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Montrose
02-01-2012, 6:10 PM
i know i am new but their are other military members here so i just wanted to know how this would be for lets say active duty military who is a TN resident and is stationed in CA, i can still buy hand guns in TN and come to CA with them and register them with DOJ with in 30 days, and i can buy hand guns here in CA too.

Montrose

Librarian
02-01-2012, 6:30 PM
i know i am new but their are other military members here so i just wanted to know how this would be for lets say active duty military who is a TN resident and is stationed in CA, i can still buy hand guns in TN and come to CA with them and register them with DOJ with in 30 days, and i can buy hand guns here in CA too.

Montrose

Not quite.

Feds say your residence for gun things is where you are stationed (PCS orders). That means you can NOT go to your 'permanent home of record' (or any other state besides your PCS state) and legally buy guns -- even if you still have a house there, pay taxes there, and have your driver's license from there. See the wiki on residency -- http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/Federal_residency_requirements (One small, rare exception.) According to the Feds, if you PCS to CA, you are a resident of CA for gun things, full stop.

On the other hand, you can bring any gun/handgun you like here that you bought before PCS to CA, except for 'assault weapons' and a few others; you do not need to register them at all, because you are not 'moving here to make CA your home', you are not a 'Personal Handgun Importer'. Again, see the wiki on moving to CA -- http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/Moving_to_California_with_firearms

Montrose
02-02-2012, 2:19 PM
I just got off the phone with the BATF office in LA, they said that the wording is a little misleading, that is in there to allow US service member's to buy firearms in the state they are stationed, I was also told that it is legal for me to also buy firearms in TN, the only stipulation they had is if the firearm is banned in CA say a .50 cal BMG I could not bring it here, I also contacted the TN BATF office and got the same thing, I have been buying rifle's/shotguns and hand guns in CA and out of CA at my home of record for the last 16 years I have been in the military and your post got me worried that I could go to jail for breaking the law but as it turns out military only in CA because of stationing orders who is a resident in another state can by firearms in both.

Montrose

Librarian
02-02-2012, 3:02 PM
I just got off the phone with the BATF office in LA, they said that the wording is a little misleading, that is in there to allow US service member's to buy firearms in the state they are stationed, I was also told that it is legal for me to also buy firearms in TN, the only stipulation they had is if the firearm is banned in CA say a .50 cal BMG I could not bring it here, I also contacted the TN BATF office and got the same thing, I have been buying rifle's/shotguns and hand guns in CA and out of CA at my home of record for the last 16 years I have been in the military and your post got me worried that I could go to jail for breaking the law but as it turns out military only in CA because of stationing orders who is a resident in another state can by firearms in both.

Montrose

Do you suppose you can get that in writing? That directly contradicts what BATF has on its website, and what it says in the regulation; while I can easily believe they might be wrong on the website, getting the rest of the BATF to believe that's wrong will be the challenge.

Typically, one writes to one or both offices and says
on date X I called Office Y of the BATFE and spoke to person Z.

I asked A, B, and C, and was told thus and so.

Is that the correct interpretation of the regulations 27 CFR 487.11 ?

Decoligny
02-02-2012, 3:12 PM
Do you suppose you can get that in writing? That directly contradicts what BATF has on its website, and what it says in the regulation; while I can easily believe they might be wrong on the website, getting the rest of the BATF to believe that's wrong will be the challenge.

Typically, one writes to one or both offices and says
on date X I called Office Y of the BATFE and spoke to person Z.

I asked A, B, and C, and was told thus and so.

Is that the correct interpretation of the regulations 27 CFR 487.11 ?

I would not trust anything from a local BATFE office. I have read that there have been people convicted for violating laws where a local BATFE office had told them in writing that the activity they were doing was 100% legal. Apparently the local office put out in writing a memo that contradicted what was already published by the main BATFE office. The head office's published ruling outweighed the local office's published ruling.

Montrose
02-02-2012, 5:27 PM
i will try, but this could affect almost most of the military since we hardly get stationed in where we are from, and all that buy firearms buy them in their home state and where they are stationed. the agent also stated that PCS orders do not take away my TN resident status because we are not here by our own right it's federal orders under the DOD i will see what else i can get because this could also affect all the FFL's i have bought from in the last 16 years.

ok i found the rule where it does say it is ok it is 18 U.S.C. 922(T)(1)(C) 27 CFR 178.24 ATF RUL. 2001.5
Montrose

Montrose
02-02-2012, 6:04 PM
in simple terms when i am in CA for firearms sales my ID and Orders makes me a resident , and when i am in TN since i am also a TN resident i can purchase firearms, for military personnel it is ok to have duel resident status as long as i meet the normal requirments required by the state for firearm sales.


Montrose

Librarian
02-02-2012, 6:21 PM
I don't think that works generally - at least, it doesn't read that way to me.

Here's the easy part: Held further, a purchaser who is a member of the Armed Forces on active duty is a resident of the State in which his or her permanent duty station is located, and may satisfy the identification document requirement by presenting his or her military identification card along with official orders showing that his or her permanent duty station is located within the State where the licensed premises are located.We knew that.

