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Santa Cruz Armory
02-01-2012, 9:44 PM
Ok... Customer orders and starts paperwork on a Mossy 500. During the 10 day he decides to take a job back east for 6 months or so... today his dad calls and tells me all this and wants to know how he can have the gun DROS'd to himself now.

I haven't heard from the original customer yet but don't suspect any foul play as both are family members of my wife.

How would you guys handle this one??

watsonville
02-01-2012, 9:52 PM
Isnt that a intrafamily transfer or does the guy have to be there to sign and give the go ahead?

stitchnicklas
02-01-2012, 9:54 PM
refund the money back to original buyer and have his dad come in and start a new dros.if you chose to let him slide on the cancellation cost fine,make him eat the dros fee as UN-refundable though.

clean and clear cut ,and atf /doj can't pick on you over it

kemasa
02-02-2012, 8:10 AM
Without a confirmation from the original purchaser, I would not just do the transfer to the father. While it might be valid, I would not just assume that it is.

I am not sure that I would do the transfer to the father. I would have to think about that as it comes into the area of a possible straw purchase. Is the son giving the firearm to father? Or is the father just doing the transfer to get the firearm for the son? I doubt that it would be considered as a gift to the son should the son later end up with the firearm.

The son is out the DROS fee, but a re-stocking fee of some sort. You did the paperwork and deserve to be paid.

tenpercentfirearms
02-02-2012, 2:32 PM
Contact the buyer. Tell him that you are going to wait 15 days before canceling his DROS. Clearly he wasn't prohibited. Tell him you will send him a check for the refund or someone can come pick it up for him. Tell him if he knows anyone that wants to buy the shotgun, it will be at the store for the same price.

Sell it to the next guy that comes in asking for that type of shotgun.

This is not a straw purchase.

I would also encourage the kid to come back into the state before the 30 days are up or he will get the restocking/DROS cancellation fee.

Clearly you have no reason to believe the kid is prohibited or even that he is trying to buy firearms for other people, he just had to leave the state and couldn't finish the transaction.

kemasa
02-02-2012, 2:41 PM
It could be viewed as a straw purchase since the father is submitting the DROS for the son, but the son is the one who paid for it.

Read question 11a on the 4473.

The father is not the actual buyer and is not getting it as a gift for his son. This means that the honest answer for 11a is no, which means that the transfer can not go forward.

tenpercentfirearms
02-02-2012, 7:02 PM
It could be viewed as a straw purchase since the father is submitting the DROS for the son, but the son is the one who paid for it.

Read question 11a on the 4473.

The father is not the actual buyer and is not getting it as a gift for his son. This means that the honest answer for 11a is no, which means that the transfer can not go forward.

I guess you missed the part where you refund the kid his money back and sell it to the next guy that comes in asking for one.

Second, the son can also say he was buying it as a gift for his father. Would it be a straw purchase if the kid came in and paid the money and the father was the one that DROSed it? No it would not.

Santa Cruz Armory
02-02-2012, 9:13 PM
Thanks for the info guys.

Remember this is a family member, the original buyer already paid for and DROS'd the firearm and passed the 10 day wait with no red flags. The dad simply wants to pick up the gun and he and the son know they're out the $25. Believe me, money isn't a problem with them... I just think that they don't want to leave the gun here for 6 months (which I offered to do cuz they're family)

I'm gonna get a release from the original buyer just to cover my azz.

tenpercentfirearms
02-02-2012, 9:27 PM
Thanks for the info guys.

Remember this is a family member, the original buyer already paid for and DROS'd the firearm and passed the 10 day wait with no red flags. The dad simply wants to pick up the gun and he and the son know they're out the $25. Believe me, money isn't a problem with them... I just think that they don't want to leave the gun here for 6 months (which I offered to do cuz they're family)

I'm gonna get a release from the original buyer just to cover my azz.

Another simple answer, have the son say, "I changed my mind, I want to give this to my father." Run a new DROS and done.

kemasa
02-03-2012, 9:22 AM
I guess you missed the part where you refund the kid his money back and sell it to the next guy that comes in asking for one.

Second, the son can also say he was buying it as a gift for his father. Would it be a straw purchase if the kid came in and paid the money and the father was the one that DROSed it? No it would not.

If you want to play games and ignore what you know, which could be a problem in this case since he knows them, then you can do such things.

In this case it is known that the father is doing the transfer for his son, but it is NOT a gift.

There are other cases where it would not be an issue. While both are not prohibited, that does not matter as it is not a requirement to be a straw purchase.

tenpercentfirearms
02-03-2012, 12:55 PM
In this case it is known that the father is doing the transfer for his son, but it is NOT a gift.

Unless the son tells him he changed his mind and he wants his father to have it. Or if he says he was planning on giving it to his father all along.

kemasa
02-03-2012, 1:27 PM
Yeah, right. It is games and you are asking for trouble.

tenpercentfirearms
02-04-2012, 1:26 PM
Yeah, right. It is games and you are asking for trouble.

I just follow the rules. Gifts are not illegal. Canceling a transaction and then selling the firearm to someone else is also not illegal. Fathers can buy their kids firearms and hand them over to them with no paperwork required.

I am also willing to bet if you described this very scenario to an ATF agent they wouldn't even bat an eye. This is not the evil straw sale of Fast and Furious fame.

But you go ahead and deny the transaction and refund the money and never sell that shotgun to anyone in that family or to anyone who knows the guy. That is your choice and I have no problems with that.

There comes a time when you need to use a little common sense and run a business, not worry about what someone from the government isn't going to say in a situation they do not care about.

kemasa
02-04-2012, 2:11 PM
Yes, canceling a transaction and selling it to someone else is not an issue, but selling it to the father who can not really answer "yes" to question 11a is a problem.

Years ago I talked to a BATF agent and he did not understand why someone else paying for a firearm could be an issue, or in other words he had no idea of what a straw purchase was.

Wes, you are the one who needs a bit of common sense. It is a matter of doing the right thing and not playing games. When you know what is actually going on, you need to do the right thing and not just consider whether you are going to get caught doing it or not.

tenpercentfirearms
02-04-2012, 2:27 PM
Wes, you are the one who needs a bit of common sense. It is a matter of doing the right thing and not playing games. When you know what is actually going on, you need to do the right thing and not just consider whether you are going to get caught doing it or not.

Doing the right thing is completing a transaction that isn't a straw purchase and let people get on with their lives. To each their own.

kemasa
02-04-2012, 2:47 PM
Can the father honestly answer "yes" to question 11a? You keep ignoring that.

If the father is doing the transfer for the son, then it is actually a straw purchase. It does not matter that neither is prohibited, as that is not a requirement for a straw purchase.

Just because you think that it should be ok does not mean that it actually is nor that it actually is legal.

tenpercentfirearms
02-04-2012, 4:13 PM
Can the father honestly answer "yes" to question 11a? You keep ignoring that.

That is a question only the father can answer. Per the 4473 questions he can also answer yes if he is purchasing it as a gift for someone else.

If he puts Yes, then it is for him. If he puts no, then it is a straw purchase (actually you can put no and it not be a straw purchase, but I forget the reason why, something like a pawn return or something) and I wouldn't sell it to him. Really, this isn't that hard.