PDA

View Full Version : cal gun lawd and Indian reservation? 's


F8ality
02-01-2012, 9:59 AM
Taking a class that will be on an Indian reservation, do the BS California laws apply being is they are a sovereign nation, federal land, so exempt from state law correct? And no I'm not talking any NFA weapons or alike I'm asking specifically related to the bullet buttons and 10rd mags.

Thanks for any help ans info.

jester7500
02-01-2012, 10:07 AM
I was just searching for this topic but couldn't find anything. I'd like to know as well...

Ron-Solo
02-01-2012, 10:08 AM
In most cases, California laws apply on reservations.

lhecker51
02-01-2012, 10:17 AM
In most cases, California laws apply on reservations. Agreed. There are exceptions though. It all depends on the tribes agreements with the state. Not all tribes come under state laws and must specifically agree to this. Normally it is a compromise.

Decoligny
02-01-2012, 10:36 AM
Your best bet for accurate information on any specific Indian reservation is to contact the Tribal government and ask them.

Purple K
02-01-2012, 1:54 PM
The Federal PL280 dictates that the reservations must observe State and Local laws. Any tribal laws enacted by a tribal council only apply to the tribes members, not visitors. State firearms statutes still apply on tribal lands.

colddeadhands
02-01-2012, 5:02 PM
I would call ahead and ask the reservation people. When i got my NV ccw we were told in the class that soverign nation means no 2A. The instructors talked about people having thier guns taken by the police on the pyramid lake reservation and never getting them back. It might just be fud, but I wouldnt want to risk my guns.

Hooligan
02-01-2012, 6:02 PM
Pyramid Lake has a no guns rule! They have a pretty extensive website detailing their rules. Unless you are a tribal member I would not take them.

(This was as of last year, I was looking into places to organize a group shoot and thought of the range near there, using Pyramid as a place to group camp. So, yes I have read their rules.)

sfbadger
02-01-2012, 6:27 PM
I would call ahead and ask the reservation people. When i got my NV ccw we were told in the class that soverign nation means no 2A. The instructors talked about people having thier guns taken by the police on the pyramid lake reservation and never getting them back. It might just be fud, but I wouldnt want to risk my guns.

That is NOT fud, that is absolutely true. Same with some reservations in Oklahoma and your CCW means nothing to them.

Purple K
02-01-2012, 6:30 PM
The "Soveriegn Nation" thing is FUD spread by the tribes. To be a sovereign nation they'd need to have their own constitution, currency, embassies, military, etc, etc, etc.

Neptune
02-01-2012, 6:44 PM
The "Soveriegn Nation" thing is FUD spread by the tribes. To be a sovereign nation they'd need to have their own constitution, currency, embassies, military, etc, etc, etc.

No, they are sovereign nations...to an extent. They abide by the Federal laws, and some state and local laws. The Sheriff can only come on tribal property with permission, and does so to take people to jail, etc. when requested, but can't come on the property otherwise.

We were doing work on the Thunder Valley job in Lincoln/Roseville area, and a guy got pissed off and called CalOSHA. They showed up, saw it was a casino, and said, "Later. Call FedOSHA." They left at that point because the reservation is under FedOSHA rules.

They have a lot of different rules and follow a different set of laws than the rest of us. When I lived by a reservation in Oregon, the Tribal Police would come into town and take custody of their folks when an arrest was made by the local cops.

They are also have their own court systems, or work with other tribes in a combined system and work under Tribal and Federal Court system rules which take culture and tradition into account on top of the standard laws. If you get arrested on a reservation, you could end up in a county, tribal, or Federal court dependent on the reservation and it's arrangements.




__

Purple K
02-01-2012, 8:07 PM
Neptune... You are wrong! They are bound by ALL laws. They don't get to pick and choose which ones they want to follow. Yours is a prime example of the effectiveness of the FUD that they've spread for years. People have heard it for so long that they accept it as fact.

paul0660
02-01-2012, 8:14 PM
Your best bet for accurate information on any specific Indian reservation is to contact the Tribal government and ask them.

And, being as knowlegable as a LGS, they will say no, while being clueless.

Dr.Lou
02-01-2012, 10:16 PM
I would call ahead and ask the reservation people. When i got my NV ccw we were told in the class that soverign nation means no 2A. The instructors talked about people having thier guns taken by the police on the pyramid lake reservation and never getting them back. It might just be fud, but I wouldnt want to risk my guns.

NV isn't one of the 6 Public Law 280 states and their reservations have full soverignty; CA is a PL 280 state therefore the tribes only have limited soverignty.

vincewarde
02-02-2012, 12:18 AM
The Federal PL280 dictates that the reservations must observe State and Local laws. Any tribal laws enacted by a tribal council only apply to the tribes members, not visitors. State firearms statutes still apply on tribal lands.

