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View Full Version : Sting operation shuts down Compton gun store


ask80
03-22-2007, 11:56 AM
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-guns23mar23,0,1330218.story?coll=la-home-headlines

Federal authorities and Los Angeles County sheriffs officials today shut down a well-known Compton gun store, culminating a two-month sting operation.

Arrested at their homes early today were Stephen Patrick Virgilio, 36, of Huntington Beach, and Carlos Rodriguez Castellanos, 52, of Downey, on federal charges of knowingly selling firearms to undercover officers posing as felons through "straw buyers," according to sheriffs officials.

Virgilio is the son of the owners of Boulevard Auto, a fortress of a gun store on Long Beach Boulevard. Castellanos is an employee of the store.

Following the early morning arrests, federal agents executed search and seizure warrants at the Compton store as well as at a sister store in Oak View, near Ojai. Thousands of guns as well as thousands of rounds of ammunition will be cataloged at the two stores in a process that will take two days, said John A. Torres, special agent in charge with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms.

According to federal authorities, 897 guns from the two stores have been used in crimes or found in the possession of criminal suspects over the past five years. Twenty-nine of those weapons are connected to murder investigations.

Among the weapons allegedly sold to straw buyers at Boulevard Auto are large caliber handguns, Glocks and a semi-automatic rifle.

Law enforcement officials allege that 14 times within the past eight weeks individuals who identified themselves to store workers as felons were advised by the employee to use a girlfriend or friend accompanying them to purchase the weapon.

"It's painfully obvious that they do not care how the gun is going to be used," Assistant Sheriff Doyle Campbell said.

A news conference discussing the arrests and raid is scheduled today for 10 a.m.

Sheriff's officials said they believe shuttering the store will cut off a significant stream of guns to not only local gang members but also a much wider criminal community.

Boulevard Auto has been controversial in the violence-plagued community of Compton for decades. In 1988, Jesse Jackson cited the store as a ready source of Soviet-made AK-47 automatic rifles and Israeli Uzi submachine guns for anyone who has "cash money on Long Beach Boulevard."

At the time, owner Michael Virgilio, who was not charged in today's sting, said he made no apologies for the sales of such weapons, which he estimated were heading off his shelves at a rate of 10 to 15 a week.

Such weapons were later banned for sale in California.

Since then the store has been named by gun control advocates as one of the nation's top problem vendors. In a list compiled by The Americans for Gun Safety Foundation, Boulevard Auto ranked 45th in terms of volume of guns traced to crime, between 1996 and 2000, with 436.

megan.garvey@latimes.com

Guinness
03-22-2007, 12:07 PM
a fortress of a gun store on Long Beach Boulevard.


OMG :eek:

Ofcourse, Fortis (Latin and the base of Fortress) means 'Strong' - It would seem you'd want something strong to deter people from breaking in to gun store..

Rem1492
03-22-2007, 2:21 PM
""a ready source of Soviet-made AK-47 automatic rifles""

wow, no kidding. I want one. Oh wait, Jaxson is lying again. I despise the left and their over hype of LARGE CALIBER AUTOMATIC HIGH CAPACITY etc....... guns.

That being said, I also despise guys who sell guns to people they KNOW should not be owning one, that does not help the responsible approach to 2A freedoms that all you and I donate to, work for and stand up for.

hawk1
03-22-2007, 2:29 PM
I feel no remorse for these guys. They needed to go down. :mad:

Sydwaiz
03-22-2007, 2:31 PM
F em if they were knowingly providing guns to people who couldn't buy them legally.

I work in Compton. How come I didn't know about this place? Probably a good thing.

