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Eddy's Shooting Sports
01-23-2012, 3:17 AM
I've been wondering about this for awhile. Does Big 5 do PPT's. I would think they wouldn't, but they're supposed to. If they don't do them, how do they get away with it?

The other day I spent over an hour dealing with a double PPT, two sellers, one buyer, none of which were in my bound book system, meaning lots of data entry. What a PITA! I don't understand how it is legal for CA to require dealers to do PPT's.

Car dealers don't do transfers, the DMV does! Maybe the DMV should take over this task?

Mstnpete
01-23-2012, 3:32 AM
I believe they do.
A friend goes there for PPT on rifles.

jgraham7897
01-23-2012, 6:53 AM
Maybe the DMV should take over this task?

You take that back and you take that back now! :eek:

Eddy's Shooting Sports
01-23-2012, 7:17 AM
I believe they do.
A friend goes there for PPT on rifles.

Any idea about handguns? I know they don't sell them...

ke6guj
01-23-2012, 7:18 AM
state law requires them to do PPTs on long guns, but since they don't sell handguns, they are not required to do handgun PPTs.

halifax
01-23-2012, 7:19 AM
Any idea about handguns? I know they don't sell them...

No, they don't PPT handguns and aren't required to because they don't sell them.

ke6guj
01-23-2012, 7:24 AM
The other day I spent over an hour dealing with a double PPT, two sellers, one buyer, none of which were in my bound book system, meaning lots of data entry. What a PITA! I don't understand how it is legal for CA to require dealers to do PPT's.
you don't have to do them. just turn in your license. you knew (or should have) known that it was one of the terms of getting to sell firearms in CA.

But, you are looking at this the wrong way. for the $20 that they paid you, you get 4 forced oportunities to sell them something. You get 1 chance each to sell something to the sellers (who probably have cash in pocket from the private party sale) and 2 shots at the buyer. most industries would love to have people required to visit their establishment, and then give them money to boot.

tenpercentfirearms
01-23-2012, 9:07 AM
PPT is all in the way you look at it. You can look at it as an opportunity to serve some customers needs, which might bring them back to spend real money. Or you can look at it as a PITA and treat the customers like a PITA and then they might not come back.

Personally, I treat a PPT like any other customer and try to sell them other things while I am at it.

curvejunkie
01-23-2012, 10:02 AM
But, you are looking at this the wrong way. for the $20 that they paid you, you get 4 forced oportunities to sell them something. You get 1 chance each to sell something to the sellers (who probably have cash in pocket from the private party sale) and 2 shots at the buyer. most industries would love to have people required to visit their establishment, and then give them money to boot.

^ Excellent point....and much agreed with.

Eddy's Shooting Sports
01-24-2012, 3:10 AM
state law requires them to do PPTs on long guns, but since they don't sell handguns, they are not required to do handgun PPTs.

Is there a reference to this on the DOJ site? I don't recall ever seeing it.

Eddy's Shooting Sports
01-24-2012, 3:12 AM
PPT is all in the way you look at it. You can look at it as an opportunity to serve some customers needs, which might bring them back to spend real money. Or you can look at it as a PITA and treat the customers like a PITA and then they might not come back.

Personally, I treat a PPT like any other customer and try to sell them other things while I am at it.

This is the "ideal" way of looking at it, but real world experience isn't so rosy...

Just sayin'

Mssr. Eleganté
01-24-2012, 3:40 AM
Is there a reference to this on the DOJ site? I don't recall ever seeing it.

I'm not sure which part you want the reference for, so I'll post both. Under the old CPC numbering system it is 12071(b)(5) that compels dealers to do PPTs.

12071(b)(5) The licensee shall agree to and shall act properly and promptly in processing firearms transactions pursuant to Section 12082.

and it is 12082(c) that says dealers who don't sell handguns aren't required to do PPTs of handguns.

12082(c) Notwithstanding any other provision of law, a dealer who does not sell, transfer, or keep an inventory of handguns is not required to process private party transfers of handguns.

