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View Full Version : Bumpfire legality and alternatives (NO, I am not asking if the slidefire is legal)


vta
02-01-2012, 11:46 AM
OK, before we go any further, this is NOT another thread about the slidefire stock or whether if it is legal. It is clearly NOT legal.

However, this is a discussion about the law as the way it is written.

Am I interpreting it correctly that in order for a product to be consider an illegal multi-burst activator it will need to be attached to the firearm? Does that mean that a tool that is not attached that allows for bumpfire would not be banned by the penal code?

When a person sticks their thumb thru the trigger guard and tucks it in their belt loop for bumpfiring, clearly that pair of pants is not consider a 'multi-burst' activator. Or if they cut off a 6 inch piece of wooden dowel and use it to pull the trigger for bumpfire, it would also not be considered illegal.

If that is the case, does anyone have any thoughts on how we can create such an effective device that does NOT attach to the firearm but can achieve the same level of efficiency and accuracy as an illegal bumpfire stock.

after all, most of us just want to have some fun in the desert and blow up pumpkins.


12020 PC.
(a) Any person in this state who does any of the following is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year or in the state prison:
(1) Manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives, lends, or possesses any ......, any multiburst trigger activator,


(c)
(23) As used in this section, a "multiburst trigger activator" means one of the following devices:
(A) A device designed or redesigned to be attached to a semiautomatic firearm which allows the firearm to discharge two or more shots in a burst by activating the device.

(B) A manual or power-driven trigger activating device constructed and designed so that when attached to a semiautomatic firearm it increases the rate of fire of that firearm.

ns3v3n
02-01-2012, 11:50 AM
Desert, yeah you're fine, local ranges, probably get yelled at for not spacing shots between 2-3 secs.

Librarian
02-01-2012, 11:52 AM
OK, before we go any further, this is NOT another thread about the slidefire stock or whether if it is legal. It is clearly NOT legal.

However, this is a discussion about the law as the way it is written.



... which means it's a 2A forum question. Moved.

bigcalidave
02-01-2012, 12:05 PM
I'd say that a shoulder pad or hip pad with a big spring in it, worn as part of your clothing, both should work and would be legal :)

ETA: ^^ My idea, I want my cut when its made. Design Copyright.

vta
02-01-2012, 12:20 PM
... which means it's a 2A forum question. Moved.
fair enough, thanks.

I'd say that a shoulder pad or hip pad with a big spring in it, worn as part of your clothing, both should work and would be legal :)

ETA: ^^ My idea, I want my cut when its made. Design Copyright.

i was thinking like a piece of kydex that is molded to the shape of the top of a stock but does not attach to it. it could have the same finger shelf as the slidefire next to the trigger. It would work like a bumpfire stock but falls free when the rifle is not held. I am calling royalty dibs on this design :)

bigcalidave
02-01-2012, 12:35 PM
I think to not be attached, since there is no definition of attached and we know that slip on trigger multiburst activators are a no-go, it should be a part of YOU or your clothing.

stix213
02-01-2012, 12:39 PM
hmmm I like where this thread is going.

vta
02-01-2012, 12:52 PM
I think to not be attached, since there is no definition of attached and we know that slip on trigger multiburst activators are a no-go, it should be a part of YOU or your clothing.

maybe it comes with a sling swivel and sling attached so you can wear it around your body.

adamsreeftank
02-01-2012, 1:41 PM
I'll throw this into the mix...

133277

bwiese
02-01-2012, 1:47 PM
Am I interpreting it correctly that in order for a product to be consider an illegal multi-burst activator it will need to be attached to the firearm? Does that mean that a tool that is not attached that allows for bumpfire would not be banned by the penal code?

If it's identifiably functional as a MTBA, it should be regarded as a banned device whether or not it's attached to the gun, or even if you don't own a gun the device works with.

Just like possessing the SlideFire stock or a HellFire trigger activator separately is illegal.




When a person sticks their thumb thru the trigger guard and tucks it in their belt loop for bumpfiring, clearly that pair of pants is not consider a 'multi-burst' activator. Or if they cut off a 6 inch piece of wooden dowel and use it to pull the trigger for bumpfire, it would also not be considered illegal.I would not put a dowel in my gun. I do think that comes uncomfortably close to the definition and certainly a generic dowel in that application really smells bad as an MBTA.



If that is the case, does anyone have any thoughts on how we can create such an effective device that does NOT attach to the firearm but can achieve the same level of efficiency and accuracy as an illegal bumpfire stock.We shouldn't go there. Have a good trigger and a fast finger and that's as best as we can do in CA.


There's no court precedents, no written material from DOJ, no real rulings other than some unappealed HellFire busts run thru a trial court.
Plus CA courts are notoriously antigun. Add to that that the broad concept of trigger activator can be sold by a DA as "machinegun-like" esp with the marketing materials from SlideFire and HellFire etc. that will easily aid conviction.