1911su16b870
03-22-2007, 2:57 PM
Sooo does that also mean the ATF and CA DOJ/LACo Sheriff will arrest and charge the 14 people that made the straw purchases...

formerTexan
03-22-2007, 3:12 PM
Sooo does that also mean the ATF and CA DOJ/LACo Sheriff will arrest and charge the 14 people that made the straw purchases...

don't hold your breath, there were barely any prosecutions of violators (lying on the form 4479 or denied by NICS):
The General Accounting Office has reported that "available information suggested that the number [of Brady-related prosecutions and convictions] is relatively small nationally. DOJ [Dept. of Justice] views Brady as more of a deterrent than a prosecutive mechanism, and ATF stated that most cases referred by ATF field offices to U.S. Attorneys have been declined." The GAO found that during the Brady Act`s first 17 months, only seven individuals were convicted of illegal attempts to buy handguns, three of whom were sentenced to 12-24 months prison or custody, and four of whom were only placed on probation. [B]Of 250 cases referred for prosecution during Brady`s first year, 217 were rejected. ("Implementation of the Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act," Report to the Committee on the Judiciary, U.S. Senate, and the Committee on the Judiciary, U.S. House of Representatives, GAO/GGD-96-22 Gun Control, January 1996, pp. 8, 45)

On Dec. 24, 1997, the Dept. of Justice, citing statistics from the Executive Office of United States Attorneys, stated that during Fiscal Years 1994-1997 only 599 individuals were convicted of providing false information on either federal forms 4473 (used to document retail firearms purchases) or Brady handgun purchase application forms. During this period, a minimum of 75 of those convicted provided false information on Brady forms. (Letter from Acting Assistant Attorney General John C. Keeney to Sen. Richard J. Durbin, D-Ill.)
More at http://www.nraila.org/Issues/FactSheets/Read.aspx?ID=73

tango-52
03-22-2007, 3:22 PM
Sooo does that also mean the ATF and CA DOJ/LACo Sheriff will arrest and charge the 14 people that made the straw purchases...

My reading of the article implies that these 14 were undercover officers. The article states that it was a two month investigation and that there were 14 in the past 8 weeks who identified themselves (i.e. lied) to the store employees and said they were felons.

detcord
03-22-2007, 3:26 PM
so they weren't felons... i wonder if they can arrest someone for having sex with a 30 year old that says shes 17.

elsolo
03-22-2007, 3:48 PM
so they weren't felons... i wonder if they can arrest someone for having sex with a 30 year old that says shes 17.

Since you can get arrested for trying to buy/sell drugs or sex from an undercover cop (who has no intention of delivering such goods), I imagine the DA has a pretty good setup on these guys for selling to cops posing as purported felons.

Surveyor
03-22-2007, 4:20 PM
so they weren't felons... i wonder if they can arrest someone for having sex with a 30 year old that says shes 17.

Uhh, you don't watch "Dateline: To Catch A Predator"? They bust perverts who think that they're talking dirty to a 13y/o girl. I believe they charge them with conspiracy to commit the crime. Probably the same with the gun sting.

mike100
03-22-2007, 4:46 PM
Inner city gunshops are not wanted by the denziens of the ghetto, nor the powers that be. It would seem that whether or not the straw sales are obvious or not, there would probably be a fair amount of girlfriends and family buying guns for others regardless.

I think that a shop in a bad area will have guns with a short time to crime by default. It's a bad business plan to try and stick it out near a rough neighborhood in this state.


ON EDIT: why do gunstores in the 'hood have non gunstore names? It's like admission of the fact that it isn't PC to set up shop there.

Surveyor
03-22-2007, 4:59 PM
If these guys really did sell all of these guns to straw buyers, they should be sent to prison forever. God knows how many people died as a direct result of them selling to felons. Seriously, how many real felons (Gangsters, drug dealers, tweakers, stalkers, the guys that spray bullets from their cars at kids, etc...) did they sell to over the years? And from a practical point of view, WE DON'T NEED THIS KIND OF BAD PRESS! Here we are, beating our brains out trying to preserve our rights and this A-Hole is selling to anyone! If it were one or two cases I wouldn't be so p*ssed off, but 14? We all know that for every bad shop like this we have a hundred good ones like "10%" or "CWS", but that's not what the papers are going to say...:(

Ford8N
03-22-2007, 5:11 PM
How come we don't arrest people who loan or sell cars to people who are obviously drunk or drunks? And do cars cause more death than guns?

