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View Full Version : ***GROUP BUY*** KT Ordnance KT1911A GB #2 ***CLOSED***


simpsons730
01-16-2012, 9:45 PM
CLOSED

Please send $250/frame by way of one the two following options

Option #1: Check or money order to

Sheehan Hsu
3301 N. Charles St.
Charles Commons #5160
Baltimore, MD 21218

(I am a California resident, but this is where I am currently going to school)

Option #2: PayPal to

sheehanhsu@gmail.com

If you use PayPal, please be sure to account for all fees, which brings the total to $257.75
Do NOT use any gun words if using PayPal (i.e. 1911A1, frame, pistol, etc.)
In general, KTO cautions that we stay away from using PayPal.


This second group buy of KT Ordnance KT1911A paperweights is for those who are bummed that they did not see the original group buy thread, did not have enough money at the time, want additional frames, etc.

If interested, post:
1. How many frames you would like
AND
2. What type of main spring housing you would like (standard/SMSH or one-piece/OPMSH)


March 18th, Sun - Group buy closes. Payment information sent out.
March 28th, Wed (10 days later) - Payment due and sent out to KTO.
KTO receives the money first thing April and goes to work on the frames.


The "LIST":

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Avrl8VMzsEW4dHoteUpBSUxCZHlFUGd5MTZxOExDX 0E

Please check to see if I have your order right.

Intimid8tor
01-16-2012, 10:05 PM
I want 2. I have no idea what mainspring I want since I have not done research yet.

Can we get group buy on jigs and tools as well?

savs2k
01-17-2012, 2:04 AM
if this gets set up ill be in for one for sure maby two

tujungatoes
01-17-2012, 4:59 AM
I'd be in for 2 with SMSH.

thekid96
01-17-2012, 6:03 AM
In for two.

VaderSpade
01-17-2012, 6:30 AM
I would like to see the two I ordered before committing to more, but at this point I don't even have a delivery date.
If I think they are worth the price I’ll be ordering more, and I have friends that are waiting to see them as well. But let’s not get too far ahead of ourselves.

Do we even know if KT is willing to do this again?

One of the biggest problems I see right out of the gate is the OP only has 26 posts, I don’t think a lot of us are willing to send money to someone not well known here. That’s not to say something can’t be worked out. With some group buys the money is sent to the manufacture and the item shipped direct to the customers, or maybe someone will step in to help. Nothing personal Simpsons730 some of us have lost money when people running group buys took the money and ran.

With all that said once I get mine and I like what I see I'll be wanting 2 - 4 more.

gimme
01-17-2012, 7:09 AM
If we get the 80, I'm in for one.

Akers
01-17-2012, 7:36 AM
+1, ditto.

I would like to see the two I ordered before committing to more, but at this point I don't even have a delivery date.
If I think they are worth the price Iíll be ordering more, and I have friends that are waiting to see them as well. But letís not get too far ahead of ourselves.

Do we even know if KT is willing to do this again?

One of the biggest problems I see right out of the gate is the OP only has 26 posts, I donít think a lot of us are willing to send money to someone not well known here. Thatís not to say something canít be worked out. With some group buys the money is sent to the manufacture and the item shipped direct to the customers, or maybe someone will step in to help. Nothing personal Simpsons730 some of us have lost money when people running group buys took the money and ran.

With all that said once I get mine and I like what I see I'll be wanting 2 - 4 more.

simpsons730
01-17-2012, 3:07 PM
Information corrected and consolidated with 1st post.

Ding126
01-17-2012, 3:22 PM
What part of the world is this group buy? So Cal?

KingNookie
01-17-2012, 5:38 PM
+4

I was waiting for this to come back.
My favorite all time gun and Im extremely curious on making my own.
Ive owned about 15 in my life.

bravosd6
01-17-2012, 5:48 PM
No offence to KTO. But you can buy a ready made Recon(railed) frame for $275 from Caspian, I just called them today in fact. I just don't see a point to buy these until the price is back at $200. I pulled out of the last one just for this reason. But 80 that's a ish load and its still $240. Sorry but call me the bad apple or a cheap as$ but guys that's insane.

bravosd6
01-17-2012, 5:49 PM
I'm just trying to look out for the fellow cal gunners.

savs2k
01-17-2012, 6:36 PM
If there's a trust issue going on with op id step up and do it if there was enough interest. But id like to see the first thread get theirs first and make sure there are no issues with them.

Yeah you can find a way to get a caspian frame.. that's the same thing as saying I can buy a nighthawk. We just like building stuff. Anyone who brought a frame is aware its going to cost more then just buying one and we have to spend hours of our time and extra money for tooling but this is gunsmithing/how to and now forsale after all. We might not be the logical section but were proud men in here haha

Vanilla Gorilla
01-17-2012, 6:42 PM
might be a stupid question but........is this a group buy for 80% frames or frames that just need minor fitting adjustments?

707electrician
01-17-2012, 7:01 PM
No offence to KTO. But you can buy a ready made Recon(railed) frame for $275 from Caspian, I just called them today in fact. I just don't see a point to buy these until the price is back at $200. I pulled out of the last one just for this reason. But 80 that's a ish load and its still $240. Sorry but call me the bad apple or a cheap as$ but guys that's insane.

Thats all well and good but with the CA handgun roster we can not buy caspian frames easily. If you have a solution to this problem I am all ears. I agree that the price is a little steep, especially at a minimum of 80 units but it seems to me that these are the only true 60% frames on the market.

The thing that is disappointing to me is that he is only doing the one piece msh which I don't want

savs2k
01-17-2012, 7:41 PM
They are 60 or 80% frames gorilla. Which ever you prefer to call them. A few holes need to be drilled which can be done on a drill press but the barrel seat and the slide rails need to be done on a mill. Well should be.. you can be creative if you are good with machining. I wouldn't touch the frame with a drill press or dremel personally. Kt has the nicest and best quality 80% frames avalible which is why they cost a bit more then a casting for 100.

simpsons730
01-20-2012, 2:25 AM
Anybody else interested? We are currently at 13 frames tentatively.

simpsons730
01-24-2012, 9:05 AM
CORRECTION: KTO is willing to do both types of mainspring housings!

Also we are at 15 frames.