Sorry, but I don't have an easily searchable Penal Code reference with the new numbering system, so I had to list the old section numbers.

This is the "ideal" way of looking at it, but real world experience isn't so rosy...

Just sayin'

Think of how much more of a PITA it is for the people doing the PPT. They should be able to do the transfer without making any trips to the gun store, without filling out paperwork and without paying $35. They waste time and money just like you. It's part of what dealers and buyers have to put up with when they live in California. Most businesses have to pay for advertising to get potential customers into their stores. Because of the PPT requirements you get people in your store who have a history of buying guns and gun accessories.

tenpercentfirearms
01-24-2012, 6:31 AM
This is the "ideal" way of looking at it, but real world experience isn't so rosy...

Just sayin'

Why isn't it rosy? Customers come in, they want to conduct business, you conduct business. I hate tire kickers more than I dislike PPTs. I am talking true tire kickers that you know aren't going to buy anything, but like to act like they are. It takes a time or two to figure it out or sometimes they will tell you straight up and it always cracks me up "I don't have any money to buy anything, I am just here looking around". Fine, I will go help someone else then. If you are a tire kicker, don't tell me about it because that means I am going to help other people here to spend money, like even a PPT guy.

CSACANNONEER
01-24-2012, 7:02 AM
This is the "ideal" way of looking at it, but real world experience isn't so rosy...

Just sayin'

Thanks. I now know another shop that does not care about potential new customers or customer service. Lucky for me that I don't have to actually experience it first hand. I just won't do ANY bussiness with ANY shop with an attitude like your's. BTW, I grew up and still have a lot of family on the penisula so, I do do bussiness in the area. I do appreciate your honesty on the subject though.

Moto
01-24-2012, 7:24 AM
Thanks. I now know another shop that does not care about potential new customers or customer service. Lucky for me that I don't have to actually experience it first hand. I just won't do ANY bussiness with ANY shop with an attitude like your's. BTW, I grew up and still have a lot of family on the penisula so, I do do bussiness in the area. I do appreciate your honesty on the subject though.

Yeah, it's amazing sometimes how a business actually posts online to complain about "pita" to help a client. If it's something that you " have to do" as part of your industry then it is what it is.

I'm glad to read about some of the other vendors here than view it as an "opportunity" to make additional sales.

For example, I recently did a PPT at a store 60 miles from me. They were so helpful and the process was so smooth that when I go to pick up, i will at least purchase ammo to show my gratitude.

To the OP, don't look at it negatively. Always look at the positives and when that buyer picks up his ppt, you might sell him other things he needs. It doesn't hurt to try , right?

CSACANNONEER
01-24-2012, 7:37 AM
Yeah, it's amazing sometimes how a business actually posts online to complain about "pita" to help a client. If it's something that you " have to do" as part of your industry then it is what it is.

I'm glad to read about some of the other vendors here than view it as an "opportunity" to make additional sales.

For example, I recently did a PPT at a store 60 miles from me. They were so helpful and the process was so smooth that when I go to pick up, i will at least purchase ammo to show my gratitude.

To the OP, don't look at it negatively. Always look at the positives and when that buyer picks up his ppt, you might sell him other things he needs. It doesn't hurt to try , right?

I'm hoping to get out quail hunting this weekend. If I do, I'll stop by 10% Firearms and see if I can give Wes any bussiness. It'll only be 30 miles out of my way and 150miles from my house. But, if I find anything, I won't feel bad if I have to make a second trip to pick it up.

tenpercentfirearms
01-24-2012, 7:53 AM
Thanks. I now know another shop that does not care about potential new customers or customer service. Lucky for me that I don't have to actually experience it first hand. I just won't do ANY bussiness with ANY shop with an attitude like your's. BTW, I grew up and still have a lot of family on the penisula so, I do do bussiness in the area. I do appreciate your honesty on the subject though.

I wouldn't be too harsh on him. Some transactions in general can just be a major PITA. Customers don't have the right documents, don't understand what they are doing, and in general are just a major PITA. If it just happens to be on a PPT, then it is a drag. However, it is part of the business, you just have to deal with it and sometimes you might want to come on here and vent a little.

