections seem to cover shotguns although they don't outright say the word shotgun
I may be wrong but it looks no go to me

wildhawker
02-05-2012, 4:00 AM
25400.
(a) A person is guilty of carrying a concealed firearm when
the person does any of the following:
(1) Carries concealed within any vehicle that is under the person'
s control or direction any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable
of being concealed upon the person.
(2) Carries concealed upon the person any pistol, revolver, or
other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person.
(3) Causes to be carried concealed within any vehicle in which the
person is an occupant any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable
of being concealed upon the person.

16530.
(a) As used in this part, the terms "firearm capable of
being concealed upon the person," "pistol," and "revolver" apply to
and include any device designed to be used as a weapon, from which is
expelled a projectile by the force of any explosion, or other form
of combustion, and that has a barrel less than 16 inches in length.
These terms also include any device that has a barrel 16 inches or
more in length which is designed to be interchanged with a barrel
less than 16 inches in length.
(b) Nothing shall prevent a device defined as a "firearm capable
of being concealed upon the person," "pistol," or "revolver" from
also being found to be a short-barreled rifle or a short-barreled
shotgun.

16640.
(a) As used in this part, "handgun" means any pistol,
revolver, or firearm capable of being concealed upon the person.
(b) Nothing shall prevent a device defined as a "handgun" from
also being found to be a short-barreled rifle or a short-barreled
shotgun.

http://calgunsfoundation.org/news-blog/successful-defenses/80-just-in-time-for-christmas-yet-another-win-for-the-calguns-foundation.html

-Brandon

ShootinMedic
02-05-2012, 4:17 AM
Now im all confused. I guess I'm lucky live in a county that issues LTCs.

On a different note. This reminds me I need today donate to CGF when I get my taxes back so that everyone can have the ability to defend themselves OUTSIDE their homes if they so choose.

OleCuss
02-05-2012, 5:47 AM
I think the simple answer is that you'd best not conceal a Mossberg 500 on your person. If you are discovered you will be arrested and likely spend time in prison/jail.

Reserve concealed carry for a pistol for which you are licensed to carry concealed.

tenpercentfirearms
02-05-2012, 6:40 AM
You're right... that does sound a bit weird, especially for a first post. If you've been lurking here than you know that people usually introduce themselves before asking about concealing shotguns... good luck friend and I hope you have better intentions than it looks like.

Really? The guy has bad intentions because he asks about carrying a long gun in this way? No wonder people think guns are evil.

If a guy can't get a LTC, he might want to do what he has to do to protect himself.

A better question is how do these PC sections play into the same firearm in its case? Or my AR15 in a Dry-Fire Discreet Case?

kD4M8O_KqtQ

Should I have put that bad boy on my LTC?

ap3572001
02-05-2012, 8:29 AM
Interesting question .

If while on duty , I stop someone and find out that they have a pistol gripped shotgun or an SKS under a rain coat , there will be a lot of questions......:)

SanPedroShooter
02-05-2012, 8:36 AM
I thought long guns were not concealable by statute. Weather they fit under a trenchcoat or not.... Is that not why I can go to the range with my long gun concealed in an unlocked case?

Mad Scotsman
02-05-2012, 8:38 AM
Why?
If you need a firearm for SD, LUCC or LTC.

MudCamper
02-05-2012, 8:42 AM
Wildhawker already posted the answer.

It is perfectly legal to carry an unloaded long gun concealed.

However, you can't do so within 1000 feet of a K-12 school.

tenpercentfirearms
02-05-2012, 8:45 AM
Wildhawker already posted the answer.

It is perfectly legal to carry an unloaded long gun concealed.

However, you can't do so within 1000 feet of a K-12 school.

I didn't see it perfectly answered. A Mossberg 500 can have its over 16" barrel interchanged with a barrel less than 16"es. That also includes AR15s as well.

Further what is concealed and what is in a case? How do we make that differentiation?

prkprisoner
02-05-2012, 8:53 AM
While this would be legal. You will still likely get booked into jail. Charges will eventually be dropped, but they took your gun, freedom and possibly your car. I've seen it happen.

tenpercentfirearms
02-05-2012, 8:57 AM
While this would be legal. You will still likely get booked into jail. Charges will eventually be dropped, but they took your gun, freedom and possibly your car. I've seen it happen.

It is either legal or it isn't. Armed with knowledge, I have no fear of illegal arrest when I can explain to a supervisor how it is going to hurt that they just arrested me for something I am not arrestable for.