Akers
01-24-2012, 9:09 AM
Might want to add the names of who are in on the #1 post and highlight a paid/notpaid area.

bigcalidave
01-24-2012, 9:53 AM
That sounded like a really iffy response from the manufacturer, like he is liable to start making some serious delays. We have all seen it before. I don't think ANY group buy should start again until everyone from the first batch has received their order.

Intimid8tor
01-24-2012, 1:26 PM
Is the only difference in the main spring housing, straight vs curved? Any functional difference?

simpsons730
01-25-2012, 8:36 PM
Is the only difference in the main spring housing, straight vs curved? Any functional difference?

I'm pretty sure the OPMSH does away with the beavertail grip safety.

goober
01-25-2012, 8:37 PM
I'm pretty sure the OPMSH does away with the beavertail grip safety.

yup

badduggy
01-25-2012, 9:30 PM
the front strap is a bit unusual. is there any chance of a straight front strap?

savs2k
01-26-2012, 5:57 AM
the kto 80% do NOT come with the finger groove. They were being made flat

Intimid8tor
01-26-2012, 7:29 AM
I'm pretty sure the OPMSH does away with the beavertail grip safety.

Thanks.

Cali-V
01-26-2012, 7:37 AM
FYI... Your photo of the OPMSH above, is from Novakģ Designs "The Answer", not KTO...
The two are close but not the same...

goober
01-26-2012, 7:43 AM
FYI... Your photo of the OPMSH above, is from Novakģ Designs "The Answer", not KTO...
The two are close but not the same...

KTO OPMSH
http://www.ktordnance.com/kto/detail/op_grip_safety.jpg

user name
01-26-2012, 1:27 PM
put me down for 1 as a tenative if the order gets big enough

simpsons730
01-27-2012, 2:28 PM
20% of the way there.

bmacpolo
01-30-2012, 9:39 PM
Put me down for 1 also

Rockit
01-30-2012, 10:04 PM
What does it take to finish one of these?
Is it something like the AR 80% that can be done on a drill press or is it mill only?

simpsons730
02-01-2012, 4:14 PM
What does it take to finish one of these?
Is it something like the AR 80% that can be done on a drill press or is it mill only?

You will need more than just a drill press.

dchang0
02-09-2012, 3:19 PM
20% of the way there.

Aim to go past the goal by as much as 20%, because there will always be people backing out.

My two buddies and I received ours from the first GB very early on and were impressed with the quality. There are some annoyances, such as the weird arc-shaped bevel at the back end of the rail and the brazing line, but they're easy enough to remove.

goober
02-09-2012, 5:49 PM
You will most likely need more than just a drill press.

more than "most likely"... a 60-80% 1911 frame is NOT a drill-press only project.

Aim to go past the goal by as much as 20%, because there will always be people backing out.

My two buddies and I received ours from the first GB very early on and were impressed with the quality. There are some annoyances, such as the weird arc-shaped bevel at the back end of the rail and the brazing line, but they're easy enough to remove.

agreed, you want to overshoot by at least that much, at least at the "I'm in!" stage, before folks have really really committed and $$ starts to be exchanged, in order to cover the inevitable back-outs & flakes.
its also worth noting that the first KTO GB, which was conceived in late July & locked in in late September of last year, is STILL not complete. there are about 8 or so frames outstanding.
this is not meant to discourage you or disparage KTO; everyone in GB #1 that has received their frames (the vast majority of participants) is quite happy with the product, and the GB went very smoothly overall.
just injecting some reality into the mix for GB #2. everyone should know what they are getting into: it will be many (at least 3, maybe 6 or more) months from the time you pull the trigger on this and the time folks have product in their hands.

simpsons730
02-27-2012, 4:14 PM
KTO wanted an end of the month update, so here is one more bump for those interested.

simpsons730
03-02-2012, 10:02 AM
I have some GOOD NEWS! Despite not reaching 80 frames, KTO has taken a look at the preliminary numbers and has decided to still extend the group buy price by merging our group buy with another run he is making. With that said, please let me know the final amount of frames AND what type of main spring housing you would like.

savs2k
03-02-2012, 12:28 PM
So the current price on the frames are 240 and not 200 correct?

tdaughg
03-02-2012, 5:45 PM
id be in for 3 at $240 and i dont care which mainspring housing is included. if i had to pick one i'd go with the one piece.

gatesbox
03-02-2012, 6:53 PM
If still open I'll take one OPMSH..... Keep informed. If folks are shy about handling money, I'd volunteer to work with the OP on collecting and sending payment...

simpsons730
03-03-2012, 8:28 AM
So the current price on the frames are 240 and not 200 correct?

That is correct.

If still open I'll take one OPMSH..... Keep informed. If folks are shy about handling money, I'd volunteer to work with the OP on collecting and sending payment...

GB is still open and I have you down for one frame with the OPMSH. And thank you for offering! I know a couple people were on the fence about send money my way. Hopefully this will convince them otherwise.

simpsons730
03-04-2012, 6:25 PM
Group buy will close around mid-March. Currently finalizing a schedule with KTO.

bmacpolo
03-04-2012, 7:56 PM
Who do I send the $$$ to?
Thanks

MyMalteseFalcon
03-04-2012, 8:13 PM
"That's all well and good but with the CA handgun roster we can not buy Caspian frames easily."

What's the deal with not being able to buy frames from Caspian?

Are they on a ban list or?

Does that include 100% completed frames, or just 80% frames.

Would like someone to pls fill me in on this one...

Thanks!

:mnl::mnl::mnl:

goober
03-04-2012, 8:37 PM
"That's all well and good but with the CA handgun roster we can not buy Caspian frames easily."

What's the deal with not being able to buy frames from Caspian?

Are they on a ban list or?

Does that include 100% completed frames, or just 80% frames.

Would like someone to pls fill me in on this one...

Thanks!

:mnl::mnl::mnl:

b/c of PC 31900-31200 and the "safe handgun roster", buying any kind of handgun frame is problematic.
an "80%" frame is not a firearm, so buying it is no problem at all.

MyMalteseFalcon
03-04-2012, 8:55 PM
So, then how does one finish an 80% frame?

I can't see an issue with buying a 100% frame, have it sent to an FFL, registering etc. Thus its a legal gun. I don't understand why that would be problematic.

Who then would finish the rest of the 20% to make the frame complete? I know I can't do it, reading here that one would need to have it milled etc. Best for me to risk the wrath of the God's then buy something that will only be a paperweight in the end...And NO I'm not trying to rain on this parade.