Anyway, your a**, your lawyer fees.

E Pluribus Unum
02-01-2012, 1:53 PM
What's wrong with learning how to bump fire?

No tool required but a finger....

Spend your time and money installing a hair trigger in anything you want to bump fire; problem solved.

IronSights
02-01-2012, 2:21 PM
How about a device that manipulates your trigger finger really really fast? More like a Multi Burst Finger Assembly? I'm sure you guys can come up with a number of more colorful names (and probably applications) for it.

jwkincal
02-01-2012, 2:31 PM
A loop of parachute cord around the shoulder and one of those Chinese finger-traps attached to the free end...

ALSystems
02-01-2012, 6:00 PM
How about a device that manipulates your trigger finger really really fast? More like a Multi Burst Finger Assembly? I'm sure you guys can come up with a number of more colorful names (and probably applications) for it.
Interesting. I'd call it the 'Twitchy Finger'

12voltguy
02-01-2012, 6:08 PM
How about a device that manipulates your trigger finger really really fast? More like a Multi Burst Finger Assembly? I'm sure you guys can come up with a number of more colorful names (and probably applications) for it.

finger BLAST:43:

CrazyPhuD
02-01-2012, 10:54 PM
Interesting. I'd call it the 'Twitchy Finger'

a couple grams of raw caffeine should make your hands shake at a good rate. Granted you probably wouldn't be able to hold the rifle steady but I don't think that's the point!

bigcalidave
02-01-2012, 11:40 PM
How about a device that manipulates your trigger finger really really fast? More like a Multi Burst Finger Assembly? I'm sure you guys can come up with a number of more colorful names (and probably applications) for it.

hey wait, that's good. What if it doesn't touch the gun at all? What if you use those electric muscle stimulators in the right spots on your hand and make your finger twitch at superhuman speed? :)

IntoForever
02-01-2012, 11:46 PM
A loop of parachute cord around the shoulder and one of those Chinese finger-traps attached to the free end...

I'd call it "the finger banger".
In reality, I'd pass on being the test case.

E Pluribus Unum
02-02-2012, 1:02 AM
You guys are missing the point....

A buddy of mine tied a shoe string around the opprod of his M1 Garand in such a way that when one pulled on the string with a keychain ring, it shot full auto.

He was impressed. I promptly left the area as I said "Congratulations you idiot.... you just risked both of our gun rights for life..."

Paperclips, when placed in certain ways, can cause certain rifles to fire in bursts...

All of these things, while arguably fun or entertaining, are highly illegal. ANYTHING... be it modified shoe laces, paperclips, or any other device that makes a gun fire in full auto is constructive possession of a full auto weapon under federal law if in the same location as the rifle it fits.

Why would you guys even daydream about this stuff?? It is made of radioactive unobtanium. The mere daydreaming of such things might entice others to do something stupid. Even if you are RIGHT, you don't even want to be arrested for something like this, because it is very expensive to fight and Calguns is not likely to touch it due to it's radioactive tendency.

If you want full auto:

1) move to a state that allows it

2) put a hair trigger in your rifle and learn to bump fire.

Anything else is Russian roulette.

gunsandrockets
02-02-2012, 1:45 AM
I've found that proper use of the sling aids bump-fire immensely. Does that make the sling an illegal "multi-burst trigger activator"? In this crazy state, it probably does.

Take a typical semi-auto Kalashnikov and adjust the sling so that the rifle hangs at waist level, parallel to the ground, and flat against your body. The trick is the sling supports all the weight of the rifle instead of your arms. This makes bump firing much more predictable and accurate.

So when ready to fire, the left hand grasps the top of the handguard (not the bottom), and applies slight forward and downward pressure to the rifle, while the trigger finger of the right hand is held rigidly inside the trigger guard and motionless relative to your body. The left arm by applying constant forward pressure acts as the spring of the system. And the tension between the left arm and sling controls the pointing of the rifle.

Now I would argue that using the sling in such a way does not "increase the rate of fire" as the law defines the "multi-burst trigger activator", and therefore such use of a sling is not illegal. What the sling does do is make the fire more accurate. After all, anyone with a little practice can bump-fire a Kalashnikov without using a sling.

compulsivegunbuyer
02-02-2012, 7:56 AM
A heavy trigger makes it easier to bumpfire. With a little practice, I was bumpfiring my stock trigger AR from the shoulder with ease. It's cool for about 20 minutes, or $300 in ammo, whichever comes first.

1911su16b870
02-02-2012, 9:29 AM
What's wrong with learning how to bump fire?

No tool required but a finger....

Spend your time and money installing a hair trigger in anything you want to bump fire; problem solved.

^+1 this...skill > hardware

jimx
02-02-2012, 10:22 AM
2) put a hair trigger in your rifle and learn to bump fire.

Anything else is Russian roulette.