Wow, that does not make sense to me. Why then, is gaming legal on reservations even when prohibited by state law? I know that they have to work out agreements with the state governments - but those governments may not ban gaming on the reservation. Clearly the tribe has some rights that override state law.

I found this Wikipedia article enlightening: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribal_sovereignty_in_the_United_States

A small portion reads: "In PL280 states (Alaska, California, Minnesota, Nebraska, Oregon, and Wisconsin), the state has been granted criminal and civil adjudicatory jurisdiction over activities in Indian Country." So it would seem that your answer, re: firearms is correct. I wonder if there are special laws involving casinos? Also note that PL280 only applies to 6 states - one of which (Alaska) has no reservations.

In addition, I would be willing to bet that through arrangement with federal or state authorities tribal police on the larger reservations have the ability to enforce laws in cases involving non-indians. Some reservations are larger than some US states.

vincewarde
02-02-2012, 12:28 AM
Neptune... You are wrong! They are bound by ALL laws. They don't get to pick and choose which ones they want to follow. Yours is a prime example of the effectiveness of the FUD that they've spread for years. People have heard it for so long that they accept it as fact.

Then why can they build casinos in states that ban them? After checking the wikipedia article I mentioned above, I found that this is VERY complicated and that the legal situation varies a lot. It does seem clear that state firearms laws apply on CA reservations.

bigcalidave
02-02-2012, 11:18 AM
Because they work out deals that pay the state back millions of dollars of the welfare money that is spent at the casinos of course...

Todd98SE
02-02-2012, 2:33 PM
Neptune... You are wrong! They are bound by ALL laws. They don't get to pick and choose which ones they want to follow. Yours is a prime example of the effectiveness of the FUD that they've spread for years. People have heard it for so long that they accept it as fact.

Actually Neptune is very much correct. Depending on each tribes state compact they do get to pick and choose what they will follow and what they wont. This has less to do with areas dealing with crime and more to do with permits, licenses, human resources issues, etc. I work for a large tribal casino in San Diego and have directly dealt with situations like this. They dont have to follow all state laws but most do to an extent.

Peter.Steele
02-02-2012, 6:33 PM
Neptune... You are wrong! They are bound by ALL laws. They don't get to pick and choose which ones they want to follow. Yours is a prime example of the effectiveness of the FUD that they've spread for years. People have heard it for so long that they accept it as fact.



Nope, you are very much wrong on this.

Real good example of this: power plants. You build them on Indian land, you don't have to worry about California environmental rules. You follow federal limits, which are MUCH easier to meet than California's.

a1c
02-02-2012, 6:38 PM
Grey area. Every tribe has different rules on their rancheria/reservation.

If they don't get along with the local SO - which happens often - it's not always clear cut. Some may even have rules relevant to particular sites - casinos and their amenities, sacred sites, etc.

The only way you can get an answer (assuming they even have one) is, as others have pointed out, by contacting the relevant tribe authorities you have in mind.

Quiet
02-02-2012, 10:49 PM
Then why can they build casinos in states that ban them? After checking the wikipedia article I mentioned above, I found that this is VERY complicated and that the legal situation varies a lot. It does seem clear that state firearms laws apply on CA reservations.

Because the tribe makes a deal with the state.
You let us operate and you get xx% of the income.

Quiet
02-02-2012, 11:04 PM
PL280 affects all the reservations in CA.

It's a complicated mess.

A simplified way of seeing it is...
If the tribe has a Tribal Police (BIA certified/trained LEOs), than they are only enforcing tribal ordiniances & Federal laws.
If the tribe has a Tribal Secutiry (CA issued guard cards, not real LEOs), then CA laws also apply.

Regardless of if they are enforcing CA laws, if they find out you are on reservation property and have firearms (legally CCWing or unloaded/locked container), they will ask/make you leave the reservation. Failure to do so, will result in a tresspassing charge or you being arrested and put in a tribal jail for a couple of weeks until a Federal magistrate shows up.


I know of two reservations in which tribal members possess firearms that are not CA legal (assault weapons & MGs) and are often illegally obtained. But, their attitude is "we don't care, come get them" and they tend to shoot at CA LEOs whenever they come on to the reservation.

The Riverside County Sheriff still has a travel advisory warning for the Soboba Indian Reservation and almost every time they go on to that reservation they end up getting involved in a shooting because the tribal members shoot at them. The Tribal Council Leader for Soboba was recently arrested by the FBI for bribery/rackteering.