Just curious as to how one would finish the frame to make it usable....

gatesbox
03-04-2012, 9:11 PM
So, then how does one finish an 80% frame?

I can't see an issue with buying a 100% frame, have it sent to an FFL, registering etc. Thus its a legal gun. I don't understand why that would be problematic.

Who then would finish the rest of the 20% to make the frame complete? I know I can't do it, reading here that one would need to have it milled etc. Best for me to risk the wrath of the God's then buy something that will only be a paperweight in the end...And NO I'm not trying to rain on this parade.

Just curious as to how one would finish the frame to make it usable....

sorry edited post because it was snarky.... But those who buy these frames or castings have the mechanical ability to finish them. Any other questions use your google fu or post another thread inquiring about castings and unfinished frames, this thread is to organize a group buy. There are several blogs, and other threads on the necessary tooling and milling operations necessary.... If you have an interest in legally smithing your own firearms or building hard to aquire items, or like the idea of legal but undocumented/registered firearms than DIY might be for you.

MyMalteseFalcon
03-04-2012, 9:37 PM
Seems I am in the wrong place, I thought that CalGuns was about ppl helping ppl re answering questions. I see that my questions will not be answered here, as perhaps no one really knows...If I had the time to Google these things, I would. I don't have time to waste, of which I wasted too much already....

Yes, there are forums that cater to many different types of weapons. They in turn answer questions or send links to help answer them. I thought Cal Guns was one of 'em.

As for building legal home weapons, I've a few of them under my belt. So the legalities of such things are not unknown to me. I've just never messed with an 80% frame.

I WAS planing on getting in on the band wagon and buying a frame. But now I see that this is not the place to do it. When I buy something, it's nice to get answers...I don't like to waste time or money.

IN my book, if someone asked a question, I would not direct them elsewhere if I could help that person out. It's called being respectful to another board member. But maybe I'm old fashioned.

Best of luck on your group buy, this was not a flame nor was I trying to insult anyone.
I'm also going to delete this subscription as to not wanting to read someone else's "advice" on what should or shouldn't do...forums are made to ask questions and help your fellow member. I've wasted enough time on this already, and sorry to of wasted yours....Thanks.

vmwerks
03-04-2012, 10:36 PM
Put me down for 2, both with 2piece msh

Musashi
03-05-2012, 12:37 AM
put me down for 1 with a opmsh

indobos72
03-05-2012, 9:51 PM
Only see 60% frames on the KT website. Wanted to see what was left to be done. Are they taking their 60% up t 80% for this deal?

simpsons730
03-06-2012, 9:03 AM
Only see 60% frames on the KT website. Wanted to see what was left to be done. Are they taking their 60% up t 80% for this deal?

No. The frames will be the the "60%" ones you see on the KTO website, with the exception of the finger groove, which will not be there. I think some people are referring to them as "80%" because AR lower receiver paperweights are designated as such.

simpsons730
03-08-2012, 5:28 PM
Group buy closes in 10 days!!!

kable
03-09-2012, 9:12 AM
I would like to be put down for 2 frames. And the SMSH. As for the finishing I have a lathe and mill. I don.t think people realize what a cnc machine does by some of the posts here. You still have to program it to do the work. And from what I can see all that is left to do is done on a manual machine anyway. People are so gullible to believe all you need is the machine and it will do all the work for you.They will never finish the gun without paying way more than its worth.

goober
03-09-2012, 10:16 AM
Only see 60% frames on the KT website. Wanted to see what was left to be done. Are they taking their 60% up t 80% for this deal?

No. The frames will be the the "60%" ones you see on the KTO website, with the exception of the finger groove, which will not be there. I think some people are referring to them as "80%" because AR lower receiver paperweights are designated as such.

the percentage numbers vendors and other folks use when talking about unfinished "paperweight" frames/receivers are completely subjective relative levels of completion, and thus have very little meaning.

sometimes a vendor will call something < "80%" as a purely political thing so that it will sound like his product is far behind the threshold of firearm status... but that's all just talk. it's either a firearm or it isn't, and as far as what needs to be done to get it there, one really needs to look at each product and the specific operations that need to be done, rather than rely on a nearly meaningless percentage number.

kable
03-09-2012, 12:12 PM
I have looked at the KT frames in question. They will require a milling machine. The proper cutters and drill bits and reamers to finish the frame. My opinion is the frames are closer to 80% than 60% finished. This is just the frame not the complete gun. Thais more like 50% done if you are purchasing the rest of the parts 100% complete. I believe tooling will be the biggest expense. 250.00 for the jig and 100.00 - 200.00 for proper tooling. Now I said proper tooling not the tooling KT offers. That's bare minimum and not high quality either. I do have one question are the frames cast here in the USA and of what material are they using?

simpsons730
03-15-2012, 8:13 PM
Group buy ends this Sunday.

gatesbox
03-17-2012, 11:10 AM
Figure I would offer a one day left bump.... I assume once we get a final count Simpson will verify that KT will take our order, and we can then start collecting. I think in the end the first group buy had their order fulfilled with only one post office snafu...

simpsons730
03-19-2012, 4:48 PM
I have looked at the KT frames in question. They will require a milling machine. The proper cutters and drill bits and reamers to finish the frame. My opinion is the frames are closer to 80% than 60% finished. This is just the frame not the complete gun. Thais more like 50% done if you are purchasing the rest of the parts 100% complete. I believe tooling will be the biggest expense. 250.00 for the jig and 100.00 - 200.00 for proper tooling. Now I said proper tooling not the tooling KT offers. That's bare minimum and not high quality either. I do have one question are the frames cast here in the USA and of what material are they using?



KTO had the following to say in response:

"I do not know what this guy means about "proper" tooling. And I can tell you that what I sell for "tools/tooling" are the highest quality, and far exceed what is required to make several frames, not just one or two."



