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View Full Version : Interesting FFL Experience Today


Leatherneck
01-23-2012, 6:35 PM
Had an interesting recent FFL experience with two different gun shops. I won't mention the names, but here's what happened. I did a handgun PPT transfer at gunshop "A", picking the gun up last week. When I picked it up, we filled out the safe affidavit form after giving them the make and model of my safe, signed all of the paperwork, and left with the handgun. Today, I picked up another handgun from a different PPT at a different gun shop, let's call them gun shop "B", and they said they would not do the safe affidavit, and that I had to have a DOJ approved gun locking device purchased within the last 30 days and have a receipt to prove when it was purchased. They said that this was an ATF requirement. Well, I didn't have to buy the cheap, Chinese POS lock from them, but wouldn't you know it, they did sell them. Only after purchasing it, would they give me the handgun. So, clearly, one of these two gun shops is mistaken and/or breaking the law. Which is it? Is there an ATF requirement to have to buy these POS locks for every handgun, even if I own a huge safe already? Or, is this just designed to generate additional funds for gun shop "B?" If gun shop "B" is mistaken, can anyone point me to the law showing that they were mistaken? I would simply just go to another gun shop, but unfortunately, they are the only shop in the city where I live.

Thanks guys!

ke6guj
01-23-2012, 6:43 PM
shop A was wrong, shop B was correct.

NSR500
01-23-2012, 6:45 PM
CA DOJ requires a CA approved lock purchased within the last 30 days iirc.

Leatherneck
01-23-2012, 6:51 PM
Thanks guys! I could have saved myself the time it took to write this up if I had searched the forum for an answer first. Seems this was covered extensively not that long ago.

Thanks again!

NSR500
01-23-2012, 6:52 PM
I guess the issue is very convoluted. I may have misspoke and it might be the BATFE that requires the lock as discussed here:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=519899

CSACANNONEER
01-23-2012, 6:53 PM
CA DOJ requires a CA approved lock purchased within the last 30 days iirc.

Or a safe affidavit. The problem is that federal law requires a lock to accompany the handgun out the door. The only locks that a Ca FFL can legally accept are those that are Ca approved. So, if shop A accepted your safe affidavit AND provided you with a Ca approved lock, they did right. If your gun at shop B did not come with a Ca approved lock and they did not feel like giving you one, they were correct in requiring you to buy one before releasing the gun to you. The problem here is that Ca law and Federal law come into play here and most FFLs seem to confuse the two. So, some just play it safe and refuse to accept safe affidavits at all and go by Ca's requirement that locks have to be purchased within the last 30 days.

Leatherneck
01-23-2012, 7:07 PM
Neither handgun came with a lock. Both were off-roster PPTs. As I read the post here:

http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/Buying_and_selling_firearms_in_California#Locks.2C _Safes.2C_and_Laws

it states that the safe affidavit is a CA exemption to an individual long gun purchase and would work for handgun purchases, if not for the BATFE requirement for a lock on handguns before going out the door. And since the only lock that a CA FFL can legally allow a handgun to leave the store with has to be an approved lock purchased within the past 30 days. So, yes, we'll have to buy these cheap POS locks for every hangun purchased, unless purchasing within the 30 days since the last lock was purchased, providing that you bring the lock and receipt with you.

keenkeen
01-23-2012, 8:34 PM
I always have 2 CA approved gun locks with a receipt dated within the last 30 days in my car...:o

191145ACP
01-29-2012, 3:12 AM
shop A was wrong, shop B was correct.

Not as I understand it, read DOJ section 12087, it states

"The safety device requirment does not apply to the following:
Transers of firearms to persons who demonstratedd ownership of qualifying gun safe."

Found in Roster of Firearm safety devices Certified for Sale.

halifax
01-29-2012, 6:01 AM
Not as I understand it, read DOJ section 12087, it states

"The safety device requirment does not apply to the following:
Transers of firearms to persons who demonstratedd ownership of qualifying gun safe."

Found in Roster of Firearm safety devices Certified for Sale.

