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m1371
03-19-2007, 6:33 AM
Interesting blog article about the hi-tech Kalifornia CCW program.

Anyone or their 1st grade daughter could make their own CCW with MS Paint. Laminate that sucker and who is going to be able to tell at first glance? And the point that many LEOs haven't even seen a valid CCW is spot on. I've actually had a LASD officer check my permit and ask what the heck it was!

http://blogging.la/archives/2007/02/californias_ccw_licenses_are_t.phtml
»»California's CCW Licenses Are Too Easy To Fake
posted by Sean Bonner at 10:00 AM on February 21, 2007

[This is the third post in a 5 part series] - In the rest of the country, a state issued license to carry a concealed weapon (CCW) is physically just like a Drivers License. It's printed on plastic, contains a photo and a unique serial number, and is tied to a central database so an officer can check it's validity from his or her in car terminal at any point in time. In California, this license is printed on sheet of paper, contains no photo or unique serial number, and the only way to check it's validity is to call the specific department where it was issued during office hours and and ask them to verify it. Yes, anyone with 10 minutes at a Kinkos and an eye for detail could make a fake CCW that depending on the time of day would be impossible to verify. I'd like to ask our elected officials step up to fix this massive security problem.

Before I go any further let me show you what I mean - This is a scan of a CCW issued by the State of Florida, and this is a blank CA license.
http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/8269/flccwcf5.jpghttp://img515.imageshack.us/img515/6976/californiaccwjp1.gif

The actual CA licenses that I've seen in person have all been filled out on a type writer, sometimes with actual White Out used for any corrections, included no photo, and at first glance looked like a photocopy. Upon further inspection you can see they are printed on something a little thinner than typical copier paper, but if you wanted to make a fake one it would be one of the easier things things you could forge. But because there is no central database of these and there are so many security holes in how these are made and distributed, you might actually be able to buy one out of a back door, you'd just need to know which one to knock on.

Let's look at these a little closer. As you can see from production numbers on the scan, this form is circa 1999, every license I've seen in person has had the same numbers at the bottom indicating that is the most recent print run. It's assumed these all come from one print shop but in reality there could be several - we really have no way of knowing for sure. We know the CA DoJ orders them, but no idea from where. This print shop most likely knows what they are printing, and it's not a huge assumption that every one of these they print gets sent to the DoJ. An actual CCW license could fetch a large price tag and the people printing them probably know this. This is a massive temptation that can't be discounted. Again, there is no auditable record of how many are ordered, printed, or delivered to the DoJ. Police and Sheriff's departments are the issuing authority here in CA, so presumably they request blank licenses from the DoJ and receive a stack of them. Is there any method in place to track how many a department receives at any given point in time? Not that I'm aware of, and since the licenses do not have a unique serial number, there is no way to verify or track these blank forms.

california_ccw.gif Now that these blank forms are sitting at the Police or Sheriff's departments, the same issues exist as the blank ones at the print shop. Law enforcement officers are people too, and there is no way to track or monitor that some of these are not being sold by officers themselves. Again, the lack of any kind of unique serial number means the possibility for "off the books" licenses is extremely high. For example, in San Benito County, the CA DoJ shows that there has only been one license issued, however in this article Undersheriff Pat Turturici said there are about 20 to 25 active concealed weapon permits in the county. In the same story San Benito Sheriff Curtis Hill estimated that he received a renewal request every other month, or 6 a year. With licenses being valid for 2-4 years, you can see that math isn't adding up at all. That's a bunch of licenses that the DoJ doesn't have on record. This is a bad, bad thing.

Once the license is issued it is assigned a serial number, but again we're forced to assume the accounting of these numbers is correct. With no central database of issued licenses an Officer who is presented with one has to call the office that issued it. If this call takes place outside of business hours in most cases there will be no one there who can look up the validity of the license. If an officer pulls someone over in the middle of the night and is presented with a CCW he has to decide to either assume it's legitimate, or assume it's a fraud, arrest the person for carrying a firearm, and then deal with the repercussions the following day if it turned out to be legit. That's not an attractive decision to make, and not one any officer would have to make if CCW licenses were harder to fake and tied to a central state database like they are in the rest of the country.