HowardW56
03-22-2007, 6:56 PM
I feel no remorse for these guys. They needed to go down. :mad:


I agree. If you have ever been in there ( I was once) you would expect that they were no good.....

But felons will pay whatever they need to to get a gun...

HowardW56
03-22-2007, 6:57 PM
If these guys really did sell all of these guns to straw buyers, they should be sent to prison forever. God knows how many people died as a direct result of them selling to felons. Seriously, how many real felons (Gangsters, drug dealers, tweakers, stalkers, the guys that spray bullets from their cars at kids, etc...) did they sell to over the years? And from a practical point of view, WE DON'T NEED THIS KIND OF BAD PRESS! Here we are, beating our brains out trying to preserve our rights and this A-Hole is selling to anyone! If it were one or two cases I wouldn't be so p*ssed off, but 14? We all know that for every bad shop like this we have a hundred good ones like "10%" or "CWS", but that's not what the papers are going to say...:(


I agree

anonymous
03-22-2007, 6:59 PM
If these guys really did sell all of these guns to straw buyers, they should be sent to prison forever. God knows how many people died as a direct result of them selling to felons. Seriously, how many real felons (Gangsters, drug dealers, tweakers, stalkers, the guys that spray bullets from their cars at kids, etc...) did they sell to over the years? And from a practical point of view, WE DON'T NEED THIS KIND OF BAD PRESS! Here we are, beating our brains out trying to preserve our rights and this A-Hole is selling to anyone! If it were one or two cases I wouldn't be so p*ssed off, but 14? We all know that for every bad shop like this we have a hundred good ones like "10%" or "CWS", but that's not what the papers are going to say...:(

For gosh sakes, settle down! They were safe! They only sold guns to felons that had the pistol grips unscrewed from the receiver and the flash hider removed!

HowardW56
03-22-2007, 7:03 PM
Sooo does that also mean the ATF and CA DOJ/LACo Sheriff will arrest and charge the 14 people that made the straw purchases...


They were probably BATF agents anyway.....

Surveyor
03-22-2007, 7:05 PM
For gosh sakes, settle down! They were safe! They only sold guns to felons that had the pistol grips unscrewed from the receiver and the flash hider removed!

My bad.:D

That means they were unable to "rapid fire without reloading".

HowardW56
03-22-2007, 7:18 PM
For gosh sakes, settle down! They were safe! They only sold guns to felons that had the pistol grips unscrewed from the receiver and the flash hider removed!


I wonder if they had any of those Hollywood revolvers, The ones that will fire 27 shots without reloading....

glockk9mm
03-22-2007, 9:08 PM
I agree. If you have ever been in there ( I was once) you would expect that they were no good.....

But felons will pay whatever they need to to get a gun...

Yep, and a bunch of A**holes if you didn't buy from them when you looked and asked questions. They even told me they didn't allow .223 in their range anymore when i showed-up with my mini-14 that they always allowed me to shoot untill i told them a glock 22 is not worth $690.00. And about 2 minutes later they allowed a ganster shoot his sks. They were well overpriced anyways and they should be put away.

Yankee Clipper
03-22-2007, 9:42 PM
But there are a lot of law abiding citizens in that area that need the protection of a legally purchased firearm. Now that outfit is out of business because of their greed and gross lack of scruples. The people who need the protection from the felons have to travel a lot further to buy their protective firearms. They probably wont do the trip and may end up paying the ultimate price. The wrong people are being cheated here.

big jon
03-22-2007, 10:20 PM
Bad gun store.... I knew them in the 80`s they would sell to anyone... I felt then they were pooping on good gun owners..

1911_sfca
03-23-2007, 1:26 AM
Sounds like this store needed to be shut down for a long time now.

I won't miss it any more than I miss Trader Sports..