And the following are needed to complete a KTO 1911 frame:

A mill of some kind (bench or full size)
The angle jig (is a big help to have)
The key-seat cutter for the slide rails
5/32 drill for the hammer hole
#35 (.110) drill for the sear hole
21/32 ball end mill for the barrel seat
A 1/2 collet for the key-seat cutter
A 5/8 collet for the 21/32 ball end mill
A drill chuck for the two drills

tujungatoes
03-19-2012, 5:15 PM
I just got the PM on this. I had completely forgotten about this GB, and unfortunately have my funds committed to other projects. I must regretfully withdraw. I apologize for not keeping up to date.

kable
03-19-2012, 5:47 PM
I would never drill a hole without reaming it afterwards if I wanted it to be a good fit. That is what I was referring to. Good enough is not always the best way to do things.A drill leaves a rough hole and it may not be round as it should be. You can drill it but it"s not the proper way to do it.

kable
03-19-2012, 5:58 PM
I thought you were in California. Their is no way I am sending money to someone on the other side of the country I don't know. I am backing out because of your location.

gatesbox
03-19-2012, 9:22 PM
Again if it helps I'll offer to collect and send payment direct to KTO.... I am local in Bay Area, and will provide my address and professional information.... Folks can google my RL name and see that I am arguably in a trust worthy profession and can clearly find me online.. Just a suggestion....

tdaughg
03-19-2012, 9:28 PM
paypal fees are 3% correct?

i figure between paypal and visa ill be covered if something goes wrong.

kable
03-20-2012, 3:51 AM
Gatesbox what address do I send the money to.

gatesbox
03-20-2012, 6:59 AM
Let me coordinate with Simpson first.... Will get back to you soon....

simpsons730
03-20-2012, 11:14 AM
paypal fees are 3% correct?

i figure between paypal and visa ill be covered if something goes wrong.

Correct. The 3% fee brings the total (if sending money via PayPal) to $257.75.

tdaughg
03-20-2012, 6:03 PM
payment sent via paypal for 3 frames all with the standard mainspring housing.

Travis H.

simpsons730
03-20-2012, 8:38 PM
payment sent via paypal for 3 frames all with the standard mainspring housing.

Travis H.

Payment received.

To clarify, would you like me to change your order to the SMSH? You originally had asked for the OPMSH.

tdaughg
03-20-2012, 10:05 PM
Payment received.

To clarify, would you like me to change your order to the SMSH? You originally had asked for the OPMSH.

yeah, that would be great. thanks.

Sideways
03-22-2012, 1:26 PM
I hate it when other people do this, but I am special...

I am just confirming that I am four days to late to get in on this, correct?

If you have extras because somebody had an unforeseen problem, PM me.

Thanks

gatesbox
04-04-2012, 10:21 PM
Just wanted to post and make sure all participants are aware that final payment has been sent to KT. I have been working with Simpson to make sure everyone has a good experience with this GB and will help make sure delivery is quick once these frames are received from KT... Now we excersize patience while the machines do their thing...

bmacpolo
04-04-2012, 10:29 PM
Just wanted to post and make sure all participants are aware that final payment has been sent to KT. I have been working with Simpson to make sure everyone has a good experience with this GB and will help make sure delivery is quick once these frames are received from KT... Now we excersize patience while the machines do their thing...



Thanks! I can't wait to get it!

kable
04-09-2012, 11:10 AM
I thought I would post a picture of my Lathe and Mill . This has been completely gone through and modified.It was a piece of junk when I started. Nothing worked correctly. If you are thinking of buying one buy it used and expect to tear it completely apart and starting over to get it to perform well. Table rock is the biggest problem. The only way to fix it is machining the dovetail on the table over to make it straight. Then make tight gibs that are very tight.

Kuyote
04-09-2012, 3:06 PM
Damn can't believe I missed this. If anyone doesn't feel that they can complete the objective. Let me know, I'll gladly take over, for the admission price.

simpsons730
05-09-2012, 11:45 AM
It's been a month now so I went ahead and emailed KTO to check in and got a near instantaneous reply.

The machining will be done next Tuesday and everything will be sent off to be heat treated. ETA on the delivery date is 3-4 weeks.

bmacpolo
05-09-2012, 1:18 PM
Thanks for the update!

:kilt:

kable
05-15-2012, 6:01 PM
What happens if the frames are machined wrong. Will they warranty them and fix the issues?

simpsons730
05-19-2012, 9:11 PM
What happens if the frames are machined wrong. Will they warranty them and fix the issues?

I assume you are referring to dchang0's post in the original thread. The most common problems which seemed rare (possibly because half the group have not started to work on their frames) are caused by excess material which can be removed. If you do encounter a msh that is too wide I/we can contact KTO about rectifying the issue. However, I have started work on my frame (from the first gb, not this one) and received a flawless frame.

kable
05-20-2012, 5:24 AM
Yes I read the post and what I read was confusing without a picture to see what they were talking about. I just want to make sure KTO will stand behind their work. I also want to be fair about it. As long as the fix their mistakes. I cant use a out of spec frame and this is allot of money for scrap metal. I will make sure to check them out right when I get them to make sure. I also assumed the clean up work was my responsibility to take care of and for proper fit.

kable
06-01-2012, 6:38 PM
It's getting down to the wire. We should be receiving our frames soon. That if they are on time.

gatesbox
06-01-2012, 8:00 PM
I think we should be pretty close.....

kable
06-02-2012, 8:12 AM
I am waiting to see the frames before ordering the slides and barrels. So I am kind of anxious to see the quality of the machine work before I commit myself the rest of the way.

simpsons730
06-02-2012, 4:18 PM
I'll email KTO on Wednesday for an update if I don't hear anything from him by then. But I don't want to bug him as he did say three weeks and I want to respect that.

kable
06-02-2012, 6:13 PM
Yes you did say 3 to 4 weeks and Wednesday will be 4 weeks from your post.

simpsons730
06-07-2012, 3:52 PM
Spoke with KTO. Unfortunately, there is still no word from the party doing the heat treatment. He will try and get in contact with them by the end of the week.

kable
06-07-2012, 4:50 PM
I don't believe one word that guy told you. He is now behind 4 weeks and blames it on a heat treater that he hasn't heard from and is also 4 weeks behind.I think that was a bogus excuse. Now why didn't he let you know this several weeks ago. Also why did he wait this long to call the guy.So we wait another month?

simpsons730
06-09-2012, 3:27 PM
Since KTO did ask for up to 4 weeks, he is technically only behind by a few days as of right now. However, I will agree that at the 3 week point, he definitely should have checked up on those frames and I do feel like he is probably focusing more time and energy on getting BATFE approval for his 100 Sig frame group buy.

goober
06-09-2012, 4:01 PM
Since KTO did ask for up to 4 weeks, he is technically only behind by a few days as of right now. However, I will agree that at the 3 week point, he definitely should have checked up on those frames and I do feel like he is probably focusing more time and energy on getting BATFE approval for his 100 Sig frame group buy.

