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Chriso83
01-31-2012, 9:59 AM
Hello,
I did a search and was not able to find an answer so I am hoping this is the right forum.

I recently purchased a AR15 upper receiver rifle kit that came with a full auto bolt carrier.

A friend checked with CADOJ who said that the full auto bolt carrier is not legal in CA? :facepalm:

Not assuming that CADOJ always gets it right, Is this true that the full auto bolt carrier is illegal in CA?

Another friend, who has more experience in these issues, said the full auto bolt carrier is not a big deal until you have all the other parts assembled to make it a full auto rifle. Is that correct? I am hesitant to believe him. :cool:

Thanks
ChrisO

jamesob
01-31-2012, 10:02 AM
its ok. some people prefer the f/a bolts, i could care less whats in mine.

1BigPea
01-31-2012, 10:06 AM
Hello,
I did a search and was not able to find an answer so I am hoping this is the right forum.

I recently purchased a AR15 upper receiver rifle kit that came with a full auto bolt carrier.

A friend checked with CADOJ who said that the full auto bolt carrier is not legal in CA? :facepalm:

Not assuming that CADOJ always gets it right, Is this true that the full auto bolt carrier is illegal in CA?

Another friend, who has more experience in these issues, said the full auto bolt carrier is not a big deal until you have all the other parts assembled to make it a full auto rifle. Is that correct? I am hesitant to believe him. :cool:

Thanks
ChrisO

It's completely fine to have a FA bolt carrier in your bullet button of featureless rifle.

Sugacookie
01-31-2012, 10:07 AM
Its Legal. GTG

Kauf
01-31-2012, 10:21 AM
its ok. some people prefer the f/a bolts, i could care less whats in mine.

*Couldn't care less. Sorry thats my pet peeve :eek: haha

DigitalWanderer
01-31-2012, 10:31 AM
*Couldn't care less. Sorry thats my pet peeve :eek: haha

Sounds like you could care less. :cool:

motorhead
01-31-2012, 10:39 AM
all aks built from kits have the autosear trip on the bolt carrier. i have heard of some timid souls grinding them off, even in free states, but most don't bother.

Sgt Raven
01-31-2012, 10:48 AM
*Couldn't care less. Sorry thats my pet peeve :eek: haha

I liked the way Thomas as Monte Walsh phrased it. See my sig too.

"You can't have no idea how little I care".

drifter001
01-31-2012, 11:06 AM
Its illegal so u should just send it to me

drifter001
01-31-2012, 11:06 AM
:D jk ure g2g

bwiese
01-31-2012, 11:54 AM
The bolt carrier is not really a F/A only part. A gun can be FA without such a carrier, and the FA carrier does not determine FA status.

CA DOJ has allowed a decade or so more of commercial sales of various guns having such carriers.

A huge number of LEO reg'd AWs which are not FA guns have also been reg'd by the DOJ.

CrazyPhuD
01-31-2012, 1:01 PM
12200. The term "machinegun" as used in this chapter means any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can readily be restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger. The term shall also include the frame or receiver of any such weapon, any part designed and intended solely and exclusively, or combination of parts designed and intended, for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun, and any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person. The term also includes any weapon deemed by the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms as readily convertible to a machinegun under Chapter 53 (commencing with Section 5801) of Title 26 of the United States Code.

A full auto bolt isn't designed to convert a semi-auto gun to a full auto gun(much less solely). It both a semi-auto piece and a full auto piece. It just has no additional function in a semi-auto piece. To really get into trouble you would need all of the rest of the parts and modifications needed to convert a gun to full auto in your possession. At which point you've already earned a trip to club fed much less the state violation.

Could a DA charge you? Sure you can get charged for anything, but they shouldn't win, especially when manufacturers sell guns with full auto bolts installed in semi-auto.