Yes, but you are ignoring the FEDERAL lock requirement for handguns as mention several times here.

18 U.S.C. 922 (z) Secure Gun Storage or Safety Device. (1) In general. Except as provided under paragraph (2), it shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer to sell, deliver, or transfer any handgun to any person other than any person licensed under this chapter, unless the transferee is provided with a secure gun storage or safety device (as defined in section 921 (a)(34)) for that handgun.

ke6guj
01-29-2012, 10:56 AM
Yes, but you are ignoring the FEDERAL lock requirement for handguns as mention several times here.

This.

CenterX
01-29-2012, 11:13 AM
When the Feds audit shop A - shop A will most likely start requiring the lock purchase receipt like shop B.
Though some DOJ auditors will comment to shop owners that they are missing documentation such as shop B. Shop B reduces some paperwork by having the receipt.

Nothing in Fed docs say that a receipt is needed for proof of a qualifying lock. It just makes the paperwork easier for the retail staff.

Not often done - the FFL can make a note in the Comments Section of the DROS that a Project Child Safe Lock from the local police department was given to the handgun recipient at the time of transfer. This requires the FFL to have the free locks on hand in the home/shop - which some do, but I've never seen a retail shop with them.

Roll with it. You will never win a discussion in a retail shop. Even if you show up with half a dozen listed and approved locks in hand, most will not annotate the Comments Section.

Roll with it!

Santa Cruz Armory
01-29-2012, 11:53 AM
This is why our shop does a lock exchange program. Bring in a CA approved lock and we will provide a new CA approved lock with every sale/DROS. Most everyone has a pile of old CA locks laying around.

This just makes it easier to do all the paperwork and no receipt from the last 30 days B.S.

ParallaxTactical.com
01-29-2012, 3:35 PM
This is why our shop does a lock exchange program. Bring in a CA approved lock and we will provide a new CA approved lock with every sale/DROS. Most everyone has a pile of old CA locks laying around.

This just makes it easier to do all the paperwork and no receipt from the last 30 days B.S.

Problem with this is that buyers will start bringing in bicycle locks, random no-name gun locks... your staff will spend all day looking up approved locks. What we do is sell the buyer a lock for $5, on our receipt it states the lock can be returned at any time. Buyers walk out of the shop, put their purchase into the car and then bring back the lock.

kemasa
01-29-2012, 3:38 PM
Problem with this is that buyers will start bringing in bicycle locks, random no-name gun locks... your staff will spend all day looking up approved locks. What we do is sell the buyer a lock for $5, on our receipt it states the lock can be returned at any time. Buyers walk out of the shop, put their purchase into the car and then bring back the lock.

Yes, but the problem with this is the accounting. All the returns have to be kept track of to go against what was sold.

There is no good solution, other than to get the stupid law thrown out.

aghauler
01-30-2012, 2:20 PM
I always have 2 CA approved gun locks with a receipt dated within the last 30 days in my car...:o

Quick and simple answer to the problem. I do also have CA approved locks still in the blister packs and receipt book to make up a new receipt when needed. Last gun I picked up in Sacramento I took a lock labeled "Never Sold" from the Sheriffs Dept (and a receipt) the gunshop wouldn't accept a "Never Sold Lock from LEO" without a current sales receipt, but I saw it coming and was prepared! :rolleyes:

Don Edmondson
01-30-2012, 5:42 PM
In Idaho all new hand guns come with a lock in the box Some long guns come with locks Do new hand guns in California come with locks in the box Don

kemasa
01-30-2012, 5:49 PM
Whether a firearm comes with a lock or not depends on the manufacturer and not all include them. Also, in CA it needs to be on an approved list, so even if there is a lock, it can sometimes be hard to determine if the lock is acceptable or not.

Don Edmondson
01-30-2012, 6:00 PM
Of the last 20 or 25 only one did not have a lock all the hand guns came with locks the last 8 1911's all came with locks colts high standard springfields S&W 41 gsg1911/22 even the 410 revolver ruger usa 1022 savage mk11 Mabe a Idaho thing so I have a lot of new in the wrapper locks Don