AFAIK there is nothing to do but wait on BATFE for the approval on the 80% Sig frame. He sent it in over a month ago.
If Rick says there was a delay w/ the heat treaters, there probably was. I've known hi to fall down a little bit now and then on communication, but haven't found honesty to be a problem.

kable
06-09-2012, 7:16 PM
I worked for a machine shop in Redwood city . The heat treatment never took more than a few days. You cannot make money unless you get the product out. To much time has passed to blame it on them. Machine work gets behind but heat treatment is a in and out process.Something is not right here. Also why has he not told you today what is going on. This is the end of the week. Did he some how forget to contact you and tell you what is going on. I suspect he got behind and put us on the back burner since we already paid. I know he reads this forum so he is now out of excuses.

gatesbox
06-09-2012, 7:22 PM
Patience is indeed a virtue. KT has a fairly good Rep of coming through but not always on time. Is he sending them to.me or you Simpson?

kable
06-09-2012, 7:45 PM
My guess is they never made it to the heat treatment shop. Unless it has been in the last few days. The machine shop we deal with where I work always put us on the back burner until we complain. He farms out work sometimes just to catch up. It always has to go back when he does that. So he has to do the job twice. It never pays to do what they do but money talks.

simpsons730
06-09-2012, 8:52 PM
kable- KTO did not forget. He sent me an email on Friday, June 8th:
"I will call them [the heat treaters] Monday"
So hopefully I will have an update with what's really going on then and get everything straitened out.

gatesbox- I will have them directed to you, since as you mentioned in our previous PM's, shipping to the other members will probably be faster coming from you.

kable
06-10-2012, 4:32 AM
Simpson first you said the end of the week and then now it's Monday. I know he didn't forget . He is behind and doesn't want us to know that.The heat treatment shop is just a phone call away. He must have sprang his hand or has a ear infection that is preventing him from calling.

goober
06-10-2012, 8:19 AM
kable-
you're kind of new around here. i'm not sure if you've participated in any group buys before, and your iTrader rating is 0 so i have no idea if you have ever done any transactions here at all. but i'm going to suggest that you may want to calm down a bit.
a departure from the planned schedule of a few days or a week or even a few weeks is not uncommon. stuff happens.
its true, communication is important, and like most folks KTO can always improve their customer service and communication skills.
but I've dealt with KTO extensively and as others who also have experience in these things have said, you're reacting a bit hysterically to this small delay and comms breakdown. if these glitches are too much for you to deal with, perhaps group buys, and the discounts that come with them, are not for you.

kable
06-10-2012, 9:50 AM
Funny you should mention that. I looked for KTO on the Better Business Bureau and they don't exist as a business as far as they know.Yes I know how to use the site. Funny how so many people here don't have history.Maybe because we don't want any.

goober
06-10-2012, 10:16 AM
Funny you should mention that. I looked for KTO on the Better Business Bureau and they don't exist as a business as far as they know.Yes I know how to use the site. Funny how so many people here don't have history.Maybe because we don't want any.

wow, that's some great detective work you've done.
do you even know what the BBB is or how it works? :rolleyes:


sorry simpsons730, i won't muck up your GB thread any more with this exchange. i don't see it going anywhere good.
just wanted to inject a little reality is all.

kable
06-10-2012, 10:40 AM
Yes I do even if your not a member they still keep record of all businesses and still give you a rating.If you have a business license and a address they should have some record of you.

kable
06-11-2012, 7:57 PM
I seen Simpson online awhile ago. I suspect no word from KTO. The frames are sitting somewhere unfinished. That is obvious at this point.

simpsons730
06-12-2012, 4:59 PM
The frames are getting picked up from heat treatment this week. It will take 5 days for them to get trucked back to KTO, who has promised to get on them right away and will put another 2 weeks of work in on them.

Personally, I am very excited about this news and have been satisfied with the rate of work on KTO's end. In the first KTO 1911 80% frame group buy I sent out my money just before it closed towards the end of September and received my frame around the same time the following January.

kable
06-12-2012, 6:11 PM
So he squeezed out 4 more weeks. Well you know you cant cover for him again.It wont be remotely believable at that point.

couch
06-15-2012, 10:32 AM
Jesus man, relax.

Take a look at all the other successful KTO group buys. If you think you're waiting long now for the frame wait until you order a custom slide, or any other custom parts. For having a history in machine shops you really don't seem to grasp the concept very well.

KTO is not screwing anyone, he has a good rep with quality parts. Just sometimes a little longer than expected. Everyone that has dealt with him, which is now over a few hundred of us, we can pretty much all say we are happy with the service KTO provides.

If you can't handle a wait, go buy something from your local FFL... oh, you're going to have to wait there too ,minimum ten days.

Building these 1911's into properly functioning well running guns is not an overnight affair. So if you think this is a quick and easy project, you are very much mistaken. Some extra time on the KTO end is the least of your worries.

kable
06-15-2012, 11:55 AM
Let's clear up something here I don't buy off people who can't deliver in a reasonable time. So what in your opinion would you consider reasonable, Since we paid up front I tend to worry a little. But since you had to add you 2 cents I would like to know how long is long enough. It seems you have a clear idea so share with us .

couch
06-15-2012, 3:41 PM
Lets see... The KTO group buy that I was in closed on September 25, 2011. I received my frame pretty much on time, but received my slide today. So, depending on what route you are going for on your slide, you won't be able to do **** with your frame until the rest of your parts, that you HAVEN'T even ordered yet, arrive. Given the specifics of my situation, I'd say I'm fine with my situation and I'd give KTO nine months to deliver. ;)

The timeframe would depend on if the seller/mfg had a rep of delivering on time or not, and the quality of the parts received.I would be willing to wait longer for a product from a company that has a reputation on delivering quality products. This is why I backed out of the ARES group buy. They are a relatively new company selling a product that they haven't even shown a final version of yet. KTO has been around for quite some time now selling the same product you are buying in this group buy. It is KNOWN that KTO lags, but they ALWAYS deliver product that is worth the wait. You obviously did not do any research before jumping into this group buy at the last minute. There are previous group buys for the EXACT SAME part as the one in this thread. There are photos and tons of information regarding the very product you are buying, yet you say you don't trust the mfg or believe he is real.