In this case, the interchange language makes this very interesting.

a1c
02-05-2012, 8:58 AM
Just because something is not illegal doesn't mean it's a good idea.

CSACANNONEER
02-05-2012, 8:59 AM
I didn't see it perfectly answered. A Mossberg 500 can have its over 16" barrel interchanged with a barrel less than 16"es. That also includes AR15s as well.

Further what is concealed and what is in a case? How do we make that differentiation?

In the example you mentioned, the mossberg 500 sith a 16" barrel would need to be an AOW with a tax stamp and it would be classified as an "other firearm capable of being concealed upon a person". So, it would be illegal to carry or even possess unless the proper tax stamp is obtained prior to installing said 16" shotgun barrel.

E Pluribus Unum
02-05-2012, 9:04 AM
Interesting question .

If while on duty , I stop someone and find out that they have a pistol gripped shotgun or an SKS under a rain coat , there will be a lot of questions......:)


Ask all the questions you want... it's legal.

Rifles and shotguns in legal configuration cannot be considered "concealed" under the law. If you can get it concealed on your person with a trench-coat, or other similar way, it's fine. While not a good idea, there is nothing illegal about it.

diggersdarling
02-05-2012, 9:11 AM
Just because something is not illegal doesn't mean it's a good idea.

Not what was asked. Let's stay on topic.

zhyla
02-05-2012, 9:12 AM
Yup, legal. Despite the obvious layman meaning of "capable of being concealed", a non-SBS shotgun cannot be "capable of being concealed" in CA law.

But forget the legality part. Who in their right mind wears trench coats these days? I've never even seen a trench coat in person.

Not what was asked. Let's stay on topic.

If someone asks "is it legal to pour gasoline everywhere in my house?", do you stick to the question at hand?

Ziggy91
02-05-2012, 9:20 AM
Long guns, over 16 inches, legally cannot be classified as concealed no matter how you carry it... Even if you it's in your vehicle. Any LEO should know that.

If it's unloaded, go for a walk and carry it around... I can think of no better way to get some unwanted attention. I'm sure you will either get some nasty looks or a visit from local law enforcement. Trust me... they LOVE to hear about a guy walking around with a shotgun and a trench coat... those ARs in the trunk need to get tested somehow.

longshot28
02-05-2012, 9:21 AM
Sorry if that question made me look bad or made me seem like i had any bad intentions or didn't introduce myself before asking such an odd question. Well this was my first time posting and had never been in any forum type things before. Joined the the site to get answers and had this question but no real answer. This was purely an educational and curiosity based question and i know even if legal that would be a horrible idea and would make me and all gun owners alike look bad. Sorry for any confusion. Ill try not to let any of my other post look as bad.

CSACANNONEER
02-05-2012, 9:31 AM
Long guns, over 16 inches, legally cannot be classified as concealed no matter how you carry it... Even if you it's in your vehicle. Any LEO should know that.
If it's unloaded, go for a walk and carry it around... I can think of no better way to get some unwanted attention. I'm sure you will either get some nasty looks or a visit from local law enforcement. Trust me... they LOVE to hear about a guy walking around with a shotgun and a trench coat... those ARs in the trunk need to get tested somehow.


Not exactly correct. Rifles need to have a barrel 16" or over AND have an OAL length or 26" or more. Shotguns need to have a barrel legth of at least 18" and an OAL of 26" or more. Any LEO or gun nut should know that.:p

ap3572001
02-05-2012, 10:29 AM
Ask all the questions you want... it's legal.

Rifles and shotguns in legal configuration cannot be considered "concealed" under the law. If you can get it concealed on your person with a trench-coat, or other similar way, it's fine. While not a good idea, there is nothing illegal about it.

Yes, it is NOT a good idea. Not at all.....

MudCamper
02-05-2012, 3:53 PM
I didn't see it perfectly answered. A Mossberg 500 can have its over 16" barrel interchanged with a barrel less than 16"es. That also includes AR15s as well.

But then those would no longer be long guns. They'd be SBR's (or whatever). The OP was asking specifically about a 20 inch barrel shotgun.

Further what is concealed and what is in a case? How do we make that differentiation?

PC 25400 (formerly 12025) makes concealing handguns illegal, not rifles nor shotguns. It doesn't matter what a case is. Locking cases are the exception to 25400.