Imho putting a hair trigger in your rifle “is Russian roulette”.

Experimentalist
02-02-2012, 10:53 AM
How about a device that manipulates your trigger finger really really fast? More like a Multi Burst Finger Assembly? I'm sure you guys can come up with a number of more colorful names (and probably applications) for it.

Yep, it's called Caffeine. :)

vta
02-02-2012, 4:04 PM
I am coming more from the perspective of product development so we can make it legal and fun for everyone. Sure learning to bump fire is one way but that is like saying a red dot its unnecessary because of iron sights. In the same way bullet buttons have made all of our gun collections more exciting. I think the concept of 'attachment' to the rifle can be define by the same way a bullet button tool is defined. A magnet is a no go while a gpik is fair game. I'm thinking a product can be developed that a shooter can carry as a bullet button tool that also happens to assist in bump firing. a CA legal rifle multitool so to speak. Since it is not attached for the purpose of a bullet button tool, it would be hard for a prosecutor to argue that as a bump firing tool that it is attached in anyway.

Lets think outside the box of this one instead of confining ourselves to what is obvious. The product would be marketed as a bullet button tool and not a MBTA. As it is clearly defined in the PC that a MBTA could be attached to a firearm which this product in concept would never be able to do that.

bwiese
02-02-2012, 4:17 PM
I am coming more from the perspective of product development so we can make it legal and fun for everyone. Sure learning to bump fire is one way but that is like saying a red dot its unnecessary because of iron sights. In the same way bullet buttons have made all of our gun collections more exciting. I think the concept of 'attachment' to the rifle can be define by the same way a bullet button tool is defined. A magnet is a no go while a gpik is fair game. I'm thinking a product can be developed that a shooter can carry as a bullet button tool that also happens to assist in bump firing. a CA legal rifle multitool so to speak. Since it is not attached for the purpose of a bullet button tool, it would be hard for a prosecutor to argue that as a bump firing tool that it is attached in anyway.

Lets think outside the box of this one instead of confining ourselves to what is obvious.


Let's frigging NOT.

The 12020(c)(23) definitions are broad enough you're gonna get someone in jail for a BS toy that has no RKBA or real shooting value.

Unless, sonny, you're ready to pay their legal bills and compensate them (somehow) for felony convictions.

Thinking outside the box is fine.

Thinking with your head in the toilet is a whole 'nuther thing.

vta
02-02-2012, 4:43 PM
Let's frigging NOT.

The 12020(c)(23) definitions are broad enough you're gonna get someone in jail for a BS toy that has no RKBA or real shooting value.

Unless, sonny, you're ready to pay their legal bills and compensate them (somehow) for felony convictions.

Thinking outside the box is fine.

Thinking with your head in the toilet is a whole 'nuther thing.

Sonny? Really? there its no need for condescending tone in talking about a concept that has no tangible product currently associated with it. RKBA is not about most of the bs we have to deal with in this state. how many people were arrested wrongfully in 2005 because the state had no understanding of OLL based ARs? Without them and organizations like calguns, would law enforcement have the knowledge they have today about it? RKBA It is a federal concept only limited by our state legislators. shooting value? what exactly is your definition of shooting value? how does ones shooting value have anything to do with it? You dont think the popularity of the slide fire around the country speaks any volume of what kinds of recreational shooting value bump firing has? Can you hear what i'm saying, sport, or is my head too far down the john? Champ.

stix213
02-02-2012, 4:49 PM
Sonny? Really? there its no need for condescending tone in talking about a concept that has no tangible product currently associated with it. RKBA is not about most of the bs we have to deal with in this state. how many people were arrested wrongfully in 2005 because the state had no understanding of OLL based ARs? Without them and organizations like calguns, would law enforcement have the knowledge they have today about it? RKBA It is a federal concept only limited by our state legislators. shooting value? what exactly is your definition of shooting value? how does ones shooting value have anything to do with it? You dont think the popularity of the slide fire around the country speaks any volume of what kinds of recreational shooting value bump firing has? Can you hear what in saying, sport, or is my head too far down the john? Champ.

He's just trying to make sure he is getting his point across, and he genuinely has the best interests of CA gun owners at heart (as in keeping everyone out of jail). Stay civil

vta
02-02-2012, 4:51 PM
He's just trying to make sure he is getting his point across, and he genuinely has the best interests of CA gun owners at heart (as in keeping everyone out of jail). Stay civil

I clearly intended to stay civil. I dont doubt his intentions but where else do you think a hypothetical discussion like this can go on if not here? We are not looking for people to slap our hands when only ideas are being tossed around and clearly there is no intent on anyones part to break the law. accusations of me getting someone convicted of a felony because of this thread is ludicrous. We may in the end find out that it indeed scrapes too deep into the surface of the law but there is no need to play big brother at this stage.

He said so himself, there have been no prior convictions or any court rulings on 12020c23.