Have you finished your Sarco slides yet? Do you have your barrels yet? These will all need to be finished and/or on hand before you do anything with with the KTO frames, so focus on those if you do not already have them ready before you worry about the frames. They WILL arrive, just be patient. No reason to make a huge mess of this thread.

goober
06-15-2012, 5:00 PM
Yes I do even if your not a member they still keep record of all businesses and still give you a rating.If you have a business license and a address they should have some record of you.

OK, Sherlock... :rolleyes:
Let us know what you find in the BBB listings for Tactical Machining (http://www.tacticalmachining.com/) in Deland, FL... (or anywhere for that matter).

And then you can tell us all how the fact that you couldn't find a BBB rating for TM is somehow indicative of the fact that they are crooks and not to be trusted.
Or, you could simply acknowledge that you are over-reacting and probably not cut out for this sort of specialty product group buy.

kable
06-15-2012, 5:56 PM
Neither one of you can answer my question. So what is your motivation here? You have no idea what is long enough so why are you here? Answer the question how long is long enough to receive a frame from KTO. The slide has nothing to do with the situation at hand.Also nine months is not a answer to give to reasonable people since it is not your money here.

couch
06-15-2012, 6:48 PM
Your money is not my money, correct. However I DID BUY multiple frames from KTO, and I can assure you he CAN BE TRUSTED. I clearly gave you a time however you failed miserably to understand what I said. Reread what I wrote. I said that if I was waiting on other parts I would be okay with waiting for the frame since I need the rest in order to do the work on the frame. If I already had the rest of the parts and was only waiting on the frame and KTO was late, then I would be bothered.

Its really simple, and if you can't understand that, or wrap your head around how the real world works then you have bigger problems to worry about than KTO being a few weeks late.

Calm down, take a breath and relax. KTO is not going to screw you. They have sold hundreds and hundred of frames, lowers, etc to many people on many forums for many years. If you don't trust them, you should have backed out. The fact that you did not back out though means you have to WAIT just like EVERYONE ELSE that is in this group buy. Notice how nobody else is spazzing out? That's because we know how this works and we know how KTO operates. You seem to be very new to this. Do a little research, aside from your BBB investigation, and you be better off.

kable
06-15-2012, 7:08 PM
I believe the 4th of July is long enough. That will be the full 4 weeks Simpsons has told us. Beyond that is unreasonable. KTO will just have to complete the job that was paid for.

couch
06-16-2012, 12:11 AM
Because that's the ONLY thing he "just" has to do.

kable
06-16-2012, 6:28 AM
No because he was paid up front. He has your money so their is no reason not to finish in a timely manner unless he is using the money for other purposes. In all the money really isn't his until the product is delivered to the customer.

couch
06-16-2012, 8:49 AM
Having someones money up front automatically means he won't have any delays or run into issues that eat time?

Did you happen to read ANY of the other multiple group buy threads involving KTO, or any other made to order mfg?

goober
06-16-2012, 9:00 AM
No because he was paid up front. He has your money so their is no reason not to finish in a timely manner unless he is using the money for other purposes. In all the money really isn't his until the product is delivered to the customer.

KTO is not a major producer. They are a boutique shop. They don't keep a lot of stock on hand, certainly not enough to satisfy group buys.
As such, parts are made-to-order. Even materials are generally purchased specifically for each job. This is why KTO needed money up front for the GB. That and to also insure he doesn't end up with a pile of product at the end of it with no buyers b/c folks backed out.
It is clear that no amount of explanation of the differences between this GB and your normal everyday retail purchase is going to get you to calm down.
I'm done with it.
Once again, simpons730, i was trying to help, but clearly its not working.

kable
06-16-2012, 9:50 AM
I see neither one of you purchased this time around . Just here to start a argument. I will handle the problem when the time comes gentlemen without your help.No need to talk to someone not directly involved anyway . You basically have no business here. So I am not going to waste my time with a couple of trouble makers.So bark as you please it wont change a thing.

couch
06-16-2012, 2:21 PM
You're right, I don't know what I'm talking about, at all.

Schuemann Group Buy
Caspian Group Buy
KT Ordnance Group Buy

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c193/kenspaulding/IMG_20120616_150023.jpg

kable
06-16-2012, 3:17 PM
Kind of a crappy picture isn't it. What are you using a camera phone?

couch
06-16-2012, 6:05 PM
Yeah, I am.

You've officially lost this argument if you're resorting to that.

Good luck with your build. We'll be here if you have any questions. Check the other KTO thread for progress info and camera phone pics.

kable
06-16-2012, 6:30 PM
No I refuse to let you start any more trouble here when you think everyone should think the way you do. That is a sign of a progressive forcing their ideas on others to further his or hers agenda.

couch
06-16-2012, 6:50 PM
I have no agenda. Nor am I the only one saying you are completely overreacting.

I'm being genuine here when I offer you help, so is everyone else. We have done this before, many times. Its obvious this is new to you. If you don't want to listen that is fine, but please, if you are going to bad mouth a company and claim them to be thieves and scanners, have SOMETHING, ANYTHING to back it up. Nothing is in your favor to prove this yet there are hundreds of satisfied KTO customers to say otherwise.

kable
06-16-2012, 7:38 PM
You just cant let it go can you. Is this a obsession with you.

couch
06-17-2012, 2:00 AM
Checkmate.

Looking forward to seeing everyone's builds!

jm13690
06-18-2012, 5:05 PM
Checkmate.

Looking forward to seeing everyone's builds!

Im looking forward to this happening again.

vmwerks
06-21-2012, 3:45 PM
kable - calm down if it'll get you to go away I'll pay for your frames. You are not helping...

kable
06-21-2012, 6:24 PM
The funny thing about you guys is you cant finish the gun anyway. You have to find someone who knows what they are doing to do it for you. And then it just sits there and collects dust.

couch
06-21-2012, 7:17 PM
Tell that to my 1911's and AR's that I've machined myself on my own CNC & Manual mills & lathes and the hundreds of satisfied owners of the tools I make for firearms as well.

Example of one of the 1911's and said titanium tools that I machined MYSELF on MY OWN machines.

