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View Full Version : Colt M1991A1 custom finish, out of state purchase ok?


titus75
01-21-2012, 9:46 PM
It's on the roster but, it has custom finish, bright nickel. Does this make it not ok to have it shipped in out of state?

keenkeen
01-21-2012, 10:18 PM
Should not be an issue...ask your FFL so they are on board.

tenpercentfirearms
01-22-2012, 6:32 AM
Should not be an issue...ask your FFL so they are on board.

Can you back that up with Penal Code?

12131.5. (a) A firearm shall be deemed to satisfy the requirements of subdivision (a) of Section 12131 if another firearm made by the same manufacturer is already listed and the unlisted firearm differs from the listed firearm only in one or more of the following features:
(1) Finish, including, but not limited to, bluing, chrome-plating, oiling, or engraving.
(2) The material from which the grips are made.
(3) The shape or texture of the grips, so long as the difference in grip shape or texture does not in any way alter the dimensions, material, linkage, or functioning of the magazine well, the barrel, the chamber, or any of the components of the firing mechanism of the firearm.
(4) Any other purely cosmetic feature that does not in any way alter the dimensions, material, linkage, or functioning of the magazine well, the barrel, the chamber, or any of the components of the firing mechanism of the firearm.
(b) Any manufacturer seeking to have a firearm listed under this section shall provide to the Department of Justice all of the following:
(1) The model designation of the listed firearm.
(2) The model designation of each firearm that the manufacturer seeks to have listed under this section.
(3) A statement, under oath, that each unlisted firearm for which listing is sought differs from the listed firearm only in one or more of the ways identified in subdivision (a) and is in all other respects identical to the listed firearm.
(c) The department may, in its discretion and at any time, require a manufacturer to provide to the department any model for which listing is sought under this section, to determine whether the model complies with the requirements of this section.People often read this and mistakenly think that it means if the finish is different it is good to go, but that is not what it says. The (b) that I bolded states if the finish is different, the manufacturer does not have to have it tested again, but the manufacturer must submit the information so it can also be listed.

So in my opinion, no, your different finished Colt 1911 is not going to match the roster and it will not be legal for an FFL to DROS to you as is. You should have it single shot exempted.

Will all FFLs understand this? Probably not. You might still get someone to DROS it, but you have been warned.

keenkeen
01-22-2012, 7:29 AM
I guess I was taking the situation differently...

I was assuming that the custom finish was applied not by the MFG but by a 3rd party after the gun was sold by the MFG. In that case I did not think 12131.5 would apply.

If it did than the following would also not be legal...

I am a AZ resident and own a rostered gun...lets say a Colt 01980XSE / Carbon Steel (blue). I bling it out with some of those super cool Punisher logo grips and then put it up on GunBroker. :)

Do we apply 12131.5 to that modification? I think if if its a Colt performed manufacturing change than 12131.5 applies if it is an aftermarket change it does not...

Again, I would talk to the FFL that I was having handle the transfer before moving forward.

tenpercentfirearms
01-22-2012, 9:17 AM
I guess I was taking the situation differently...

I was assuming that the custom finish was applied not by the MFG but by a 3rd party after the gun was sold by the MFG. In that case I did not think 12131.5 would apply.

If it did than the following would also not be legal...

I am a AZ resident and own a rostered gun...lets say a Colt 01980XSE / Carbon Steel (blue). I bling it out with some of those super cool Punisher logo grips and then put it up on GunBroker. :)

Do we apply 12131.5 to that modification? I think if if its a Colt performed manufacturing change than 12131.5 applies if it is an aftermarket change it does not...

Again, I would talk to the FFL that I was having handle the transfer before moving forward.

Can you show in the penal code where firearms that have been bought and are being resold are exempt from the roster? You won't be able to.

It is real simple. Either it is on the roster or it is not. As a dealer, it does not matter if the firearm is new or used, I cannot run a dealer DROS unless it is on the roster. So whether the factory makes the change or the customer makes the change, the firearm is not on the roster and I cannot DROS it.

Now if the firearm is being PPTed here in the state, then none of this matters. However, the OP clearly states it is coming from out of state. It must be on the roster. If it has a custom finish, whether done at the factory or not, it is has been changed and must be listed in order to DROS.

According to the penal code, your Punisher grips would take the firearm off the roster. Leave the original grips on and sell the Punisher grips along with it as an add on accessory and it is fine. Put them on, then it needs to be rostered.

Sorry, that is the way it is. Remember none of this makes sense, it is supposed to be restrictive on purpose in order to reduce the number of handguns being sold.