Here's the example (http://www.atf.gov/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2001-5.html) BATF uses:
Licensees should note that for purposes of the GCA, military personnel may in some cases have two States of residence.
For example, a member of the Armed Forces whose permanent duty station is Fort Benning, Georgia, may actually reside in a home in Alabama. For GCA purposes, that individual is a resident of Georgia when he or she is in Georgia and a resident of Alabama when he or she is in Alabama. If such an individual wishes to purchase a firearm in Alabama, he or she must of course comply with the identification document requirement in the same way as any other Alabama resident.

Note "in some cases", not something like 'active duty military usually have two states of residence'.

Here's the 2004 newsletter to FFLs (http://www.atf.gov/publications/newsletters/ffl/ffl-newsletter-2004-08.pdf): The general definition of State of residence is the State in which an individual resides. An individual resides in a State if he or she is present in a State with an intention of making a home in the State. If a member of the Armed Forces maintains a home in one State and the member’s permanent duty station is in a nearby State to which he or she commutes each day, then the member is considered a resident of both the State in which his or her duty station is located and the State in which his or her home is maintained, and he or she may purchase a firearm in either State.

It'd be neat to commute from TN to CA and back every day; SR71 pilot, maybe.

I think that perhaps the problem with residence in the non-PCS state is that, while Uncle has his hooks in you, you are not there 'making a home in the State'. But I don't really know.

Montrose
02-02-2012, 8:00 PM
i understand the news letter, but i could not find any law that says i do or don't have to commute, but i may be wrong but are the news letters law or guidance it seems this subject has some gray areas with 2 different BATF offices in 2 different states says it's ok but the news letter says you need commute, this issue matters to me since i have bought firearms in about 6 different states over the last 16 years, i do want to thank you for the help and guidance your are providing.

Montrose

dustoff31
02-02-2012, 8:12 PM
i understand the news letter, but i could not find any law that says i do or don't have to commute, but i may be wrong but are the news letters law or guidance it seems this subject has some gray areas with 2 different BATF offices in 2 different states says it's ok but the news letter says you need commute, this issue matters to me since i have bought firearms in about 6 different states over the last 16 years, i do want to thank you for the help and guidance your are providing.

Montrose

I think most everyone who has been in the military for any length of time has done that. Whether technically correct or not, it's common practice and always has been. As far as trying to stop it, I suggest that BATF has no interest in going there.

The bolded part is also interesting. As I'm sure you have, I have been present in a number of places in which I had absolutely no intention of making a home. I was only there because I had to be.

The general definition of State of residence is the State in which an individual resides. An individual resides in a State if he or she is present in a State with an intention of making a home in the State. If a member of the Armed Forces maintains a home in one State and the member’s permanent duty station is in a nearby State to which he or she commutes each day, then the member is considered a resident of both the State in which his or her duty station is located and the State in which his or her home is maintained, and he or she may purchase a firearm in either State.

Montrose
02-02-2012, 8:22 PM
yea dustoff i am not staying here, i also wanted to add for voting i am not CA resident but a TN resident, i can't vote here because i do not plan on staying here thats also in the law thats what makes this harder for me to understand.

Montrose

whatpain
02-02-2012, 8:27 PM
yeah they usually give you a lil leeway as military in whatever state youre stationed in. i would just be carefull when transporting from tn to ca. there are some stupid states between there and here

lhecker51
02-03-2012, 9:18 AM
Not quite.

Feds say your residence for gun things is where you are stationed (PCS orders). That means you can NOT go to your 'permanent home of record' (or any other state besides your PCS state) and legally buy guns -- even if you still have a house there, pay taxes there, and have your driver's license from there. See the wiki on residency -- http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/Federal_residency_requirements (One small, rare exception.) According to the Feds, if you PCS to CA, you are a resident of CA for gun things, full stop.

On the other hand, you can bring any gun/handgun you like here that you bought before PCS to CA, except for 'assault weapons' and a few others; you do not need to register them at all, because you are not 'moving here to make CA your home', you are not a 'Personal Handgun Importer'. Again, see the wiki on moving to CA -- http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/Moving_to_California_with_firearms

What is the rule on those that PCS to CA with an AR and then due to a job offer, end up retiring here and not moving back to their home state? Do they have to get rid of the AR? That is the situation I am in.

Librarian
02-03-2012, 11:45 AM
What is the rule on those that PCS to CA with an AR and then due to a job offer, end up retiring here and not moving back to their home state? Do they have to get rid of the AR? That is the situation I am in.

Multiple problems here...

There is this thing called a 'Military Assault Weapon Permit' that used to allow military moving to CA to register their weapons. The administration of that program changed to require Commanding Officer certification that such weapons were required for duty, and pretty much every member reporting since that change tells us that letter is impossible to get.

Without a MAWP, if your AR is what CA calls an 'assault weapon', it shouldn't be here.

Let's say you do have the MAWP.

If you are separating in CA (or moving to CA), you have 90 days to get rid of any 'assault weapons'. For those that are on the 'named' list, they have to go out of state or be sold to a dealer who has an 'assault weapon' license. For those not 'named', you can put a magazine lock on them (and be careful not to use 10+ magazines in them) or modify them to 'featureless'.