Note: I've tweaked the layout of the text a bit in order to insert images of the Florida CCW and the Kalifornia CCW. There were no changes made to the content of the article.

chiefcrash
03-19-2007, 6:42 AM
yes, but California's biggest counterfeit protection for it's concealed carry permits is that they don't issue them to anyone...

besides, what's the point in making a fake carry permit? The only people who would do it are the same people that aren't allowed to posses a gun. If they're gonna break the law and own a guy they're not allow to have, why would they even bother with the fake permit?

tgriffin
03-19-2007, 6:54 AM
very interesting..... anyone with a CCW care to chime in?

1911su16b870
03-19-2007, 7:53 AM
Wow now I can go to downtown LA and get my green card, matricular consular and CCW cards from the street vendor? I call that one stop shopping! :)

WokMaster1
03-19-2007, 8:11 AM
Wow now I can go to downtown LA and get my green card, matricular consular and CCW cards from the street vendor? I call that one stop shopping! :)

I was about to say the same thing. Maybe most of the illegals have CCW. how would we know.

The most technically progessive state still has one foot in the 1960s.

50 Freak
03-19-2007, 8:55 AM
Well, for the amount of money you pay for a CCW, I'd expect a laminated card or something. Instead of the crappy 1 layer toilet paper thin stuff they issue out.

What I do is make a copy (both sided) and keep my original in the safe. The copy goes in my wallet.

I think this is a non issue as if you are caught with a CCW, the cop will be calling the issueing dept to check. So a fact permit will only get you in more hot water.

SunshineGlocker
03-19-2007, 9:22 AM
"The cop will be calling the issuing dept to check." Great. During business hours that might work. What if it's 9pm, and the issuing dept is a tiny sheriffs dept that doesn't have a lot of late night staff, or an even tinier PD that might have no late-night staff? Remember there are about 500 different issuing authorities in CA. Cop is presented with a CCW from Tinytown California PD, and Tinytown California PD is not answering the phone at midnight. Option 1: Hold the CCWer until business hours, possibly committing a wrongful arrest? Option 2: Trust that the thing is real and let him go.

Aluisious
03-19-2007, 9:24 AM
Option 3: Draw on the count of three, hombre.

Wulf
03-19-2007, 9:29 AM
The permit format is bogus. Flimsy paper, just enough larger than wallet size to be problematic. The policy on whether you can copy, reduce, laminate and carry the copy shift back and forth over the years.

My understanding is that the ability to call in to verify the permit is a 24/7 thing.

But on the whole I happy to have the legislature leave the whole thing alone cause I really doubt they could or would tinker without making it worse.

SunshineGlocker
03-19-2007, 9:34 AM
My understanding is that the ability to call in to verify the permit is a 24/7 thing.

NO THAT IS NOT CORRECT! The records are only kept at the issuing authorities. There are at least 500 issuing authorities in the state. Some of them are very small PDs or SOs that have less than half a dozen full-time employees. Even in large offices, the records may be all on paper and may be locked in a location that most staff don't have access to. THEY CANNOT BE VERIFIED 24/7 in general!

The only way that would be possible is if there were a state-wide database. THERE IS NONE!

CWM4A1
03-19-2007, 9:45 AM
What I have heard from my CCW instructor who also is LEO:

1. CA CCW paper is real thin. You can put it between your eye and a light source and read it from the other side. If I (LEO) can't read it that way, it's a fake one. (So don't make copies... just laminate the original).

2. There is a small label on top of 99-32872; if that label is not there, it's a fake.

3. Unless it's a minor traffic stop, otherwise your CCW information will be called-in. If information didn't come back positively, you are going downtown.

To extend #3 a little further, my CCW agency (OCSD) require you to inform LEO upon contact that you have CCW and is packing. If I am packing illegaly with a fake CCW license, the last thing I want to do is to let LEO know and give them a chance to find out my CCW license is fake. On the other hand, if you are packing and you don't let LEO know about it, as soon as they find out, you are going to be in a situation that you don't want to be in.