DiscoBayJoe
01-22-2012, 9:29 AM
Interesting..... so this means a Duracoated Glock 17 G3 is no longer on the roster?

keenkeen
01-22-2012, 9:42 AM
Interesting..... so this means a Duracoated Glock 17 G3 is no longer on the roster?

So the CA dealer who swaps the stock grips on a RIA 1911 for a pair of "tactical" ones before putting it in his display case should be doing an SSE on that gun?

10percent is right...that doesn't make sense.

To the OP...call your FFL and ask.

titus75
01-22-2012, 9:53 AM
So in my opinion, no, your different finished Colt 1911 is not going to match the roster and it will not be legal for an FFL to DROS to you as is. You should have it single shot exempted.

Will all FFLs understand this? Probably not. You might still get someone to DROS it, but you have been warned.

If I, or my FFL, call CA DOJ Monday morning (and they actually answer) and explain the situation to them in a clear, concise, straightforward manner, what do you think the response will be? A single shot exemption for a rostered handgun because it has a different finish is not worth the hassle to me, this is a bright nickel and satin nickel combo, it's a "show gun" so to speak. I'll run it by my FFL and see what he thinks, he's a damn good guy IMHO. He helped me process a O.R. FTF PPT that took almost three months to get handled and he did it all for the cost of $35 + $10 when other FFL'S I talked to didn't want any part of it or wanted to charge me a couple hundred bucks. He is, like many of the FFL'S on CG, a very cautious person when it come to CA DOJ and I completely understand why, I'll try tomorrow and see how it goes.

tenpercentfirearms
01-22-2012, 9:58 AM
Interesting..... so this means a Duracoated Glock 17 G3 is no longer on the roster?

That is correct. Glock had to separately list the OD models. They have since taken them off. Springfield Armory has certain bi-tones that are not on the list (or at least they used to).

So the CA dealer who swaps the stock grips on a RIA 1911 for a pair of "tactical" ones before putting it in his display case should be doing an SSE on that gun?

10percent is right...that doesn't make sense.

To the OP...call your FFL and ask.Just remember, your FFL might still do it for you, but it is still illegal. Proceed with caution.


If I, or my FFL, call CA DOJ Monday morning (and they actually answer) and explain the situation to them in a clear, concise, straightforward manner, what do you think the response will be? A single shot exemption for a rostered handgun because it has a different finish is not worth the hassle to me, this is a bright nickel and satin nickel combo, it's a "show gun" so to speak.
Let us know what the DOJ says. They might say grips are okay. You just never know what kind of answer you might get over the phone.

keenkeen
01-22-2012, 10:03 AM
Let us know what the DOJ says. They might say grips are okay. You just never know what kind of answer you might get over the phone.

Ain't that the truth...you get all kinds of different answers from them depending on who you speak with.

:confused:

tenpercentfirearms
01-22-2012, 10:05 AM
Ain't that the truth...you get all kinds of different answers from them depending on who you speak with.

:confused:

That is why it is important to know the penal code and rely on it.

DiscoBayJoe
01-22-2012, 10:06 AM
That is correct. Glock had to separately list the OD models. They have since taken them off. Springfield Armory has certain bi-tones that are not on the list (or at least they used to).



Very Interesting. Someone should get a ruling on officially what would constitute an off roster gun.

EG: if you start with a gun in a box from a MFG with part number markings that are clearly on-roster... and then:

> grip change = Off Roster?
> tac light addition = off Roster?
> Nite Sites = Off Roster?
> Different Brand of Magazine = Off Roster?
> Polish the Barrell = Off Roster?
> Polish the Slide = Off Roster?
> Engrave something on the Slide = Off Roster?
> Colorize factory markings (such a painting a safetey red) = Off Roster?
> refinish the firearm = Off Roster?

Obviously if it was offered by the MFG under a different SKU, any of those could make it another gun... but if these are done by the 1st owner and sold as used, which ones would take it off roster?

tenpercentfirearms
01-22-2012, 10:21 AM
Very Interesting. Someone should get a ruling on officially what would constitute an off roster gun.

EG: if you start with a gun in a box from a MFG with part number markings that are clearly on-roster... and then:

> grip change = Off Roster?
> tac light addition = off Roster?
> Nite Sites = Off Roster?
> Different Brand of Magazine = Off Roster?
> Polish the Barrell = Off Roster?
> Polish the Slide = Off Roster?
> Engrave something on the Slide = Off Roster?
> Colorize factory markings (such a painting a safetey red) = Off Roster?
> refinish the firearm = Off Roster?

Obviously if it was offered by the MFG under a different SKU, any of those could make it another gun... but if these are done by the 1st owner and sold as used, which ones would take it off roster?

Some of these are wrong.