NIB
03-23-2007, 1:58 AM
Oh man I went in there a couple of times in the 90's. I thought they had shut down but they had just changed the name. Somehow you just felt the shadiness of that place when you entered. I thought about shooting there since it's only about 15 minutes from my house, but I knew being in that part of town was not a good idea. Even when you were armed it wasn't a good idea.

They use to advertise long ago in a small local paper and I tell you the adds sounded more like they were advertising to the Mexican drug cartels with they're "Cuerno De Chivo" rifles.

blackberg
03-23-2007, 2:22 AM
Ah, shucks, wanted to go shoot there since it so close when my stuff was ready, but oh well, at least the CPT is safer now :cool:

triggerhappy
03-23-2007, 7:33 AM
so they weren't felons... i wonder if they can arrest someone for having sex with a 30 year old that says shes 17.

YOU are the man. That is THE question. Now, the "authorities" say that these guns were used in crimes, but if they DROSed, and if the BUYER was legit (Don't get my Libertarian self going on who decides that), then it seems as if maybe, umm, just maybe, it was the criminals fault? And on that note, were the crimes violent (mala in se) , or were the guns merely present at the time of the police incident (mala prohibita)?

Go figure, a gun store in Compton would sell guns eventually used in crimes. If anything, Compton (and all the other LA area paradises) need more gun shops, not less.

Let me tell you something folks, the powers-that-be do not want honest citizens armed AT ALL in the urban areas. Look at LA and NYC, etc. gun restrictions as an example. If you wish to remain free and un-molested in this urban heaven, you'll need to buy your guns off a truck. On the plus side, there's no waiting period or DROS from these "mobile dealers".

triggerhappy
03-23-2007, 7:43 AM
If these guys really did sell all of these guns to straw buyers, they should be sent to prison forever. God knows how many people died as a direct result of them selling to felons. Seriously, how many real felons (Gangsters, drug dealers, tweakers, stalkers, the guys that spray bullets from their cars at kids, etc...) did they sell to over the years? And from a practical point of view, WE DON'T NEED THIS KIND OF BAD PRESS! Here we are, beating our brains out trying to preserve our rights and this A-Hole is selling to anyone! If it were one or two cases I wouldn't be so p*ssed off, but 14? We all know that for every bad shop like this we have a hundred good ones like "10%" or "CWS", but that's not what the papers are going to say...:(

Umm, did you know that until say, 1968, you could get guns via mail? What was the crime rate then as compared to now? I can still get perfectly functional antique Mausers, Mosins, and Enfields shipped to my door five feet from here. Not one has been used in a crime. If I can get them here, then you can get them just about anywhere, yet, how many are used in violent crime, hmm?


If you want to preserve your rights, you should first know what they are. Is the 2nd amendment about the right to buy from a govt. approved dealer, or to buy them without govt intrusion, period?

eta34
03-23-2007, 7:45 AM
YOU are the man. That is THE question. Now, the "authorities" say that these guns were used in crimes, but if they DROSed, and if the BUYER was legit (Don't get my Libertarian self going on who decides that), then it seems as if maybe, umm, just maybe, it was the criminals fault? And on that note, were the crimes violent (mala in se) , or were the guns merely present at the time of the police incident (mala prohibita)?

Go figure, a gun store in Compton would sell guns eventually used in crimes. If anything, Compton (and all the other LA area paradises) need more gun shops, not less.

Let me tell you something folks, the powers-that-be do not want honest citizens armed AT ALL in the urban areas. Look at LA and NYC, etc. gun restrictions as an example. If you wish to remain free and un-molested in this urban heaven, you'll need to buy your guns off a truck. On the plus side, there's no waiting period or DROS from these "mobile dealers".

OK, let me jump in here. As a cop, I am all for ANY legal citizen purchasing firearms. That means ANY non-violent felon and ANY sane person. However, the sting revealed MULTIPLE straw purchases over a fixed time period. What is the argument here? So straw purchases should be OK?

Nobody is saying that the gun shop owner is responsible for using the guns in crimes. However, if he knowingly engaged in straw purchases, he should go to jail.