I wouldn't base much on how an FFL vents in a FFL forum. I would go check the store out for yourself and if you get the attitude in store, then do what you need to.

CSACANNONEER
01-24-2012, 8:00 AM
I wouldn't be too harsh on him. Some transactions in general can just be a major PITA. Customers don't have the right documents, don't understand what they are doing, and in general are just a major PITA. If it just happens to be on a PPT, then it is a drag. However, it is part of the business, you just have to deal with it and sometimes you might want to come on here and vent a little.

I wouldn't base much on how an FFL vents in a FFL forum. I would go check the store out for yourself and if you get the attitude in store, then do what you need to.

Wes,

You're just too damn level headed and diplomatic.

TheExpertish
01-24-2012, 8:36 AM
Wes,

You're just too damn level headed and diplomatic.

Wes for Governor 2014!

sundayduffer
01-24-2012, 8:44 AM
Greg, you still have me and a few of my friends as loyal customers. Youre a cool cat with great prices on ammos.

gatesbox
01-24-2012, 8:50 AM
Thanks. I now know another shop that does not care about potential new customers or customer service. Lucky for me that I don't have to actually experience it first hand. I just won't do ANY bussiness with ANY shop with an attitude like your's. BTW, I grew up and still have a lot of family on the penisula so, I do do bussiness in the area. I do appreciate your honesty on the subject though.

Greg has been going out of his way in this area to be a service oriented FFL, he has been great about trying to keep costs down for reloaders, and come up with some great deals. He is also starting up a business in an area that has made a few attempts to clamp down on ffl businesses. I have met him a few times if im not mistaken, at Sunnyvale Rod and Gun and note that he seems to yet be tainted by the ascorbic dry indifference of your average Gun shop proprietor, but by all means we should probably give him a hard time until he develops the screw you attitude of most of his competition.

So an FFL uses the FFL forum to gripe a bit about the points of business that are a bit cumbersome, and what appear to be non-FFL holders swing in like a pack of hungry dogs...

Just adding my impression, take it or leave it...

CSACANNONEER
01-24-2012, 1:38 PM
Greg has been going out of his way in this area to be a service oriented FFL, he has been great about trying to keep costs down for reloaders, and come up with some great deals. He is also starting up a business in an area that has made a few attempts to clamp down on ffl businesses. I have met him a few times if im not mistaken, at Sunnyvale Rod and Gun and note that he seems to yet be tainted by the ascorbic dry indifference of your average Gun shop proprietor, but by all means we should probably give him a hard time until he develops the screw you attitude of most of his competition.

So an FFL uses the FFL forum to gripe a bit about the points of business that are a bit cumbersome, and what appear to be non-FFL holders swing in like a pack of hungry dogs...

Just adding my impression, take it or leave it...

First impressions mean a lot but can be changed. I hope he takes my comments as constructive criticism and understands that anything posted anywhere on the internet is out there for everyone to see. True, I'm not a FFL but, I have worked for FFLs in the past. It's just hard for me to leave a good paying job to start my own business right now.

Munk
01-24-2012, 1:55 PM
you don't have to do them. just turn in your license. you knew (or should have) known that it was one of the terms of getting to sell firearms in CA.

But, you are looking at this the wrong way. for the $20 that they paid you, you get 4 forced oportunities to sell them something. You get 1 chance each to sell something to the sellers (who probably have cash in pocket from the private party sale) and 2 shots at the buyer. most industries would love to have people required to visit their establishment, and then give them money to boot.

This is always my first thought when it comes to FFLs complaining about PPTs not being profitable.

Do you pay for advertising? How successful is it? 1000 dollars to bring in about 20 people perhaps?

What If I told you, there was a way to make two people at a time pay you 10 dollars for the privilege of being trapped in your store for about 20-30 minutes? Isn't that so much better than paying someone else to try to convince a customer to show up?

Eddy's Shooting Sports
01-24-2012, 7:29 PM
Thank you to those that have come to my defense and to those offering constructive criticism. I understand very well that PPT's are a way of bringing in new customers, but in the five months I've been open, most of the folks that have come here to do PPT's did not buy anything at transfer, at pickup, or ever. The reality, at least for me thus far, is that I would be better off if I was not required to do them.

I would have participated more in this discussion earlier today, but from when I opened the shop at noon today, until my last customer just left now, I have been going non-stop, no breaks, no sitting down, either selling, writing up guns, or delivering them. I am a one-man show in a 600 square foot store. I have no employees and more work than I know what to do with. I am simply complaining about how I and others are legally mandated to provide a service at an artificially low cost that is detrimental to our businesses.

Some may say I am shooting myself in the foot by complaining about this is a public forum, but I'm not really worried about it. If you truly believe that dealers should be required to do this and just suck it up, then you are obviously no interested in local dealers being successful and there for you when you need us.

In fact, I think most, if not all of my customers would agree with me. Every PPT I have to do takes away from time I would be spending with my customers that are spending money. They have to wait for me while I am doing paperwork and should be helping them decide on their next gun.

keenkeen
01-24-2012, 8:06 PM
Heard something good at a well respected FFL down in Temecula...(Faith Armory to be specific)

When I was thanking them for the prompt and CHEERFUL service on two pistols I was PPTing the shop employee said basically:

"Well, we know it wasn't your idea that we get involved in your PPT...you didn't ask for this anymore than we did. So our approach is to try to make it painless for everyone."

Quite an operation they have going there...not perfect but a really nice setup. I spend money there every time I am in the area. Had never been to that shop before the PPT.

ke6guj
01-24-2012, 8:17 PM
Some may say I am shooting myself in the foot by complaining about this is a public forum, but I'm not really worried about it. If you truly believe that dealers should be required to do this and just suck it up, then you are obviously no interested in local dealers being successful and there for you when you need us.some of us feel that you shouldn't have to do PPTs because we shouldn't need to use an FFL to facilitate a private-party sale. But since CA doesn't want unpapered transfers, they decided that you, the FFL, have to do it as a condition of your license. they could have just as easily given the job to the local LEA.

remember that as much as you hate doing them, we hate having to go to you to have it done.

what $$ number is fair to you for you to do a PPT? $20, $30, $50 +$25 DROS fee? At what point does the price you charge cause more people do just say "F it" and do a paperless transfer instead of complying with the law. If I am buying a $100 gun, should I have to pay a 50%, or more, tax in order to comply with the law?


In fact, I think most, if not all of my customers would agree with me. Every PPT I have to do takes away from time I would be spending with my customers that are spending money. They have to wait for me while I am doing paperwork and should be helping them decide on their next gun.I know that I personally am less likely to buy a firearm from a dealer if I see that they hassle the PPT guys. That gun you sell today might be back in the store in the future as a PPT. If I see that the FFL doesn't mind selling me the gun but don't want to help me comply with the law if I need to sell it to someone else in the future, that does color my opinion of the FFL.

CSACANNONEER
01-24-2012, 8:28 PM
Thank you to those that have come to my defense and to those offering constructive criticism. I understand very well that PPT's are a way of bringing in new customers, but in the five months I've been open, most of the folks that have come here to do PPT's did not buy anything at transfer, at pickup, or ever. The reality, at least for me thus far, is that I would be better off if I was not required to do them.

I would have participated more in this discussion earlier today, but from when I opened the shop at noon today, until my last customer just left now, I have been going non-stop, no breaks, no sitting down, either selling, writing up guns, or delivering them. I am a one-man show in a 600 square foot store. I have no employees and more work than I know what to do with. I am simply complaining about how I and others are legally mandated to provide a service at an artificially low cost that is detrimental to our businesses.

Some may say I am shooting myself in the foot by complaining about this is a public forum, but I'm not really worried about it. If you truly believe that dealers should be required to do this and just suck it up, then you are obviously no interested in local dealers being successful and there for you when you need us.

In fact, I think most, if not all of my customers would agree with me. Every PPT I have to do takes away from time I would be spending with my customers that are spending money. They have to wait for me while I am doing paperwork and should be helping them decide on their next gun.

The simple fact is that any dealer who started their bussiness in 1991 or after knew what they were getting into and agreed to the conditions BEFORE openning their doors. So, whining about a condition that you agreed to is pretty immature, isn't it? Since you have only been in bussiness for 5 months, you don't really know how many of those PPTs will end up being repeat customers in the years to come. Some of us go through phases. I haven't bought a firearm in about a year and a half. Before then, I was buying a few a month and rarely selling. In the last couple of years, I've ended up doing a bunch of homebuilds. But, that doesn't mean that I'm not going to get tired of those and start buying again. When I do, my not so local FFL who has done numerous PPTs for me will get my bussiness again. Yes, I've also bought more than a few firearms, reloading supplies, ammo and other things from his stock.

That said, glad your so busy. Many who start their own bussiness have to struggle for years to get it going. It sounds like you're doing something right since you're so busy.

Eddy's Shooting Sports
01-24-2012, 9:03 PM
Just to clarify something for those that don't know me. Although my shop is only been open five months, it has a 60 year history. I have been in and out of the industry since I was a child. I was actually selling guns and doing paperwork in junior high. (some thirty years now)

As for whining, I think my whining is just. Sure, I knew what I was getting into, but it doesn't mean I cant ***** about the crappy parts.

People buy guns every day then come here to ***** about how they can't get a CCW. Well, they knew what they were getting into.

I just hope nobody takes any of this too seriously. And please, don't judge me or my service until you've met me. Most people are pretty damned satisfied when they leave my shop.

Cheers!

Greg

tenpercentfirearms
01-25-2012, 6:49 AM
I just hope nobody takes any of this too seriously. And please, don't judge me or my service until you've met me. Most people are pretty damned satisfied when they leave my shop.

Cheers!

Greg
Welcome to Calguns Greg! Here you are not allowed to vent in your own forum without a bunch of people telling you they will never do business with you again over it. It is like they feel like they have to try and control you and you can't enjoy the forums like everyone else.

I am a little disappointed CSACannoneer has jumped on this fun boat. I expected him to realize dealers don't care that much about what some random guy on Calguns says about their attitude towards difficult customers in a FFLs forum.

Hopefully we can have the CAL-FFL forum up soon so you can go whine on there among FFLs only so you won't have to hear the threats to never use your business again because you said something people don't like.

For the rest of you, learn that if you want to help change a dealer's mind, educate him. Threatening to never use his business again is not a threat on an Internet forum, especially Calguns. The more people on Calguns threaten a FFL, the more FFLs really stop caring about Calguns. Calguns only has 100,000 members. There are 35 million people in this state.

Why do you think the worst gun shops out there are still in business? There are always people who are willing to go there because they don't know any better and they don't care.

So relax and let a dealer vent now and then. A simple, "I like to go to stores that have a positive attitude about PPTs" will suffice. Threatening a dealer to take away his business when he is busy all day long is futile and actually counter-productive because the dealer might stop hanging out here where we can educate him and he will definitely stop telling people to visit Calguns for valid legal information.

I just like to argue so that is why I hang around and piss people off otherwise, Calguns seems to be getting further and further out there.

7 Sprig
01-25-2012, 7:58 PM
I bought a gun here in the private firearms sales .

I met the guy at a local gun shop .

We did the $35 ppt and low and behold , the shop had the Kimber i had to have in the case .

The shop that was super nice about the ppt got a sale on a 1200$ gun.

I guess doing a ppt is a pain in the *** for some dealers and not others.

Eddy's Shooting Sports
01-26-2012, 11:15 AM
Thanks 10%.

I wish I had more time to write. I think you've covered it pretty well. This is an FFL forum, not a piss on an FFL forum.

All in all, Calguns had been good for me.