Chriso83
01-31-2012, 1:12 PM
Its illegal so u should just send it to me
Man you had me going there! And to think I was on my way out to the mail box with it wrapped in a bright red bow. :eek:

Seriously, thanks everyone for the info. :)

CO

beatstanfurd
01-31-2012, 2:41 PM
Not claiming to know the answer to the OP question, but this article over at AR15.com seems to say otherwise. Is the article flat out wrong?

AR-15 Vs. M16 Parts (http://www.ar15.com/content/legal/AR15-M16Parts/)

Sgt Raven
01-31-2012, 2:56 PM
Not claiming to know the answer to the OP question, but this article over at AR15.com seems to say otherwise. Is the article flat out wrong?

AR-15 Vs. M16 Parts (http://www.ar15.com/content/legal/AR15-M16Parts/)

I haven't read that posting there yet. But I've seen a reprint of a letter from BATFE, maybe on ARFCOM too, that stated that a M16 BCG by itself was legal in a S/A AR pattern rifle.

Flopper
01-31-2012, 3:00 PM
Not claiming to know the answer to the OP question, but this article over at AR15.com seems to say otherwise. Is the article flat out wrong?

AR-15 Vs. M16 Parts (http://www.ar15.com/content/legal/AR15-M16Parts/)

That's not what it says.

1BigPea
01-31-2012, 3:31 PM
That's not what it says.

Uh...yeah it does.

Conclusion
As mentioned previously, having M16 parts in you AR does not mean that it will be capable of automatic fire, but it does mean that you could be in violation of the law. The penalties are harsh, and definitely not worth the risks. Check those rifles, and replace any parts that don't belong. Keep in mind that some parts like the bolt carrier, can appear to be M16 and yet actually be legal AR-15 parts... stay legal, and most importantly, stay safe!

Even though it's not illegal that article says you could be...

vintagearms
01-31-2012, 3:40 PM
Not claiming to know the answer to the OP question, but this article over at AR15.com seems to say otherwise. Is the article flat out wrong?

AR-15 Vs. M16 Parts (http://www.ar15.com/content/legal/AR15-M16Parts/)

Yes. It is incorrect. I have a copy of the BATFE letter that staes that a M16 bolt carrier is not illegal, but only a combination of parts including the bolt carriercould be construed as illegal.

beatstanfurd
01-31-2012, 4:40 PM
Yes. It is incorrect. I have a copy of the BATFE letter that staes that a M16 bolt carrier is not illegal, but only a combination of parts including the bolt carriercould be construed as illegal.

Can we get a copy of the letter posted?

ADH
01-31-2012, 5:14 PM
Can we get a copy of the letter posted?

I believe this is the droid you're looking for;

It is not unlawful to utilize a M16 machinegun bolt carrier in a semiautomatic AR15 type rifle.

http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/ATF%20M16%20Letter.pdf

beatstanfurd
01-31-2012, 5:25 PM
I believe this is the droid you're looking for;



http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/ATF%20M16%20Letter.pdf

Thank you

6172crew
01-31-2012, 6:10 PM
Hello,
I did a search and was not able to find an answer so I am hoping this is the right forum.

I recently purchased a AR15 upper receiver rifle kit that came with a full auto bolt carrier.

A friend checked with CADOJ who said that the full auto bolt carrier is not legal in CA? :facepalm:

Not assuming that CADOJ always gets it right, Is this true that the full auto bolt carrier is illegal in CA?

Another friend, who has more experience in these issues, said the full auto bolt carrier is not a big deal until you have all the other parts assembled to make it a full auto rifle. Is that correct? I am hesitant to believe him. :cool:

Thanks
ChrisO

I will trade you a brand new Semi-Auto Armalite carrier if it bothers you. I actually need FA ones for my machine gun.

Code7inOaktown
01-31-2012, 6:26 PM
Was it for a DIAS? I have read possession of one is enough to get you in the got seat.

Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk

Dreaded Claymore
01-31-2012, 6:34 PM
EDIT: I probably don't know what I'm talking about (see quote of this post below).

For perspective, lots of people on this forum own rifles or uppers by BCM, which generally include heavy "full-auto" bolt carriers. BCM has sold thousands of these things in California. They'd catch hell from the State and Feds if these things were illegal.

See this page (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-Bolt-Carrier-Group-MPI-Auto-M16-p/bcm%20bolt%20carrier%20group%20auto%20mp.htm) on BCM's web store.

Sgt Raven
01-31-2012, 7:07 PM
"Full-auto bolt carrier" merely describes a bolt carrier that is heavy. A rifle that can actually fire full-auto or burst needs a heavier bolt carrier to bring the rate of fire down to a more managable level and to prevent the inside of the gun from getting too beat up.

The design of a "full-auto" bolt carrier actually doesn't play any part in making the rifle fire full-auto. Accordingly it's not a "machine gun part" legally.

For perspective, lots of people on this forum own rifles or uppers by BCM, which generally include heavy "full-auto" bolt carriers. BCM has sold thousands of these things in California. They'd catch hell from the State and Feds if these things were illegal.

See this page (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-Bolt-Carrier-Group-MPI-Auto-M16-p/bcm%20bolt%20carrier%20group%20auto%20mp.htm) on BCM's web store.

WRONG, try again. You must not know how the system works.
When the safety is put in the auto position the discontector no longer causes the hammer to be caught.
The auto sear catches the other hook on the auto hammer.
As the FA BCG travels forward the part of it that's ground away on a SA BCG trips the auto sear and releases the hammer.

That's a simplified version of what happens.

rjf
01-31-2012, 7:16 PM
Legal question from the BATF letter ^^^

If the AR15 will only fire one round per trigger pull, it is not a machine gun. Regardless of the origin of the parts?

Hypo: High shelf lower (semi only) with full M16 FCG and BCG except for the auto sear, will only operate as a semi auto and is legally not a machine gun.

Meaning all dual use FA/SA parts are legal?

reggie 00
01-31-2012, 7:26 PM
I just read an article in a magazine that stated some people use the Heavier FA BCG in a Semi to dampen the recoil of the bolt.

They mentioned it was a common practice in some of the higher end models.

INDABZ
01-31-2012, 7:33 PM
Legal question from the BATF letter ^^^

If the AR15 will only fire one round per trigger pull, it is not a machine gun. Regardless of the origin of the parts?

Hypo: High shelf lower (semi only) with full M16 FCG and BCG except for the auto sear, will only operate as a semi auto and is legally not a machine gun.

Meaning all dual use FA/SA parts are legal?

In a word NO.....

I would use a carrier only....no other fire control parts from the M-16...

You would be headed for a major headache if you did...

jamesob
01-31-2012, 10:31 PM
*Couldn't care less. Sorry thats my pet peeve :eek: haha

I could care less, but I don't.

1859sharps
02-01-2012, 6:55 AM
The "full auto" bolt carrier is what the rifles were originally designed to use. They are technically the correct part.

In the 90's to try and get some heat off them, AR manufactures created and started using a "semi auto" bold carrier. It was being claimed that it was just a matter of minutes and a couple hand tools to make a semi auto AR into a full auto. The "semi auto" carrier was part of their "answer" to this problem.

jdberger
02-01-2012, 9:44 AM
well... i actually know someone who was prosecuted back in the 90's for possession of M16 fire control parts. it wasn't in a gun, it was in his pocket. just bad luck i guess, he was stopped for something and patted down when he had the parts on him. maybe there is a legal difference between having an M16 hammer versus an M16 bolt carrier, but makes you think. since all you have to do is ground down a little metal, i'd rather be on the safe side just in case.

Interesting story.

Could you please provide more details? Exactly which M16 fire control parts did he have in his pocket? Was he in possession of an AR pattern rifle at the time, etc.

Simple possession of an M16 sear, hammer and trigger isn't a crime if I don't possess/own a rifle to put them in. (Yes - I understand what constructive possession is)

george223
02-01-2012, 12:47 PM
I noticed at the gun show (OC) this weekend a lot of F/A capable uppers. Didn't see anybody getting arrested.

bwiese
02-01-2012, 12:52 PM
Simple possession of an M16 sear, hammer and trigger isn't a crime if I don't possess/own a rifle to put them in. (Yes - I understand what constructive possession is)

See (old PC) 12200PC et seq - the CP definition kinda includes possession of what might be regarded as exclusively MG parts as also being a MG itself.

Sgt Raven
02-01-2012, 1:09 PM
See (old PC) 12200PC et seq - the CP definition kinda includes possession of what might be regarded as exclusively MG parts as also being a MG itself.

Yep, there's a difference between Fed law and Ca State law.

Flopper
02-01-2012, 2:25 PM
That's not what it says.

Uh...yeah it does.

Even though it's not illegal that article says you could be...

:facepalm:

Keep in mind that some parts like the bolt carrier, can appear to be M16 and yet actually be legal AR-15 parts

You realize that's in your own post, don't you?

No apology necessary.

TempleKnight
02-01-2012, 4:56 PM
Legal question from the BATF letter ^^^

If the AR15 will only fire one round per trigger pull, it is not a machine gun. Regardless of the origin of the parts?

Hypo: High shelf lower (semi only) with full M16 FCG and BCG except for the auto sear, will only operate as a semi auto and is legally not a machine gun.

Meaning all dual use FA/SA parts are legal?

I've seen a lot of AR's (usually with after-market triggers) that will double or triple ocassionally. If none of the parts are M16 FCG, they had a malfunction. If any of the parts are M16 FCG, it's now a machine gun.

bwiese
02-01-2012, 8:18 PM
I've seen a lot of AR's (usually with after-market triggers) that will double or triple ocassionally. If none of the parts are M16 FCG, they had a malfunction. If any of the parts are M16 FCG, it's now a machine gun.

A distinction without a difference.

A malf'ing AR can be regarded as an MG esp if you tolerate it and don't remedy it immediately.

If you have doubling, disassemble the gun, get rid of the problem FCG parts and maybe firing pin too (overlong?).

IMMEDIATELY.

THERE IS NO OTHER CORRECT ANSWER.

A certain Mr. Olofson didn't observe the above, and knowingly continued to possess & sold such a malfunctioning gun, and he is now in Fed prison.

Remember that both Fed law and entirely separate CA law apply to MG status.

rjf
02-01-2012, 9:48 PM
The atf letter exhibited previously, stated that dual use M16 parts are not prohibited. That would mean only the auto sear assembly is a single use Full Auto part.

The OLL receivers are made high shelf which would require machine work to fit the full auto sear and drill the 3rd hole to pin it in.

An OLL receiver with M16 parts and no auto sear is simply a semi auto firearm that fires one round with a single trigger pull.

Any semi auto firearm in poor or worn condition, or improperly lubricated, that fires more than one round with a single trigger pull is a problem and needs to be remedied immediately.

I understand CYA, but where am I wrong?

Sgt Raven
02-01-2012, 10:09 PM
The atf letter exhibited previously, stated that dual use M16 parts are not prohibited. That would mean only the auto sear assembly is a single use Full Auto part.

The OLL receivers are made high shelf which would require machine work to fit the full auto sear and drill the 3rd hole to pin it in.

An OLL receiver with M16 parts and no auto sear is simply a semi auto firearm that fires one round with a single trigger pull.

Any semi auto firearm in poor or worn condition, or improperly lubricated, that fires more than one round with a single trigger pull is a problem and needs to be remedied immediately.

I understand CYA, but where am I wrong?

1. Not OLLs are 'high shelf'.
2. I don't remember if a 'high shelf' lower will work with a 'lightening link'.
3. a 'low shelf' OLL + M16 FCG + DIAS = MG.
4. Since all you need to add is a DIAS or Lightening Link once you have the rest of the M16 FCG minus the auto sear, see (5.)
5. IIRC BATFE now considers M16 trigger-hammer-safety in a AR-15 a MG.