The way I look at it: Most of time if you need to show your CCW license to LEO, that means you are already in some sort of trouble and they will take time to find out if your CCW license is for real or not. CCW license is not get out of jail free card; and if they can't figure out if your CCW license is for real fast enough, you are going to go downtown until they figure it out. So I really don't see this being an issue. Whoever wrote that blog is full if it.

SunshineGlocker
03-19-2007, 9:57 AM
Answers to your points:

1. Yes they are often described as "rice paper". If someone printed one on regular office paper, it would be easy to see that it's fake. But thin paper like that is easy to get at any art supply store.

2. Yes there is a small union print shop label on it. Again, if you can get access to a real one, you could scan that label with no problem. I think a modern inkjet printer could print that with no problem. The whole thing is black-and-white. There are no colors, intaglio printing, or even the most rudimentary anti-counterfeiting measures.

3. My point is, they can call the information in, but if it's after hours, they might get an "I don't know" response. Not positive, not negative, just, "please call back during business hours". Remember, not every PD or sheriffs office in this state has 24-hour staffing. That's an inherent flaw in the current system.

So you have a permit that can be faked easily with regular office equipment, and no reliable way to verify permits outside of business hours. Wonderful!

tenpercentfirearms
03-19-2007, 10:08 AM
Why are we bringing this up? Yes it would be easy to fake one, but why make it an issue? Just drop it and don't talk about it.

Richard
03-19-2007, 10:14 AM
the reality is that it can be produced illegally. It seems it will be the officers prerogative to challenge the validity of the CCW.

If he has reason to suspect a fake....Officer intuition I guess?:confused:

50 Freak
03-19-2007, 10:18 AM
To extend #3 a little further, my CCW agency (OCSD) require you to inform LEO upon contact that you have CCW and is packing. If I am packing illegaly with a fake CCW license, the last thing I want to do is to let LEO know and give them a chance to find out my CCW license is fake. On the other hand, if you are packing and you don't let LEO know about it, as soon as they find out, you are going to be in a situation that you don't want to be in.


Since when do you have to tell a LE you are packing. There is no law in CA that requires that. In fact my CCW instructor (who is the SWAT trainer for his dept and a big 2nd kinda guy) highly recommends against it. Especially in the big cities. If at the time of a traffic stop a LE asks me to step out of the car, I will then advise him I'm carrying. Until then, my mouth stays shut. I'm not required by law to open them.

anotherone
03-19-2007, 10:24 AM
yes, but California's biggest counterfeit protection for it's concealed carry permits is that they don't issue them to anyone...

+1000

I've heard stories of law enforcement officers not being aware that CCWs even existed in California and calling the issuing agency to confirm that the 8.5 x 11 inch piece of paper wasn't something the CCW holder just "made up". In a state where CCWs are next to impossible to get, you'd at least expect to get something made in 24 karat gold.

DirtySanchez
03-19-2007, 10:24 AM
So what, so it can be faked. Show me a document that can’t be faked?
That’s all good and all until you happen to be in the wrong place and the
wrong time and have to defend yourself. Then what happens when you get charged with illegally carrying a conceded weapon, you are just adding to the problem, plus imagine what the victims lawyer is going to
do with you.

Have fun, go make one. enjoy it while you can. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Richard
03-19-2007, 10:25 AM
Since when do you have to tell a LE you are packing. There is no law in CA that requires that. In fact my CCW instructor (who is the SWAT trainer for his dept and a big 2nd kinda guy) highly recommends against it. Especially in the big cities. If at the time of a traffic stop a LE asks me to step out of the car, I will then advise him I'm carrying. Until then, my mouth stays shut. I'm not required by law to open them.

Exactly.....no need to heighten his tension level.

If it becomes necessary for me to tell him, my hands will be visible and to my side.;)

tango-52
03-19-2007, 10:29 AM
One of the terms and conditions that is stated on CCWs issued by the Orange County Sheriff Department is that you will notify any LEO of your permit when contacted, presuming you are armed at the time. If you are unarmed, it is a non-issue obviously. Failure to notify can result in revocation of your CCW. If you are not from OC, then the restrictions could be different.