I agree that the people of Compton certainly need firearm protection from the thugs that rule that community. However, this shop owner clearly and boldly violated the law, and he will lose his FFL for it. I see no problems here. My sympathy lies with those citizens who now have to travel out of the city to get guns. I also feel sorry for the next gun shop owner who tries to open a shop there, as the city council and mayor will be quite wary due to this incident.

triggerhappy
03-23-2007, 9:27 AM
First, I want to state that I am not attempting to be argumentative here, just so's you know

It must first be proved that the shop knowingly sold these to straw purchasers. I'll give you this, if a shop knowingly does this, then it should then be assumed that they know they are, in fact, selling a weapon to someone who doesn't, for society's sake, need a gun.

If that is the case, I completely agree. My problem is "straw-man" purchases in general. It dictates that only our benevolent government gets to decide who can own, and who can't. That it alone decides who buys, and who doesn't. I might agree with this if it (government) remained within Constitutional boundaries, and if it could figure out which end of a horse you put hay in...

All that said, I shoud say that you seem to be in a minority (per my experience) of cops who differentiate between classes of felons. Good on you for that. Hmm, that kinda sounds patronizing. No offense meant. Sorry.

Since you are in the business, do you think that these guys were really up to no good? I guess what I hadn't thought of, was the notion of them knowingly supplying criminals with weapons. I guess what got me goin was all the posts about what jerks they were, and how it was a good thing that they got busted. Maybe I'm just emotional today? :mad: :D :rolleyes: :confused:

eta34
03-23-2007, 9:45 AM
I can't speak about what kind of people they were. Frankly, in my experience, a lot of gun shop owners are complete a-holes. They are know-it-alls who think they are better than you. That doesn't mean they should lose their FFL.

Regarding the Compton shop, it seems fairly clear that the basis for this whole thing is that they knowingly engaged in straw transactions. I certainly believe the owner should have his day in court.

blackberg
03-23-2007, 9:48 AM
My sympathy lies with those citizens who now have to travel out of the city to get guns. I also feel sorry for the next gun shop owner who tries to open a shop there, as the city council and mayor will be quite wary due to this incident.

As I had stated a while back, the property it sits on is for sale,
its is about 2 acres with the other shops and the asking price $2.25M, i t has been on the market since december.

Wonder if the landlord was the one whjo made the initial call:rolleyes:

Property Description:
Street front free-standing building. Great Retail location. Busy commercial district. Well built concrete block building currently used as Shooting Range and Gun shop. Ample parking.
Possible development on property to the east of parcel - total of over 2 acres is available.

Mag_Rat
03-23-2007, 8:47 PM
Ha! been there a couple of times.The first time I went with a friend he got some bull **** J22. Another time I went I rented a .45 that jammed every shot.The thing that made me not want to go no more is the way overpriced MAK90 rental $50!

Crazed_SS
03-25-2007, 8:16 PM
I got no problem with this.

Not all people involved with guns are "good guys". Just because someone has a gun store, does not mean they're on the up and up. People are always jumping on the cops, even when they seem to get it right. I dont understand what the beef is. Crooked dealers and straw purchasers are one of the main points that the antis use against us.

HowardW56
03-25-2007, 8:23 PM
I got no problem with this.

Not all people involved with guns are "good guys". Just because someone has a gun store, does not mean they're on the up and up. People are always jumping on the cops, even when they seem to get it right. I dont understand what the beef is. Crooked dealers and straw purchasers are one of the main points that the antis use against us.



I'm with you... However there are commissioned sales people at reputable dealers who I wouldn't be surprised if they did whatever it took to make a sale….

TonyM
03-25-2007, 8:40 PM
http://www.nssf.org/share/images/logos/DontLie.jpg

http://www.dontlie.org/

mike100
03-26-2007, 7:20 AM
As I had stated a while back, the property it sits on is for sale,
its is about 2 acres with the other shops and the asking price $2.25M, i t has been on the market since december.