I can't believe there is even anyone who doubts this. I always transport my rifles and shotguns concealed, not in a locked case.

GrizzlyGuy
02-05-2012, 4:37 PM
I can't believe there is even anyone who doubts this. I always transport my rifles and shotguns concealed, not in a locked case.

I can't believe it either. This is 100% legal. Period, end of story.

Ziggy91
02-05-2012, 7:32 PM
Not exactly correct. Rifles need to have a barrel 16" or over AND have an OAL length or 26" or more. Shotguns need to have a barrel legth of at least 18" and an OAL of 26" or more. Any LEO or gun nut should know that.:p

Whoops!
Missed that one, I've been thinking barrels all day.

Good thing I'm neither ;)

RickD427
02-05-2012, 8:43 PM
Long guns, over 16 inches, legally cannot be classified as concealed no matter how you carry it... Even if you it's in your vehicle. Any LEO should know that.

If it's unloaded, go for a walk and carry it around... I can think of no better way to get some unwanted attention. I'm sure you will either get some nasty looks or a visit from local law enforcement. Trust me... they LOVE to hear about a guy walking around with a shotgun and a trench coat... those ARs in the trunk need to get tested somehow.

Ziggy,

I'm not so sure about your conclusion that a Long Gun, over 16 inches, "legally cannot be classified as concealed no matter how you carry it". If anyone can cite any cases so holding, I'd be very interested in reading them.

The way the statutes are worded, it is possible to establish a violation of Penal Code section 24400 (Carrying a concealed weapon) where the weapon is a long rifle or shotgun. There's a big difference between the use of "inclusive" and "exclusive" language. The reason lies in the use of "inclusive" language in section 16530 defining what is a concealed weapon. Here is the exact language of the code:

16530.
(a) As used in this part, the terms "firearm capable of
being concealed upon the person," "pistol," and "revolver" apply to
and include any device designed to be used as a weapon, from which is
expelled a projectile by the force of any explosion, or other form
of combustion, and that has a barrel less than 16 inches in length.
These terms also include any device that has a barrel 16 inches or
more in length which is designed to be interchanged with a barrel
less than 16 inches in length. (Emphasis added)

It's that one little word "include" that causes all the fuss. If section 16530 used the word "is" instead of "includes", then you'd be right on point, but it doesn't say that.

Think of it like this:

1) Some cars are sports cars (true statement)

2) Sports cars include Ferraris, Porsches and Lamborghinies (Also a true statement)

3) Therefore a Maserati is not a sports car??????

wildhawker
02-05-2012, 8:55 PM
Interesting question .

If while on duty , I stop someone and find out that they have a pistol gripped shotgun or an SKS under a rain coat , there will be a lot of questions......:)

For each of those questions, there is one answer. Eventually [in not too long a period] I'll be asking you a few questions: Is this a voluntary encounter? Am I free to leave? What is your name and badge number? (Please speak up, my voice recorder doesn't like whispers.)

-Brandon

I can't believe it either. This is 100% legal. Period, end of story.

Agreed. Outside of the GFSZ issue (and other misc. prohibitions), this is a non-issue.

However, people have and probably will yet again be arrested for this sort of thing. It's not a best practice, and you certainly had better be prepared to go for the ride.

-Brandon

a1c
02-05-2012, 9:17 PM
Not what was asked. Let's stay on topic.

The OP himself recognized that it was "a bit weird."

Is it on topic? Hell yes. Because we California gun owners are a community, and we aim to be a responsible one.

So while I'm not one to want to prevent the OP from doing something that's perfectly legal, that doesn't mean he should act selfishly by making the news for concealing a shotgun under a trenchcoat.

Meplat
02-05-2012, 9:24 PM
It is either legal or it isn't. Armed with knowledge, I have no fear of illegal arrest when I can explain to a supervisor how it is going to hurt that they just arrested me for something I am not arrestable for.

In this case, the interchange language makes this very interesting.

Ignorance of the law is no excuse……..except for police.:rolleyes:

Meplat
02-05-2012, 9:32 PM
Just because something is not illegal doesn't mean it's a good idea.

I don't think the OP indicated in any way that he thought it was a good idea.

To me the greatest value this anomaly has is to demonstrate to the uninformed how convoluted and tortured the illogic behind our CA gun laws really is.

E Pluribus Unum
02-05-2012, 11:32 PM
Ignorance of the law is no excuse……..except for police.:rolleyes:

That right there is sig material.....

hoffmang
02-06-2012, 8:34 PM
I've done it. Search for "guitar party."