50 Freak
03-19-2007, 10:33 AM
Wow that sucks....OC's Sheriff's dept obviously is adding their own little thing to a STATE ISSUED CCW. Wonder if it is enforced outside of OC.

tango-52
03-19-2007, 10:41 AM
Wow that sucks....OC's Sheriff's dept obviously is adding their own little thing to a STATE ISSUED CCW. Wonder if it is enforced outside of OC.

Unfortunately, it is not a State-issued license. It is a County or City issued license, through the local LE jurisdiction. They can put any restrictions they want on it. In San Diego County, if your good cause is carrying large sums of money to the bank, they put the restriction on that you can use your CCw when you are carrying large sums of money to the bank ONLY. Mere mortals are not permitted to have CCW in SD County, only elites and heavy political contributors to the Sheriff.

50 Freak
03-19-2007, 10:43 AM
So your CCW is not good outside of OC????

HOLY CRAP, what good is it then. Mine is good for anywhere in the state of CA.

The regular CCW's only restrictions are carrying in bars, state buildings and common carriers (airplanes, trains, buses, etc)

SunshineGlocker
03-19-2007, 10:45 AM
So what, so it can be faked. Show me a document that can’t be faked?

A California drivers license. Any officer can run it through the computer and get an immediate confirmation as to whether it was issued by the DMV or not.

That’s all good and all until you happen to be in the wrong place and the
wrong time and have to defend yourself. Then what happens when you get charged with illegally carrying a conceded weapon, you are just adding to the problem, plus imagine what the victims lawyer is going to
do with you.

Have fun, go make one. enjoy it while you can. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

You're missing the point entirely. No one here is planning to fake one and use it to carry. As you point out, carrying with a fake CCW is a lot worse than carrying with no CCW. There are lots of people in CA who carry without CCWs. They are generally risking misdemeanors by doing that. Ok, a misdemeanor isn't good but it's a risk some people are willing to accept. Forging a CCW is probably a lot worse than a misdemeanor.

The point here is that it is a risk to public safety and officer safety to have such easy-to-fake CCWs out there.

tango-52
03-19-2007, 10:51 AM
So your CCW is not good outside of OC????

HOLY CRAP, what good is it then. Mine is good for anywhere in the state of CA.

The licenses are good for anywhere in the state, regardless of which county issues it. But they are all issued at the local level, not the state. Not like my UT or FL where I can contact a state licensing agency to handle it, and everyone else goes to that same agency. In California, we all have to rely on the whims of our local agencies and that is what makes it so unfair. I am in SD County, so my getting a CCW is out of the question. I know a bunch of people in OC who have CCWs and the process is very reasonable and I would easily qualify for one there. There is no justice.

CWM4A1
03-19-2007, 11:02 AM
Each agency can have their own policy. Although it's not required by law, you may still have your CCW pulled because you didn't follow issuing agency's policy. There's a difference between CCW and just transporting your firearm.

What I'd do in this case is to hand my DL and CCW together to the LEO w/o saying a word. If he needs to know where it is then I will tell him. Telling LEO you have a gun and CCW license, he will only hear the part "you have a gun" then everything will go down south from there.

SunshineGlocker
03-19-2007, 11:04 AM
if you have one they know just about everything about you anyway not to mention their is a list thats availible to at least the cheif of police or the sheriff that they can access.

Sigh.

Yes, the ISSUING authority has files somewhere that have tons of information. Those files are only accessible by whichever staff is authorized to access them, and it's likely that that isn't a fast process and it probably can only be done during business hours for most authorities.

Someone has a CCW from tiny Alpine County. This person gets stopped for a traffic infraction in Kern County. Bakersfield PD has this guy pulled over, and the guy shows him his license and CCW. It's 1am on a Sunday morning. Bakersfield PD calls up Alpine SO to verify the CCW. An "on call" staff person picks up the phone and says, "gee, I don't know. I'm at home right now and I don't have access to the files. We have a lot of permits issued but I don't specifically remember that name. Could you call back Monday morning please?"