Wonder if the landlord was the one who made the initial call:rolleyes:

This is the most pertinent post made thus far. If it is true, it is the reason. there must be some interesting details about a developer who's brother works for the atf or some such arrangement.

KenpoProfessor
03-26-2007, 7:59 AM
FFL dealers are a lot like cops, there's good and bad, most are good, but those few bad apples are the ones they focus on, especially the MSM. You have to admit, having an FFL license can be good money for those that deal to straw purchasers, it's essentially a backdoor/blackmarket for the guns to street. If you know the drug dealers have money, you charge exhorbitant prices, and they'll pay for the straw purchase, but that won't be what the reciept will read. You really can't blame the FFL's for doing this, or at least those that make a living from firearms, it's really no different from cops shaking down these same drug dealers for money without an arrest, they have mortgages and car payments as well. Sometimes, they can't fight the temptation and slip into the grey. Problem with FFLs doing this is they are a problem for the citizens by putting these guns out. At least when the cops do this, they're not harassing law abiding citizens, they're hampering only those that choose to break the law. Hell, the drug dealers do it to themselves. I gotta admit, I don't mind the cops doing this, makes me feel better knowing they are being vigilant.

Remove the money from the equation, remove the problem, whether it's guns, drugs, or whatever. That being said, I don't believe that having large sums of cash being found in your car or on your person is grounds for keeping this money by the state because they simply THINK you're dealing. They need to prove it in court. It's all a fine line, we just have to find where it starts and ends, and maybe try to widen it and improve the system.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

eta34
03-26-2007, 10:39 AM
FFL dealers are a lot like cops, there's good and bad, most are good, but those few bad apples are the ones they focus on, especially the MSM. You have to admit, having an FFL license can be good money for those that deal to straw purchasers, it's essentially a backdoor/blackmarket for the guns to street. If you know the drug dealers have money, you charge exhorbitant prices, and they'll pay for the straw purchase, but that won't be what the reciept will read. You really can't blame the FFL's for doing this, or at least those that make a living from firearms, it's really no different from cops shaking down these same drug dealers for money without an arrest, they have mortgages and car payments as well. Sometimes, they can't fight the temptation and slip into the grey. Problem with FFLs doing this is they are a problem for the citizens by putting these guns out. At least when the cops do this, they're not harassing law abiding citizens, they're hampering only those that choose to break the law. Hell, the drug dealers do it to themselves. I gotta admit, I don't mind the cops doing this, makes me feel better knowing they are being vigilant.

Remove the money from the equation, remove the problem, whether it's guns, drugs, or whatever. That being said, I don't believe that having large sums of cash being found in your car or on your person is grounds for keeping this money by the state because they simply THINK you're dealing. They need to prove it in court. It's all a fine line, we just have to find where it starts and ends, and maybe try to widen it and improve the system.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


As a cop, I have a HUGE problem with this. Shaking down dope dealers is one thing...that is my job to get these people off of the street. However, "shaking them down for money without an arrest" is not something I practice or condone. It seems as if you are justifying stealing, as long as it is from a drug dealer. Cops who engage in this type of behavior (I personally have never seen it happen, but I am sure there are some of those types out there) are criminals just like the drug dealer.

Now, regarding the seizure of the money. We can't and don't just "keep" the money because we "think" someone is dealing. If/when we seize money, we must leave a property reciept. We have to fill out special forms and have a court hearing regarding the money seizure. If the judge agrees with our position, the money is kept...if not, it gets returned to the suspect.

In my experience, judges are extremely careful when dealing with this type of situation. If we seize money without drugs, we had better have some good explanation as to why we think it is drug related. A hunch simply isn't good enough.

KenpoProfessor
03-26-2007, 10:57 AM
As a cop, I have a HUGE problem with this. Shaking down dope dealers is one thing...that is my job to get these people off of the street. However, "shaking them down for money without an arrest" is not something I practice or condone. It seems as if you are justifying stealing, as long as it is from a drug dealer. Cops who engage in this type of behavior (I personally have never seen it happen, but I am sure there are some of those types out there) are criminals just like the drug dealer.