SWalt
02-01-2012, 11:17 PM
A distinction without a difference.

A malf'ing AR can be regarded as an MG esp if you tolerate it and don't remedy it immediately.

If you have doubling, disassemble the gun, get rid of the problem FCG parts and maybe firing pin too (overlong?).

IMMEDIATELY.

THERE IS NO OTHER CORRECT ANSWER.

A certain Mr. Olofson didn't observe the above, and knowingly continued to possess & sold such a malfunctioning gun, and he is now in Fed prison.

Remember that both Fed law and entirely separate CA law apply to MG status.

And here ya go.....heres a link....

http://youtu.be/M4qnH-_in0s

Flopper
02-02-2012, 11:51 AM
The OLL receivers are made high shelf which would require machine work to fit the full auto sear and drill the 3rd hole to pin it in.

I know of at least one OLL that is low shelf and I would assume there are many more.

rjf
02-02-2012, 7:17 PM
http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5320-8/atf-p-5320-8-appendix-b.pdf

Definitely states the auto sear is illegal in an AR 15. The other parts they simply warn against trying to infer a law prohibiting them.

atf reinterates the definition of machine gun, which I take as meaning, if the M16 parts do not enable the rifle to rock n roll they are ok. CYA is the best policy, but we shouldn't let them create FUD.

My statement about OLLs only being high shelf was simply wrong.

straightshot
02-02-2012, 9:48 PM
Sarge is absolutely correct. I myself ran into the same predicament a while ago trying to decide between BCGs.. In the F/A BCGs, both the top and bottom lugs are the same length whereas the S/A BCG's bottom lug is milled back further than the top so that it does not trip the sear.

Please see helpful link below:
http://www.olyarms.com/index.php?Itemid=42&id=29&option=com_content&task=view

WRONG, try again. You must not know how the system works.
When the safety is put in the auto position the discontector no longer causes the hammer to be caught.
The auto sear catches the other hook on the auto hammer.
As the FA BCG travels forward the part of it that's ground away on a SA BCG trips the auto sear and releases the hammer.

That's a simplified version of what happens.

1859sharps
02-03-2012, 8:32 AM
I think it is very important to remember. the whole "full auto" vs "semi auto" bolt carrier is a side affect of politics and the we just kicked big tobacco butt in court now lets go after the gun manufactures action in the 90s.

There was a lot of hype about how easy it was to allegedly convert a AR15 to full auto. To look like "they" were doing something and to try and avoid costly law suites "they" came up with the "semi" auto carrier group. They being the very limited number of commercial AR type rifle manufactures of the time.

I personally do NOT remember any ATF ruling or law or anything like that mandating the creation of the "semi" auto carrier group.

As for the "full auto" fire control parts being used in an AR type rifle...If you put "full auto" parts in a AR type rifle expect it to behave like a "full auto" in some fashion and when it does, expect to get into trouble.

But don't confuse the above with proper semi auto fire control parts malfunctioning. IF you have proper semi auto parts combined with a "full auto" carrier and there is a malfunction that allows more than one round to fire with a single pull of the trigger there is NO reason to fear getting in trouble IF you do the responsible thing. which is to stop using the rifle and get it repaired.

The ATF, local LEO etc all understand that parts wear out, or are defective from the get go sometimes. If you do the responsible thing there is no reason to expect trouble. And in the off chance they do come after you, if you were on the up and up. Proper semi auto control parts that malfunctioned, and you stopped using the rifle in question and sought repairs right way, yet they still came after you...when the dust settles I hope you enjoy that nice fat settlement that lets you shoot all day long and buy any gun you could ever want.

gidddy169
02-03-2012, 4:15 PM
http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5320-8/atf-p-5320-8-appendix-b.pdf

Definitely states the auto sear is illegal in an AR 15. The other parts they simply warn against trying to infer a law prohibiting them.

atf reinterates the definition of machine gun, which I take as meaning, if the M16 parts do not enable the rifle to rock n roll they are ok. CYA is the best policy, but we shouldn't let them create FUD.