Then what happens? Bakersfield PD could hold the guy 'til Monday morning. Or they could let him go. It's the devil's choice, right?

spencerhut
03-19-2007, 11:06 AM
1. My CCW has been embossed with the county seal.
2. The front gun list is full so they started typing on the back. Gotta love Madera County. :D
3. I was told specifically NOT to laminate it.
4. My understanding is the best thing to do when stopped is hand over you CCW to the officer along with you D/L and insurance papers. Let them read it for themselves. This way it also keeps you or them from doing / saying something stupid like "gun" or "I'm packing/carrying" etc.

Spencer

50 Freak
03-19-2007, 11:08 AM
The licenses are good for anywhere in the state, regardless of which county issues it. But they are all issued at the local level, not the state.

I know that...my CCW is issued by my local LE. And is good state wide. And as such, I would think you would have to follow state regulations, not just county regs. Hence, if the OC LE requires you to furnish your CCW to any LE, but the state does not, I would think outside of OC, state law trumps local regulations.

Unless upon your application, one of the requirements for applying is your having to supply your CCW. In that case, I guess it could be argued your CCW is not valid if you do not meet that requirement. Do you remember signing something like that?

P.S. I was also told not to laminate my CCW too, and to put it in a plastic case. I prefer just to make a photocopy of it.

tango-52
03-19-2007, 11:15 AM
Hence, if the OC LE requires you to furnish your CCW to any LE, but the state does not, I would think outside of OC, state law trumps local regulations.

Unless upon your application, one of the requirements for applying is your having to supply your CCW. In that case, I guess it could be argued your CCW is not valid if you do not meet that requirement. Do you remember signing something like that?

Any restriction that the LE agency decides to put on your use of your CCW will be typed onto your license and will be available to any LEO that reads it. The restrictions are placed after you have completed your application and interview at the discretion of the issuing agency.

SunshineGlocker
03-19-2007, 11:17 AM
And the restrictions are legally binding. The permit holder must follow them, or he can lose the permit.

50 Freak
03-19-2007, 11:29 AM
Wow, my permit only has a stamp in the back that says:

Carrying of concealed weapons is not autorized when the holder is:

1) consuming alchohol
2) under medication
3) At commerical airport/or on commerical airline
4) In or around county courthouse
5) present at any area where weapons are prohibited
6) on any school grounds
7) in or on any building or grounds of the State Capital.

Some other mumbo jumbo but that's it.

Everywhere else is okey dokey...no regulations to present my CCW to anyone.

SunshineGlocker
03-19-2007, 11:34 AM
Everywhere else is okey dokey...

Not quite. You still have state and federal law. You can't carry in a polling place, for instance, even though that is not listed on your CCW. And notice that these restrictions on your permit go further than state law. State law would allow you to carry in the state capitol, I believe (may be wrong on that though). Also state law would allow you to carry on school grounds, but your county doesn't let you. They have the authority to do that.

no regulations to present my CCW to anyone.

Apparently not, but it's still a good idea to identify yourself as having a CCW if you are stopped by a LEO, etc.

DirtySanchez
03-19-2007, 11:40 AM
A California drivers license. Any officer can run it through the computer and get an immediate confirmation as to whether it was issued by the DMV or not.



You're missing the point entirely. No one here is planning to fake one and use it to carry. As you point out, carrying with a fake CCW is a lot worse than carrying with no CCW. There are lots of people in CA who carry without CCWs. They are generally risking misdemeanors by doing that. Ok, a misdemeanor isn't good but it's a risk some people are willing to accept. Forging a CCW is probably a lot worse than a misdemeanor.

The point here is that it is a risk to public safety and officer safety to have such easy-to-fake CCWs out there.

Not every one can swipe a CDL, yet many places use it as a form of ID.
So yes it can be faked, hell give me a couple of hours in my office and I could
have a CDL with the strip.

The point here was that they can be faked, to which I say, "So what, what good is a fake CCW"

SunshineGlocker
03-19-2007, 11:53 AM
"So what, what good is a fake CCW"

It isn't. But criminals do dumb things all the time, and this is a dumb thing criminals could do that could endanger officer safety. An officer gets handed something that looks like a CCW. He may at that point let his guard down or get out of the "combat mindset" that he should be in. That hesitation, that moment of inattention could be a real danger. Same with citizens. What about someone entering a school? It's legal to carry a gun into a school with a CA CCW. If someone has a fake CCW, what if that let him get a gun onto a campus? Maybe this is far-fetched, because schools are very sensitive about this stuff, but it's a scary what-if.