Now, regarding the seizure of the money. We can't and don't just "keep" the money because we "think" someone is dealing. If/when we seize money, we must leave a property reciept. We have to fill out special forms and have a court hearing regarding the money seizure. If the judge agrees with our position, the money is kept...if not, it gets returned to the suspect.

In my experience, judges are extremely careful when dealing with this type of situation. If we seize money without drugs, we had better have some good explanation as to why we think it is drug related. A hunch simply isn't good enough.

You're one of the good ones, I applaud that, and thank you for your service to the community. Trust me, I'm all for you guys


I was just saying I'm all for shaking down the drug dealers. Am I really advocating another illegal act for an already illegal act, yep? Removing the money removes the element for them to exist (same problem with ILLEGAL aliens, remove the jobs, they won't come here or stay here). If they were robbed continously, they wouldn't be there selling for long. I just as soon legalize and tax the stuff myself, save you guys a helluva lot of hassle trying to chase stupid street kids and putting yourself in danger with that lot. My sympathy for having to deal with them and their ilk, in and out of the court system so many times can really bog down your job, arresting and REarresting the same person for the same crime and they get a slap on the wrist.

I apologize if my text sounded condescending, it was not meant to do so.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

cadurand
03-26-2007, 11:19 AM
You're one of the good ones, I applaud that, and thank you for your service to the community. Trust me, I'm all for you guys


I was just saying I'm all for shaking down the drug dealers. Am I really advocating another illegal act for an already illegal act, yep? Removing the money removes the element for them to exist (same problem with ILLEGAL aliens, remove the jobs, they won't come here or stay here). If they were robbed continously, they wouldn't be there selling for long. I just as soon legalize and tax the stuff myself, save you guys a helluva lot of hassle trying to chase stupid street kids and putting yourself in danger with that lot. My sympathy for having to deal with them and their ilk, in and out of the court system so many times can really bog down your job, arresting and REarresting the same person for the same crime and they get a slap on the wrist.

I apologize if my text sounded condescending, it was not meant to do so.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

It's the definition of drug dealer that scares me. What if a cop finds someone else's prescription in your car one day? Are you OK with him taking your cash as well as the car they found the drugs in? I'm going to guess you wouldn't be OK with that.

It's the unintended consequences of all the people with good intentions that I worry about.

KenpoProfessor
03-26-2007, 11:27 AM
It's the definition of drug dealer that scares me. What if a cop finds someone else's prescription in your car one day? Are you OK with him taking your cash as well as the car they found the drugs in? I'm going to guess you wouldn't be OK with that.

It's the unintended consequences of all the people with good intentions that I worry about.


Hmm, let's see, you're walking downtown anywhere CA and a guy/girl offers to sell you an 8 ball, that would kinda do it for me.

As I said, it's all a very fine line with very little differentiation of what's white and black. To be honest, I don't think it will ever get sorted out.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

Yankee Clipper
03-26-2007, 1:05 PM
Sorry Clyde, I have to disagree with your proposed ethics. If our law enforcement communities drop their ethics standards to match the criminal standards, they won't be doing our society any favors. What you advocate is a common practice of the law agencies in many, if not most, of the countries of South and Central America. Those agencies tend to be corrupt in their dealings with both the criminal and law-abiding alike. I just don't think you'd want that. Even though our law enforcement agencies do sometimes let their human side show and they do (legally) lie to the criminal but expect truth in return, I think the conduct you’re suggesting flies-in-the- face what our community standards require.