> grip change = Off Roster?
> tac light addition = off Roster?
> Nite Sites = Off Roster?
> Different Brand of Magazine = Off Roster?
> Polish the Barrell = Off Roster? - Possibly, I would need to research it further.
> Polish the Slide = Off Roster? - Possibly, I would need to research it further.
> Engrave something on the Slide = Off Roster?
> Colorize factory markings (such a painting a safetey red) = Off Roster?
> refinish the firearm = Off Roster?

It is what it is.

Now when sold as a private party transfer, the roster does not apply. However, if I modify my gun and try to sell it to a gun shop, they cannot DROS it once they take it into their inventory. If I try to send it to southern California for DROS, it also cannot be DROSed. PPT have to be in person at the store to be exempt.

Also if the dealer delivers a firearm and then does any of this after the customer has taken possession of it and the DROS is complete, then none of this applies as well. Again DROS must be done on rostered firearms or the firearm and/or person must be exempt.

DiscoBayJoe
01-22-2012, 10:28 AM
^ not trying to argue at all, just trying to understand the non-sensical laws and play devils advocate.

Looking at the list, it does appear that they do not differentiate between the glocks with/without Night Sites, so it's safe to say the accessories don't make the gun?

So an on-roster 1911 with both the original slide and a matching 22LR conversion slide as an accessory would be OK but drop the original slide from the transfer and it would be off roster?

ap3572001
01-22-2012, 10:41 AM
If the gun left the factory as a NEW Colt XSE .45 and then a custom gunsmith turned it ito something totally different , the gun is STILL Colt XSE .45. Right? or Wrong?

Its no ones business what was done to the pistol that IS on the list.

titus75
01-22-2012, 3:00 PM
Ain't that the truth...you get all kinds of different answers from them depending on who you speak with.

:confused:

Absolutely, I called there once and talked to some lady, she was actually quite pleasant to talk to, but she had no clue what I was asking her about, I got answers like "well I think so" and "I don't see why not" "that would make sense". I don't know if she was covering the phones during lunch hour or what the deal was. After a few times talking to DOJ I understood completely why CA FFL'S would consider a verbal "ok" over the phone as completely worthless. Always get it in writing as the saying goes.

tenpercentfirearms
01-22-2012, 8:55 PM
If the gun left the factory as a NEW Colt XSE .45 and then a custom gunsmith turned it ito something totally different , the gun is STILL Colt XSE .45. Right? or Wrong?

Its no ones business what was done to the pistol that IS on the list.

The state made it their business. The custom gunsmith could still DROS it as a Colt XSE .45, but if the DOJ shows up and finds it not in its original configuration, then the FFL would have to answer for the misdemeanor of selling and/or offering for sale non-rostered handguns and/or possible loss of CFD status.

ap3572001
01-22-2012, 9:36 PM
The state made it their business. The custom gunsmith could still DROS it as a Colt XSE .45, but if the DOJ shows up and finds it not in its original configuration, then the FFL would have to answer for the misdemeanor of selling and/or offering for sale non-rostered handguns and/or possible loss of CFD status.

Really?
My friend (also LEO) ordered a COLT XSE( on Roster model) few months ago.

His FFL told Him that since its an ON ROSTER gun He does not have to use X31.

The XSE was used but came in original box with paperwork. It was a custom combat job from some shop back east.
It started its life as an XSE which is ON THE ROSTER. Thats whats matters. I think.
Any Ca resident can buy any on roster pistol , send it out for some work and get it back to their front in any configuration they want.

I know a couple of steel shooters who bought regular CZ75's and when some shop was done with them and they got shipped back they looked like guns from 2112. But THEY WERE CZ75's on roster pistols.

tenpercentfirearms
01-23-2012, 8:22 AM
Really?
My friend (also LEO) ordered a COLT XSE( on Roster model) few months ago.

His FFL told Him that since its an ON ROSTER gun He does not have to use X31. X31 is a HSC exemption and I am not sure what that has to do with it being on or off the roster.

The XSE was used but came in original box with paperwork. It was a custom combat job from some shop back east.
It started its life as an XSE which is ON THE ROSTER. Thats whats matters. I think.You need to stop thinking and start quoting penal code. It doesn't matter what the gun starts off as, if it is not the model as tested, then it isn't a listed handgun. I already quoted the penal code that stated when a manufacturer can roster without retesting. So if a new manufacturer/gun smith screws with it and changes it from its orginal design, then it isn't on the roster anymore.

Further, since you stated he didn't need to use X31 which has nothing to do with roster or non-roster, we have no way of knowing whether the dealer really made it non-roster LEO exempt or not.

Again, I can DROS just about anything I want and claim it is a rostered gun. As long as the DOJ doesn't show up before the gun arrives, they will most likely never know that I DROSed a non-rostered gun. It still doesn't make it legal.