Contrast that to a Utah CCW. You can recognize it at a glance. Yes, every physical thing can be faked but there is a world of difference between a UT CCW or CA DL on the one hand and a flimsy piece of black-and-white paper on the other hand.

Wulf
03-19-2007, 12:08 PM
If someone has a fake CCW, what if that let him get a gun onto a campus? Maybe this is far-fetched, because schools are very sensitive about this stuff, but it's a scary what-if.


I think you're barking up the wrong tree....or perhaps no tree at all. I've been permitted for years and only 4 people have ever seen my permit. The sheriff that signed it, the clerk that renews it, me, and the guy at the gun store that uses it for proof of training. I've been on campus plenty of times without showing it so the ability to do so with a fake is irrelevant. Basically, the permit itself is irrelevant. I could just as easily carry without it and if it became necessary to show it just say, "hey, I have a permit from X County, please call to verify that". In terms of the value of its physical presence, the actual permit is one of the most useless things in my wallet.

As long as you don't ever use the gun or give an officer cause to pat you down the format of the permit is irrelevant. If you do use the gun or give an officer cause to pat you down, you're in for a much more through examination of your right to carry then even the most security laden, counter proof card could provide. End of issue.

Really the only thing a card style permit would mean as far as I'm concerned is that I could accidentally wash my wallet without destroying my permit.

For that matter the current format of the permit is advantageous for the agency and the carrier because it allows you to list and unlist guns easily between renewals.

tango-52
03-19-2007, 12:17 PM
For that matter the current format of the permit is advantageous for the agency and the carrier because it allows you to list and unlist guns easily between renewals.
Which brings up a good point. Why should I have to list what guns I carry? FL & UT don't seem to care. It would certainly be more user friendly to be able to choose which guns to carry under different circumstances, or if you have one in the shop to carry another.

Wulf
03-19-2007, 12:23 PM
Which brings up a good point. Why should I have to list what guns I carry? FL & UT don't seem to care. It would certainly be more user friendly to be able to choose which guns to carry under different circumstances, or if you have one in the shop to carry another.

I agree with the sentiment, but the state law as written requires that guns carried be listed. Most jurisdictions limit you to 3, one per blank on the form, as such, people that do change circumstances as you mentioned go in and get guns taken off and put on. A hard card spit out of a machine in Sacramento like a drivers license would make those swaps difficult and expensive.

I'd be all for a hard card if they changed it to an open ended "weapon carry" card. But I dont think you could push a bill through to change even one little thing about the current system without fouling it up even worse.

DirtySanchez
03-19-2007, 12:28 PM
It isn't. But criminals do dumb things all the time, and this is a dumb thing criminals could do that could endanger officer safety. An officer gets handed something that looks like a CCW. He may at that point let his guard down or get out of the "combat mindset" that he should be in. That hesitation, that moment of inattention could be a real danger. Same with citizens. What about someone entering a school? It's legal to carry a gun into a school with a CA CCW. If someone has a fake CCW, what if that let him get a gun onto a campus? Maybe this is far-fetched, because schools are very sensitive about this stuff, but it's a scary what-if.

Contrast that to a Utah CCW. You can recognize it at a glance. Yes, every physical thing can be faked but there is a world of difference between a UT CCW or CA DL on the one hand and a flimsy piece of black-and-white paper on the other hand.

Ok, well criminals will carry with our without a permit and as far as I am concerned the members of this board are not criminals. So I don’t see that
as an issue here, what I am worried about is someone here thinking about
Making a fake one so they can carry, in which case that would be a very bad move. I wasn't really thinking about officer safety as your Officer safety protocols should be followed regardless who you dealing with, even other off duty LEO. I do see what you are saying though.

sseric75
03-19-2007, 1:58 PM
I think with the amount of money I've spent to get my California CCW I should have gotten something that looks more like a permit than a receipt.

50 Freak
03-19-2007, 2:12 PM
To tell you the truth, I think it's a bunch of crock the state has to sell me the ability to protect myself.