You're one of the good ones, I applaud that, and thank you for your service to the community. Trust me, I'm all for you guys I was just saying I'm all for shaking down the drug dealers. Am I really advocating another illegal act for an already illegal act, yep? Removing the money removes the element for them to exist (same problem with ILLEGAL aliens, remove the jobs, they won't come here or stay here). If they were robbed continously, they wouldn't be there selling for long. I just as soon legalize and tax the stuff myself, save you guys a helluva lot of hassle trying to chase stupid street kids and putting yourself in danger with that lot. My sympathy for having to deal with them and their ilk, in and out of the court system so many times can really bog down your job, arresting and REarresting the same person for the same crime and they get a slap on the wrist.
I apologize if my text sounded condescending, it was not meant to do so.
Have a great Kenpo day
Clyde

Surveyor
03-26-2007, 3:18 PM
Umm, did you know that until say, 1968, you could get guns via mail? What was the crime rate then as compared to now? I can still get perfectly functional antique Mausers, Mosins, and Enfields shipped to my door five feet from here. Not one has been used in a crime. If I can get them here, then you can get them just about anywhere, yet, how many are used in violent crime, hmm?


If you want to preserve your rights, you should first know what they are. Is the 2nd amendment about the right to buy from a govt. approved dealer, or to buy them without govt intrusion, period?


(Sorry for the late response, just now checking in.)

As far as purchasing guns through the mail is concerned (without FFL or verification of ID), it sounds like a bad idea. Seriously, do you really want the Patrick Purdys of the world to be able to possess guns? It only took one wacked out racist with a gun (Stockton schoolyard massacre) to ban "Assault Weapons" in CA. If we allow just anyone to own a gun, then we are fools. We should not knowingly arm violent felons or the criminally insane. (After all, if it weren't for them, we wouldn't have guns making the news every night.) The owners of this store are accused of knowingly selling to felons through straw purchasers. That's why I have such a problem with them. I see it like this, if you sell me gasoline for my truck and I drive drunk and kill someone, that's not your fault. Now if I had come in stinking of whiskey when you made the sale, you are now partly responsible. These guys were selling to the gang-banging drug dealers in the 'hood. They knew that. They had a pretty good reason to believe that these guns were intended for criminal activity. They knew better, but they didn't care. No responsible gun owner can justify what they are accused of.

KenpoProfessor
03-26-2007, 3:35 PM
Sorry Clyde, I have to disagree with your proposed ethics. If our law enforcement communities drop their ethics standards to match the criminal standards, they won't be doing our society any favors. What you advocate is a common practice of the law agencies in many, if not most, of the countries of South and Central America. Those agencies tend to be corrupt in their dealings with both the criminal and law-abiding alike. I just don't think you'd want that. Even though our law enforcement agencies do sometimes let their human side show and they do (legally) lie to the criminal but expect truth in return, I think the conduct you’re suggesting flies-in-the- face what our community standards require.


That's OK, I really don't expect many to agree with me, it is kind of an extreme view LOL, but, it's mine and I'll stick with it. But would you really think the way you do if you had a problem in your neighborhood with drug dealers? Let's say you'd been living there for 10 years and raising a child and for whatever reason, your neighborhood starts to turn. Yea, you could organize a neighborhood watch, you can see how well most of those work out. I think MOST have come to the realization that it's time for the neighborhood to take action instead of just allowing the police to do so. But hey, what do I know?

Never the less, in our not so distant past, vigilantism was prevalent, and kept society very orderly. Being branded a horse thief or having your ear half cut off was a pretty good indicator that you were not such a good person, and chances are, they were shunned by society for those actions. The whole idea of putting GPS monitors on convicted pedophiles is not so different from this old idea, only a tad more humane unfortunately.

Rousting criminals is what the cops do, but they are supposed to stay within the boundaries of the law. You and I know sometimes they take it way too far with the no knock warrants served on the wrong house on the word of only a CI, and probably a bag of excrement CI.

It would take a helluva lot more evidence than simple words to prove to me that occasional vigilantism is not effective, by cops or law abiding citizens. Think about why Charles Bronson became so popular, or even Clint Eastwood (do you feel lucky punk?). On the opposite end of the spectrum is Serpico, there's something to it you gotta admit.

And to keep this thread on track, I believe that gun owners and FFLs alike should police our own, we see stupidity everyday and it's up to us to do something about it.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde