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Emdawg
01-22-2012, 12:04 AM
In the state of California, do antique centerfire (like an original 1873 Army SAA 'Peacemaker') pistols have to be registered?

Do you need a ten day wait?

Cokebottle
01-22-2012, 12:55 AM
No.

1898 and earlier are no longer considered "Firearms" for purposes of transfer.
Note that this refers to the actual manufactured date of the specific gun in question. While the "1873" may have only been produced in 1873, the Colt SAA first generation was produced until 1941.

Only samples manufactured before 1/1/1899 would be considered antiques.

Emdawg
01-22-2012, 1:46 AM
Ok

I heard that you still had to regardless of it being antique.

That reminds me...

Do you have to be 21 to buy one?

I know you can be 18 to buy a blackpowder pistol new or antique.

Is that the same for antique centerfire pistols?:confused:

Cokebottle
01-22-2012, 1:57 AM
I'm not positive on the age issue.
I think you're okay at 18.

Mssr. Eleganté
01-22-2012, 2:22 PM
Ok

I heard that you still had to regardless of it being antique.

That reminds me...

Do you have to be 21 to buy one?

I know you can be 18 to buy a blackpowder pistol new or antique.

Is that the same for antique centerfire pistols?:confused:

You can definitely buy an "antique" centerfire cartridge firing handgun at 18 years of age. Like Cokebottle mentioned, if it fires modern ammo it must have been manufactured before 1899 to be considered an antique. So a Colt SAA made in 1898 is legal to buy at age 18. But with a Colt SAA made in 1899 you need to be 21 and go through a dealer/DROS.

Emdawg
01-22-2012, 8:50 PM
Thanks guys.

I was actually hoping to get a S&W No. 3, but they are hard to find.

I just wanted to know the legality before I see one at a gunshow or something like that, because I have seen them, but passed them by.:mad:

Eddy's Shooting Sports
01-23-2012, 2:43 AM
Pre-99 no paper is the general practice, but if you read the CA law regarding the subject it is clear that antiques that meet the federal definition of being non-firearms are exempt if licensing and transfer requirements "between individuals". It does not say they are exempt when transacted by dealers.

I have been meaning to raise this topic as well, because the way I read CA law, is that if it uses a cartridge, it must be dros'ed if sold by a dealer, regardless of age.

Thoughts on this?

Mssr. Eleganté
01-23-2012, 12:11 PM
Pre-99 no paper is the general practice, but if you read the CA law regarding the subject it is clear that antiques that meet the federal definition of being non-firearms are exempt if licensing and transfer requirements "between individuals". It does not say they are exempt when transacted by dealers.

I have been meaning to raise this topic as well, because the way I read CA law, is that if it uses a cartridge, it must be dros'ed if sold by a dealer, regardless of age.

Thoughts on this?

Yeah, the Penal Code seems to say that if you are a California licensed dealer then you still need to DROS "antiques". And it doesn't just include cartridge firing antiques. It would seem that even black powder firearms would need to be DROS'd.

Antiques sold through a California licensed dealer appear to be exempt from the 10 day waiting period, the handgun safety check, proof of residency, serial number markings and the 1 per 30 limit. Antique handguns also can be transfered by a California licensed dealer to an 18 year old. But I don't see any exemption for the DROS.

The way the law is written it seems you could open a business selling only antique firearms and not be subject to any DROS requirement, but once you become a California licensed dealer you have to DROS antiques.

Hopefully I am missing something.

Cokebottle
01-23-2012, 8:31 PM
Something MUST be missing in the puzzle... BassPro and many other shops have black powder pistols out on the shelf in clamshell packs sold OTC same as a holster.

Emdawg
01-29-2012, 10:49 AM
I know antique long guns are exempt. Any cap & ball pistols are exempt.

It is not clear in catridge pistols however. :(

Mssr. Eleganté
01-29-2012, 12:50 PM
I know antique long guns are exempt. Any cap & ball pistols are exempt.

It is not clear in catridge pistols however. :(

If you are talking about sales by people who are not California licensed dealers then anything defined as an "antique" by the feds is exempt. It doesn't matter if they are handguns and it doesn't matter if they fire modern ammo. The feds exempt all antiques from having to be transfered through an FFL and California exempts all antiques from having to be transfered through a California licensed dealer.

If you are talking about sales by California licensed dealers then where are you seeing this exemption to the DROS for any kind of antique? The penal code requires California licensed dealers to DROS any firearms they transfer to non-licensees.

Eddy's Shooting Sports
01-29-2012, 1:12 PM
This is how I read it too. I think I am going to stay on the safe side and continue to DROS pre-99 as well.

I can't seem to find it, but I also remember reading a state document that exempted non-cartridge firearms. Still looking...

halifax
01-29-2012, 1:18 PM
Are pre-1899 still firearms by definition? If not, then DROS doen't apply to those hunks of metal.