And this ability to self protection is a "privilege" and not a right. If our founding fathers saw the way it was now, they would have all sailed back to England and never even bothered with this "land of the free".

Fate
03-19-2007, 8:52 PM
To tell you the truth, I think it's a bunch of crock the state has to sell me the ability to protect myself.

And this ability to self protection is a "privilege" and not a right. If our founding fathers saw the way it was now, they would have all sailed back to England and never even bothered with this "land of the free".
Sure seems like a right if you read the CA Constitution.

CALIFORNIA CONSTITUTION
ARTICLE 1 DECLARATION OF RIGHTS

SECTION 1. All people are by nature free and independent and have
inalienable rights. Among these are enjoying and defending life and
liberty, acquiring, possessing, and protecting property, and pursuing
and obtaining safety, happiness, and privacy.

M. Sage
03-19-2007, 9:07 PM
To tell you the truth, I think it's a bunch of crock the state has to sell me the ability to protect myself.

And this ability to self protection is a "privilege" and not a right. If our founding fathers saw the way it was now, they would have all sailed back to England and never even bothered with this "land of the free".

+1 to all that. I'm not even going to bother trying to get a CCW... I'll have to make due with a spring-assisted knife.

Stanze
03-20-2007, 1:07 AM
+1 to all that. I'm not even going to bother trying to get a CCW... I'll have to make due with a spring-assisted knife.

I too carry a spring-assisted knife and hope I'll never see the day where I wished I was CCW risking the misdomeanor charges, but wasn't and am now a murder victim.

I know people that carried, damn the law...and are alive because they used their firearm in self defense. Depending on the DA, charges for CCW without a permit were filed or not filed.

The penalty for CCW w/o permit is a misdomeanor!!!! What is the law trying to tell us??? Getting caught carrying is not the end of the world,...getting caught not carrying can be.

I know old people that pack anything from a .22LR PPK to a .357 Magnum? It's not so much that they don't want to follow the law as it is that they REFUSE to be a victim. You just gotta respect that! Anyone that doesn't is a robot!

MadMex
03-20-2007, 6:01 AM
I used to live in a state that issued a temporary ccw on a 5.5 by 8.5 inch piece of paper (I guess they were going for the “suitable for framing” look) until the designation could be printed on your next drivers license. Imagine having to show your DL as a picture ID at a bank to someone “in the know”.

The only work around was to obtain a state non-driver’s photo ID with the designation printed on it (another $15 or so and a trip to the DMV). The woman at the DMV turned into a total hag on me when she realized why I needed the ID. Ccw discrimination.

jnojr
03-20-2007, 2:17 PM
Hmmm...

I'm thinking, "CCW Reform Act of 2007".

Lots of "safety", "security", "for the children"... oh, and BTW, a standardized shall-issue that's worded quite sternly :D

Who's with me? :D

Smokeybehr
03-21-2007, 8:47 AM
Hmmm...

I'm thinking, "CCW Reform Act of 2007".

Lots of "safety", "security", "for the children"... oh, and BTW, a standardized shall-issue that's worded quite sternly :D

Who's with me? :D

We'll have to call it the "Civil Rights Restoration Act of 200x" and include repeal of most of the state's gun laws, including allowing us to have ATF Class III goodies.

SunshineGlocker
03-21-2007, 10:00 AM
Hmmm...

I'm thinking, "CCW Reform Act of 2007".

Lots of "safety", "security", "for the children"... oh, and BTW, a standardized shall-issue that's worded quite sternly :D

Who's with me? :D

That's exactly what I'm thinking about too. Secure permits. Central database. Uniform training standards. Uniform BG check standards. Uniform issuance standards. Yeah!

That's why I'm making such a big deal of how insecure the current permits are.

Ravenslair
03-21-2007, 2:12 PM
...The penalty for CCW w/o permit is a misdomeanor...

As long as the gun is registered to you. If it is not registered to you, it is a felony. Just a heads up.

Mark in Eureka
03-21-2007, 2:35 PM
Mine has a state CII number. Bet its computerized. Bet dispatch can call it up anytime day or night.

Never had to show my CCW, but I bet if I ever do it will be called in and confirmed.