You can legally conceal an unloaded long gun as long as you stay 1000' away from schools. We've had at least one person arrested and charged for it but CGF got the case dismissed since it's not a crime...

-Gene

Decoligny
02-06-2012, 8:46 PM
Honestly do you think this is a good idea?


http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/Defining_Concealed





Those sections seem to cover shotguns although they don't outright say the word shotgun
I may be wrong but it looks no go to me

The key words are "designed to be interchanged".

You will notice it doesn't say "capable of being interchanged".

Designing a shotgun to take a barrell less than 16" would be designing an AOW if I am not mistaken, not a shotgun, as a shotgun with a barrell under 18.5" would be a short barrelled shotgun and illegal.

ap3572001
02-06-2012, 10:44 PM
For each of those questions, there is one answer. Eventually [in not too long a period] I'll be asking you a few questions: Is this a voluntary encounter? Am I free to leave? What is your name and badge number? (Please speak up, my voice recorder doesn't like whispers.)

-Brandon



Agreed. Outside of the GFSZ issue (and other misc. prohibitions), this is a non-issue.

However, people have and probably will yet again be arrested for this sort of thing. It's not a best practice, and you certainly had better be prepared to go for the ride.

-Brandon We dont just stop people who wear long coats for fun. I am talking going on call and finding someone with a shotgun under their jacket. This will not go very well.

E Pluribus Unum
02-06-2012, 10:54 PM
I've done it. Search for "guitar party."

You can legally conceal an unloaded long gun as long as you stay 1000' away from schools. We've had at least one person arrested and charged for it but CGF got the case dismissed since it's not a crime...

-Gene

We dont just stop people who wear long coats for fun. I am talking going on call and finding someone with a shotgun under their jacket. This will not go very well.

You might be in the clear, but your department will have a lot of "splainin" to do if you injure someone that has broken no law.

Sounds like a very large civil rights lawsuit waiting to happen.

ap3572001
02-06-2012, 11:04 PM
I guess I will have to take it easy on folks walking around with rifles and shotguns hidden under their coats. LOL

E Pluribus Unum
02-06-2012, 11:12 PM
I guess I will have to take it easy on folks walking around with rifles and shotguns hidden under their coats. LOL

Well, now... you no longer have the ignorance defense... you can't really say you didn't KNOW it was legal... :)

We (the gun community) don't want this (concealed carry of long guns) any more than your neighbors (fellow residents of San Francisco) do. Sometimes, in certain areas and scenarios, the law-abiding gun owner's options to self defense are very limited. Now, with no open carry option, the only thing left short of being a victim, is unloaded concealed long gun carry. For me, concealed long gun carry is asinine.

I have applied for a CCW and was denied. In my view, I've done my part to comply with the law. If a situation ever arose where I felt my life could be in danger, I would carry my handgun concealed anyway. Concealed unloaded long gun carry is more likely a rifle donation than an option for self-defense. It's better to risk the double-misdemeanor of carrying concealed and loaded than it is to be killed while getting out my locked container.

ap3572001
02-06-2012, 11:22 PM
What CA needs is SHALL ISSUE CCW.

E Pluribus Unum
02-06-2012, 11:31 PM
What CA needs is SHALL ISSUE CCW.

Amen to that; what do we do in the interim? :)

hoffmang
02-07-2012, 8:07 PM
We dont just stop people who wear long coats for fun. I am talking going on call and finding someone with a shotgun under their jacket. This will not go very well.

The last time it did "not go very well" the municipality paid for bail and lawyers fees on our side and then retrained its force.

Ignorance of the law is no excuse for both sides.

-Gene

RickD427
02-07-2012, 10:00 PM
I've done it. Search for "guitar party."

You can legally conceal an unloaded long gun as long as you stay 1000' away from schools. We've had at least one person arrested and charged for it but CGF got the case dismissed since it's not a crime...

-Gene

Gene,

Thanks for the post. I tried searching "Guitar Party" but it didn't lead me to a case.

Do you have a case citation?

Not withstanding the trial case that you cited, more than 10 years ago, I did approve an arrest where a gang member had concealed an AR-15 clone under a coat. We secured a filing and a conviction based on the "inclusive" language provision of the statute. But neither your trial case, nor mine, constitutes a legal precedent. If there is a published case holding otherwise, I'd very much appreciate the opportunity to add it to my library. We're never too old to learn something new.

hoffmang
02-07-2012, 10:34 PM
Gene,

Thanks for the post. I tried searching "Guitar Party" but it didn't lead me to a case.