Mssr. Eleganté
01-29-2012, 1:52 PM
Are pre-1899 still firearms by definition? If not, then DROS doen't apply to those hunks of metal.

They are definitely not firearms for purposes of the Gun Control Act. The feds consider them to be hunks of metal.

The problem is that California considers them to be firearms for some parts of the penal code and not firearms for other parts of the penal code. California law says you don't need a license to sell them. But California law implies that if you are already licensed to sell firearms then you have to DROS them.

kemasa
01-29-2012, 4:06 PM
I don't think that the CA DOJ understands the different definitions of an antique firearm and what applies to which PC section.

Mssr. Eleganté
01-29-2012, 4:37 PM
I don't think that the CA DOJ understands the different definitions of an antique firearm and what applies to which PC section.

I'm sure you are right about that.

halifax
01-30-2012, 4:46 AM
If you are talking about sales by people who are not California licensed dealers then anything defined as an "antique" by the feds is exempt. It doesn't matter if they are handguns and it doesn't matter if they fire modern ammo. The feds exempt all antiques from having to be transfered through an FFL and California exempts all antiques from having to be transfered through a California licensed dealer.

If you are talking about sales by California licensed dealers then where are you seeing this exemption to the DROS for any kind of antique? The penal code requires California licensed dealers to DROS any firearms they transfer to non-licensees.

If it is a hunk of metal when I receive it, I'm not going to enter it into my A/D book, I'm not going to fill out a 4473 when I sell it because it is only a "hunk of metal" and a 4473 is not required for hunks of metal. But you are saying CA says I need to DROS a hunk of metal??

I would think the "exemption" to the DROS is that it is NOT a firearm by law; hence, doesn't need to be DROSed. It is only a hunk of metal.

Mssr. Eleganté
01-30-2012, 7:23 AM
If it is a hunk of metal when I receive it, I'm not going to enter it into my A/D book, I'm not going to fill out a 4473 when I sell it because it is only a "hunk of metal" and a 4473 is not required for hunks of metal. But you are saying CA says I need to DROS a hunk of metal??

I would think the "exemption" to the DROS is that it is NOT a firearm by law; hence, doesn't need to be DROSed. It is only a hunk of metal.

See my response to your question up above in post #14.

halifax
01-30-2012, 7:51 AM
...
But California law implies that if you are already licensed to sell firearms then you have to DROS them.

I guess I'm dense. Where does CA PC turn them back into "firearms" and "imply" that I need to DROS them?

Thanks

kemasa
01-30-2012, 10:33 AM
There are three different definitions of what an antique firearm is in the CA PC, so it is confusing and the CA DOJ seems to think that there is only one. One aspect is if there is any modern ammo which is available for it.

I have looked into this and to be quite honest I am not sure of what the answer really is, especially with the changes to the PC sections.

Librarian
01-30-2012, 12:21 PM
See also the wiki -- http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/Definition_of_a_firearm/gun

kemasa
01-30-2012, 12:30 PM
Part of the problem is not only figuring out what the correct definition for each PC section, but that the CA DOJ seems to have a different view than the actual law, which means that you might win in the end, but suffer until then.

Also, if a FFL sends you an antique firearm AND also includes a CFLC letter, then what? You can't cancel a CFLC letter and you need to be able to show what happened to the firearm.

halifax
01-30-2012, 2:57 PM
See also the wiki -- http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/Definition_of_a_firearm/gun

OK, thanks but it's going to take me awhile to digest that especially with the new numbering.

Eddy's Shooting Sports
01-31-2012, 11:24 AM
It's all clear as mud now.

To DROS or not to DROS, where art thou Kamila Harris?

Emdawg
01-31-2012, 4:21 PM
It's all clear as mud now.

To DROS or not to DROS, where art thou Kamila Harris?


Humph. She probably has no idea that code even exists.:rolleyes:

animal661
10-16-2012, 10:50 PM
Ok I know this is an old thread but it applies to me currently

I just sent the info to my FFL

He called the DOJ about an antique that I wanted to buy

They quoted the "modern ammo " to whitch I disagreed with

After some research this is what I found

Penal code 16170 has 3 sections
(a) applies to 30515 and 30530 (assault weapons and .50 BMG)

(b)applies to 16520, Section 16650, subdivision (a) of
Section 23630, paragraph (1) of subdivision (b) of Section 27505, and
subdivision (a) of Section 31615, ---Same as federal definition of antique that only says that replica's cannot accept modern ammo (section 921) ( There is an "or Between a & b)

(c) cannot use modern ammo ONLY aplies to section 17700 - exemption to 16590 Gemerally prohibited weapons
( basically I can only buy a cane gun if it is older than 1899 AND uses obsolete ammo)

Thought I would share this