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c193/kenspaulding/NME-1911.jpg

Again, I'm offering you assistance on your build because I am experienced in this. Not trying to fight with you still.

kable
06-21-2012, 8:24 PM
I rebuild equipment pumps turbines valves control valves. I weld machine whatever need to be done until the summer. Then I operate boilers 3 months out of the year. Gun machining is new to me but what the hell. I am not building the guns to use just a winter project for the experience. I see I will have to make the jig to cut the rails . You don't need a cnc to do the work either. I can see it would be a waste of time for just a few operations that are required on a 60% frame. Now if you were making a complete frame then it would be important. But a few holes and the rails cut with a barrel seat and a ramp It cant be done in one operation so cnc is not worth the trouble. I think people have the wrong idea what cnc is all about.It's for doing allot of parts at one time that need to be machined the same. Or a part that requires a complicated set of operations.

couch
06-21-2012, 8:38 PM
Fully aware of that. I finished my 1911's on my manual mill because the operations are simple, just time consuming setups. I mill my AR's on the CNC since there are contours and a bit of hogging out that I can do with an easy setup and short program on my cnc.

Take a walk outside at night and look up at the sky. You may are some satellites. I, just like a few others on here, have built those things. I've worked in aerospace for many years. Currently making molds for protective packaging designing, programming and machining cushions for that very computer or phone you keep posting on.

Let's not turn this into a pissing contest and flex our shafts, alright? Just let it he know that we are machinists, and/or have the machines and knowledge to make thesefirearms which is why we are here. You have no idea how many rounds I out thru mine or any of that so don't claim to shoot more than me or anyone else, because that's not what's important here. I don't build safe queens, I make and build guns and tools and I use them hard, that's all that matters. We are here to HELP eachother, not one up others so drop the attitude.

kable
06-21-2012, 9:03 PM
The only thing I see on that web site is bottle openers.Is that all you do.Your the one with the problem. Get a life you can't intimidate me. All you sell is bottle openers. What a phoney.

gatesbox
06-21-2012, 9:32 PM
This banter needs to continue offline, via PM, or not at all... We need to keep this to on topic for updates on the group buy. Im sorry that we don't have frames yet. But this is very much out of our hands until the frames arrive. Then I'll get them sent out priority mail ASAP.

couch
06-22-2012, 1:30 AM
Sorry gates. Completely agree. Taking it to PM.

simpsons730
06-22-2012, 5:04 AM
I was originally going to withhold updates until everybody promised to take their personal grievances with one another to PM's in order to prevent the ensuing drama that has come with the last two updates. But seeing as how gatesbox has already done that and since I am responsible for providing updates on my group buy:

The frames arrived back from heat treating on Wednesday. However, KTO currently has his tooling set up for another project and it would not be practical to switch it all out to do our frames then resume his other project. Since most people seem to have machining knowledge (and I'm assuming most people buying incomplete frames have a general idea), I hope we can all be understanding here and deem that it is reasonable for KTO to not commence work on our frames immediately after receiving them from heat treating. He anticipates that the current project will take one week and the 1911's will take two. Rick is currently working overtime so the timeline may be shortened and based upon the sense that I get from the wording of his emails, I can assure everybody that our group buy has not been put on the back burner.

Again, I urge everyone to stay on topic and only post regarding the group buy.

edit: Sorry if any of that came off as snaky. Had to type fast, but wanted to get the update in.



TL;DR: THREE MORE WEEKS!

kable
07-04-2012, 5:24 AM
Simpsons how about a update on progress. Since we have been delayed 2 times already.

simpsons730
07-06-2012, 5:23 PM
Nothing new to share. Planning on getting an update at the end of next week though.

kable
07-06-2012, 5:44 PM
They are suppose to be finished before next Friday. So you lied about the three weeks?

couch
07-06-2012, 7:13 PM
So wait until next Friday and STFU until then.

The manufacturing of these is out of the hands of the organizers. DO NOT bash the ones putting this group buy on for you and others participating. They have no control of the schedule, and you apparently have no control of yourself.

If you are unhappy with the organizers, PM them, quit bringing this bull**** to this thread. We have had enough.

kable
07-06-2012, 7:30 PM
Have it your way. Seven day and counting. Go back to your Sherline machine shop.

couch
07-06-2012, 8:47 PM
Join Date: March 2012

kable
07-07-2012, 4:42 AM
Simpson I want 500.00 for each gun frame. My money with interest. Six days and counting.That if you want to buy them back

simpsons730
07-07-2012, 6:27 AM
Kable. I would rather settle this via PM, but I somewhat agree with your last PM that settling the issue in the thread would leave no room for doubt (i.e. "Hey! That's not what we agreed on").
I am a logical, fair person and have offered you a full refund as well as to cover all PayPal/MO fees. However, I am not quite sure I can agree with your demands. You paid $250/frame and now want 200% of their value back. What sort of interest rate are you basing your calculations off of? Also I would like to point out that when I have returned merchandise at retail stores in the past, I was refunded my money but never with interest. If you have precedent of such a case occurring, I would be willing to look into it.

kable
07-07-2012, 6:52 AM
You have to remember that I paid up front for someone to make me the frames . I took a chance with my money so the machinist could turn a profit without investing his own money. I made no deal with you to sell them back. I to want to make a profit for my time and money used. You certainly can see my point. The money at this point is a loan until the frames are delivered. Now the value of the frames have gone up due to interest. You cant blame me since you are planing to do the same thing. This is a capitalist country the last time I looked.

kable
07-07-2012, 7:11 AM
By the way Simpson your math is wrong . It is 100% more than i paid.You need to brush up on your math.

goober
07-07-2012, 8:19 AM
@kable-
you clearly do not understand how things work in these GBs. simpsons730 has made an entirely fair offer.
you are entitled to nothing more than the exact amount you paid, including fees.
the same would be true if you ordered something online and never received it. no company in their right mind would pay you interest. to even ask for it at all is insulting to say the least. and 100%? what planet are you from where you think that would be acceptable?

so here's the deal: either accept simpsons730's offer to give you a full refund, and once received, refrain from posting in this GB thread, or we'll need to get a moderator involved. you don't want that to happen.

kable
07-07-2012, 9:04 AM
This is a free country take the offer or leave it. He doesn't have to take it. He plans on making a profit form it and so do I. This not a refund I am asking for .Since I am giving this offer to anyone who wants to purchase the frames from me.They are up for sale at 500.00 a piece.