Any Ca resident can buy any on roster pistol , send it out for some work and get it back to their front in any configuration they want.That is correct. However, I still can't DROS non-rostered firearms except to exempt LEOs or if they meet the exemptions (SSE, Single Action Revolvers, Olympic guns).

I know a couple of steel shooters who bought regular CZ75's and when some shop was done with them and they got shipped back they looked like guns from 2112. But THEY WERE CZ75's on roster pistols.Again, if they were bought as CZ75s and delivered by the FFL in the roster approved condition, that is fine. If they were sent off for work and included modications that changed the firearm like the PC quoted in the posts above, they must be added to the roster before being DROSed. If they included further modifications, then they must be retested. If the dealer sold them in their modified state, then the dealer is guilty of selling non-rostered pistols. If the customers took possession and then sent them out themselves, then that is legal.

Only when you guys stop using logic and start reading the penal code will you figure out that common sense has no business in this discussion. Either it is rostered, exempt, or a LEO, otherwise the handgun may not legally be DROSed (however, it certainyl can be illegally DROSed and most likely no one will catch it. Still not worth it to me, but other dealers have to make their own decisions).

ap3572001
01-23-2012, 8:45 AM
Ok. WHat I meant was that my friend (LEO) Colt XSE was AT ONE TIME indeed an ON ROSTER COlt XSE.

But what He showed me when we went shooting after He picked up the gun at His FFL , DID NOT look like a COLT XSE. Other than it was still was some kind of single action 45.

keenkeen
01-23-2012, 9:45 AM
I know of an FFL who preforms a trigger job and reilablity upgrade work on most of the low-mid range new 1911's he sells BEFORE he puts them in the display case for sale.

So, is he DROSing a non-rostered pistol when he sells one of these?

tenpercentfirearms
01-23-2012, 10:32 AM
I know of an FFL who preforms a trigger job and reilablity upgrade work on most of the low-mid range new 1911's he sells BEFORE he puts them in the display case for sale.

So, is he DROSing a non-rostered pistol when he sells one of these?

I believe so. Re-working the trigger would fall under PC 12131.5(a)(4). The firearm would not qualify to be rostered without a new test, so it would need to be submitted for a new test and pay the applicable fees.

This also goes to the question of is the FFL also manufacturering so does he have an 07 and is he engraving his new pistols, which definitely would make them off roster.

Drop in parts are okay for not being an 07, but if he is working on existing parts, he is probably manufacturing.

Again, you can do all of this all you want after the customer takes possession.

ap3572001
01-23-2012, 11:15 AM
Very interesting!

So a Caspian slide ,6 inch barrel, match trigger Glock 17 GEN3 that is on sale for example on Gunsamerica is NOT an ON ROSTER gun ?

Cant You STILL call it just a G17?

tenpercentfirearms
01-23-2012, 2:12 PM
Very interesting!

So a Caspian slide ,6 inch barrel, match trigger Glock 17 GEN3 that is on sale for example on Gunsamerica is NOT an ON ROSTER gun ?

Cant You STILL call it just a G17?

Definitely not! The roster is very clear on the barrel size of the firearm. A G17 has a 4.49" barrel. So your 6" barrel does not fit the description of the G17 and so it is of roster.

The good news is single shot exempting a G17 with a six inch barrel isn't that hard.

titus75
01-24-2012, 5:56 PM
Ok, here is some clarification as far as this particular Colt. I assumed this was a 01991 M1991A1 that was matte blue and was sent to the CC shop for the custom satin/bright nickel finish. I was wrong (according to what I'm being told anyways), this is a new Colt that came from CC shop with the custom finish, it has box that says 01991Z Custom M1991 A1 Matte Blue (which it's not), dealer says it's not uncommon for Colt to send 1911's in factory boxes that don't have exact matching color on them , (I have no idea if this is true or not). According to what I've read the "Z" indicates it came from the CC shop and and there are all different kinds of "Z" models, special requests, engravings, etc. I see a few 01991Z models on the DOJ Roster, both listed as "steel" period, no color. This comes with factory box, a factory letter, and presentation case. FFL says he's not sure about bringing this into the state except possibly by single shot exemption. At this point I'm a little leery of exactly what this is, I guess I can ask dealer for serial number and then call Colt and see if they can help me. What exactly would a "factory letter" say on it and would it have the serial number and some sort of official stamp from the CC shop or Colts MFG. ? At this point I think the question about whether or not this is ok to ship in from out of state and dros is probably moot, I'll move this out of the FFL forum into Ca Handgun discussion, thanks to all for the opinions they are always appreciated