Do you have a case citation?

Not withstanding the trial case that you cited, more than 10 years ago, I did approve an arrest where a gang member had concealed an AR-15 clone under a coat. We secured a filing and a conviction based on the "inclusive" language provision of the statute. But neither your trial case, nor mine, constitutes a legal precedent. If there is a published case holding otherwise, I'd very much appreciate the opportunity to add it to my library. We're never too old to learn something new.

The Guitar Party was an event thrown by Oaklander way back in the day to carry concealed unloaded long guns in guitar cases in Oakland.

However, the case in question was reported on here: http://www.calgunsfoundation.org/news-blog/successful-defenses/80-just-in-time-for-christmas-yet-another-win-for-the-calguns-foundation.html

What additionally happened is that the 42 USC 1983 case settled with attorney's fees, bail costs, and the firearms being returned.

Concealing an unloaded long arm outside a school zone isn't a crime. Arresting someone for something that is not a crime is a per se violation of the Fourth Amendment.

-Gene

motorhead
02-07-2012, 11:19 PM
someone's channelling clyde barrow.

RickD427
02-07-2012, 11:36 PM
The Guitar Party was an event thrown by Oaklander way back in the day to carry concealed unloaded long guns in guitar cases in Oakland.

However, the case in question was reported on here: http://www.calgunsfoundation.org/news-blog/successful-defenses/80-just-in-time-for-christmas-yet-another-win-for-the-calguns-foundation.html

What additionally happened is that the 42 USC 1983 case settled with attorney's fees, bail costs, and the firearms being returned.

Concealing an unloaded long arm outside a school zone isn't a crime. Arresting someone for something that is not a crime is a per se violation of the Fourth Amendment.

-Gene

Gene,

Thanks, I'll give the materials a read. Did the the 1983 case result in a settlement, or judgement?

bwiese
02-07-2012, 11:48 PM
Gene,
Not withstanding the trial case that you cited, more than 10 years ago, I did approve an arrest where a gang member had concealed an AR-15 clone under a coat. We secured a filing and a conviction based on the "inclusive" language provision of the statute. But neither your trial case, nor mine, constitutes a legal precedent.

Your case, I'd bet, involved a plea and a public defender.

There are many incorrectly prosecuted gun cases in CA, which is why we push back.

And while trial courts are not precedential, a gunrights defense and record of 'pushback' can cause future cases to be no-filed.

bwiese
02-07-2012, 11:54 PM
We dont just stop people who wear long coats for fun. I am talking going on call and finding someone with a shotgun under their jacket. This will not go very well.

Maybe not for you.

Remember what happened to EPA PD officer Rod Tuason?

Howzabout those cops up in Marin County who can't figure out AWs, but are receiving an education about them thru CGF? We're gonna be able to pierce qualified immunity one of these days ;-) and it'd be nice to separate the cop from a budget-stressed dept and have him pay instead of the county.

What about those San Diego cops that arrested Sam Wolanyk for legal open carry?

Nobody gives a crap what you like or not. I'd be glad to spend a weekend in jail to enhance your education.

If you don't like your job, the private sector is hiring (or not).

It's also quite interesting that you have repeatedly asked here over the last year a variety of "Why not...." legal questions in this forum, but all of a sudden when something crosses your "line of blue" viewpoint you go sideways.

RickD427
02-07-2012, 11:57 PM
Your case, I'd bet, involved a plea and a public defender.

There are many incorrectly prosecuted gun cases in CA, which is why we push back.

And while trial courts are not precedential, a gunrights defense and record of 'pushback' can cause future cases to be no-filed.

You're absolutely correct. It was a PD defended case.

At the same time, Los Angels County often settles 1983 cases as "business decisions'". That's normally done without conceding the merits of the case. Neither one of these outcomes is controlling over future cases. That's why I'm looking for a published appellate decision. Those are controlling.

BTW, I agree with your approach to better define the bounds of the law. A clear set of rules benefits everyone. That's another reason why I'm asking for a published case.

hoffmang
02-08-2012, 9:58 PM
Gene,

Thanks, I'll give the materials a read. Did the the 1983 case result in a settlement, or judgement?

A settlement in front of a Federal Judge putting the lean on the municipality.

-Gene