My statement about OLLs only being high shelf was simply wrong.

If you use a full auto FCG you can potentially go full auto especially if using the full auto selector it can fire auto without the auto sear holding the hammer back. It would depend on a lot of things lite primers, long firing pin etc. You do not want to do this unless you see prison as a great place.

Seesm
02-04-2012, 1:53 AM
From all I have learned the only things that are a no no is the "extra" hole and the auto sear... I mean how many kits both for AK and AR get shipped in to CA and you cash and carry these... The rest are just semi UNLESS you have the auto sear and the "extra" hole.. I am NOT sure but it does make sense... CGN lawyers what say ye?

vantec08
02-04-2012, 7:03 AM
At the last Great Western Show (Pomona), a vendor had a full-auto AK bolt carrier displayed and was arrested. DOJ will tell you the auto bolt carrier is "illegal" and subject to prosecution, but AR bolt carriers are common at gun shows etc.

Seesm
02-04-2012, 11:29 AM
At the last Great Western Show (Pomona), a vendor had a full-auto AK bolt carrier displayed and was arrested. DOJ will tell you the auto bolt carrier is "illegal" and subject to prosecution, but AR bolt carriers are common at gun shows etc.

^really?? I am not questioned you as someone probably told you this... Always more to the story... I'd like to see the PC that states it's illegal... Again I was explained if you do not have the auto sear and extra hole your GTG if it DOES NOT go FA it is NOT FULL AUTO... yes no or maybe... Again anyone who knows for sure?

george223
02-05-2012, 11:55 AM
If you use a full auto FCG you can potentially go full auto especially if using the full auto selector it can fire auto without the auto sear holding the hammer back. It would depend on a lot of things lite primers, long firing pin etc. You do not want to do this unless you see prison as a great place.

Correct. Not only illegal, but it is also very unsafe to use a f/a selector switch without the f/a sear. I've seen examples at gun shows of upper receivers with the sides blown out due to hammer follow.

At the last Great Western Show (Pomona), a vendor had a full-auto AK bolt carrier displayed and was arrested. DOJ will tell you the auto bolt carrier is "illegal" and subject to prosecution, but AR bolt carriers are common at gun shows etc.

There has to be more to this story. If not all, most imported AK kits out there come with a f/a bolt carriers. If this story were true, there are a lot of felons out there.

jdberger
02-05-2012, 12:14 PM
At the last Great Western Show (Pomona), a vendor had a full-auto AK bolt carrier displayed and was arrested. DOJ will tell you the auto bolt carrier is "illegal" and subject to prosecution, but AR bolt carriers are common at gun shows etc.

This reminds me that I need to discuss this with the lawyer that handled this. I'll see him in late February. I'm pretty sure that there was more to the story.

motorhead
02-05-2012, 1:53 PM
bill called it earlier, PARTS EXCLUSIVE TO F/A. semis don't have an autosear. they can have a bolt with the trip. in an ak, the disconnector is different. tail=jail. likewise, thou shalt not drill the evil third hole. all featurs/parts only used for f/a.

Sgt Raven
02-05-2012, 2:37 PM
bill called it earlier, PARTS EXCLUSIVE TO F/A. semis don't have an autosear. they can have a bolt with the trip. in an ak, the disconnector is different. tail=jail. likewise, thou shalt not drill the evil third hole. all featurs/parts only used for f/a.

Some Colts have the dreaded 3rd hole, but when you open them up there's a block pinned in by the pin in the 3rd hole. :rolleyes:

vantec08
02-05-2012, 3:50 PM
This reminds me that I need to discuss this with the lawyer that handled this. I'll see him in late February. I'm pretty sure that there was more to the story.

I had just purchased a couple small parts from that vendor and was looking over his assortment of recoil springs when I heard a voice say "sir, please step away from the table." It was local bluesuits, they hooked the guy up and took the bolt carrier.