goober
07-07-2012, 9:18 AM
I'm sorry, I misunderstood. I was under the impression that simpsons730 offered you a refund and you were demanding 100% interest.
Please read the Marketplace Rules (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/forumdisplay.php?f=93).
While it may be acceptable for you to announce your intent to sell your frame(s)in this thread, you really need to start your own thread to handle the sale or take it to PM, unless the thread owner and group buy manager (simpsons730) agrees to have you conduct your sale here.
Good luck.

simpsons730
07-07-2012, 12:06 PM
kable and goober: Good. I'm glad that issue has been settled.

all members of the group buy: I would like to dispel any possible miscommunication that I am profiting from this group buy. Every dollar collected from all members went directly towards either the frames themselves or their shipping. This fact can be corroborated by gatesbox who performed the final transaction to KTO per kable's request. I have in fact lost money since a couple PayPal's came through without the 3% fee being factored in on the sender's end, which I half expected would happen when taking on the hosting of this GB. Therefore, I am by no means complaining because if fifteen dollars and change gets another two handguns into a Californian's hands, then that's a donation I'm willing to make.

gatesbox
07-08-2012, 11:30 AM
Ok, time to chime in. First off thanks to Simpson for doing a bang up job on arranging a relative small quantity group buy.

Also thanks to couch for understanding the need to try and keep things civil. And I have already expressed my understanding of Kable's frustration.

To clarify: we have gone through extraordinary efforts to help Assuage Kable's concerns. Because I had a bit more history and am an easy to find public figure I agreed to take Kable's payment and indeed received all the collected funds down to the last penny. I have $100 dollars remaining for shipping which will likely go out priority flat rate. If I am short I will cover it. If there is a surplus we will refund based on per frame collected. No one will profit for organizing the buy. There were no guarantees or warranties expressed by the organizers, we are all in the same boat.

Kable: you have a very simple choice. Wait it out or we will make arrangements to refund your money. We will not broker your sale for you or pay any interest. Period.

Please send me a PM if you want a refund. Otherwise I don't see any reason to reply to any other concerns you have.

Thank you all gentlemen.

kable
07-14-2012, 6:23 AM
Simpson I do believe you were going to have a update for us?

simpsons730
07-15-2012, 2:06 AM
"In the machine for final machining."
-KTO

simpsons730
07-19-2012, 7:33 AM
FRAMES. ARE. DONE.

couch
07-19-2012, 8:47 AM
Motivation!

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c193/kenspaulding/IMG_20120701_191006.jpg
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c193/kenspaulding/IMG_20120701_191102.jpg
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c193/kenspaulding/IMG_20120702_085800.jpg
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c193/kenspaulding/IMG_20120716_192747.jpg

gatesbox
07-19-2012, 12:57 PM
I will be on vacation next week. I will have someone monitor my mail etc. i was worried that Murphy's law would result in the frames being done while away. I will get them out ASAP. Will be back on the 29th.

gatesbox
07-19-2012, 12:59 PM
Couch I like that zero radius slide where did it come from?

couch
07-19-2012, 1:10 PM
Gates, the slide is a custom Caspian.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=590647

simpsons730
07-28-2012, 8:15 AM
Everyone's address is now confirmed either by initial on the spreadsheet or via pm.

KTO ran into some unexpected personal things (He didn't specify. I didn't push it.) so the shipping of the frames has been pushed back a week and in time for gatesbox to return from vacation.

kable
08-05-2012, 8:12 AM
Now that everyone is off vacation and a week has gone buy so where are the frames.

gatesbox
08-06-2012, 12:47 PM
I don't care to discuss this further but just as a measure of CYA I want to post publicly that today kable backed out of the group buy and was reimbursed via PayPal. No need for comment but I want to be transparent about this straight refund, and note that it has been completed.


Sent to:
michael xxxxxx (The recipient of this payment is Unverified)
Email:
digxxxx@xxxxxxxxxxx.net
Amount sent:
-$500.00 USD
Fee amount:
$0.00 USD
Net amount:
-$500.00 USD

Simpson may be contacted if you have an interest in the two frames. The cost will remain the same as for other GB participants. I believe we have takers for both but speak up if you want to be in line.

\story

bmacpolo
08-07-2012, 3:39 PM
Have the frames shipped.

Thanks

simpsons730
08-07-2012, 4:41 PM
Frames have shipped!

Feel free to track them yourselves:
https://tools.usps.com/go/TrackConfirmAction.action?tLabels=0310%200480%2000 03%205579%205725%2C%200310%200480%200003%205579%20 5718

Also, as gatesbox explained, there are two extra frames for anyone who would like another. Please let me know.

gatesbox
08-07-2012, 6:50 PM
Assuming these arrive as estimated tomorrow, I'll pick up some flat rate boxes and do the shipping on Thursday! I'll do it online so we can get the free tracking.

simpsons730
08-07-2012, 7:28 PM
One of the two extra frames has been accounted for by member Ak714 pending funds.

gatesbox
08-08-2012, 2:04 PM
Ok, they arrived today, and being the busy beaver that I am, I sent them off to our remaining participants today. I'll sit down and send you all confirmation info for tracking later. They went out in the priority flat rate boxes that they came in so if you ordered 1 or 2 they will come individually, our one order for three frames was shipped in a medium flat rate box. Keep an eye on the mailbox! They were insured for $250 each.....

Happy Building!

gatesbox
08-08-2012, 4:59 PM
Check your in-boxes, all the original participants have frames on the way to their doorsteps. For privacy, details about tracking have been sent via pm. AK714 will have his in the mail tomorrow!

simpsons730
08-08-2012, 10:53 PM
Big thumbs up to gatesbox for the ridiculous turn around time!

There is ONE more frame left for anyone interested in another.

Cannon-Arms
08-08-2012, 11:46 PM
Big thumbs up to gatesbox for the ridiculous turn around time!

There is ONE more frame left for anyone interested in another.


pm sent

bmacpolo
08-09-2012, 7:15 AM
Thanks so much for all the help! I can't wait!

:kilt:

tdaughg
08-09-2012, 6:11 PM
got my 3 frames today and everything looks good. thanks for all your hard work organizing this whole thing.

Travis H.

Ak714
08-15-2012, 4:47 PM
Anyone in orange county offering milling/mill time service?

couch
08-15-2012, 11:28 PM
I will be in a few weeks. Moving into a new shop space right now so my machines are down for a bit.